Wonderlic Test Eliminated from Pre-Draft Process

[nucci]

Not sure how it evaluates how players will perform in the NFL.

[Albany,n.y.]

I read this speculation on why Lamar Jackson scored so much lower than the other QBs of his class: No agent.  It seems the agents coach the players up to the Wonderlic to the point that it no longer means anything.  A prime example is when JP Losman took it the 1st time he got a 14 and then after being coached up by his agent &/or others he got a 31.  

 

They've also limited offensive questions, so you can no longer ask a potential draftee "Have you ever sucked a ####? "  
 

[RoyBatty is alive]

One of the biggest issues I have had with the Wunderlic is how quickly these allegedly "secret" scores are publicized.  If I were a player,  I wouldnt want to be ridiculed for having a low test score.  That in itself is enough for the NFLPA is enough, imo, to get the NFL to can the tests.

[Chicken Boo]

18 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

That was a totally different era when Marino & Kelly took it.  Like comparing records of QB TD/INT ratios from back then versus today

 

I don't understand how eras come into play regarding the wonderlic.  

[Albany,n.y.]

3 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I don't understand how eras come into play regarding the wonderlic.  

As I stated above, in this era the agents prepare their clients for the Wonderlic before they take the test.  In the early 1980s the agents weren't doing that.  

Edited January 5, 2022 by Albany,n.y.

[RoyBatty is alive]

Just now, Chicken Boo said:

 

I don't understand how eras come into play regarding the wonderlic.  

Players didnt prepare for the wonderlic, they formerly just took it cold.  Now pretty much everyone has copies of old tests, they take test exam after test exam to improve their score.

[Gugny]

26 minutes ago, dpberr said:

Out of curiosity, did you ever run your analysis on any other position?  I'm curious whether it'd apply to say middle linebacker or center.  I'm thinking of positions where you make the line calls and defensive calls.  I tend to assume centers and defensive play callers *would* score highly.  

 

I never have, but I think that would be super interesting and agree with your assumptions!

[JoPoy88]

12 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

One of the biggest issues I have had with the Wunderlic is how quickly these allegedly "secret" scores are publicized.  If I were a player,  I wouldnt want to be ridiculed for having a low test score.  That in itself is enough for the NFLPA is enough, imo, to get the NFL to can the tests.

That’s my thing - these supposedly confidential scores get leaked every single year by NFL staff and personnel, in part, I believe, to cover their a**es and give themselves an out for picking (or not picking) a certain player. Sorry but if the NFL and its teams can’t help themselves from being scumbags then the test gets axed.

 

I don’t know what the predictive value of the test is, nor do I really care. 

[SirAndrew]

I’d think talking with someone usually eliminates the need for a test to tell us if they’re intelligent. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

To think "native intelligence" doesnt play a  major part in pro QB success is naive.  The number of plays/auditbles/formations and instantaneous analysis they have to make is extraordinary.  Imagin Josh Allen with a room temperature IQ, i dont think he would be nearly the QB he is today, if for no other reason he can figure things out like how to be a good leader.  The NFL is littered with QBs with all the physical attributes but didnt have the mental acumen like Vince Young, Jarmercus Russel, JP Losman and on and on.  

 

Is intelligence the defining factor for a QB, obviously not but it certainly makes his job a lot easier.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

I've gone through this exercise multiple times over the years, so I'll just summarize what I believe (based on reality) to be true, re: the Wonderlic:

 

This is specific to QUARTERBACKS, beginning with the year 2000.

 

15 is the cutoff.  

 

A QB who scores 15 or lower WILL not have sustained success as an NFL starter.

A QB who scores 16 or higher MAY (not will) have sustained success as an NFL starter.

 

I maintain that this has been a useful tool in weeding out QBs that simply aren't that good.

 

And I know that Lamar Jackson has had lots of regular season success and he had a phenomenal MVP season.  But he has regressed since then and the Ravens have not been a legitimate Super Bowl contender ... which is what all teams want.

 

I know my opinion is controversial, but I've believed in it for years and no one will change my mind.

 

I've done the homework and made the lists in the past.  Not doing it anymore.

 

And before you chime in with "Jim Kelly got a 12," look at the years in scope.  Before you chime in with "Ryan Fitzpatrick scored over 40," look at what a score above 15 says above.

