RD 1, Pick 23: CB Kaiir Elam, Florida

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 5/4/2022 at 10:40 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yep.   

 

And if they actually become a more multiple defense........capable of going back and forth from heavy zone to a lot of press-man usage based on opponent.........then Elam is a premium position pick.

 

If that defensive plan fails and they end up having to stick with what worked well with Levi...........even if Elam plays fine in zone concepts, and it's hard to say if he will because he didn't do it much at Florida...............then it becomes a question of whether they invested a $20M kinda' personnel chip into a guy at a position they could have filled with a journeyman type.

 

The Bills reportedly played man 34% of the defensive snaps last season - 8th in the league. 

Hard to see them adding Elam and playing less.

[The Dean]

56 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Assume you mean "traded up"?

 

Yes, up down around and around. Of course I meant up. Then then again, isn't a lower draft number "down"?

 

🤣

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

58 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Assume you mean "traded up"?

 

 

Just curious, according to whom?  If they play zone, but with on CB man, how is that coded? 

[BarleyNY]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The Bills reportedly played man 34% of the defensive snaps last season - 8th in the league. 

Hard to see them adding Elam and playing less.

They also have used plays where Tre played man coverage and others were in zone.  I think the hope is that they’ll now have a CB2 that can do some of that too.  That’ll give them more flexibility in flipping that scheme as needed.

 

Elam seems very likable.  He’s toolsy.  I watched some game film and he’s certainly got talent.  He’s sticky and aggressive in coverage.  He does not allow much separation by WRs, he tracks the ball well and fights them for it in the air.  He’s got really good speed too.  He should be able to run with most NFL WRs.  A lack of physicality at the LOS and during routes won’t be the issue.  If anything, he’ll have to back off on some of that in the NFL.

 

That brings me to the two main concerns I have with his game. The first is that he’s way too grabby and physical during routes for the NFL.  He was especially grabby at the top of routes.  The concern there is that he either doesn’t have the ability to flip his hips or the reactions/mirroring ability to stay with WRs when they make their moves and he’s grabbing them at that point to slow them down.  The other possibilities are that it was due to his knee injury or that he was just pushing the envelope to get away with what the refs were allowing.  He had 7 penalties for it last year.  He simply can’t do that in the NFL. The other glaring issue was his reluctance to hit and tackle ball carriers.  For as physical as he is with WRs during their routes, he wanted nothing to do with making a tackle - and when he had to, he tried (often unsuccessfully) to arm tackle.  He even had several chances to hit ball carriers already being engaged by tacklers to prevent them from gaining extra yardage and simply pulled up and made no contact.  It’s difficult to think that was because of his knee.  That absolutely has to change.  NFL OCs will test him early and often in that regard.  
 

So there’s a lot to like about Elam as well as some concerns.  He is going to  have excellent coaching so no worries there.  His abilities give him the potential to be a very good NFL CB.  The concerns about his game are the kind that get worked out quickly or derail a career quickly so it shouldn’t take long to know what we’ve got. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by BarleyNY

[Coach Tuesday]

13 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

They also have used plays where Tre played man coverage and others were in zone.  I think the hope is that they’ll now have a CB2 that can do some of that too.  That’ll give them more flexibility in flipping that scheme as needed.

 

Elam seems very likable.  He’s toolsy.  I watched some game film and he’s certainly got talent.  He’s sticky and aggressive in coverage.  He does not allow much separation by WRs, he tracks the ball well and fights them for it in the air.  He’s got really good speed too.  He should be able to run with most NFL WRs.  A lack of physicality at the LOS and during routes won’t be the issue.  If anything, he’ll have to back off on some of that in the NFL.

