Edmunds…back to back good games. Facts. (Update: Another good game)

[Matt_In_NH]

Does "fact" mean the same thing as "opinion"?

[Mr. WEO]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Oh, and as far as your 5 years comment…he broke out a long time ago, his detractors refuse to admit he isn’t as bad as they exaggerate him to be.  

 

In your own words, I rest my case...

[Big Turk]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Edmunds has played well the first two weeks. He still doesn't pop for me in the way that players like Milano or Poyer do from time to time, but he's been more consistent and is doing his 1/11 in the defense better than ever. With the talent around him and the elite defensive coaching, that is good enough. Unfortunately for him we paid other players while waiting for him to take that next step. If we could somehow get him on a 3-4 year deal with Milano's AAV I would take that right now. I fear he is going to get offered a monster contract in FA and we are at the point in our life cycle as a team where we will have to let those kinds of players walk. If he loves it here and gives us a hometown discount, great. If not, I don't begrudge him for making his money while he can and I wish him well.

 

 

His value for other teams is far, far higher than it is or our team...that's just how it is...

 

Other teams are DYING to find someone with his length, athleticism and ability to help compress windows in the middle of the field and get deep. On top of that he is still a young player and they likely feel he can continue to get better and grow.  He is a MAJOR reason why we have had the best pass D in the NFL over the last several years. We just focus on his negatives rather than that.  Other teams are allowing 100+ yards more a game passing on average than we do, they would LOVE to put him in the middle of their defense and have him help drop that number and will pay a LOT more than we will for that to happen.

 

I think many Bills fans will be absolutely shocked at the contract he gets from someone.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Big Turk

[HoofHearted]

15 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

@HoofHeartedcan confirm but I'm pretty sure that's a result of base nickel. Edmunds and Milano both 2gap and the nickel plays the 9hole playside w/the weakside safety plays the other 9

Nah. Base 4-2-5 principles is a 1 gap scheme. Tennessee was running Duo against our 4-2 box. Looks like we were running man coverage to the two receiver side and Cloud coverage to the Tight End/Wing. Duo uses the same blocking rules as Zone - covered to uncovered to backside backer. Basically if you're covered block the guy covering you, if you are uncovered combo the guy to your play side, if the combo overtakes then the initial covered will work up to second level defender (backers). The only movement on the defensive line was from Phillips who slanted from a 3 to a 1 post snap which had both defensive tackles clog A Gaps. It looks like they are back fitting the backers in order to allow Poyer to be a coverage player and not have a run fit responsibility to the Tight End/Wing side while also allowing for Taron Johnson to be an unblocked B gap fitter he was just late to fold.

 

Here is the blocking scheme:

 

Here's how we fit it:

[FireChans]

37 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I was hyping one drive, where he made three straight plays to force a 3 and out, I was barely in the shout box.  
 

And why does a player in his final year of his contract (who is in line for a significant deal) on a team with multiple personnel decisions looming have a lot to prove?  Do you really not know the answer to that question?  We don’t exactly have a ton of cap space, every contract we sign will have extra scrutiny from this point on.  
 

Oliver has a lot to prove too.  Oliver isn’t a slam dunk give him the bag on his next contract either.  We don’t have the cap space to just automatically re-up every player based on what their market value will be.  
 

And while Edmunds has been valuable here, had some success, made pro bowls, been the captain of the defense…he still had some areas he needed to improve on before we could even consider resigning him based on what the expected market range for him will be.  Everyone knows that, whether they are positive or negative on him.  No one is delusional on him and thinks he had nothing to prove.  
 

Oliver is in the same boat.  The only difference with Oliver is he started showing improvement in areas he needed to improve on last year.  But he still hasn’t for sure locked down his next contract here and his continued improvement will need to be seen this year as well.  And his first game against Rams sure looked like he is headed that way.  But again, he is going to have to have a good season if they are going to pay him what the market will likely be for him.  And I think Oliver will do just that, but it still has to happen.

