New Bills stadium deal is bad for taxpayers, according to Yahoo!

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Lambeau had a massive reno in 2003 that would cost at least 450 million today and then another 140 million put into it in 2014.  Arrowhead did the same for at least as much 10 years ago. You left out Soldier Field which was subtotally demolished and rebuilt.  

 

Erie/the Bills chose not to similarly remake  the the Ralph when it was feasible to do so...settling instead on some cosmetic work a few years ago (which will all be tossed out now).  

 

I the next 10 years you will hear calls for many of those stadiums to be replaced.  The RCA Dome made it to 23 years.  Silverdome made int to 26 years.  3 Rivers made it to 30.  Giants stadium 33.  Bills stadium is the only place hitting 50 without a major overhaul.   Other than the above, there is no stadium over 35 years old.

 

Yup, Lambeau was reno'd, as was Arrowhead.  As will be most of the stadiums I mentioned (that's why I left off Soldier, it's not all or nothing).  The new Bills stadium can be reno'd as well, as the Ralph was many times during it's 50-year run.  At some point it's time to get a new stadium and that's where we're at right now.  In 25 years...not so much.

[Lost]

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

If you are of the mind that there simply is no better way to benefit more people with 850 million of public money, then you are going to say things like this.  We disagree.

 

Purely subjective talking point here.    You could ask 100 different people and get a 100 different answers as to where they think their tax dollars are best spent.  

 

Sure, a person who doesn't watch football or attend games is going to think 800M on a stadium is wasteful...but

A person who doesn't have children will think 800M on child health services is wasteful

Someone who doesn't drive could care less how much money the state spends on roads and bridges.

A person in the suburbs probably doesn't care much about public transportation.

 

I personally would rather see my tax dollars spent on a stadium than a whole laundry list of other items in the state budget.

 

You confuse me though.. You seem to be a Bills fan, no? But I've never seen anyone rail so hard against the team actually staying in NY and getting a new stadium.   

[Richard Noggin]

12 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said:

Don’t care how much it cost. New York blows my tax dollars on things I care about far, far less than the Bills. They are welcome to take 100% of my income tax and apply it towards this funding. 

 

Okay, but then you don't get to (or shouldn't) gripe about roads or construction delays or education or healthcare. I am SUPER ambivalent about the deal overall. I love the team and want it to stay forever and be successful, but I also recognize that this deal favors billionaires to an unnecessary extent. The Pegulas could have ponied up considerably more money and still made out like bandits. And the Bills would STILL STAY IN BUFFALO, PLUS the county and state would have more money to blow on things you don't care about. 

[mikemac2001]

Didn’t they pay like 1.4 bill for Yankees stadium im sure we can get a 3rd of that 

 

 

[BuffaloBills1998]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Lambeau had a massive reno in 2003 that would cost at least 450 million today and then another 140 million put into it in 2014.  Arrowhead did the same for at least as much 10 years ago. You left out Soldier Field which was subtotally demolished and rebuilt.  

 

Erie/the Bills chose not to similarly remake  the the Ralph when it was feasible to do so...settling instead on some cosmetic work a few years ago (which will all be tossed out now).  

 

I the next 10 years you will hear calls for many of those stadiums to be replaced.  The RCA Dome made it to 23 years.  Silverdome made int to 26 years.  3 Rivers made it to 30.  Giants stadium 33.  Bills stadium is the only place hitting 50 without a major overhaul.   Other than the above, there is no stadium over 35 years old.

Hard Rock stadium is practically a brand new stadium. Miami doesn’t have to worry about their stadium for a long time. Jacksonville’s stadium is a dump though as is Chicago’s and Green Bay’s. 

[Doc]

8 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Hard Rock stadium is practically a brand new stadium. Miami doesn’t have to worry about their stadium for a long time. Jacksonville’s stadium is a dump though as is Chicago’s and Green Bay’s. 

 

HRS opened in 1987.  It's been reno'd, like many stadiums are (Green Bay) and will be, Jax's stadium probably included.  Chicago is getting a new stadium.  The point being, the new Bills stadium is unlikely to be torn down in 25 years.  That's just WEO hating on the Pegulas, as usual.

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Lost said:

 

Purely subjective talking point here.    You could ask 100 different people and get a 100 different answers as to where they think their tax dollars are best spent.  

 

Sure, a person who doesn't watch football or attend games is going to think 800M on a stadium is wasteful...but

A person who doesn't have children will think 800M on child health services is wasteful

Someone who doesn't drive could care less how much money the state spends on roads and bridges.

A person in the suburbs probably doesn't care much about public transportation.