 

That brings me to the two main concerns I have with his game. The first is that he’s way too grabby and physical during routes for the NFL.  He was especially grabby at the top of routes.  The concern there is that he either doesn’t have the ability to flip his hips or the reactions/mirroring ability to stay with WRs when they make their moves and he’s grabbing them at that point to slow them down.  The other possibilities are that it was due to his knee injury or that he was just pushing the envelope to get away with what the refs were allowing.  He had 7 penalties for it last year.  He simply can’t do that in the NFL. The other glaring issue was his reluctance to hit and tackle ball carriers.  For as physical as he is with WRs during their routes, he wanted nothing to do with making a tackle - and when he had to, he tried (often unsuccessfully) to arm tackle.  He even had several chances to hit ball carriers already being engaged by tacklers to prevent them from gaining extra yardage and simply pulled up and made no contact.  It’s difficult to think that was because of his knee.  That absolutely has to change.  NFL OCs will test him early and often in that regard.  
 

So there’s a lot to like about Elam as well as some concerns.  He is going to  have excellent coaching so no worries there.  His abilities give him the potential to be a very good NFL CB.  The concerns about his game are the kind that get worked out quickly or derail a career quickly so it shouldn’t take long to know why we’ve got. 

Honestly sounds like a slightly more physical version of Tre.  Same strengths and weaknesses.  Tre still tends to arm-tackle ball carriers.

[MrEpsYtown]

9 hours ago, The Dean said:

 

Just curious, according to whom?  If they play zone, but with on CB man, how is that coded? 

 

We play a good amount of 3 sky to trips, which will leave the backside single corner on man against that single receiver. Some 4 man too, which is cover 4 with man principles. Most teams don't just sit in cover three or cover 2. They may be playing a different coverage on different side of the field, especially in corner, nickel and safety blitz situations. 

[BADOLBILZ]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The Bills reportedly played man 34% of the defensive snaps last season - 8th in the league. 

Hard to see them adding Elam and playing less.

 

 

I wouldn't doubt that figure but it's kind of a throw away stat.

 

As Beane said........they wanted to be able to play more press-man.

 

The key to their defense is their ability to disguise coverages........34% some-kinda'-man is still low enough to merely be part of the designed confusion.........especially when you are often playing with enormous leads as the highest point differential team in the NFL.

 

And with moderate exposure they've had great success in the past with press man even...........I remember when Kevin Johnson was here he ranked #1 or close to it in press man success rate.    That certainly wasn't because he was Jalen Ramsey-esque.

 

The disguise improves the success of ALL coverages.........if the pass rush is on time and forces quick throws.

 

But if the rush isn't there,  then it becomes athlete vs athlete in coverage.

 

They drafted Elam, IMO because they want to be able to rely less on disguise and instead be able to matchup better when they run into that combination of elite QB/elite receiving talent but also an offense that doesn't let them get to the passer in a timely fashion.

 

All of the investment in pass rush and now the "traits" add at CB are basically the Bills trying to create a defense, on paper at least, that doesn't have any inherent vulnerability.

 

Whether that degree of effort/investment is worthwhile at the expense of offensive investment is questionable.   

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

51 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I wouldn't doubt that figure but it's kind of a throw away stat.

 

As Beane said........they wanted to be able to play more press-man.

 

The key to their defense is their ability to disguise coverages........34% some-kinda'-man is still low enough to merely be part of the designed confusion.........especially when you are often playing with enormous leads as the highest point differential team in the NFL.

 

And with moderate exposure they've had great success in the past with press man even...........I remember when Kevin Johnson was here he ranked #1 or close to it in press man success rate.    That certainly wasn't because he was Jalen Ramsey-esque.

 

The disguise improves the success of ALL coverages.........if the pass rush is on time and forces quick throws.

 

But if the rush isn't there,  then it becomes athlete vs athlete in coverage.

 

They drafted Elam, IMO because they want to be able to rely less on disguise and instead be able to matchup better when they run into that combination of elite QB/elite receiving talent but also an offense that doesn't let them get to the passer in a timely fashion.

 

All of the investment in pass rush and now the "traits" add at CB are basically the Bills trying to create a defense, on paper at least, that doesn't have any inherent vulnerability.

 

Whether that degree of effort/investment is worthwhile at the expense of offensive investment is questionable.   

100% and take note to what Seatle did to their defense during their Superbowl run. 2 great CB's allowed them to be more dynamic in blitz packages. 