 

Again…I find it interesting people felt the need to take exception to a thread giving praise to a player you deserved it for improving his play noticeably to start the season.  Especially one who plays a significant role for this team.  
 

Oh, and as far as your 5 years comment…he broke out a long time ago, his detractors refuse to admit he isn’t as bad as they exaggerate him to be.  Edmunds should have had several threads last year for example praising his play in a game, but instead his detractors posted more negative bias threads to continue their whipping boy agenda.  So, this isn’t a player finally showing promise, he’s a multiple pro bowl player who is 5th in the NFL in tackles since entering the league who has been the captain of one of the top ranked defenses.  Yes he had some areas of weakness he still needed to improve, but he was not minutely close to as bad as people portray here.  

I’m sorry but I completely disagree. Oliver has played at a much higher level for longer and much more consistently than Edmunds.

 

In my mind, and I suspect Beane and McD’s mind, Oliver is infinitely closer to getting “locked up” than Edmunds.

 

If they were both FA’s at the same time, the Bills would prioritize Oliver. 

[Alphadawg7]

33 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I’m sorry but I completely disagree. Oliver has played at a much higher level for longer and much more consistently than Edmunds.

 

In my mind, and I suspect Beane and McD’s mind, Oliver is infinitely closer to getting “locked up” than Edmunds.

 

If they were both FA’s at the same time, the Bills would prioritize Oliver. 

I don’t disagree with Oliver being higher priority at the moment and closer to getting that deal.  Like I said, Oliver started turning the corner last year of improved play.  But…he is not a lock for an extension based on what the expectation of what his price tag will be.  He still will need to keep playing well and impacting the game this season if they are going to hang him a big bag this off-season.  

 

And I said I do expect that to happen, but he doesn’t have enough time established at that level to play to just default they will pay him big money.  And another factor to not over look is how well Phillips and the other DTs are playing.  
 

So I think maybe you misunderstood or misread my point.  Was never doubting Oliver, I fully believe he will keep this up.  But if you think he has already 100% earned that contract regardless of how he plays this year, then I think that is jumping the gun.  If he has meh season, then he will likely enter the last year of his deal just like Edmunds without an extension yet and see what he does the year after.
 

But again, I have full confidence Oliver will have a great season personally and fully expect to extend Oliver this offseason.  

Edited September 21, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[Rochesterfan]

20 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Likely, his assignment was both gaps. That's the general rule of our scheme and the pressure it puts on Edmunds. Cover1 did a really good analysis of it last year.

 

Again, usually an Edmunds detractor here, and I hate seeing plays like that as well. But from what has been previously outlined, and given the way he played that down, it is very likely he had responsibility for both gaps, and had to play the inside first.

 

Not only that, but if you watch the DL - AJ goes upfield outside and the other DT and DE both were sliding to the right.  I think it was a designed slide right - giving Edmunds the inside gap, but the DT got stoned by the guard and it opened a hole where the DT should of been.

 

You would love to see Edmunds then forgo his gap and fill the opening, but that is not Tremaine - he does his 1/11th and is right where he should be because McD teaches do your responsibilities and allow others to do their responsibility.  If Edmunds hits outside and the DT fights through - suddenly you leave a gap in the middle.

 

Without benefit of knowing the call - I do not blame Edmunds and to go a step further - The DT got moved backwards into Edmunds and that limited his flow once he was sure his area was secure.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[HoofHearted]

15 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Not only that, but if you watch the DL - Groot goes upfield outside and the other DT and DE both were sliding to the right.  I think it was a designed slide right - giving Edmunds the inside gap, but the DT got stoned by the guard and it opened a hole where the DT should of been.

 

You would love to see Edmunds then forgo his gap and fill the opening, but that is not Tremaine - he does his 1/11th and is right where he should be because McD teaches do your responsibilities and allow others to do their responsibility.  If Edmunds hits outside and the DT fights through - suddenly you leave a gap in the middle.

