Fred Warner's New Deal - Is This Going To Be What Edmunds Is After?

[Orlando Tim]

6 hours ago, CaliBills said:

 agree, but if he has a break out year this coming season, he might ask for more.    He is above average athletic freak that makes mistakes and was injured last year.    

 

two pro-bowls already, I think if we sign him now, it won't be warner money but close.  Warner is a game changing type MLB, Edmunds is not there yet, but with a break out year could easily be.  

I agree with this so much it makes me wonder if I should root against him having a great year until the playoffs. If he is only great in the playoffs he is worth less right? Beane will have to work some magic.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

It's been very easy for some apologists on here to call any critique of Edmunds  "hate".

 

The tune will change if it's more of the same ol' leading up to either the signing of a second contract or free agency.

 

You can't have a non-playmaker earning $19M per year.😄 

You can say that again.  Hate = truth.  
 

I have a feeling that many of the apologists will change their tune after the season if 49 doesn’t improve dramatically.  14-15M is one thing, but 19M+ is a different realm of cap space.  Now that Warner is signed for 19M and Leonard will likely get the same if not more this situation has changed.  Byron Jones was never the best CB in league, but he was the highest paid.  Edmunds is in the same situation and one would expect that he’s looking to become the highest paid. You don’t have to be the best to be paid more than the best. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

 

I'm thinking he would be a good franchise tag candidate eventually if he is eligible.  If the Bills are looking for that extra year of confirmation.

[NewEra]

31 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I'm thinking he would be a good franchise tag candidate eventually if he is eligible.  If the Bills are looking for that extra year of confirmation.

Yeah, I could see us franchising him if he shows slight improvement the following 2 years.  If he shows regression, he shouldn’t be retained or traded.  If he shows great improvement, I could see them signing him to a huge extension after the season.  Either way, I think the smartest course of action will be to let him play out his 5 years and either franchise him (and possibility sign him long term), trade him or get compensatory picks for him.  

[Royale with Cheese]

14 hours ago, thurst44 said:

Why wouldn't he pay him if he has a season like people expect he might. He's the captain of the defense, a leader: if he balls out and you let him walk in FA, that sets a terrible example for the rest of the team. You do have to let good players go sometimes--more likely that will be Poyer and/or Hyde as they get into their 30s, not a (then) 24 or 25-year-old, 1st round pick, head of your defense. They traded up to draft him ideally to lead their defense for the next decade. If he plays this year like he did in the Ravens game, then he'll be worth whatever the going rate is for a top 5 linebacker. If he plays closer to this year (which he was hurt often during), then maybe they let him go.

 

At the very least, if they are dissatisfied, Beane will surely try to get something back for him.

I was referring more to be the highest paid ILB in the league.  He hasn’t shown he’s at that level.  I think he’s good but not elite.  Overpaying good players at the elite level gets you in trouble.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Royale with Cheese

[BuffBillsForLife]

Edmunds' agent will want a deal that puts Edmunds at the top of ILB contracts, and if he's doing his job as an agent that's to be expected.  Those pro bowls give him legitimacy in wanting that much money, and if he hits the open market someone will fork over the big bucks whether he's worth it or not.  Maybe Edmunds balls out over the next two years and is 1st team all-pro, if he does I'll be ecstatic.  But I highly doubt that so to me letting him walk instead of forking over 100m+ for an inside linebacker is the easiest decision in the world.  If he performs at the same level or slightly better as now I would tag him for a year though.

[Brand J]

Edmunds has elite physical traits, but his processor and instincts are average. I’d try to trade him after this year, barring a Josh Allen-like level of improvement. 

[TBBills]

12 hours ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Edmunds does have two pro bowls (I think) on his resume, but let’s be honest. We’d all choose Warner over Edmunds. With that being said, Edmunds will probably get around the same amount. 

TBH pro bowls mean nothing anymore. Tyrod Taylor made it to pro bowls... It's like a participation trophy. 

 

I do agree he will probably be looking for that amount. If he can take his play up one more notch he will easily get that. With him being so young still it won't be a waste of money as long as he can keep getting better.

 

He is still the youngest on the team.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by TBBills

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

It's been very easy for some apologists on here to call any critique of Edmunds  "hate".

 

The tune will change if it's more of the same ol' leading up to either the signing of a second contract or free agency.

 

You can't have a non-playmaker earning $19M per year.😄 

 

 

The reason some on here call critiques of Edmunds hate is because so much of the criticism of Edmunds has been over the top and unreasonable, and you've been leading the charge on that.

 

Not least with this insulting post, that as usual goes over the top and unreasonable on Edmunds.