[TPS]

56 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Whether that degree of effort/investment is worthwhile at the expense of offensive investment is questionable.   

 

 

Do you mean O-line, skill players, or just in general?

To this untrained eye, it looks as if they've diversified what the O is capable of offering each week by strengthening the passing attack in the backfield and TE positions, adding Cook and Howard.  WR has a slight difference in the strengths that Crowder and Beasley offer, but, other than that, it's kind of a wash (possibly better with Davis getting more snaps?).  No real upgrades/changes at OL, so wondering if that's what you mean?

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I wouldn't doubt that figure but it's kind of a throw away stat.

 

As Beane said........they wanted to be able to play more press-man.

 

The key to their defense is their ability to disguise coverages........34% some-kinda'-man is still low enough to merely be part of the designed confusion.........especially when you are often playing with enormous leads as the highest point differential team in the NFL.

 

And with moderate exposure they've had great success in the past with press man even...........I remember when Kevin Johnson was here he ranked #1 or close to it in press man success rate.    That certainly wasn't because he was Jalen Ramsey-esque.

 

The disguise improves the success of ALL coverages.........if the pass rush is on time and forces quick throws.

 

But if the rush isn't there,  then it becomes athlete vs athlete in coverage.

 

They drafted Elam, IMO because they want to be able to rely less on disguise and instead be able to matchup better when they run into that combination of elite QB/elite receiving talent but also an offense that doesn't let them get to the passer in a timely fashion.

 

All of the investment in pass rush and now the "traits" add at CB are basically the Bills trying to create a defense, on paper at least, that doesn't have any inherent vulnerability.

 

Whether that degree of effort/investment is worthwhile at the expense of offensive investment is questionable.  

 

FWIW, the person who provided the stat here (I believe they said it was from the Joe Marino Locked on Bills podcast) said it was 8th highest in the league.  I would assume it was higher prior to Tre White's injury and lower afterwards.  The highest man-% team in the league was 40-something IIRC.  I'll see if I can find the post where the guy talked about it, later on.

Anyway the point is, the Bills are thought of as a heavy zone-coverage team but actually do play man on 1 out of 3 snaps and are top-10 in use of man coverage.  I thought that was interesting.

 

Obviously agree with your valid points about "designed confusion" and how the disguise improves the success of all coverage, provided the pass rush gets home.

 

As stated elsewhere, I have no quarrel with the Bills use of a mild trade-up and a late 1st round pick for a CB.   CB do fall into the "high 2nd contract" premium player class as witnessed by the fact Tre currently has the highest cap hit on the Bills and will be 4th next season, after QB, WR, and Edge; the caveat "if he develops as they hope" applies to all first round picks, including QB, WR, Edge and DT.

But I also agree about the possible negative impact from overall lack of offensive investment year after year.  I don't think it matters if we don't spend a 1st on offense this year or last year.  But it matters if the overall investment, in FA & high draft picks, is lower on the offensive side of the ball, and so far it is LOPsided.  I'm especially worried about the line.

 

 

[Doc]

I wouldn’t say that just because the Bills didn’t take a WR at 23, that they didn’t invest in offense. Maybe some are short-term investments, but they’re investments just the same. 

[BillsVet]

13 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

I prefer.....Carnac, The Magnificent. 

 

Gotta live up to the magnificent part first. 

[The Dean]

3 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

We play a good amount of 3 sky to trips, which will leave the backside single corner on man against that single receiver. Some 4 man too, which is cover 4 with man principles. Most teams don't just sit in cover three or cover 2. They may be playing a different coverage on different side of the field, especially in corner, nickel and safety blitz situations. 

 

I understand the combination coverages. I'm asking if they play different coverages on different sides, does that count as "man coverage" in the quoted calculation?  If it doesn't, the number looks to be quite high to me. If it does, it really isn't full man coverage, but rather a hybrid that should count partially in both categories. No?

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, The Dean said:

 

I understand the combination coverages. I'm asking if they play different coverages on different sides, does that count as "man coverage" in the quoted calculation?  If it doesn't, the number looks to be quite high to me. If it does, it really isn't full man coverage, but rather a hybrid that should count partially in both categories. No?