 

I personally would rather see my tax dollars spent on a stadium than a whole laundry list of other items in the state budget.

 

You confuse me though.. You seem to be a Bills fan, no? But I've never seen anyone rail so hard against the team actually staying in NY and getting a new stadium.   

 

Many people who watch football and attend games don't believe the public should fund stadiums (see SD and St Louis). 

 

 

I wouldn't know anyone who thinks the publicly funded care of children is "wasteful". 

 

I don't know anyone who doesn't travel in a vehicle that uses roads and bridges (or tracks or tunnels).

 

People who live in the suburbs of major cities often use public transportation daily (the entire Tri-State Area, for example).

 

You are confusing railing against bad deals for the public with "railing against the team actually staying" (whatever that is).  I've stated many times, it's my belief the state could have forced a better deal from PSE.  Why are you struggling with such a basic point?

 

 

9 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Hard Rock stadium is practically a brand new stadium. Miami doesn’t have to worry about their stadium for a long time. Jacksonville’s stadium is a dump though as is Chicago’s and Green Bay’s. 

 

 

lol Green Bay's stadium is a "dump"?  

 

hot take right there.

Edited April 18, 2022 by Mr. WEO

[Greg S]

8 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Many people who watch football and attend games don't believe the public should fund stadiums (see SD and St Louis). 

 

 

I wouldn't know anyone who thinks the publicly funded care of children is "wasteful". 

 

I don't know anyone who doesn't travel in a vehicle that doesn't use roads and bridges (or tracks or tunnels).

 

People who live in the suburbs of major cities often use public transportation daily (the entire Tri-State Area, for example).

 

You are confusing railing against bad deals for the public with "railing against the team actually staying" (whatever that is).  I've stated many times, it's my belief the state could have forced a better deal from PSE.  Why are you struggling with such a basic point?

 

 

 

 

lol Green Bay's stadium is a "dump"?  

 

hot take right there.

 

Lambeau is on my bucket list of things to see.

[Mr. WEO]

57 minutes ago, Greg S said:

 

Lambeau is on my bucket list of things to see.

 

don't go, it's a dump.  Heard it here first.

[Greg S]

51 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

don't go, it's a dump.  Heard it here first.

 

Lambeau is like the old Yankee Stadium of football. Definitely want to there as well as Fenway and Wrigley. 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

Lambeau is like the old Yankee Stadium of football. Definitely want to there as well as Fenway and Wrigley. 

 

By all accounts (except that one poster upstream),  Lambeau after the renovation is a great stadium.

[Mike in Horseheads]

[Doc Brown]

16 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

And the Bills would STILL STAY IN BUFFALO, PLUS the county and state would have more money to blow on things you don't care about. 

We don’t know that for sure and there’s no point in risking it over griping about less than .5% of the NYS budget.

[BillsVet]

Juvenal had no idea his writing in the late 1st century/early 2nd would also apply to another great nation 1900 years later...people really love their panem et circenses. At what cost...only time will tell.  

Edited April 18, 2022 by BillsVet

[clayboy54]

The Coliseum in Rome is 1952 years old. I'd like to see Lambeau in that many years. 🙂

[PromoTheRobot]

Not that I'm all that interested in this thread but I had to know why it was still at the top of the page. I get it now.

[TH3]

Love the comment to the article that points out that Holy Cross..where the author is a prof…ain’t worth $72,000 a year in tuition. 
 

I would bet that almost no NFL stadium can saw off its costs with jobs created locally…simply not possible. I would also say that the reason the public keeps paying is because IT IS worth it. Not in jobs but in fun, regional pride and identity and qualitative value. The author is wrong to leave this out of his analysis.

[BillsfaninSB]

4 hours ago, clayboy54 said:

The Coliseum in Rome is 1952 years old. I'd like to see Lambeau in that many years. 🙂

Not many people know this but the Coliseum was built because the Rome Raiders threaten the City with relocating to Alexandria, Egypt if they did not get a new stadium. 

[buffblue]

17 minutes ago, BillsfaninSB said:

Not many people know this but the Coliseum was built because the Rome Raiders threaten the City with relocating to Alexandria, Egypt if they did not get a new stadium. 

Actually I believe this is erroneous. I was told that the Raiders were more interested in pursuing a move to Constantinople.

 

This is what my dad told me, anyway. He was alive back then...

[boater]

On 4/17/2022 at 4:25 PM, Mr. WEO said:

not to similarly remake  the the Ralph when it was feasible to do so.

Yet studies and photographs clearly show the upper deck about to collapse. You call that feasible for correction?