 

 

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

You can say that again.  Hate = truth.  
 

 

Anyone who says "Hate = truth" understands neither.

 

 

 

As for the OP, sure Edmunds will be after a contract like this. You'd expect him to be "after" a contract like that. He certainly hasn't earned it yet, and he's made it clear that he expects more of himself.

 

This thread is a year too early. In a year he either will have put himself into the conversation for a contract like this, or he won't have.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, TBBills said:

TBH pro bowls mean nothing anymore. Tyrod Taylor made it to pro bowls... It's like a participation trophy. 

 

I do agree he will probably be looking for that amount. If he can take his play up one more notch he will easily get that. With him being so young still it won't be a waste of money as long as he can keep getting better.

 

He is still the youngest on the team.

 

 

 

I agree with most of your post here, but there's no comparison between Tyrod making the Pro Bowl and Edmunds doing it.

 

Tyrod made the Pro Bowl twice, as a sixth alternate and as a fourth alternate.

 

That's not what happened with Edmunds. Again, there's just no comparison there.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Thurman#1

[GunnerBill]

I think $19m per is too much for Warner frankly. And I think Warner is a fair tick better than Edmunds. 

 

So there is that. No. I would not pay Tremaine that money.

25 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

I agree with most of your post here, but there's no comparison between Tyrod making the Pro Bowl and Edmunds doing it.

 

Tyrod made the Pro Bowl twice, as a sixth alternate and as a fourth alternate.

 

That's not what happened with Edmunds. Again, there's just no comparison there.

 

Edmunds first pro bowl was as an alternate though. Ironic because that was after his best season. His pro bowl nod last year as an original selection said more about the linebacker play in the AFC than it did about Edmunds.

[colin]

edmunds can get that contract and perhaps a little more if he plays like he expects himself to play this coming season.  if our DL can improve and give him better looks, he has all the tools to do so.  if it's today, i let him walk for that contract (or even 20% less, frankly).  it will all play out though.

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

You can say that again.  Hate = truth.  
 

I have a feeling that many of the apologists will change their tune after the season if 49 doesn’t improve dramatically.  14-15M is one thing, but 19M+ is a different realm of cap space.  Now that Warner is signed for 19M and Leonard will likely get the same if not more this situation has changed.  Byron Jones was never the best CB in league, but he was the highest paid.  Edmunds is in the same situation and one would expect that he’s looking to become the highest paid. You don’t have to be the best to be paid more than the best. 

 

Leonard will get more than Warner. Then the question for the Bears (with Roquan) and the Bills (with Tremaine) is where do you fit those guys in. I don't think either of the first round guys have played as well as the 2nd and 3rd round guys but their contracts will come up a year later, the year the cap is supposed to properly rebound too so there is an inflationary factor. If either Roquan or Tremaine wants to reset the post Leonard market, then even allowing for inflation I would let them walk. Smith I'd be willing to go close to the Leonard money (though one year removed) but I don't know I'm comfortable slotting Tremaine in even at Warner money unless the cap really explodes and he plays better than even his 2019 season in 2021. 

[BarleyNY]

6 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Edmunds has elite physical traits, but his processor and instincts are average. I’d try to trade him after this year, barring a Josh Allen-like level of improvement. 

That’s a good plan IMO.  I’m not saying it (a big step forward) won’t happen, but I think we have seen what we are going to get from Edmunds.  I think some team will convince themselves that they can fix his inconsistencies and still get his splash plays and that team will pay him large.  If that happens then we should let him go rather than sign him to a top ILB contract.  Then we can use that money elsewhere. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by BarleyNY

[DCofNC]

11 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Are the Bills SB contenders without Edmunds?

As of this minute? No.  That said, they have him getting paid a high dollar contract already and could use that money to replace him with somebody who would not be a drop off.

[DCofNC]

4 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

That’s a good plan IMO.  I’m not saying it won’t happen, but I think we have seen what we are going to get from Edmunds.  I think some team will convince themselves that they can fix his inconsistencies and still get his splash plays and that team will pay him large.  If that happens then we should let him go rather than sign him to a top ILB contract.  Then we can use that money elsewhere. 

Dead on, he’s been an average starter with some athletic flashes.  You don’t spend 20M in cap space on that.  If he turns into the player the commentators make him sound like, great, pay him.  If he is what he is, let someone else pay him.  Remember Poz?  Same type of polarizing player, I couldn’t have been happier that somebody else jumped on that grenade of a contract.   People get attached to draft picks, it should be about performance.  Our best LBs in years have been TKO and Fletcher, both signings, not picks.  