This is a great point.

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, The Dean said:

 

I understand the combination coverages. I'm asking if they play different coverages on different sides, does that count as "man coverage" in the quoted calculation?  If it doesn't, the number looks to be quite high to me. If it does, it really isn't full man coverage, but rather a hybrid that should count partially in both categories. No?

Gotcha! That us a great question. I really wonder if there are times when we are truly straight man to man. I feel like it is mostly combo coverage. 

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

But I also agree about the possible negative impact from overall lack of offensive investment year after year.  I don't think it matters if we don't spend a 1st on offense this year or last year.  But it matters if the overall investment, in FA & high draft picks, is lower on the offensive side of the ball, and so far it is LOPsided.  I'm especially worried about the line.

 

 

This is my single biggest concern as we have not made many significant upgrades to the OL. Adding Saffold, walking everyone back and changing coaches still is not sufficient given how much Allen had to cover up the deficiencies last season. Beane said after the season that we need to provide more protection for Allen but I hope he wasn't talking about the RB and Receivers as "protection". I was hopeful that one of the first 3 picks would go to the OL but that didn't happen. 

There aren't many FA left so I am still hoping there is a trade coming or we will be lucky with some June cuts

[Warcodered]

 

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

Gotta live up to the magnificent part first. 

Already done

[NewEra]

6 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

They also have used plays where Tre played man coverage and others were in zone.  I think the hope is that they’ll now have a CB2 that can do some of that too.  That’ll give them more flexibility in flipping that scheme as needed.

 

Elam seems very likable.  He’s toolsy.  I watched some game film and he’s certainly got talent.  He’s sticky and aggressive in coverage.  He does not allow much separation by WRs, he tracks the ball well and fights them for it in the air.  He’s got really good speed too.  He should be able to run with most NFL WRs.  A lack of physicality at the LOS and during routes won’t be the issue.  If anything, he’ll have to back off on some of that in the NFL.

 

That brings me to the two main concerns I have with his game. The first is that he’s way too grabby and physical during routes for the NFL.  He was especially grabby at the top of routes.  The concern there is that he either doesn’t have the ability to flip his hips or the reactions/mirroring ability to stay with WRs when they make their moves and he’s grabbing them at that point to slow them down.  The other possibilities are that it was due to his knee injury or that he was just pushing the envelope to get away with what the refs were allowing.  He had 7 penalties for it last year.  He simply can’t do that in the NFL. The other glaring issue was his reluctance to hit and tackle ball carriers.  For as physical as he is with WRs during their routes, he wanted nothing to do with making a tackle - and when he had to, he tried (often unsuccessfully) to arm tackle.  He even had several chances to hit ball carriers already being engaged by tacklers to prevent them from gaining extra yardage and simply pulled up and made no contact.  It’s difficult to think that was because of his knee.  That absolutely has to change.  NFL OCs will test him early and often in that regard.  
 

So there’s a lot to like about Elam as well as some concerns.  He is going to  have excellent coaching so no worries there.  His abilities give him the potential to be a very good NFL CB.  The concerns about his game are the kind that get worked out quickly or derail a career quickly so it shouldn’t take long to know what we’ve got. 

And had more than a handful of “no arm tackles” where he just dove into their legs with his shoulders, hoping they’d go down. 

While that definitely scares, I think the coaches will change that.  He’ll be called out and embarrassed. He seems like an alpha and alphas don’t want to be “soft”.  Cj henderson taught him how to be soft and it got him to the league.  Now it’s up to our coaches and Kaiir to make sure he doesn’t play like Henderson in the league.  
 

what scares me most after watching a bunch of tape is his grabby nature.  He did it a LOT.  Called for 7 penalties but probably got away with 30 others.  He reminds me of Carlton Davis with his hands.  He can be a nuisance…..as long as the ref allow him to be

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

And had more than a handful of “no arm tackles” where he just dove into their legs with his shoulders, hoping they’d go down. 

