Really happy for Harry Phillips and Ed Oliver…

[eball]

…who have established themselves this year as (edit) potential cornerstones of the Bills’ D.  Per usual, the armchair idiots who called both guys busts have once again been proven wrong.  Different players have different timelines to become acclimated to the NFL (and Harry had to overcome a significant injury).  I look forward to a new contract for Phillips and watching both of these guys anchor the DL for years to come.

 

When will fans learn?  Probably never.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by eball

[Big Turk]

They have really played well...Phillips especially during the last half of the year. He was actually being healthy scratched during the first half of the season a few times...

 

Cannot believe dude is putting it together like this playing with a torn PCL since training camp.

[BuffaloBillyG]

The least few weeks especially these 2 have been lights out. Amazing how well they both have played once they received a higher percentage of the snap count. Hoping it continues after they both get a nice payday...and neither one of these guys strike me as a Dareus type. 

 

Big Ed just has that crazy guy energy. Last week the way Phillips played....well it reminded me of this fella that wore 95 for us a few years back. And just in time for the playoffs!

[SoCal Deek]

I’m sorry to be that guy but Ed Oliver hasn’t lived up to anywhere near his draft level. That doesn’t mean he isn’t playing well this year or isn’t a nice guy but he’s not been the impact player you’d expect from a guy picked that high. (Of course he doesn’t choose when he’s picked so is it really his ‘fault’?)

[Coach Tuesday]

What kind of sh-- post is this?

 

Oliver has played great this year.  Phillips has played really well the last few games.

 

Why you'd take all of that as an opportunity to chest-thump and berate fellow Bills fans is beyond me.  You had nothing to do with either player's success and it's not as if you've been running around championing those two as hidden gems on this forum.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Coach Tuesday

[hondo in seattle]

10 minutes ago, eball said:

…who have established themselves this year as cornerstones of the Bills’ D.  Per usual, the armchair idiots who called both guys busts have once again been proven wrong.  Different players have different timelines to become acclimated to the NFL (and Harry had to overcome a significant injury).  I look forward to a new contract for Phillips and watching both of these guys anchor the DL for years to come.

 

When will fans learn?  Probably never.

 

 

 

We are ALL armchair idiots.  We all make wrong personnel evaluations.  

 

I once thought Trent Edwards would be a good QB.  What an idiot I was!  But I based that opinion on hearing Bill Walsh saying TE would be good.  What an idiot Bill was!

 

Talent evaluation is hard.  Professionals put lots and lots of time and study into it and still get it wrong sometimes.   Amateurs like us will be wrong far more often.   It's just part of being a fan.  We have opinions.  Our opinions aren't based on a lot of professional expertise or an in-depth knowledge of the player.  So sometimes we're wrong.  

 

There were reasons to doubt both Phillips and Oliver.  And let's be honest, neither is now dominant - though both are playing appreciably better.  

[Buffalo Boy]

5 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

What kind of sh-- post is this?

 

Oliver has played great this year.  Phillips has played really well the last few games.

 

Why you'd take all of that as an opportunity to chest-thump and berate fellow Bills fans is beyond me.  You had nothing to do with either player's success and it's not as if you've been running around championing those two as hidden gems on this forum.

Hence the Eye Roll emoji.

 

    This was Oliver’s last chance season for me. He has had a good season but I agree with SoCal D…. He is not living up to his draft status.

    This D can be run on, at will, by good rushing attacks. That is clearly not all on the line or Oliver but they play a part. Back to this being the “ #1 “ ?!?!?!  Philips/Cotrell’s # 4 D was better than this D in spades!  
    So, yeah , EO is having a nice year and deserves to be resigned but not at an exorbitant rate and maybe we let him test FA if he gets a little to full of himself.

    Philips is coming off an injury. Not sure I’ve seen anyone stump for his lack of ability. Good to see him coming into form. Availability is his biggest plus right now. Can he burnish that plus? Remains to be seen.