 

 

If you have a belief that “no one can change”, at that point it’s no longer an opinion supported by data - it is dogma, an article of faith

[Spiderweb]

2 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

No, Allen higher...at least according to this:

Wonderlic scores for 2018 QBs

Josh Allen: 37

Josh Rosen: 29

Sam Darnold: 28

Baker Mayfield: 25

Lamar Jackson: 13

 

Lamar's Wonderlic score matches his looks too!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

To think "native intelligence" doesnt play a  major part in pro QB success is naive.  The number of plays/auditbles/formations and instantaneous analysis they have to make is extraordinary.  Imagin Josh Allen with a room temperature IQ, i dont think he would be nearly the QB he is today, if for no other reason he can figure things out like how to be a good leader.  The NFL is littered with QBs with all the physical attributes but didnt have the mental acumen like Vince Young, Jarmercus Russel, JP Losman and on and on.  

 

Is intelligence the defining factor for a QB, obviously not but it certainly makes his job a lot easier.

 

I don’t think anyone would debate that intelligence plays a major role in pro football success.

 

I think the debate is whether the Wonderlic actually measures native intelligence, vs. a specific set of educational skills which may or may not be relevant to football

My understanding is that like the SAT, it’s been found to trend more towards the latter.

[T master]

1 hour ago, Purplebulldog said:

At least Vince Young will have a forever NFL record!

 

Didn't Fitz have the highest score on the test ?  

[purple haze]

2 hours ago, maddenboy said:

I dont like how Florio states his opinion here as if it were fact.  Stating that the wonderlic is irrelevant.  That's a stupid statement in itself.

 

There's 32 teams and lots of personnel on each team.  How can he possibly know how it is used.  

 

I disagree that it is irrelevant.  But if teams use it wrongly, that's better for the teams that use it correctly.  I think what he NFL is after here, is (1) stopping the scores from leaking and (2) possible liability later, for leaked scores.  Especially if there are statements regarding confidentiality that the nfl makes to the test takers.

What’s relevant about it?  Like any standard test it’s an amalgamation of facts someone, whomever they are, seem to be important.  Are they though?  And who decides?  It’s a pointless exercise.  Test players about football.  That’s what they’re going to be doing.  Remembering random facts isn’t necessarily an indicator of anything, even if the facts are ones most people know.

[K-9]

2 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

What’s the reason for it being eliminated?

If I had to guess, I’d say the league sees cultural bias in the test. Educators have been trumpeting that for decades about IQ tests, too. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

7 minutes ago, T master said:

 

Didn't Fitz have the highest score on the test ?  

I thought he wrote it!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

I read this speculation on why Lamar Jackson scored so much lower than the other QBs of his class: No agent.  It seems the agents coach the players up to the Wonderlic to the point that it no longer means anything.

 

Yep.  Although I personally believe Lamar and his mother were “crazy like a fox” with the whole draft process.  

 

I think they wanted Lamar to be drafted in the first round for the contract guarantees, but they actually did not want him to be drafted very high.  Why?  Because typically, being drafted high means you are gonna go to a bad team and there will be struggles.  Lamar worked on stuff that mattered to them, like improving his footwork and passing and his ability to assess a defense and call appropriate plays.  Lamar didn’t work on stuff that didn’t matter to them.

 

There were a whole pile of things at the time - the lack of prep for the Wonderlic and the low score, also Lamar’s instagram account had some eyebrow-raising stuff - nothing explicit but quoting dope-related lyrics and stuff like that ( @BadLandsMeanie drew this to my attention, I wasn’t following Lamar).  Nothing that would knock him out of the first round, but just enough to lower his stock a bit.

 

At the time there was various tsk-tsk-ing about how Jackson was costing himself draft slots and corresponding $$ that an agent could have helped them bring in, but I personally think Mama Jackson and Lamar felt he would get enough money on his first contract and have a better chance at a more lucrative 2nd contract if he went to a team with a proven coach, good players, and a winning culture in place.  The Ravens checked all the boxes.

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

So just look at the data above.  Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson are arguably the two best QB from the draft class - Lamar has already won league MVP and whether or not we agree, is heading to the pro bowl again.  The Ravens have been a playoff team Jackson’s first 3 seasons, and arguably would be one again if Jackson didn’t miss 4 games from week 15 to 17.

 

Next would be Baker Mayfield.  The Browns were a playoff team last year and arguably would be one again if Mayfield weren’t hurt.

 

Sam Darnold has been able to see the field in the NFL, albeit neither his TD to INT ratio, his completion %, nor his YPG look particularly promising.

Josh Rosen looks like a flat-out first-round Bust.

 

So being a Buffalo homer and ranking the QB in order of team contribution, we have  37-13-25-28-29

 

I don’t think you need an advanced stats degree to conclude that there isn’t a correlation between Wonderlic and football contribution.