While that definitely scares, I think the coaches will change that.  He’ll be called out and embarrassed. He seems like an alpha and alphas don’t want to be “soft”.  Cj henderson taught him how to be soft and it got him to the league.  Now it’s up to our coaches and Kaiir to make sure he doesn’t play like Henderson in the league.  
 

what scares me most after watching a bunch of tape is his grabby nature.  He did it a LOT.  Called for 7 penalties but probably got away with 30 others.  He reminds me of Carlton Davis with his hands.  He can be a nuisance…..as long as the ref allow him to be

I just think the tackling can be coached......he is willing to stick his face in there

[Shaw66]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I wouldn't doubt that figure but it's kind of a throw away stat.

 

As Beane said........they wanted to be able to play more press-man.

 

The key to their defense is their ability to disguise coverages........34% some-kinda'-man is still low enough to merely be part of the designed confusion.........especially when you are often playing with enormous leads as the highest point differential team in the NFL.

 

And with moderate exposure they've had great success in the past with press man even...........I remember when Kevin Johnson was here he ranked #1 or close to it in press man success rate.    That certainly wasn't because he was Jalen Ramsey-esque.

 

The disguise improves the success of ALL coverages.........if the pass rush is on time and forces quick throws.

 

But if the rush isn't there,  then it becomes athlete vs athlete in coverage.

 

They drafted Elam, IMO because they want to be able to rely less on disguise and instead be able to matchup better when they run into that combination of elite QB/elite receiving talent but also an offense that doesn't let them get to the passer in a timely fashion.

 

All of the investment in pass rush and now the "traits" add at CB are basically the Bills trying to create a defense, on paper at least, that doesn't have any inherent vulnerability.

 

Whether that degree of effort/investment is worthwhile at the expense of offensive investment is questionable.   

 

 

Although I find this post interesting and a good discussion of the pass defense, the bolded portion is completely wrong. McDermott lives by disguise; getting Elam will increase the amount of disguise they can use, because offenses won't be able to force them into zone coverages, as happened last year when the Bills simply couldn't match up in man coverage.   

 

McDermott's defense is predicated on disguise and confusion, and that won't change. 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

And had more than a handful of “no arm tackles” where he just dove into their legs with his shoulders, hoping they’d go down. 

While that definitely scares, I think the coaches will change that.  He’ll be called out and embarrassed. He seems like an alpha and alphas don’t want to be “soft”.  Cj henderson taught him how to be soft and it got him to the league.  Now it’s up to our coaches and Kaiir to make sure he doesn’t play like Henderson in the league.  
 

what scares me most after watching a bunch of tape is his grabby nature.  He did it a LOT.  Called for 7 penalties but probably got away with 30 others.  He reminds me of Carlton Davis with his hands.  He can be a nuisance…..as long as the ref allow him to be

 

@BarleyNY was right about the grabbing its early in routes rather than downfield and it ia because of his transitions. Normally that is players with stiff hips but Elam has nice fluid hips his feet just don't always seem to follow them and he gives up leverage as a result and then he grabs. It isn't just us saying it either. Beane referred to his transitions as an area for improvement towards the end of the post round 1 presser. I think it is likely coachable. But that worries me more than the tackling and it is why I had him as a high 2nd rather than a 1st. While I thought the tackling was likely to make the Bills wary I actually place relatively modest value on it for a corner. Cover first. If you can tackle well after, great. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by GunnerBill

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

All of the investment in pass rush and now the "traits" add at CB are basically the Bills trying to create a defense, on paper at least, that doesn't have any inherent vulnerability.

 

Whether that degree of effort/investment is worthwhile at the expense of offensive investment is questionable.   

