Allen's frequent running

[Robert Paulson]

2 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Many of those runs were by choice. A couple of those were good licks... Josh stood up and smiled... EVERY TIME!

 

Its like he needed to be hit...

 

im not worried

we talked about (Its like he needed to be hit...) last night during the game- he goes from sugar high josh to in control after some contact

[ticketssince61]

His running is a valuable part of our offense, but it needs to be used more judiciously and JA has to be more conscious of the situation

 

Up by 3 TD's late in the game no way no matter what

 

Fighting for an extra yard on 3rd or 4th down to get a 1st down - Yes

 

Fighting for an extra yard to make it 2nd and 7 versus 2nd and 9. Just go down and move on to the next play

 

 

[Buffalo716]

16 minutes ago, mannc said:

That's probably true, but when the QB in questions run 10-15 times a game and rarely slides, I think those stats go out the window... 

Those stats are true over 100 years of football

 

In the pocket your stationary getting hit by 300 pound behemoths

 

Outside the pocket you’re getting hit by cornerbacks and safeties, And linebackers that Josh is bigger than

 

he’s not flutie running around… He’s literally the biggest alpha male on the field

 

[UKBillFan]

I don't thinkm anyone has issues with Josh taking off if he can see space, or scrambling if required, or stiff-arming opposition defensive players. But not when we lead by three scores in the fourth quarter.

[mannc]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Those stats are true over 100 years of football

 

In the pocket your stationary getting hit by 300 pound behemoths

 

Outside the pocket you’re getting hit by cornerbacks and safeties, And linebackers that Josh is bigger than

 

he’s not flutie running around… He’s literally the biggest alpha male on the field

 

So was Cam Newton...

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

So was Cam Newton...

Read my post before that where I literally say not every player is the same

 

And I literally say he is not Cam Newton

 

You can’t compare him to Cam because they are not the same

[mannc]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

Read my post before that where I literally say not every player is the same

 

And I literally say he is not Cam Newton

 

You can’t compare him to Cam because they are not the same

By that rationale, the study you cite is useless as well, because “every player is different.”  So which is it?

 

Of course there are a LOT of similarities between Josh and Cam Newton…they may not be identical but the comparison is valid.

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, BIGFOOTspaceman said:

Designed runs for Josh when the Bills are up 3 touchdowns...Hate, hate, HATE IT!  

 

Singletary was averaging 6 freakin' yards per carry and you do designed QB runs and hand off's to Moss.  It's boneheaded.  

Agreed.  Motor has to be the bell cow. He's extremely talented.  Give him 15 -20 carries a game instead of running Josh or Moss/Cook

[Awwufelloff]

Agree 100% it’s not if it’s when he gets injured if they keep running him this much. You draft cooks in 2nd round for a reason. The fumble doesn’t mean anything. Give your most talented players the ball. 

9 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Read my post before that where I literally say not every player is the same

 

And I literally say he is not Cam Newton

 

You can’t compare him to Cam because they are not the same

They’re almost identical in size and strength lol 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Awwufelloff

[BuffaloBaumer]

The problem as I see it is that you can see the defenders TRYING to injure Josh because of how good he is. Him running up by 14 in Q4 is plain stupid. The Super Bowl is theirs to lose and there is no way Buffalo won't get that #1 seed if Allen stays healthy.

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, mannc said:

By that rationale, the study you cite is useless as well, because “every player is different.”  So which is it?

 

Of course there are a LOT of similarities between Josh and Cam Newton…they may not be identical but the comparison is valid.

They are two different points… Sure physically they might look comparable

 

But every single player takes hits differently… Every player recovers at a different rate… And every player trains their body differently

 

But statistically most quarterback get hurt inside the pocket… It doesn’t matter if you’re small big jacked or chubby… You’re getting hit in a worse position by bigger people

 

 

[Udubalum07]

As others have said he calls his own number.

 

He likes the physical aspect of football. It's part of the reason why he is so great, but also needs to do a better job protecting himself. I believe someone said Devin mentioned Josh laughing and smiling after the runs. He loves it! Being a Wyoming grad, and now following him with buffalo, this has always been the case. They tried to get him to slide at Wyoming too. He just hates it.