Don't think the wonderlic is an end all be all

 

But there's usually a baseline that you need to hit especially at the quarterback position  ... There's a reason they always tested them

 

Very few modern quarterbacks have made it with a low score like Lamar..  yet his world class athleticism has allowed him to thrive.. it'd be interesting to see how he plays when he's no longer the best athlete on the field

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

29 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

To think "native intelligence" doesnt play a  major part in pro QB success is naive.  The number of plays/auditbles/formations and instantaneous analysis they have to make is extraordinary.  Imagin Josh Allen with a room temperature IQ, i dont think he would be nearly the QB he is today, if for no other reason he can figure things out like how to be a good leader.  The NFL is littered with QBs with all the physical attributes but didnt have the mental acumen like Vince Young, Jarmercus Russel, JP Losman and on and on.  

 

Is intelligence the defining factor for a QB, obviously not but it certainly makes his job a lot easier.

How much does intelligence inform decision making because imo, decision making is job one for quarterbacks. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

48 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Players didnt prepare for the wonderlic, they formerly just took it cold.  Now pretty much everyone has copies of old tests, they take test exam after test exam to improve their score.

I for one wouldn’t want to live in a world where someone can proactively work to improve the results they get on some metric that influences their career…  

what kind of message does that send? 

58 minutes ago, nucci said:

Not sure how it evaluates how players will perform in the NFL.

Processing speed I presume. 

[purple haze]

49 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Players didnt prepare for the wonderlic, they formerly just took it cold.  Now pretty much everyone has copies of old tests, they take test exam after test exam to improve their score.

Or they don’t.  We don’t know who actually prepares or the level of intensity of the preparation.  Many players and, people in general, don’t like school to begin with. We can’t assume all of these guys prepare or prepare the same way.  Ultimately, the test is irrelevant.  Basically, they’re getting pledged.  Eat a goldfish, drink this six pack, take the Wonderlic.  It has no bearing if they can play or not.

[Niagara Bill]

2 hours ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

What’s the reason for it being eliminated?

3 out of 5 players cannot read the question but their schools have high academic results.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yep.  Although I personally believe Lamar and his mother were “crazy like a fox” with the whole draft process.  

 

I think they wanted Lamar to be drafted in the first round for the contract guarantees, but they actually did not want him to be drafted very high.  Why?  Because typically, being drafted high means you are gonna go to a bad team and there will be struggles.  Lamar worked on stuff that mattered to them, like improving his footwork and passing and his ability to assess a defense and call appropriate plays.  Lamar didn’t work on stuff that didn’t matter to them.

 

There were a whole pile of things at the time - the lack of prep for the Wonderlic and the low score, also Lamar’s instagram account had some eyebrow-raising stuff - nothing explicit but quoting dope-related lyrics and stuff like that ( @BadLandsMeanie drew this to my attention, I wasn’t following Lamar).  Nothing that would knock him out of the first round, but just enough to lower his stock a bit.

 

At the time there was various tsk-tsk-ing about how Jackson was costing himself draft slots and corresponding $$ that an agent could have helped them bring in, but I personally think Mama Jackson and Lamar felt he would get enough money on his first contract and have a better chance at a more lucrative 2nd contract if he went to a team with a proven coach, good players, and a winning culture in place.  The Ravens checked all the boxes.

So, by 'sandbagging' the Wonderlic, and projecting a bit of 'bad boy', he accomplished exactly what he was looking for.

Meanwhile, Josh Rosen's off season tennis lessons aren't the draw he thought they might be.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, purple haze said:

What’s relevant about it?  Like any standard test it’s an amalgamation of facts someone, whomever they are, seem to be important.  Are they though?  And who decides?  It’s a pointless exercise.  Test players about football.  That’s what they’re going to be doing.  Remembering random facts isn’t necessarily an indicator of anything, even if the facts are ones most people know.

 

At least the sample Wonderlics I’ve seen on line are not an amalgam of facts, but it requires a degree of success at a certain type of education to do well at them.  

[RoyBatty is alive]

4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

I for one wouldn’t want to live in a world where someone can proactively work to improve the results they get on some metric that influences their career…  

what kind of message does that send? 

Processing speed I presume. 

What kind of message does it send?  You put some effort into it, study, take the test exams you will improve.  I see nothing wrong with that.  Do you look at SAT score or GPAs or are they just "metrics" to influence people careers?