 

I think what they determined is that any problems with the offense last year were tied more to coaching and preparation than talent; whereas on defense any problems were because of talent deficiencies. You can argue with that if you want - the offensive line had some talent issues early in the year - but I tend to agree with that judgment. The offense was practically able to score at will in the playoffs, as long as it ran through Josh Allen. The defense on the other hand showed real vulnerabilities in the front 4 and CB2 spot which scheme alone could only cover up so much. The addition of Von Miller and Kaiir Elam may eliminate those vulnerabilities entirely. On offense the most important development would be Spencer Brown progressing in his sophomore season. As long as that happens there really isn't a weakness on that side of the ball.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think what they determined is that any problems with the offense last year were tied more to coaching and preparation than talent; whereas on defense any problems were because of talent deficiencies. You can argue with that if you want - the offensive line had some talent issues early in the year - but I tend to agree with that judgment. The offense was practically able to score at will in the playoffs, as long as it ran through Josh Allen. The defense on the other hand showed real vulnerabilities in the front 4 and CB2 spot which scheme alone could only cover up so much. The addition of Von Miller and Kaiir Elam may eliminate those vulnerabilities entirely. On offense the most important development would be Spencer Brown progressing in his sophomore season. As long as that happens there really isn't a weakness on that side of the ball.

 

Personally I think the offense was lack of talent on the oline first and foremost and while I expect it to be better, I am not convinced they have done enough.

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Personally I think the offense was lack of talent on the oline first and foremost and while I expect it to be better, I am not convinced they have done enough.

 

They have a higher opinion of Saffold than you do. At the very least we can agree he will be an upgrade on Darryl Williams' mail-in performance last year. I assume Dawkins will pick up where he left off, Bates will be a stable fixture on the line, Morse will be his usual self. The only real question mark is Spencer Brown and I think there is reason to be optimistic. Worst case scenario they will have Quessenberry take his spot. Anyone they added on the OL would have been future depth if anything.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

They have a higher opinion of Saffold than you do. At the very least we can agree he will be an upgrade on Darryl Williams' mail-in performance last year. I assume Dawkins will pick up where he left off, Bates will be a stable fixture on the line, Morse will be his usual self. The only real question mark is Spencer Brown and I think there is reason to be optimistic. Worst case scenario they will have Quessenberry take his spot. Anyone they added on the OL would have been future depth if anything.

 

They do. They had a higher opinion of Feliciano too. 

[BADOLBILZ]

58 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Although I find this post interesting and a good discussion of the pass defense, the bolded portion is completely wrong. McDermott lives by disguise; getting Elam will increase the amount of disguise they can use, because offenses won't be able to force them into zone coverages, as happened last year when the Bills simply couldn't match up in man coverage.   

 

McDermott's defense is predicated on disguise and confusion, and that won't change. 

 

I didn't say they were planning to use less disguise.

 

As discussed..........they have played well in man coverage.........your "couldn't match up in man coverage" is technically false.........they were the top defense in the NFL.

 

The issue against KC the past two years has been an inability to get pass rush.

 

As I've said...........doesn't matter who is playing CB if the QB has 6 seconds to throw to an elite group of receiving talent.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

49 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

At the very least we can agree he will be an upgrade on Darryl Williams' mail-in performance last year.

 

 

"At the very least"?

 

 

 

Rodger Saffold is 5 years older than DW and missed 300+ snaps while battling a chronic shoulder injury in 2021........about 5 full games worth.

 

Williams played 98% of Bills snaps with OG and OT versatility that Saffold doesn't have.    PFF had thier performances graded about the same.

 

The at the very least is "at the very least Aaron Kromer liked him".

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Personally I think the offense was lack of talent on the oline first and foremost and while I expect it to be better, I am not convinced they have done enough.

 

 

This.

 

Except I would say talent/skill.    Spencer Brown had talent.   Skill not so much.   Dion Dawkins had talent but his skill was diminished by illness.    Mitch Morse has talent but the system wasn't helping him.    Daryl Williams had proven talent but he appeared to come into the season inexcusably out of shape/unprepared.

 

Cody Ford,  Ike Boettger and Jon Feliciano were definitely fighting an uphill battle against a lack of talent though.

 

As for @HappyDays take about the organization "determining" that any issue with the offense was just coaching and preparation.  There is a distinction between  determining something or just deciding it.    Determine by definition indicates that there is no doubt.        

Edited May 6, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[BarleyNY]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

And had more than a handful of “no arm tackles” where he just dove into their legs with his shoulders, hoping they’d go down. 