[Buffalo716]

7 minutes ago, Awwufelloff said:

Agree 100% it’s not if it’s when he gets injured if they keep running him this much. You draft cooks in 2nd round for a reason. The fumble doesn’t mean anything. Give your most talented players the ball. 

They’re almost identical in size and strength lol 

Not every 6 foot 5 240 pound person is equal? 
 

That’s pretty simple

 

Just because cam broke down doesn’t mean Josh will … Most running backs break down before 30

 

Curtis Martin led the league in rushing at 31… Players are different

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

RunJoshRun 

 

take note 📝 people 

 

the 2nd half adjustments Run for it!!!

 

don’t take away one of his Super weapons 

 

[BillStime]

Absolutely NO reason to run Josh whatsoever.... why would we risk injury SO early in the schedule?  Just stop.  

 

 

[mannc]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

They are two different points… Sure physically they might look comparable

 

But every single player takes hits differently… Every player recovers at a different rate… And every player trains their body differently

 

But statistically most quarterback get hurt inside the pocket… It doesn’t matter if you’re small big jacked or chubby… You’re getting hit in a worse position by bigger people

 

 

I don't disagree, but it doesn't mean there is zero risk associated with running outside the pocket, and that risk goes up with each carry.  When a QB turns himself into a running back 10-15 times/game, the risk of injury goes up.  Don't think opposing LBs won't want to give Josh a little extra, and when he runs like that, he loses the protection that comes with being a quarterback in the pocket; he's just another ball carrier.  And of course, Josh is not immune from being hit in the pocket too; it's not an either/or; he's going to take both kinds of hits over the course of a season. 

[UKBillFan]

 

This was queried at the eight minute mark - Sean responded that Josh should not be running in the fourth quarter scenario and, as coaches, they should be doing better.

[blacklabel]

I don't get as concerned as many others do. The dude is 6'5" 250 lbs, he's bigger than all DBs and most LBs. Just listen to some defenders about him. Darius Leonard said he hit the dude with everything he had and he got ran over anyway. Joey Bosa during a game was like "What am I supposed to do, let him run me over? He's f@$#in' huge!" I mean yeah I'd rather he not get walloped by DL as big as he is but that's part of the game and he knows how and when to protect himself. 

 

I also find it kind of odd that nearly every time Josh takes off for a run there has to be chatter about "oh he needs to be careful, he could get hurt, coach won't like that one!" Yet when Lamar Jackson is out there racking up 125 yards on the ground every game everyone's just, "Wow what an amazing player he is, the running is such a big part of his game!" I mean for cripes sake the Ravens redesigned their entire offense because of his running ability. I'm sure they're concerned about injury as well but it seems like you never hear much about that. But noted Monstar Josh Allen trucks over a 5'10" 185 lb DB and it's yappidy yap from 37 talking heads about how he needs to be careful. 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Shula and the Panthers RUINED Cam through overuse and not protecting Cam from himself.

 

No they didn't. Cam sprained his shoulder making a tackle after throwing an interception and the shoulder never healed right. It had nothing to do with his play style. It was a fluke injury.

[Awwufelloff]

46 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

I don't get as concerned as many others do. The dude is 6'5" 250 lbs, he's bigger than all DBs and most LBs. Just listen to some defenders about him. Darius Leonard said he hit the dude with everything he had and he got ran over anyway. Joey Bosa during a game was like "What am I supposed to do, let him run me over? He's f@$#in' huge!" I mean yeah I'd rather he not get walloped by DL as big as he is but that's part of the game and he knows how and when to protect himself. 

 

I also find it kind of odd that nearly every time Josh takes off for a run there has to be chatter about "oh he needs to be careful, he could get hurt, coach won't like that one!" Yet when Lamar Jackson is out there racking up 125 yards on the ground every game everyone's just, "Wow what an amazing player he is, the running is such a big part of his game!" I mean for cripes sake the Ravens redesigned their entire offense because of his running ability. I'm sure they're concerned about injury as well but it seems like you never hear much about that. But noted Monstar Josh Allen trucks over a 5'10" 185 lb DB and it's yappidy yap from 37 talking heads about how he needs to be careful. 

So was Cam Newton. Cam was more athletic then Allen is. I don’t mind Allen scrambling around the pocket, but the designed runs need to stop. Especially when we’re in the lead. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Awwufelloff

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, mannc said:

Same with Cam Newton and now his career is over at 33 years old.