 

What about the combine, why even have that.  So you spend weeks getting to a quicker 40 or high jump or  3 cone drill.  You don't run in straights lines or jump in your shorts in the NFL.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

What kind of message does it send?  You put some effort into it, study, take the test exams you will improve.  I see nothing wrong with that.  Do you look at SAT score or GPAs or are they just "metrics" to influence people careers?

 

What about the combine, why even have that.  So you spend weeks getting to a quicker 40 or high jump or  3 cone drill.  You don't run in straights lines or jump in your shorts in the NFL.

Did I forget the sarcasm font again….

 

of course people who study to do better on the wonderlic are demonstrating a positive attribute….

[K-9]

23 minutes ago, T master said:

 

Didn't Fitz have the highest score on the test ?  

That would be Pat McInally who had a perfect score. 
 

But I’ve heard that Fitz fudged one on purpose so he wouldn’t be seen as a nerd. 

[LeGOATski]

Seemed like a useful tool to me. Just another set of data points within the whole combine set.

 

Not about how high you can score, but whether you can succeed at not failing.

[T master]

1 minute ago, K-9 said:

That would be Pat McInally who had a perfect score. 
 

But I’ve heard that Fitz fudged one on purpose so he wouldn’t be seen as a nerd. 

 

That sounds like something Fitz would do 😂 ...

[RoyBatty is alive]

9 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Or they don’t.  We don’t know who actually prepares or the level of intensity of the preparation.  Many players and, people in general, don’t like school to begin with. We can’t assume all of these guys prepare or prepare the same way.  Ultimately, the test is irrelevant.  Basically, they’re getting pledged.  Eat a goldfish, drink this six pack, take the Wonderlic.  It has no bearing if they can play or not.

I didnt know I had to state the obvious.   Yes, I dont who prepares and to what extent. 

 

You think the test is irrelevant, fine that is your opinion.  You want to vilify the process and call it getting "pledged", fine by me, how is that different then the entire process with the Combine, meeting with team coaches, pro days, etc etc etc.

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Players didnt prepare for the wonderlic, they formerly just took it cold.  Now pretty much everyone has copies of old tests, they take test exam after test exam to improve their score.

 

Gotcha.

 

I still don't believe it makes as much of a difference as some think when it comes to playing quarterback.

 

Everyone wants to point at the lower scores, but I'd imagine there are more who score higher that are absolutely terrible at the position.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Chicken Boo

[purple haze]

2 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

I didnt know I had to state the obvious.   Yes, I dont who prepares and to what extent. 

 

You think the test is irrelevant, fine that is your opinion.  You want to vilify the process and call it getting "pledged", fine by me, how is that different then the entire process with the Combine, meeting with team coaches, pro days, etc etc etc.

The combine activities are football related activities; strength, agility, speed, quickness, flexibility; performing football related movements.  Meeting with coaches and going over football concepts/interviewing makes sense.  Pro days are similar.  If there were a test about different types of defensive concepts or offensive concepts, cool.

Asking about random facts?  Nah.  For what?  To see if they cared to prepare?  The players being invited to the combine speaks to a high level of play/dedication already.

[purple haze]

17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

At least the sample Wonderlics I’ve seen on line are not an amalgam of facts, but it requires a degree of success at a certain type of education to do well at them.  

Is that certain type of education one that is equal across the board?  And does that type of education have any bearing on the ability of the players to perform athletically or learn a playbook?  Seems to me the film and talks with coaches would reveal that info.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

24 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Don't think the wonderlic is an end all be all

 

But there's usually a baseline that you need to hit especially at the quarterback position  ... There's a reason they always tested them

 

Very few modern quarterbacks have made it with a low score like Lamar..  yet his world class athleticism has allowed him to thrive.. it'd be interesting to see how he plays when he's no longer the best athlete on the field

 

Could say the same about Josh - “will be interesting to see how he plays when he’s no longer an incredible athlete with elite escapability/ability to run”

John Harbaugh says of Lamar Jackson “he’s very intelligent”.  Now what’s the coach gonna say “he’s dumber than a bunch of rocks”? No, but at the same time, he doesn’t have to put that out there.

 

As far as the baseline - it’s not Wonderlic, but there’s an interesting anecdote about our own Isaiah McKenzie in Ty Dunne’s article

https://www.golongtd.com/p/the-buffalo-bills-secret-weapon-isaiah

When coaches discussed college with I-Mac, he said “I ain’t never got one good grade in my life”.  He went in to take the SAT cold, no prep, and scored a 700 which is rock bottom.  Then someone set him up with test prep courses where he learned some strategy (leave questions he didn’t know blank, answer questions he did know first), and his second score was a 1300.  (Then he got flagged because of the dramatic improvement in score and grades).