 

Without benefit of knowing the call - I do not blame Edmunds and to go a step further - The DT got moved backwards into Edmunds and that limited his flow once he was sure his area was secure.

 

 

Duo is designed to hit strongside A gap. If Edmunds vacated his gap responsibility to fit backside B gap where it hit everyone would be pissed he vacated his gap. The stunt from Phillips and the initial fit from Edmunds is what forced the ball to cutback backside B. That play was on Taron, not Edmunds.

Edited September 21, 2022 by HoofHearted

[Brand J]

13 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Duo is designed to hit strongside A gap. If Edmunds vacated his gap responsibility to fit backside B gap where it hit everyone would be pissed he vacated his gap. The stunt from Phillips and the initial fit from Edmunds is what forced the ball to cutback backside B. That play was on Taron, not Edmunds.

The only way it was possible for Taron to get there is if he had zero responsibility from the WR lined up across him and immediately blitzed from the slot. Even then I’m not 100% sold Taron Johnson stops Derrick Henry. (1:50 mark)

[HoofHearted]

Just now, JayBaller10 said:

The only way it was possible for Taron to get there is if he had zero responsibility from the WR lined up across him and immediately blitzed from the slot. Even then I’m not 100% sold Taron Johnson stops Derrick Henry. (1:50 mark)

That's exactly right - he had no responsibility for that receiver. They were disguising their front - showing a 4-2 box when really they were playing 4-3 principles.

[Brand J]

3 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

That's exactly right - he had no responsibility for that receiver. They were disguising their front - showing a 4-2 box when really they were playing 4-3 principles.

Then I have no idea why Taron didn’t immediately crash down. The bigger fault is rolling 5 DBs out there against that heavy package. Get some more beef on the DL, or more than two LBers on the field. 

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Then I have no idea why Taron didn’t immediately crash down. The bigger fault is rolling 5 DBs out there against that heavy package. Get some more beef on the DL, or more than two LBers on the field. 

Trying to hold the disguise as long as possible. Epenesa did him no favors either allowing that B gap to widen. Margin for error is next to nothing down there.

[BullBuchanan]

22 hours ago, Orlando Tim said:

Dude your gonna have a heart attack when he signs a top 5 LB contract this off-season.

Oh, I don't doubt it. His contract numbers don't mean much though. Trash players get paid all the time.

22 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Please enlighten us all-if it’s 35, stretch out a little, give us the first 40 that are better than him 

Here are 32. You'll have to live with that.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-linebacker-rankings-and-tiers-monson-2022

[Alphadawg7]

23 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Oh, I don't doubt it. His contract numbers don't mean much though. Trash players get paid all the time.

Here are 32. You'll have to live with that.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-linebacker-rankings-and-tiers-monson-2022

 

Lol, you do realize PFF doesn't even have his stats added in from the second game right?  It shows him with 10 tackles, he had 10 tackles in just the Rams game.  So yeah, your list is wrong.  Not to mention, its not really a 1-32 ranking, its some ranking (again off incomplete data) and then some smaller group rankings with tiers where they list the first few only in that alleged tier.  But again, all off incorrect data.  

 

Poster asked you to list 35 guys better than him...you couldn't, found an inaccurate data list, didn't check it...then posted it.  If you are going to claim X number are better than him, then you better be able cite every single person YOU are ranking ahead of him.  Otherwise you're just BS'ing a bunch of nonsense.  

Edited September 22, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[Rigotz]

I hope Tremaine Edmunds has an unbelievable season.

 

Then, I hope we Franchise tag him and trade him for a 2nd-3rd round pick.

Or, let him walk and hope he gets top 3 money so we get a 3rd round compensatory pick.

[BillsFan130]

I think the reason we have bashed him, is because he simply hasn't played well the last two years in a lot of our minds.

 

I am not an Edmunds fan, but I think he has played well the first two weeks.