While that definitely scares, I think the coaches will change that.  He’ll be called out and embarrassed. He seems like an alpha and alphas don’t want to be “soft”.  Cj henderson taught him how to be soft and it got him to the league.  Now it’s up to our coaches and Kaiir to make sure he doesn’t play like Henderson in the league.  
 

what scares me most after watching a bunch of tape is his grabby nature.  He did it a LOT.  Called for 7 penalties but probably got away with 30 others.  He reminds me of Carlton Davis with his hands.  He can be a nuisance…..as long as the ref allow him to be

Yeah.  I don’t get the not tackling thing.  He doesn’t shy away from being physical when the WRs are on their routes, but he looks like he went to Deion Sanders’ CB school where he told CBS that not tackling lengthens their careers.  Just zero interest in hitting a player with the ball.

 

Two things always worry me about CBs - the ones that have to grab WRs to cover and the ones that avoid tackling.  He has shown both.  But he also has talent. I guess we have to see what he does now. 

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Yeah.  I don’t get the not tackling thing.  He doesn’t shy away from being physical when the WRs are on their routes, but he looks like he went to Deion Sanders’ CB school where he told CBS that not tackling lengthens their careers.  Just zero interest in hitting a player with the ball.

 

Two things always worry me about CBs - the ones that have to grab WRs to cover and the ones that avoid tackling.  He has shown both.  But he also has talent. I guess we have to see what he does now. 

This is why i had preferred Booth, Gordon and Hill.  All 3 physical tacklers.  But you can’t teach height, speed, length and one’s heart.  It’s on the coaches to mold him into what they want.

[BarleyNY]

11 hours ago, NewEra said:

This is why i had preferred Booth, Gordon and Hill.  All 3 physical tacklers.  But you can’t teach height, speed, length and one’s heart.  It’s on the coaches to mold him into what they want.

Yup.  No choice now but to hope for that. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by BarleyNY

[Richard Noggin]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

They have a higher opinion of Saffold than you do. At the very least we can agree he will be an upgrade on Darryl Williams' mail-in performance last year. I assume Dawkins will pick up where he left off, Bates will be a stable fixture on the line, Morse will be his usual self. The only real question mark is Spencer Brown and I think there is reason to be optimistic. Worst case scenario they will have Quessenberry take his spot. Anyone they added on the OL would have been future depth if anything.

 

The bolded might make sense if we only look at a 2021 game or two when Williams struggled mightily at TACKLE. We all remember the replay of him not even coming out of his stance as the DE (I cannot place the exact game/situation as I type this...and on the internet I still like to look as smart or stupid as I'd be in person) tore past him. I suspect there are some unseen contributions (injury, if I recall?) to that REALLY bad look. Overall, though, his performance at GUARD was at least replacement level, if not better. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

The bolded might make sense if we only look at a 2021 game or two when Williams struggled mightily at TACKLE. We all remember the replay of him not even coming out of his stance as the DE (I cannot place the exact game/situation as I type this...and on the internet I still like to look as smart or stupid as I'd be in person) tore past him. I suspect there are some unseen contributions (injury, if I recall?) to that REALLY bad look. Overall, though, his performance at GUARD was at least replacement level, if not better. 

 

TBH when you  get a play where an OLman doesn't come out of his stance, it's typically  IMO a communication breakdown where he didn't get the snap count, and there are lots of places where the communication can break down.

 

I could be wrong, maybe someone has PFF's take on it, but I thought at guard Williams was decent in pass protection and couldn't get 'er done in the run game.

 

That's sort of the Anti-Saffold where he was all-pro level in the run game and struggled in pass protection.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

21 hours ago, Doc said:

I wouldn’t say that just because the Bills didn’t take a WR at 23, that they didn’t invest in offense. Maybe some are short-term investments, but they’re investments just the same. 

Did the Bills sign FA on offense and use draft picks on offense, sure

 

But it’s like 2 brothers where parents give one a Rolex and one a Timex.  They both were given watches, but the investment is a little different between the two

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Did the Bills sign FA on offense and use draft picks on offense, sure

 

But it’s like 2 brothers where parents give one a Rolex and one a Timex.  They both were given watches, but the investment is a little different between the two

 

The one brother needs the Rolex because he's always running 13 seconds behind...