[BuffaloRebound]

29 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m sorry to be that guy but Ed Oliver hasn’t lived up to anywhere near his draft level. That doesn’t mean he isn’t playing well this year or isn’t a nice guy but he’s not been the impact player you’d expect from a guy picked that high. (Of course he doesn’t choose when he’s picked so is it really his ‘fault’?)

It’s not like he was drafted top 3 or even top 5.  Draft is an inexact science.  Oliver is starting to show signs of being a difference maker and before that he’s been solid.  He’s not a bust and is showing signs.  They can’t all be home runs.  Singles can get the job done too.  

[Max Fischer]

This post seems to be more about you than about “idiot” fans and the Bills. 

[BillnutinHouston]

There are some in here who are just compelled to name-call and condescend, it's just their nature.

[billieve420]

Honestly if you end up with starter it was a successful draft pick in my opinion. People can have different measures for success. However, playing DT is not a flashy position so in my eyes Oliver has succeeded and is in line for an extension when time comes.

[Draconator]

I still think the Bills should trade for Etienne

[Virgil]

While I’m happy to see their improvement, I’m waiting to see what they do in the playoffs.  They both have the ability to disappear in big games.  Hopefully these past few weeks is then really turning the corner and we see big things from them in the coming weeks 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m sorry to be that guy but Ed Oliver hasn’t lived up to anywhere near his draft level. That doesn’t mean he isn’t playing well this year or isn’t a nice guy but he’s not been the impact player you’d expect from a guy picked that high. (Of course he doesn’t choose when he’s picked so is it really his ‘fault’?)

 

He has this year. Without a single question. Over his 3 years it remains a fair point, his 2nd season in particular was a disappointment. This year, and certainly since about week 5, he has played like a top 10 pick. 

 

 

EDIT: @Coach Tuesday is right. I don't think Harrison has yet done enough to be discussed in the same category as Ed Oliver. Harrison has played well for a month after nearly two seasons of a lot of below average play with occasional flashes. I am hopeful this is a sign of things to come and I would now be interested in trying to keep him (whereas a month ago I'd have happily let him walk) and I have suggested the sort of deal I'd offer him in the separate thread on his future. But Ed's consistency this season (which was always his issue before) has been very impressive and he is in a different conversation to Phillips for me. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by GunnerBill

[eball]

I'm all for fair critique of players.  What I can't stand is the premature "declarations" that run rampant.  If people can't understand that, it's not my problem.  Again, I'm glad for both of these guys and for the team.

[Coach Tuesday]

2 hours ago, eball said:

…who have established themselves this year as cornerstones of the Bills’ D.

 

 

2 minutes ago, eball said:

 What I can't stand is the premature "declarations" that run rampant.  

 

SMH...

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, eball said:

I'm all for fair critique of players.  What I can't stand is the premature "declarations" that run rampant.  If people can't understand that, it's not my problem.  Again, I'm glad for both of these guys and for the team.

 

To be fair anyone making a declaration of Phillips 3 and a half years into his career is fair enough. I am hopeful that a light has gone on but fans shouldn't have to wait 4 years to come to a view on a player. If Phillips really has suddenly taken a leap after 3 and a half seasons he is the exception not the rule. 

[eball]

Just now, Coach Tuesday said:

 

 

SMH...

 

Fair point.

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

To be fair anyone making a declaration of Phillips 3 and a half years into his career is fair enough. I am hopeful that a light has gone on but fans shouldn't have to wait 4 years to come to a view on a player. If Phillips really has suddenly taken a leap after 3 and a half seasons he is the exception not the rule. 

 

And yet in another way it's far too early to declare Phillips a "cornerstone" of anything.  He's come on in the second half of this season.  Before that he was in danger of losing his job.  It's still far from clear he can sustain his current level of play nor is it a sure thing that he'll remain a starter even if they bring him back next year.

[Mr. WEO]

Handful of solid games and Harrison is an "anchor for years" now?

 

 

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

Handful of solid games and Harrison is an "anchor for years" now?

