Bills opening stadium discussions with NYS and Erie County

[Saint Doug]

Why exactly is the NFL demanding a “new” stadium? I don’t understand the economics begins building a new stadium versus the existing one. It’s not that a new stadium will fit more butts in the seats. 

[jimmy10]

51 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Connect the Dots.  
 

West of Rochester and east of Lake Erie.  
 

just ask @DC Tom

LeRoy? Sign me up, I’d be there in 15 minutes. 

[BigDingus]

13 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Who’s “we”?

 

"We" the Bills & Bills fans.

It's pretty normal at this point in conversation to refer to your team as "we." But if it bothers you, just replace it with "they," and the point is the same

 

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

"We" the Bills & Bills fans.

It's pretty normal at this point in conversation to refer to your team as "we." But if it bothers you, just replace it with "they," and the point is the same

 

 

 "Bite the bullet, take the hit now, and foot the bill for a new venue so we can avoid throwing more money away down the line."

 

Why should Bills fans be stuck paying for this?  That should bother anyone.

 

Leave the fans out of that "we".  Non-fan taxpayers as well.

[HOUSE]

I heard construction this morning, Main Street in Batavia

 

[RobbRiddick]

Words can't express how cool this is

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFAyTbllkxQ

[Mr Info]

1 hour ago, HOUSE said:

I heard construction this morning, Main Street in Batavia

 

Nah, that’s for the new, regional airport.

[Mat68]

20 hours ago, Saint Doug said:

Why exactly is the NFL demanding a “new” stadium? I don’t understand the economics begins building a new stadium versus the existing one. It’s not that a new stadium will fit more butts in the seats. 

Basicly 500 mil brings Buffalo to bottom third in stadium quality.  For another 500 mil they probably have a top 10 or 5 stadium.  Instead of a frat party they can make the in stadium experiance better.  As much as tailgating got us through the 20 years of suffering the league and Pegulas are not a fan of it.  

 

To answer the economics are little to any impact.  Imo having a nice stadium to an owner is the same as having a franchise qb.  Also, a Billionaire doesnt want to be told by anyone that something he has is outdated...

Edited April 4, 2021 by Mat68

[PromoTheRobot]

Something that @Kirby Jacksonpointed out that matters here: you can't create a new pricing structure without a new facility. That alone makes a new stadium a given. 

[Augie]

17 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Something that @Kirby Jacksonpointed out that matters here: you can't create a new pricing structure without a new facility. That alone makes a new stadium a given. 

 

Those who are getting emotional about the old stadium I love may be disappointed. I see this ending with a new stadium, probably downtown. One guy’s guess. With or without Kirby’s info, it makes too much sense to ignore. 

[Matt_In_NH]

On 4/3/2021 at 10:53 PM, BigDingus said:

 

"We" the Bills & Bills fans.

It's pretty normal at this point in conversation to refer to your team as "we." But if it bothers you, just replace it with "they," and the point is the same

 

I think the point is where does the money come from?   

[haroldwaide]

With a good chunk of infrastructure needed fir a new stadium all ready in place in OP it doesn't make sense to start new someplace else.  Plus, they've had 47 years to study traffic at that location.  Always a plus, in my opinion.

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, haroldwaide said:

With a good chunk of infrastructure needed fir a new stadium all ready in place in OP it doesn't make sense to start new someplace else.  Plus, they've had 47 years to study traffic at that location.  Always a plus, in my opinion.

Not intended to be too argumentative: but if an NFL city’s downtown road infrastructure can’t handle the traffic from a 65,000 seat stadium when virtually the entire crowd ‘car pools’ to the event on a Sunday afternoon ...then it isn’t an NFL city. Downtown Buffalo’s road system will be fine. 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, haroldwaide said:

With a good chunk of infrastructure needed fir a new stadium all ready in place in OP it doesn't make sense to start new someplace else.  Plus, they've had 47 years to study traffic at that location.  Always a plus, in my opinion.

 

One reason to replace what we have is what we have is getting old. I know I was surprised to learn that Highmark (meh) Stadium is older than War Memorial was when it was replaced. And those of us old enough to remember that dump believed it was built by the Romans.

 

But the real reason for a new stadium is money. It's why the NFL has been pushing for one for what seems like forever. As far as the league is concerned, Bills tickets are too cheap. And you can't simply double prices in your current stadium. You have to build a new palace.

 

And it's more than just ticket prices. Other than charging you for parking, teams don't make money off tailgating. Instead of acres of people eating food they brought with them, replace it with bars and restaurants in and around your new palace, some of which the team owner might have a stake in.