 

Everyone uses him as the example but he did not drop off because he took hits over the course of his career. It was one play that devastated his shoulder, the same kind of play that Baker Mayfield injured his shoulder on last year. Injuries happen when the body experiences a force or impact that it isn't prepared for. Making a tackle does not use the same muscles and ligaments as bracing for a tackle. Allen is built for, trained for, and used to that kind of impact. Over time Allen's raw athleticism will decline with age but that doesn't mean his career will drop off a cliff. He'll be fine.

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by HappyDays

[Buffalo Boy]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

No they didn't. Cam sprained his shoulder making a tackle after throwing an interception and the shoulder never healed right. It had nothing to do with his play style. It was a fluke injury.

Go punch a wall

punch it again next week….. do it for 14 more weeks in a row…..

See how your hand feels at the end of those 16 weeks.

Give it a few months off and then start punching a wall again. 
Do that for 7 years in a row and see how much dexterity you have with the fingers on your punching hand.

Injuries are Cumulative. It isn’t rocket surgery.

It was an absolute sin the way Shula relied on Cam to generate Offense.

[HappyDays]

Just now, Buffalo Boy said:

Go punch a wall

punch it again next week….. do it for 14 more weeks in a row…..

See how your hand feels at the end of those 16 weeks.

Give it a few months off and then start punching a wall again. 
Do that for 7 years in a row and see how much dexterity you have with the fingers on your punching hand.

Injuries are Cumulative. It isn’t rocket surgery.

It was an absolute sin the way Shula relied on Cam to generate Offense.

 

But Cam didn't lose his athleticism or his ability to take hits. He lost his ability to throw the ball at an NFL level because his AC joint was devastated and never healed right. Anyways I don't think Cam ever took the game as seriously as Allen does. It's a lazy comparison IMO.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Go punch a wall

punch it again next week….. do it for 14 more weeks in a row…..

See how your hand feels at the end of those 16 weeks.

Give it a few months off and then start punching a wall again. 
Do that for 7 years in a row and see how much dexterity you have with the fingers on your punching hand.

Injuries are Cumulative. It isn’t rocket surgery.

It was an absolute sin the way Shula relied on Cam to generate Offense.

The NFL also allowed him to get hit in the pocket like crazy for some reason

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

4 hours ago, Success said:

Apologies if there is already a thread on this - I checked and didn't see anything. And was surprised, because I thought this would be a hot topic today.

 

I loved the game last night, and Allen is one of the best players I've seen.  That's not hyperbole. He can do literally everything out there.

 

But he's running too much.  It can't be stated more simply than that.  The Bills can have a long run with JA at QB, but only if he's on the field.  He's such a good passer - I was really hoping the new OC would change our usage of Allen somewhat, and cut down on designed runs and putting him in the thick of things up the middle.

 

I don't think it's sustainable. Thoughts?

I totally agree. At first, I would roll my eyes at the people who said stuff like this, but it is totally concerning now. In Allen 1-2nd seasons, I feel he would run a little to get his head in the game more and set up the pass (if that makes sense?) Now that he is such a dominant thrower he doesn’t need to make reckless plays like that. I feel like even without his running ability Allen would still be a top 5 QB regardless, but that skill really does separate him from everyone else and shows why he’s the best. He can literally do it all. 
 

 

I love that he has that tool in his pocket to use, but it’s simple not sustainable if you want to have a 12+ year QB career. 

Edited September 9, 2022 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[mannc]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Everyone uses him as the example but he did not drop off because he took hits over the course of his career. It was one play that devastated his shoulder, the same kind of play that Baker Mayfield injured his shoulder on last year. Injuries happen when the body experiences a force or impact that it isn't prepared for. Making a tackle does not use the same muscles and ligaments as bracing for a tackle. Allen is built for, trained for, and used to that kind of impacct. Over time Allen's raw athleticism will decline with age but that doesn't mean his career will drop off a cliff. He'll be fine.