 

It's not like us fans "hate him".  It's just we wanna see more and I don't think it's that unreasonable to say that

 

There is a reason why the Bills haven't extended him yet while other guys drafted after him are getting extensions. They clearly also want to see more. (Just like us fans)

 

So let's hope he can keep Up this good play

 

Lets just try not to turn this into, "I'm right vs your wrong" and polarize Edmunds even more.

 

At the end of the day we all want to see Edmunds succeed.

[BullBuchanan]

17 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Lol, you do realize PFF doesn't even have his stats added in from the second game right?  It shows him with 10 tackles, he had 10 tackles in just the Rams game.  So yeah, your list is wrong.  Not to mention, its not really a 1-32 ranking, its some ranking (again off incomplete data) and then some smaller group rankings with tiers where they list the first few only in that alleged tier.  But again, all off incorrect data.  

 

Poster asked you to list 35 guys better than him...you couldn't, found an inaccurate data list, didn't check it...then posted it.  If you are going to claim X number are better than him, then you better be able cite every single person YOU are ranking ahead of him.  Otherwise you're just BS'ing a bunch of nonsense.  

What are you talking about? This list is dated May 24, 2022.

Start over.

[BullBuchanan]

Because I'm a glutton for punishment: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/top-32-nfl-linebackers-2022/

Edmunds was a hot top-20 guy for folks that liked his athleticism and were willing to write 2020 off as an anomaly, and then he followed it up with an equally terrible 2021.

I'm not going to erase 4 seasons of gross underachievement because of 2 games where our entire defense demolished the other team. I don't even care if he balls out all year. It's too late. Let him be this year's Albert Haynesworth.

Edited September 22, 2022 by BullBuchanan

[3rdand12]

19 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Because I'm a glutton for punishment: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/top-32-nfl-linebackers-2022/

Edmunds was a hot top-20 guy for folks that liked his athleticism and were willing to write 2020 off as an anomaly, and then he followed it up with an equally terrible 2021.

I'm not going to erase 4 seasons of gross underachievement because of 2 games where our entire defense demolished the other team. I don't even care if he balls out all year. It's too late. Let him be this year's Albert Haynesworth.

harsh
 But reasonably so
McD still love him so much.
 keeping hope alive he just gets beasty and starts destroying RB coming out of the back field and fools who try shallow crossers in front of him.

 Just let our DBs know he is going to play head down football and stand clear while he comes downhill

😋
 

[PrimeTime101]

This is what i am talking about concerning defensive line playing the gaps properly. Pre Von... this play never happens.

 

The Von Miller Effect

[Royale with Cheese]

Will this Edmunds thread reach the same amount of pages as the Araiza thread?

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Will this Edmunds thread reach the same amount of pages as the Araiza thread?

what are the odds +/- pages? this seems to be a fun bet to make? you game?

[Royale with Cheese]

7 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

what are the odds +/- pages? this seems to be a fun bet to make? you game?

Loser has to get a crayfish clamp on his nipple?

[eball]

I count at least three “splash” plays from Monday night: sack of Tannehill, TFL on Henry, and the outstanding deflection that led to Poyer’s INT.

 

[John from Riverside]

9 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

Because I'm a glutton for punishment: https://www.profootballnetwork.com/top-32-nfl-linebackers-2022/

Edmunds was a hot top-20 guy for folks that liked his athleticism and were willing to write 2020 off as an anomaly, and then he followed it up with an equally terrible 2021.

I'm not going to erase 4 seasons of gross underachievement because of 2 games where our entire defense demolished the other team. I don't even care if he balls out all year. It's too late. Let him be this year's Albert Haynesworth.

Well there better be another player available that does what McDermott wants him to do in this defense if that is the case what’s your suggestion

[LeGOATski]

4 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Well there better be another player available that does what McDermott wants him to do in this defense if that is the case what’s your suggestion

A good LB with Edmunds' traits will only be available in the 1st or 2nd rd, I imagine. He'd need to be the pick at 32.

 

If that's what the Bills want, I'm not against it, but it will need to be that early pick.