(IMHO from taking the practice Wonderlics on line, they are very pre-revision SAT like)

 

My points are:

1) sure, you can make a judgement about how much a kid wants something by whether they’re willing to put in the effort to improve at one of the hoops they have to jump through pre-draft. That’s fair.

2) when a score can be improved that dramatically by some test coaching and test prep, IMHO it’s pretty clear that it’s not measuring intrinsic intelligence at all, but rather a specific set of problem-solving and test-taking skills along with some basic education

3) I absolutely believe that a QB needs to have high intelligence and won’t succeed very well if he doesn’t, I’m just not persuaded the Wonderlic measures this.

 

IMHO, setting an arbitrary “baseline to hit” is sort of the same deal as setting a completion % baseline to hit and proclaiming (as was done for our Josh) that anyone who didn’t hit it had no chance to succeed as a QB in the NFL.  The problem with that logic is that it presumes all the candidates are coming from a certain comparable baseline - big college programs with a lot of talent around them, perhaps QB-friendly systems with high-completion-percentage throws.  So when you have a candidate from outside that comparable baseline (like Josh, playing in a pro-style offense with very little talent around him especially his Sr year) then all bets are off.  Then you get into intangibles like heart and effort and determination.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Is that certain type of education one that is equal across the board?  And does that type of education have any bearing on the ability of the players to perform athletically or learn a playbook?  Seems to me the film and talks with coaches would reveal that info.

 

IMHO, absolutely not “equal across the board”, and I think the answer to the second question is self-evident: if front offices and coaches truly believed the Wonderlic had bearing on player ability, they would fight tooth and nail to keep it.  I think FOs have a lot of data on how relevant the Wonderlic is for football ability, and that’s why it’s getting deep-6’d.

[RoyBatty is alive]

26 minutes ago, purple haze said:

The combine activities are football related activities; strength, agility, speed, quickness, flexibility; performing football related movements.  Meeting with coaches and going over football concepts/interviewing makes sense.  Pro days are similar.  If there were a test about different types of defensive concepts or offensive concepts, cool.

Asking about random facts?  Nah.  For what?  To see if they cared to prepare?  The players being invited to the combine speaks to a high level of play/dedication already.

Incorrect.

 

The Wonderlic is not an about random facts, it is not a history test.  It is about cognitive ability.  The ability to figure things out, the ability TO LEARN, the ability to be COACHED.

 

So you never answered the question, why do they combine at all, there is no running the 40 in shorts in the NFL.

[purple haze]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

IMHO, absolutely not “equal across the board”, and I think the answer to the second question is self-evident: if front offices and coaches truly believed the Wonderlic had bearing on player ability, they would fight tooth and nail to keep it.  I think FOs have a lot of data on how relevant the Wonderlic is for football ability, and that’s why it’s getting deep-6’d.

Exactly.  My questions were rhetorical.  I posed them for others who might see the questions and consider why the Wonderlic might not be as meaningful as they believe.  

[Freddie's Dead]

“We aim for dignity, respect and professionalism,” league executive Troy Vincent told the AP. “It’s that simple.”

 

This from the guy who broke JP Losman's leg in TC because JP "needed to be taught a lesson".  Troy Vincent went on to become the NFL Director of Player Safety.  You just can't make this ***** up.

[purple haze]

2 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Incorrect.

 

The Wonderlic is not an about random facts, it is not a history test.  It is about cognitive ability.  The ability to figure things out, the ability TO LEARN, the ability to be COACHED.

 

So you never answered the question, why do they combine at all, there is no running the 40 in shorts in the NFL.

I answered your question.  The activities are related to physical acumen.  Which are directly related to football.
 

the Wonderlic, in your opinion, does those things.  But does it really?   Why not a test about football related topics?  Wouldn’t the powers that be learn the same things about the players ?   Or has player performance over however many years in college/high school not given indications of the factors you list already?  So what’s the point of the Wonderlic If they can already suss out those factors through football acumen?

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 minute ago, Freddie's Dead said:

“We aim for dignity, respect and professionalism,” league executive Troy Vincent told the AP. “It’s that simple.”

 

This from the guy who broke JP Losman's leg in TC because JP "needed to be taught a lesson".  Troy Vincent went on to become the NFL Director of Player Safety.  You just can't make this ***** up.

Well they FAILED, repeatedly by leaking the scores every year so they wont have them anymore.