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Edmunds first pro bowl was as an alternate though. Ironic because that was after his best season. His pro bowl nod last year as an original selection said more about the linebacker play in the AFC than it did about Edmunds.

 

 

 

Yes, a first alternate in 2019. Meaning best after Darius Leonard and Hightower, in his 2nd year. Top two last year, with an injury and with real problems at 1-tech, and still, losing to Darius Leonard and beating guys like Zach Cunningham and Schobert is not unimpressive.

 

That is in no way anywhere close to what happened with Tyrod.

 

 

 

I certainly agree that so far Edmunds hasn't yet earned a contract like that, though. Without question.

 

But people consistently saying ridiculous things like "he's an average starter," and talking about "his bad play," are nuts and show he's one of the designated scapegoats among this fanbase.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Ethan in Cleveland]

14 hours ago, boater said:

The elephant in the room is the Josh Allen extension. No way we can do both Allen and Edmunds. Pick who you want to keep, pay the man and politely show the other one out the door.

 

I know who I would pick.

Seattle paid Wilson and Wagner. They can pay for both. The cap will go back up.

 

That said my feelings on Edmunds are well documented.  He has been given a pass for his bad play because of his age and injury. No excuses this year. He has to play much better to earn an extension. 

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yes, a first alternate in 2019. Meaning best after Darius Leonard and Hightower, in his 2nd year. Top two last year, with an injury and with real problems at 1-tech, and still, losing to Darius Leonard and beating guys like Zach Cunningham and Schobert is not unimpressive.

 

That is in no way anywhere close to what happened with Tyrod.

 

 

 

I certainly agree that so far Edmunds hasn't yet earned a contract like that, though. Without question.

 

But people consistently saying ridiculous things like "he's an average starter," shows he's one of the designated scapegoats among this fanbase.

 

Zach Cunningham and Schobert are both overpaid too. EDIT: and worth saying both played on teams that finished way below .500. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by GunnerBill

[Mr. WEO]

25 minutes ago, DCofNC said:

As of this minute? No.  That said, they have him getting paid a high dollar contract already and could use that money to replace him with somebody who would not be a drop off.

 

I would argue they are a SB contender right now if hw was off the roster or out for the season.

[Putin]

14 hours ago, boater said:

The elephant in the room is the Josh Allen extension. No way we can do both Allen and Edmunds. Pick who you want to keep, pay the man and politely show the other one out the door.

 

I know who I would pick.

Who ? 

[DCofNC]

10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I would argue they are a SB contender right now if hw was off the roster or out for the season.

Most likely, but it’s a hole to fill and one weak area for this team is STILL LB depth, the coaches must have a much higher opinion of the guys on the roster than I do, because they have flat out ignored it for 2 years straight.

[thurst44]

7 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I was referring more to be the highest paid ILB in the league.  He hasn’t shown he’s at that level.  I think he’s good but not elite.  Overpaying good players at the elite level gets you in trouble.

He's been pretty close to elite to a lot of people. That said, I agree. I read your post as "sometimes you let good players go" with no caveat as to if he does have an elite season next year which there are many reasons to believe is possible. If I was wrong, I apologize.

 

I'm just saying there's very good signs (i.e. Ravens game) that Edmunds can BE that elite LB they drafted him to be and will show that this year. If that's the case, there's no way they don't pay the man, and so far, this group of players has taken reasonable contracts to be a part of what's being built in Buffalo (to be the best version of themselves)

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The reason some on here call critiques of Edmunds hate is because so much of the criticism of Edmunds has been over the top and unreasonable, and you've been leading the charge on that.

 

Not least with this insulting post, that as usual goes over the top and unreasonable on Edmunds.

 

 

 

Anyone who says "Hate = truth" understands neither.

 

 

 

As for the OP, sure Edmunds will be after a contract like this. You'd expect him to be "after" a contract like that. He certainly hasn't earned it yet, and he's made it clear that he expects more of himself.

 

This thread is a year too early. In a year he either will have put himself into the conversation for a contract like this, or he won't have.

 

Talk about a ridiculous blanket statement.

[thurst44]

12 hours ago, I am the egg man said:

Edmunds can ask for whatever he wants, but if it's Warner money, I think a handshake and a thank you for service would be in order.

Even if he ups his game to be in the consideration for DPoY as some experts have speculated he could?

[colin]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yes, a first alternate in 2019. Meaning best after Darius Leonard and Hightower, in his 2nd year. Top two last year, with an injury and with real problems at 1-tech, and still, losing to Darius Leonard and beating guys like Zach Cunningham and Schobert is not unimpressive.