7 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Will this Edmunds thread reach the same amount of pages as the Araiza thread?

that thread is at 299 pages.

 

There's no way. No ***** way. You're crazy man, crazy.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

14 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

A good LB with Edmunds' traits will only be available in the 1st or 2nd rd, I imagine. He'd need to be the pick at 32.

 

If that's what the Bills want, I'm not against it, but it will need to be that early pick.

that thread is at 299 pages.

 

There's no way. No ***** way. You're crazy man, crazy.

 

Yeah but Edmunds will be here the entire season.  Any missed tackle, wrong gap filled is at least 75 pages worth.

[LeGOATski]

4 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Yeah but Edmunds will be here the entire season.  Any missed tackle, wrong gap filled is at least 75 pages worth.

Probably.

 

Edmunds getting a new contract mid-season would be 750 pages worth.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, eball said:

I count at least three “splash” plays from Monday night: sack of Tannehill, TFL on Henry, and the outstanding deflection that led to Poyer’s INT.

 

 

He actually had 2 tackles for loss as well as the sack and the pass defense that you mention. That matches the best "splash play" line of his career thus far which came in the Seahawks game of 2020. 

 

As I said earlier, there is a strong argument that the last 6 Quarters he has played have been the most consistent consecutive quarters of high level football in his career. If Tremaine keeps playing like this the Bills will absolutely find a way to extend him. I am convinced that them letting him play on the option was a signal of "look Tremaine we like you but we need to see more consistency from you - if you want to stay here you gotta go out there and earn it." 

 

So far, so good. 

[Royale with Cheese]

57 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

Probably.

 

Edmunds getting a new contract mid-season would be 750 pages worth.

It would shut this board down and WGR would have to reopen the whiner line.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Probably.

 

Edmunds getting a new contract mid-season would be 750 pages worth.

 

It would crash the board.

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

It would shut this board down and WGR would have to reopen the whiner line.

 

Ha! Yep.

[Royale with Cheese]

10 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

This is what i am talking about concerning defensive line playing the gaps properly. Pre Von... this play never happens.

 

The Von Miller Effect

 

I hope Von plays all 6 years in his contract.

[Einstein]

I never thought Edmunds was bad. Just underwhelming. A little above average. Not that special.

 

Nothing through 2 weeks has changed that.

[DrDawkinstein]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He actually had 2 tackles for loss as well as the sack and the pass defense that you mention. That matches the best "splash play" line of his career thus far which came in the Seahawks game of 2020. 

 

As I said earlier, there is a strong argument that the last 6 Quarters he has played have been the most consistent consecutive quarters of high level football in his career. If Tremaine keeps playing like this the Bills will absolutely find a way to extend him. I am convinced that them letting him play on the option was a signal of "look Tremaine we like you but we need to see more consistency from you - if you want to stay here you gotta go out there and earn it." 

 

So far, so good. 

 

My main criticism of Edmunds in the past has been his lack of play-making in the middle. No TFLs, tipped passes, INTs, etc. And when compared to his counterpart, Luke Kuechly was such a playmaker it made him look even worse. I've always been waiting for him to look anything like Kuechly.

 

In separate conversations about McD and his DL rotation, it was noted that he rotated heavily in Carolina as well, UNTIL he had better DLinemen and then the rotation rate dropped.

 

As I look back, it would seem the improved DL coincided with Kuechly's addition and performance.

 

Maybe what we've been waiting for is the DL to get to the level that McD's Defense requires, in order to free up the MLB who has a ridiculous amount of responsibilities in that scheme as well.

[Alphadawg7]

14 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

I think the reason we have bashed him, is because he simply hasn't played well the last two years in a lot of our minds.

 

I am not an Edmunds fan, but I think he has played well the first two weeks.

 

It's not like us fans "hate him".  It's just we wanna see more and I don't think it's that unreasonable to say that

 

There is a reason why the Bills haven't extended him yet while other guys drafted after him are getting extensions. They clearly also want to see more. (Just like us fans)

 

So let's hope he can keep Up this good play

 

Lets just try not to turn this into, "I'm right vs your wrong" and polarize Edmunds even more.