 

Look, I hope you’re right.  I love watching Allen run and it’s an important part of the offense. But those are very big guys hitting him and they’re also putting a little extra into it because of who Josh is. There’s a reason running backs don’t last more than three or four years…

[Matt_In_NH]

The run read option thing where he keeps the ball almost everytime and gains 1-3 yards has to go.  The one play a guy had his leg and was just lifting him up and he was in an awkward position...multiple times he was in an awkward position for very little gain.   It needs to stop.   Designed runs when up multiple scores in the 4th quarter has to go.   I expected to see quicker passes and less running with Dorsey, the quicker passes worked great but its just a matter of time before he stays down and much of it is unnecessary.    McDermott seems to want it to stop also.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I totally agree. At first, I would roll my eyes at the people who said stuff like this, but it is totally concerning now. In Allen 1-2nd seasons, I feel he would run a little to get his head in the game more and set up the pass (if that makes sense?) Now that he is such a dominant thrower he doesn’t need to make reckless plays like that. I feel like even without his running ability Allen would still be a top 5 QB regardless, but it really does separate him from everyone else and why he’s the best.
 

I love that he has that tool in his pocket to use, but it’s simple not sustainable if you want to have a 12+ year QB career. 

Those are opinions 

 

There has never been a player of Josh’s physical and mental makeup 

 

he is changing the game 

[Beerball]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Everyone uses him as the example but he did not drop off because he took hits over the course of his career. It was one play that devastated his shoulder, the same kind of play that Baker Mayfield injured his shoulder on last year. Injuries happen when the body experiences a force or impact that it isn't prepared for. Making a tackle does not use the same muscles and ligaments as bracing for a tackle. Allen is built for, trained for, and used to that kind of impacct. Over time Allen's raw athleticism will decline with age but that doesn't mean his career will drop off a cliff. He'll be fine.

 

Damn, it’s good that we have you around to tell us what to think. Whatever would we do without you?

 

Allen needs to knock that crap off.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Not every time he runs around though!  People don't say watch out!  HE's expected to run around, hit, and hopefully avoid injury.

I'd like to see a study that analyzes 1,000 QB scrambles and determines rate of injury for quarterbacks running.

Then compare that to the standard rate of injury for quarterbacks including running and not running plays, and see if it is actually worse.  If so, by how much?

 

I bet it's about the same.

 

 

 

 

This has actually been studied and proven that QBs are more likely to get injured in the pocket than while scrambling. Sacks have the highest rate of injury compared to any other type of QB play. Injuries don't typically happen when you take on contact that you anticipate, they happen when something unexpected happens while you're in an awkward position. As others have pointed out the one time Allen lost time to injury he was making a throw from the pocket and got hit from both sides while his body was in an awkward position. Running into contact that he is bracing for is much safer.

[1997WS6]

3 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Yep. It's Allen being Allen and the OC has no control over that.

 

While I want Allen to be safe, the guy knows what he's doing and his runs get the team fired up. Allen is the leader and he leads by example. I also never thought he was in an awkward position and vulnerable. They were calculated runs. He's not a frail guy, so he can take normal tackles as well as any RB.

Running backs are done at 30 years old.  Brady is still going at 45.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Those are opinions 

 

There has never been a player of Josh’s physical and mental makeup 

 

he is changing the game 

 

Edit: have people not learned from Cam Newton? 
 

 

I don’t know. If things get hit, they wear down. That is fact. Now how much damage can he actually take?

 

I feel like the Bills can go on a solid 10 year historical run where Allen just does it all and lays his body on the line , but I want the guy to go out like Tom Brady in his 40s. I just don’t think that’s possible with the way he Plays 🤷‍♂️

Edited September 9, 2022 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I don’t know. If things get hit, they wear down. That is fact. Now how much damage can he actually take?

 

I feel like the Bills can go on a solid 10 year historical run where Allen just does it all and lays his body on the line , but I want the guy to go out like Tom Brady in his 40s. I just don’t think that’s possible with the way he Plays 🤷‍♂️

Every single quarterback gets hit

 

Big Ben Tom Brady and Brett Favre are the three most sacked quarterback in NFL history

 

All had long careers

 

Josh has the body to withstand it… Guys like Kyler Murray and Lamar Jackson don’t

 

Cam Newton would run head on into a defensive tackle.. Josh will truck a Linebacker or safety… He might stiff arm a defensive tackle, But he’s not putting his head down into him

Edited September 9, 2022 by Buffalo716

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

Look, I hope you’re right.  I love watching Allen run and it’s an important part of the offense. But those are very big guys hitting him and they’re also putting a little extra into it because of who Josh is. There’s a reason running backs don’t last more than three or four years…

 

I agree with those that say he shouldn't be running when the game is in hand. I don't even want him throwing in that situation, just run out the clock and get Allen off the field ASAP. But I don't understand the fans that want us to run him less in general. His legs are part of what make him special. There's risk involved on every play that Allen holds the ball and it isn't actually more likely that he'll get injured while scrambling than while standing in the pocket. So I want him to run as much as he deems necessary to win the game.