[Blank Stare]

15 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Personally I think the offense was lack of talent on the oline first and foremost and while I expect it to be better, I am not convinced they have done enough.

This is not encouraging:

 

 

[HappyDays]

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Williams played 98% of Bills snaps with OG and OT versatility that Saffold doesn't have.    PFF had thier performances graded about the same.

 

Maybe PFF will pay Williams the vet minimum to come play for them. So far no NFL team has been willing. My read on the situation is that he got paid for the first time in his career and got lazy.

[Blank Stare]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Seems about right… I mean what do people expect? They added Saffold, a guy who struggles in pass protection and did nothing else… A somewhat below average offensive line in pass protection sounds about right this season…. There are going to be several game where I expect Josh is going to have to bail out it’s bad play yet again.

 

Yeah, I don’t disagree. Would’ve liked to see them strengthen the line a bit more than they did. The line was pretty rough a good chunk of last year.
 

That said, I do think this chart is being a little tough on our tackles. Not so much Spencer Brown since he still has a lot to prove, but more so Dawkins. Sure, he had a mediocre year up until after his second stint with Covid and coming back during that second Cheaters game. I thought he was pretty damn good from that point on. I also think before the early part of last year that Dawkins has been pretty good for us year over year too.
 

This projection seems to ignore that otherwise solid production in previous years as well as any recency bias with his strong play to close out last year. I’d have to know what goes into this projection, but odd that it seems to not give him much credit for a solid career overall here. I guess I would’ve expected the tackles rated in the mid-to-high 60s. I guess not far off, but a little harsh to me. Guard and center ratings look reasonable. 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Maybe PFF will pay Williams the vet minimum to come play for them. So far no NFL team has been willing. My read on the situation is that he got paid for the first time in his career and got lazy.

 

 

Yeah, I suspect Williams didn't do the work in the offseason to repeat his stellar 2020 season.   He played better in the second half of the season,  which supports that belief.  

 

I suspect Saffold would have been in the exact same boat as Williams as a UDFA had Beane not thrown him that generous life preserver.   There was no bidding war.   He wanted to play with Kromer and somehow his agent got a $6M deal from Beane thisquick.  He was paid quite handsomely for a 35 year old OG that his last team wanted to move on from after a season where he looked to be in notable decline both in performance and availability.   If he isn't any better in Buffalo than he was in TN last year and is still coming out of every game injured for a couple series then expect the boo birds to be out on him.  

 

Our hope is that his shoulder heals and their strength and conditioning team can coax one last season out of him.    Of course we were told that Emmanuel Sanders definitely would have one left in him.......and that playing with Josh Allen for 17 games instead of the combination of tired Drew Brees and his injury replacements that Sanders would finish on a higher note than his 2020 season.   But nope.   That turkey was cooked in October and cold cuts by Thanksgiving.

[John from Riverside]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah, I suspect Williams didn't do the work in the offseason to repeat his stellar 2020 season.   He played better in the second half of the season,  which supports that belief.  

 

I suspect Saffold would have been in the exact same boat as Williams as a UDFA had Beane not thrown him that generous life preserver.   There was no bidding war.   He wanted to play with Kromer and somehow his agent got a $6M deal from Beane thisquick.  He was paid quite handsomely for a 35 year old OG that his last team wanted to move on from after a season where he looked to be in notable decline both in performance and availability.   If he isn't any better in Buffalo than he was in TN last year and is still coming out of every game injured for a couple series then expect the boo birds to be out on him.  

 

Our hope is that his shoulder heals and their strength and conditioning team can coax one last season out of him.    Of course we were told that Emmanuel Sanders definitely would have one left in him.......and that playing with Josh Allen for 17 games instead of the combination of tired Drew Brees and his injury replacements that Sanders would finish on a higher note than his 2020 season.   But nope.   That turkey was cooked in October and cold cuts by Thanksgiving.

Yes $6 million is so much for prior pro bowl guards for Christ sake