[Mr. WEO]

10 minutes ago, boater said:

Yet studies and photographs clearly show the upper deck about to collapse. You call that feasible for correction?

about to collapse? No. The fact that games were safe enough to hold a full crowd only months ago renders that ridiculous.

 

but if you read my post a little more closely, you would see I said “when it was feasible to do so”.  You even quoted it

 

lol wtf

[boater]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

about to collapse? No. The fact that games were safe enough to hold a full crowd only months ago renders that ridiculous.

 

but if you read my post a little more closely, you would see I said “when it was feasible to do so”.  You even quoted it

 

lol wtf

Some people can't accept being wrong on the internet. PS: about to collapse = 5 years in this instance, I apologize for not making that explicit. The upper deck has a life span of 5 years. Engineer inspections have proven it so.

 

Maybe that “when it was feasible to do so” gives you the wiggle room to be right. If so, touche.

[Doc]

I guess they could wait for it to collapse before doing something about it.  You know, just to be sure...

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, boater said:

Some people can't accept being wrong on the internet. PS: about to collapse = 5 years in this instance, I apologize for not making that explicit. The upper deck has a life span of 5 years. Engineer inspections have proven it so.

 

Maybe that “when it was feasible to do so” gives you the wiggle room to be right. If so, touche.

 

10 hours ago, Doc said:

I guess they could wait for it to collapse before doing something about it.  You know, just to be sure...

when it was feasible would have been some years ago.  Your histrionics over  impending “collapse” helps you obscure the obvious. Pointing out that it now is beyond repair is meaningless for the purpose of this discussion.  Other major remodeling projects didn’t wait so long as 50 years you both know,  so you understand.  

[ALF]

I think the County will insist Terry pick up the cost to renovate or replace the Key Bank Center , Sabres home. As long as the Bill's fans get a new stadium we are happy campers.

[SoCal Deek]

13 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

when it was feasible would have been some years ago.  Your histrionics over  impending “collapse” helps you obscure the obvious. Pointing out that it now is beyond repair is meaningless for the purpose of this discussion.  Other major remodeling projects didn’t wait so long as 50 years you both know,  so you understand.  

A reinforced concrete structure is not as easy to retrofit as you might think, especially if the steel is exposed to the elements and begins to rust. At some point it needs to be demolished. 

[Doc]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

A reinforced concrete structure is not as easy to retrofit as you might think, especially if the steel is exposed to the elements and begins to rust. At some point it needs to be demolished. 

Well, just so you understand, he’s an engineer so he knows the time to renovate was within the last 7 years…

[crackerjack man]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:13 AM, BillsFan4 said:

From the headline of the article I thought this guy actually studied the details of the deal but clearly he hasn’t if he doesn’t even know that the state is no longer responsible for maintenance costs. Or game day operating costs (like they were before).

 

It looks like it’s just a lazily written article that just rehashes all the same old generic arguments against taxpayer funded stadiums without actually looking at any of the details of this particular deal.

 

https://www.wkbw.com/news/local-news/poloncarz-erie-county-no-longer-in-the-football-business

 

Pretty sure the state now is picking up the operating costs (from the county). The state revenues are largely from downstate and will have a negligible impact on most people around here. It's really not too bad of a deal for the county. The county spends a grotesque amount of money (+/-$40 million per year) on suburban and rural roads (by far the most in the state). It is repulsive. Unlike 90% of those roads, at least I will go to the stadium!

[Doc]

1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said:

A reinforced concrete structure is not as easy to retrofit as you might think, especially if the steel is exposed to the elements and begins to rust. At some point it needs to be demolished. 

 

Just so you understand, WEO is an engineer, has studied the stadium and knows for a fact that the time to renovate the upper deck was within the last 7-1/2 years...

Edited April 19, 2022 by Doc

[ddaryl]

Now that the deal is signed sealed and delivered for Buffalo.. I do hope this deal is a straw that breaks the camels back for future stadium projects in other cities and states.

tax breaks/deals for billionaires and corporate America, heavily compensated lodging for sports team owners all should stop IMO.... 

But I sure am a hypocrite because I am glad we got our stadium deal and the Bills are locked in for my lifetime

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Just so you understand, WEO is an engineer, has studied the stadium and knows for a fact that the time to renovate the upper deck was within the last 7-1/2 years...

Good to know. I’m glad there’s someone else on here with that type of significant professional experience. 😉

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

A reinforced concrete structure is not as easy to retrofit as you might think, especially if the steel is exposed to the elements and begins to rust. At some point it needs to be demolished. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Doc said:

Well, just so you understand, he’s an engineer so he knows the time to renovate was within the last 7 years…

 

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Just so you understand, WEO is an engineer, has studied the stadium and knows for a fact that the time to renovate the upper deck was within the last 7-1/2 years...