 

That is in no way anywhere close to what happened with Tyrod.

 

 

 

I certainly agree that so far Edmunds hasn't yet earned a contract like that, though. Without question.

 

But people consistently saying ridiculous things like "he's an average starter," and talking about "his bad play," are nuts and show he's one of the designated scapegoats among this fanbase.

 

 

 

lol, you aren't wrong but i had to read the not unimpressive bit twice.  im like, ya so he's not as good as leanard as of last season, but cunningham is on like 15 a year and edmunds is better, WHAT ARE WE SAYING HERE!?!?

[Putin]

This is basically Edmonds contract year he needs to show up big time this year , and become a difference maker  if he wants to be paid like the top 3 LB is just that simple ...

[Beast]

If Edmunds was smart that is what he will at least ask for. 

 

I'm a big Edmunds fan but paying a MLB that much money is not the smartest decision a franchise can make, IMO.

[thurst44]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

But people consistently saying ridiculous things like "he's an average starter," and talking about "his bad play," are nuts and show he's one of the designated scapegoats among this fanbase.

My favorite is he "never makes a big play." He may not rack up stats (yet), but I've re-watched games and see so many examples. He sacked a guy in the end zone for a safety.

I also don't get the "lack of instincts" tag. He's captaining a lot of the defensive schemes, and led a top 3 D two years ago. Last year was ridiculous, so I'll give them a pass on the middle-of-the-league defense. Maybe when you think he's showing "bad instincts" he's actually doing what he's supposed to do?

[appoo]

One thing to consider is that the Mike is the most important position in McDermott's 4-2-5 system. You need a real athlete that covers a huge amount ground, plays the run really well, while requiring a lot of mental ability and memory.

 

The other thing here is we have the odd case of a movie being a lot more liked by the Actors, directors and professional critics than the movie goers. Have a feeling that the coach and front office rate Edmunds as highly, if not more, than Werner.

 

Basically, I'm saying he's gonne get paid, and he's gonna get paid by the Bills.

[Bigantall]

18 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

As of NOW it’s a NO for me. Let’s see what he does next year. He needs to produce more turnovers and sacks to earn that kind of money. He’s a borderline top 10 MLB, but he has the ability to be great. Is potential alone worth such a big contract? Sometimes. This is not a slight against Edmunds. I fully expect him to take a leap next year. Next on my **** list is Ed Oliver. That’s for another time & another thread.

It's no for me also did anyone look closely at the the play in the second round against Baltimore Edmonds was actually beat on that play where it was intercepted he's not a good pass defender and he gets pushed around alot and hits the wrong holes 

[JaCrispy]

2 hours ago, thurst44 said:

Even if he ups his game to be in the consideration for DPoY as some experts have speculated he could?

Just means we get a higher draft pick for him next offseason...👍

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, appoo said:

One thing to consider is that the Mike is the most important position in McDermott's 4-2-5 system. You need a real athlete that covers a huge amount ground, plays the run really well, while requiring a lot of mental ability and memory.

 

The other thing here is we have the odd case of a movie being a lot more liked by the Actors, directors and professional critics than the movie goers. Have a feeling that the coach and front office rate Edmunds as highly, if not more, than Werner.

 

Basically, I'm saying he's gonne get paid, and he's gonna get paid by the Bills.

Edmunds only does one of those listed skills well. He covers ground. He plays the run poorly at best and his ability to diagnose plays quickly seems quite lacking. I have no idea what memory has to do with playing MLB.  

I hope he plays to an All-pro level this year.  Nothing would make me happier.  But the tape shows he played poorly last year.  None of us know if that was injury related or not.  He had no surgery in the off-season so it would be easy to surmise that whatever the injury was it healed at some point.  It may have hampered him all season long.  We will never know.  

He appears to be a guy that has all the tools to be a truly great player.  There are many guys that are physically gifted that never reach their potential.  I'm going into 2021 with an open mind when evaluating his play.  

[appoo]

Just now, Ethan in Portland said:

Edmunds only does one of those listed skills well. He covers ground. He plays the run poorly at best and his ability to diagnose plays quickly seems quite lacking. I have no idea what memory has to do with playing MLB.  

I hope he plays to an All-pro level this year.  Nothing would make me happier.  But the tape shows he played poorly last year.  None of us know if that was injury related or not.  He had no surgery in the off-season so it would be easy to surmise that whatever the injury was it healed at some point.  It may have hampered him all season long.  We will never know.  

He appears to be a guy that has all the tools to be a truly great player.  There are many guys that are physically gifted that never reach their potential.  I'm going into 2021 with an open mind when evaluating his play.  