 

 

 

 

 

But those idiot fans with their premature declarations...

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

And yet in another way it's far too early to declare Phillips a "cornerstone" of anything.  He's come on in the second half of this season.  Before that he was in danger of losing his job.  It's still far from clear he can sustain his current level of play nor is it a sure thing that he'll remain a starter even if they bring him back next year.

 

Absolutely. It is what makes his contract situation so interesting. You have to decide if the last month is the new normal or if it is just a burst of good play that will soon regress to the mean. 

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Absolutely. It is what makes his contract situation so interesting. You have to decide if the last month is the new normal or if it is just a burst of good play that will soon regress to the mean. 

 

Either way I don't think he'll be too expensive if they want to keep him on a team-friendly deal.  His skills aren't too valuable on the open market - it's not like he came on late with a bevy of sacks or INTs, for example.  

[Wayne Cubed]

33 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He has this year. Without a single question. Over his 3 years it remains a fair point, his 2nd season in particular was a disappointment. This year, and certainly since about week 5, he has played like a top 10 pick. 

 

 

EDIT: @Coach Tuesday is right. I don't think Harrison has yet done enough to be discussed in the same category as Ed Oliver. Harrison has played well for a month after nearly two seasons of a lot of below average play with occasional flashes. I am hopeful this is a sign of things to come and I would now be interested in trying to keep him (whereas a month ago I'd have happily let him walk) and I have suggested the sort of deal I'd offer him in the separate thread on his future. But Ed's consistency this season (which was always his issue before) has been very impressive and he is in a different conversation to Phillips for me. 

 

Yea after his play this season he's definitely one of the best 32 players selected in the the 2019 draft and I would argue top 16, which doesn't put him far off where he was selected. 

[YattaOkasan]

26 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

Yea after his play this season he's definitely one of the best 32 players selected in the the 2019 draft and I would argue top 16, which doesn't put him far off where he was selected. 

Agree. His numbers are comparable to quinnen Williams (who is very good) on pro football reference. Would like to see some rate data from PFF of the two as though Ed has played more games he might have played similar number of snaps. 

[TheBrownBear]

Interior lineman always take longer than other positions to hit their stride, so I've learned to keep my mouth shut until these dudes have a couple of years under their belts.  But still, as a top-10 pick, I think we were all hoping Oliver would be more of an immediate plug-and-play gamechanger, so I understood some of the negativity towards him over the years.  I'm glad the staff stayed patient with him and Harry, and we are reaping the benefits now as they've grown into a nice tandem on the interior.  Hopefully, we see the same type of growth over the next two years from our gestating edge rushers.

Edited January 6, 2022 by TheBrownBear

[17islongenough]

44 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Handful of solid games and Harrison is an "anchor for years" now?

 

 

 

 

This is how he was trending before he got hurt in the Bengals game in 2019

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, 17islongenough said:

This is how he was trending before he got hurt in the Bengals game in 2019

 

so he was trending good 2 years ago...

[DrDawkinstein]

38 minutes ago, Wayne Cubed said:

 

Yea after his play this season he's definitely one of the best 32 players selected in the the 2019 draft and I would argue top 16, which doesn't put him far off where he was selected. 

 

Great point. Anyone crying about Oliver's draft position needs to go look at the rest of that 2019 draft and the 1st round selections that came after him.

 

There was no better pick to make, even in hindsight.

 

 

If it were me, I'm definitely picking up Oliver's 5th year option. And I'm looking to bring Harry back at a nice, team-friendly deal. I'm guessing we could get Harry re-signed for less than $5M/year (maybe even more like $1-2M). Considering we're paying Butler $7.5M, that's a good deal.

Edited January 6, 2022 by DrDawkinstein

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Great point. Anyone crying about Oliver's draft position needs to go look at the rest of that 2019 draft and the 1st round selections that came after him.

 

There was no better pick to make, even in hindsight.