[UKBillFan]

1 hour ago, blacklabel said:

I don't get as concerned as many others do. The dude is 6'5" 250 lbs, he's bigger than all DBs and most LBs. Just listen to some defenders about him. Darius Leonard said he hit the dude with everything he had and he got ran over anyway. Joey Bosa during a game was like "What am I supposed to do, let him run me over? He's f@$#in' huge!" I mean yeah I'd rather he not get walloped by DL as big as he is but that's part of the game and he knows how and when to protect himself. 

 

I also find it kind of odd that nearly every time Josh takes off for a run there has to be chatter about "oh he needs to be careful, he could get hurt, coach won't like that one!" Yet when Lamar Jackson is out there racking up 125 yards on the ground every game everyone's just, "Wow what an amazing player he is, the running is such a big part of his game!" I mean for cripes sake the Ravens redesigned their entire offense because of his running ability. I'm sure they're concerned about injury as well but it seems like you never hear much about that. But noted Monstar Josh Allen trucks over a 5'10" 185 lb DB and it's yappidy yap from 37 talking heads about how he needs to be careful. 

 

If Jackson stopped running he'd (potentially) be a mediocre passing quarterback and the Ravens would struggle to make the post season. If Josh stopped running he'd still be an elite passing quaterback and we'd still expect to go far. That's not to say Josh should stop running, just there's a time and a place.

 

Albeit, watching the game back, I don't think there were many issues with Josh's runs yesterday. The one in the third where he got wishboned was hideous, though.

[Buffalo Boy]

16 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But Cam didn't lose his athleticism or his ability to take hits. He lost his ability to throw the ball at an NFL level because his AC joint was devastated and never healed right. Anyways I don't think Cam ever took the game as seriously as Allen does. It's a lazy comparison IMO.

    I agree that Cam didn’t take the mechanics aspect of it anywhere near as seriously as Josh has.

    Lazy comparison ?

     https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/which-quarterback-has-the-most-rushing-touchdowns-in-their-first-4-seasons
 

   Cam had 33 Rushing TDs in his first four years

   Josh is second with 31

   In the recent era the only other comparison MIGHT be L. Jackson but I wouldn’t make it. He isn’t nearly the passer of Cam and he is little compared to Cam and Josh.

   I think they are the only comparable players, existing in their own little niche.

[The Wiz]

I honestly think Allen's juices were flowing last night and just wanted the ball on the RPOs.

 

He averages 6.7 runs per game (both designed and scrambles).

 

For him to run 10 times was a lot for sure but don't think that's going to be a trend. 

[muppy]

21 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

The run read option thing where he keeps the ball almost everytime and gains 1-3 yards has to go.  The one play a guy had his leg and was just lifting him up and he was in an awkward position...multiple times he was in an awkward position for very little gain.   It needs to stop.   Designed runs when up multiple scores in the 4th quarter has to go.   I expected to see quicker passes and less running with Dorsey, the quicker passes worked great but its just a matter of time before he stays down and much of it is unnecessary.    McDermott seems to want it to stop also.

McD will communicate this to #17 in  no uncertain terms. And Josh will reply "Yes Sir". and then do what he does in the heat of battle....HA....*shrugs*...

.. I really think the last thing HE is thinking about is being injured. That is why coaches need to talk to him . He's SMART.  And because I know he is, I expect he will listen to reason.  And Dorsey better not call those plays either. E Gads get a clue mane ! I will blow a basic fuse if they play fast and loose with our MVP candidate QB...Perish the thought!!! No freaking way.

 

m

[ehfeuh57]

that was super dumb, running in the 4th Q when Keenum should have been in

[Chaos]

7 minutes ago, DrDare said:

that was super dumb, running in the 4th Q when Keenum should have been in

Not sure why fans think teams pull starting QBs when teams are winning. Concur with the no running. But they are not sending Keenum very often to take the victory formation.