 

And this is what I mean about my 2nd paragraph. He's been a pro-bowler, he's pretty highly rated by NFL evaluators, his peers seem to respect him, but Bills fans largely seem to think he's not very good.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think $19m per is too much for Warner frankly. And I think Warner is a fair tick better than Edmunds. 

 

So there is that. No. I would not pay Tremaine that money.

 

Edmunds first pro bowl was as an alternate though. Ironic because that was after his best season. His pro bowl nod last year as an original selection said more about the linebacker play in the AFC than it did about Edmunds.

 

$19M is too much for ANY ILB/MLB in todays game.    It's good to have a great one..........but you don't need one of those to win SB's.

 

FWIW...........the people who downplay Tyrod Taylor for just being an "alternate" don't realize that the Pro Bowl that year was not an AFC/NFC vote........it was an ALL NFL team..

 

Tyrod was technically an alternate but he was actually one of only 2 AFC QB's selected...........6 of the 8 selected were NFC QB's.

 

His season was very much like Edmunds' last year.........he made it because the conference didn't have a lot of good players at his position.

 

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, appoo said:

 

And this is what I mean about my 2nd paragraph. He's been a pro-bowler, he's pretty highly rated by NFL evaluators, his peers seem to respect him, but Bills fans largely seem to think he's not very good.

Fans in general don’t have the greatest talent evaluation skills. The ‘tape’ on Edmunds last year was mixed but he certainly didn’t play ‘poorly’ as suggested by poster you responded to.

[appoo]

38 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

$19M is too much for ANY ILB/MLB in todays game.    It's good to have a great one..........but you don't need one of those to win SB's.

 

FWIW...........the people who downplay Tyrod Taylor for just being an "alternate" don't realize that the Pro Bowl that year was not an AFC/NFC vote........it was an ALL NFL team..

 

Tyrod was technically an alternate but he was actually one of only 2 AFC QB's selected...........6 of the 8 selected were NFC QB's.

 

His season was very much like Edmunds' last year.........he made it because the conference didn't have a lot of good players at his position.

 

 

Think Devin White was essential to the Bucs beating the Chief. The pass rush was tremendous, but White was ridiculously good that game

[H2o]

5 minutes ago, appoo said:

 

Think Devin White was essential to the Bucs beating the Chief. The pass rush was tremendous, but White was ridiculously good that game

He should have had an INT as well, but the ref called it incomplete. You could also make the argument for SB MVP. Like I said in a previous post in this thread, that guy is just cut from a different cloth than Edmunds. 

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Zach Cunningham and Schobert are both overpaid too. EDIT: and worth saying both played on teams that finished way below .500. 

 

 

Not really worth saying, IMO, about their teams being bad. Both guys are indeed on teams that finished way below .500. 

 

Signing those guys to those contracts are probably somewhere around the 30th most relevant reasons for those teams being bad.

 

And I disagree those guys are overpaid. I mean, yeah, in the sense that most good players signing second contracts are overpaid by the standards of the year that contract was agreed on, sure. Most good players sign contracts that rank them higher in terms of money than their level of play would indicate. Equally, though, in the later years they're often bargains as the cap continues to rise. That's what both of these guys look like.

 

Cunningham is going into his fifth year, he's visibly improving, and his contract was for $14.5M per year. A year or two down the line and this contract will probably put him in the 20s or 30s for LBs. It's a very reasonable 2nd contract for a very good player. At $10.75M/yr., Schobert is the 24th highest. 

 

Both pretty reasonable, particularly with contracts likely to explode in 2022. 

 

 

4 hours ago, NewEra said:

Talk about a ridiculous blanket statement.

 

 

Blanket? No. I didn't say everyone does this, or anything like it. It's a group and it's wildly obvious who they are. 

 

Ridiculous? If only it were so. It's unfortunately right on the mark for many on here. Around the league he's seen as an excellent player on the rise, though certainly not elite. Here there's a group of people who seem to pick two or three guys to hate and go at them.

 

He's one of them, for this group.

 

 

EDIT: Wait, did I misunderstand you? You are the guy who said, "Hate = Truth"? And I'm the one being ridiculous and using blanket statements?

 

Good lord, that qualifies for the rare double face palm. No small achievement.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, colin said:

 

 

 

lol, you aren't wrong but i had to read the not unimpressive bit twice.  im like, ya so he's not as good as leanard as of last season, but cunningham is on like 15 a year and edmunds is better, WHAT ARE WE SAYING HERE!?!?

 

 

Sorry. You're right, it doesn't read so clear. My fault. Bad writing.