 

I'd argue for one - Brian Burns is exactly the sort of bendy, explosive edge rusher we still lack. He was my #2 choice for our pick on the day as well. My #1 was Ed Oliver. 

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd argue for one - Brian Burns is exactly the sort of bendy, explosive edge rusher we still lack. He was my #2 choice for our pick on the day as well. My #1 was Ed Oliver. 

 

Yeha, he might be the only one, and it is DL, but not that presence in the middle we were looking for at the time.

[Matt_In_NH]

Working for that money!

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

It’s eballs signature… premature declarations and jumps the gun on everything. 

 

...in order to yell at fans.

[DrDawkinstein]

58 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Absolutely. It is what makes his contract situation so interesting. You have to decide if the last month is the new normal or if it is just a burst of good play that will soon regress to the mean. 

 

54 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Either way I don't think he'll be too expensive if they want to keep him on a team-friendly deal.  His skills aren't too valuable on the open market - it's not like he came on late with a bevy of sacks or INTs, for example.  

 

Butler gets $7M (way too much), and Zimmer makes $800k.

 

I'd think we could sign Harry well under $3M. Maybe even $1M/yr.

 

Would be totally worth it at those prices. 3yr/$6M, out after 2 years.

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Butler gets $7M (way too much), and Zimmer makes $800k.

 

I'd think we could sign Harry well under $3M. Maybe even $1M/yr.

 

Would be totally worth it at those prices. 3yr/$6M, out after 2 years.

 

I'd be surprised if he accepts that. Especially before testing the market. If that is our pitch he will his FA. He might get no better offers and then come back to us for that. 

 

I think to sign him pre-FA it would be $3.5-4.5m per I think but structured in such a way as it is team friendly to exit.

[TPS]

3 hours ago, eball said:

…who have established themselves this year as (edit) potential cornerstones of the Bills’ D.  Per usual, the armchair idiots who called both guys busts have once again been proven wrong.  Different players have different timelines to become acclimated to the NFL (and Harry had to overcome a significant injury).  I look forward to a new contract for Phillips and watching both of these guys anchor the DL for years to come.

 

When will fans learn?  Probably never.

 

 

Epenesa and Basham are  busts, probably Rousseau too....

😁

[McBean]

4 hours ago, eball said:

…who have established themselves this year as (edit) potential cornerstones of the Bills’ D.  Per usual, the armchair idiots who called both guys busts have once again been proven wrong.  Different players have different timelines to become acclimated to the NFL (and Harry had to overcome a significant injury).  I look forward to a new contract for Phillips and watching both of these guys anchor the DL for years to come.

 

When will fans learn?  Probably never.

 

 

Ed Oliver? Lmfao. Guy can’t carry Jeff Simmons bag to field.
 

the expectations here are so low it’s laughable.

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, McBean said:

Ed Oliver? Lmfao. Guy can’t carry Jeff Simmons bag to field.
 

the expectations here are so low it’s laughable.

 

I am sorry this year that just is not true. Ed Oliver has been outstanding. No knock on Simmons and career to date Simmons has outperformed him, but purely on this year alone it is very close. 

[YattaOkasan]

25 minutes ago, McBean said:

Ed Oliver? Lmfao. Guy can’t carry Jeff Simmons bag to field.
 

the expectations here are so low it’s laughable.

Ed is a better pass rusher. Currently #6 in win rate for DT. Simmons isn’t in the top 10. Simmons is better than Ed (but not harry) in the run game but to say he can’t carry his bag is pretty hyperbolic. 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32176833/2021-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings?platform=amp

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am sorry this year that just is not true. Ed Oliver has been outstanding. No knock on Simmons and career to date Simmons has outperformed him, but purely on this year alone it is very close. 

Simmons took a minute to get going honestly. His production has really taken off this year. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, McBean said:

Ed Oliver? Lmfao. Guy can’t carry Jeff Simmons bag to field.
 

the expectations here are so low it’s laughable.

Wow everyone is really on-brand in this sorry thread.