 

Perseveration is often the first sign, doc...

 

Anyway, 7.5 years ago, any issues with the structure were well known when Pegula bought the place.  Yet, despite the well documented FACT that it is "about to collapse", it has been deemed safe for use until at least 4 years from now, whenever the new place is finished.  Maybe you and boater can position yourselves outside the gates for each home gate until then, warning people against entering the teetering wreck.

 

Anyway, PSE (based on engineers' report) recently said it would cost a billion to renovate the current stadium---if you disagree, take it up with them.  However, we can assume it would have been significantly less if planned 7.5 years ago.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Mr. WEO

[Doc]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Perseveration is often the first sign, doc...

 

Anyway, 7.5 years ago, any issues with the structure were well known when Pegula bought the place.  Yet, despite the well documented FACT that it is "about to collapse", it has been deemed safe for use until at least 4 years from now, whenever the new place is finished.  Maybe you and boater can position yourselves outside the gates for each home gate until then, warning people against entering the teetering wreck.

 

Anyway, PSE (based on engineers' report) recently said it would cost a billion to renovate the current stadium---if you disagree, take it up with them.  However, we can assume it would have been significantly less if planned 7.5 years ago.

 

Oh, the hypocrisy!  You're still trying to play engineer.  But it takes more than assumptions. 

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

 

 

Perseveration is often the first sign, doc...

 

Anyway, 7.5 years ago, any issues with the structure were well known when Pegula bought the place.  Yet, despite the well documented FACT that it is "about to collapse", it has been deemed safe for use until at least 4 years from now, whenever the new place is finished.  Maybe you and boater can position yourselves outside the gates for each home gate until then, warning people against entering the teetering wreck.

 

Anyway, PSE (based on engineers' report) recently said it would cost a billion to renovate the current stadium---if you disagree, take it up with them.  However, we can assume it would have been significantly less if planned 7.5 years ago.

With all due respect Mr. Weo...of the two of us....which of us is a long-practicing Architect who specializes in large public projects...like stadiums?  Me, or you?

[Mattymafia]

On 4/15/2022 at 10:23 AM, What a Tuel said:

 

300 million over 7 years doesn't seem like a lot and i doubt that is even net income. Projected over 30 years it might barely cover a new stadium? 

 

Meanwhile they keep the team here and NY/Erie County rake in the tax revenue from players contracts, coach contracts, organizational payroll, ticket sales, merchandise sales, etc etc etc. 

 

The fairest way is a split between public and private funding which is what they did. Yes the state paid a bit more but they dont have the leverage being a small market team.

That is legitimately the smartest way to think about this. The player taxes over 30 years pays out way more than the states stadium costs.

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

With all due respect Mr. Weo...of the two of us....which of us is a long-practicing Architect who specializes in large public projects...like stadiums?  Me, or you?

 

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Oh, the hypocrisy!  You're still trying to play engineer.  But it takes more than assumptions. 

 

3 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

With all due respect Mr. Weo...of the two of us....which of us is a long-practicing Architect who specializes in large public projects...like stadiums?  Me, or you?

I’m no engineer, that’s for sure.
 

Instead, as posted above, I was quoting PSE leadership who was quoting the firm that assessed the current stadium.  They said it could be done for the price they mentioned. 
 

Why don’t either of you tell us all how your survey of that property came to the opposite conclusion that theirs did.  

 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I’m no engineer, that’s for sure.
 

Instead, as posted above, I was quoting PSE leadership who was quoting the firm that assessed the current stadium.  They said it could be done for the price they mentioned. 
 

Why don’t either of you tell us all how your survey of that property came to the opposite conclusion that theirs did.  

 

I have no idea where you’re going with any of this. Is there a point you’re trying to make? 

[T&C]

9 hours ago, ALF said:

I think the County will insist Terry pick up the cost to renovate or replace the Key Bank Center , Sabres home. As long as the Bill's fans get a new stadium we are happy campers.

I don't live in WNY right now but it seems that they spent a Lot of money on development in Buffalo awhile back, I forgot what they did but for some reason a renovation of the arena is stuck in my mind. Maybe it was the area around the arena.

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I have no idea where you’re going with any of this. Is there a point you’re trying to make? 

I swear I am not trying to confuse you.  I’ve made and repeated my point several times, to which you have responded.  Not sure where I  just lost you, but not sure what to add.