 

At the end of the day we all want to see Edmunds succeed.

 

Criticism is fair of any player when its warranted, and Edmunds has had his share of fair criticism.  But, the Edmunds hate has surpassed Whitner levels around here at times to where he would have a good game and the same people would yet again start another thread bashing him.  Edmunds has made 2 pro bowls, 5th in the NFL in tackles since entering the league, the captain of a top ranked defense, constant praise from his teammates, staff, and peers...his play hasn't been so bad that 200 threads need to be started a season committed to trashing him.  

 

He has had things he needed to improve...no doubt.  He hasn't been perfect...no doubt.  But he also has not been a total train wreck like so many people here like to portray.  

 

And now Edmunds contract is a looming decision for this team, so how he plays this year is what it is really going to come down to.  And even though I started this thread, I do NOT think he has automatically earned his next deal.  Based on what the expected market is going to be for him, I think like most people, we need to see more from him and more consistent impact plays before he even becomes a consideration to resign (unless he was to take a team friendly deal that is more affordable than we expect).  And even if he has a great season, still doesn't even mean we can afford to resign him with other deals also looming and a tight cap.  

 

But the only point of this thread was to point out his improved play so far this season, and something to keep an eye on.  As a TSW whipping boy, he earned at least one thread that recognized that his good play on the field has been noticed.  

[BruceVilanch]

5 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Loser has to get a crayfish clamp on his nipple?

That sounds like the winner should get that

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, BruceVilanch said:

That sounds like the winner should get that

 

Sounds like you know how to party.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

My main criticism of Edmunds in the past has been his lack of play-making in the middle. No TFLs, tipped passes, INTs, etc. And when compared to his counterpart, Luke Kuechly was such a playmaker it made him look even worse. I've always been waiting for him to look anything like Kuechly.

 

In separate conversations about McD and his DL rotation, it was noted that he rotated heavily in Carolina as well, UNTIL he had better DLinemen and then the rotation rate dropped.

 

As I look back, it would seem the improved DL coincided with Kuechly's addition and performance.

 

Maybe what we've been waiting for is the DL to get to the level that McD's Defense requires, in order to free up the MLB who has a ridiculous amount of responsibilities in that scheme as well.

 

This is a good post, and I think there is also one more layer to it, and IMHO its been evident on the field this year compared to years past.  Frazier frustratingly used Edmunds more like a safety net or last line of defense out there than an aggressive MLB in the past.  It was like Frazier didn't trust the front 4 to win in the trenches, so he played Edmunds deeper off the ball and relied on his range and athleticism to try and minimize the damage of losing up front.  This is why I have been saying the last couple years, I think the things people hate most about Edmunds is more tied to how Frazier has used him.  

 

This year, its like they turned Edmunds loose and let him play more aggressive.  He feels closer to the ball and all over the field.  And I think that has everything to do with the revamped DL.  The fact they are playing at a much higher level already helps the LB's do their job better, then you add in Frazier seems to trust the front 4 more and allowing Edmunds to play more closer to the action and be more of an aggressor or enforcer out of the MLB spot.  

 

One of the reasons I wanted Frazier to get a HC gig is because I was hoping to see what another DC would do with Edmunds and how he would use him.  But so far, it seems we didn't need a new DC, we just needed a new DL for Frazier to seemingly turn Edmunds loose more.  Its only been 2 weeks though, so we will see if that continues or not.  I just hope Frazier doesn't start to fall back into the soft bend but don't break mentality.  I love seeing this D be aggressive.  

[DrDawkinstein]

18 minutes ago, BruceVilanch said:

That sounds like the winner should get that

 

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Sounds like you know how to party.

 

Winner gets the clamp. Loser has to be the crayfish.

[Royale with Cheese]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Winner gets the clamp. Loser has to be the crayfish.

 

Sounds like both are winners.