 

So get ready for change.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Buffalo_Stampede]

On 4/3/2021 at 7:41 PM, Saint Doug said:

Why exactly is the NFL demanding a “new” stadium? I don’t understand the economics begins building a new stadium versus the existing one. It’s not that a new stadium will fit more butts in the seats. 

One thing to remember is the NFL shares some revenues like TV deals. Basically that shared revenue covers player costs. There is a lot of money being shared. 

 

So what I'm trying to say is the Buffalo Bills likely wouldn't survive without shared revenue. So that's part of the reason why there is pressure on the Bills to get this done. They have to keep up with the league. Bills need to increase their revenue. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Here's what I think happens. The Bills keep their practice facilities and offices in OP, probably add to it. They build a closed roof stadium in downtown Buffalo. 

 

[SoCal Deek]

I’ve posted this before. The Bills have an opportunity to provide a completely different game day experience. One that fits their tail gating tradition and small city feel. A really creative design team would construct a new, modest, smaller capacity, open air, but covered seat stadium in Orchard Park that would have parking facility amenities to reinforce the tailgating experience. Then, simply charge more for parking and people would pay it. Large parking lot food, restroom, video, etc venues would make the pre and post game experience truly unique to WNY and very fitting to the Buffalo experience.

Edited April 5, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[CountDorkula]

14 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ve posted this before. The Bills have an opportunity to provide a completely different game day experience. One that fits their tail gating tradition and small city feel. A really creative design team would construct a new, modest, smaller capacity, open air, but covered seat stadium in Orchard Park that would have parking facility amenities to reinforce the tailgating experience. Then, simply charge more for parking and people would pay it. Large parking lot food, restroom, video, etc venues would make the pre and post game experience truly unique to WNY and very fitting to the Buffalo experience.

 

The only people who want to keep the tailgating tradition as is are the fans.

 

The Bills and the NFL want no part of it. It makes them no money and does nothing for "The NFL image"

 

I understand it from the NFL point of view. When someone inevitably breaks their neck or back, the NFL and the Bills are going to come in hard.

[4_kidd_4]

At this point, I don’t really care what happens.

 

I would prefer to stay in OP, but I am a throwback traditionalist type. That said, I had plenty of fun out there as a little kid in the 80’s, as a teen/college guy in the 90’s, and well into my adult life as a season ticket holder. For most of the drought years it wasn’t even about the game, but more about the fellas and the food and the bustin chops at the tailgate. So many good memories with good friends and family.

 

If it all changes it changes, I’m sure the next generation will make their own way, one way or the other.

 

But whatever happens, I hope they keep public money out of it. Let the billionaires club foot their own bill.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

48 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ve posted this before. The Bills have an opportunity to provide a completely different game day experience. One that fits their tail gating tradition and small city feel. A really creative design team would construct a new, modest, smaller capacity, open air, but covered seat stadium in Orchard Park that would have parking facility amenities to reinforce the tailgating experience. Then, simply charge more for parking and people would pay it. Large parking lot food, restroom, video, etc venues would make the pre and post game experience truly unique to WNY and very fitting to the Buffalo experience.

Lol at the covered seat part. The Bills have the worst wind of any team. Covered seats isn't helping much. 

 

Wherever it is built, cover the whole stadium. 

[SoCal Deek]

32 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

 

The only people who want to keep the tailgating tradition as is are the fans.

The Bills and the NFL want no part of it. It makes them no money and does nothing for "The NFL image"

I understand it from the NFL point of view. When someone inevitably breaks their neck or back, the NFL and the Bills are going to come in hard.

With all due respect, I don't think you're thinking outside of the box here enough. (And, if the Bills Ownership wanted to crack down, they could do it today.)  But with that said with a little creativity they could make the experience safer and better by making it more organized, and charge extra for it at the same time.

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Lol at the covered seat part. The Bills have the worst wind of any team. Covered seats isn't helping much. 

 

Wherever it is built, cover the whole stadium. 

A few of you know from my other posts over the years, I'm an architect. Yes, you can certainly design for the winds! And having substantially more covered seats would make the stadium experience a whole lot better for the fans. I'm not voting one way or the other, but the challenges are not that great. Someone will eventually make the decision. Inside or outside, suburbs or downtown.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

With all due respect, I don't think you're thinking outside of the box here enough. (And, if the Bills Ownership wanted to crack down, they could do it today.)  But with that said with a little creativity they could make the experience safer and better by making it more organized, and charge extra for it at the same time.

A few of you know from my other posts over the years, I'm an architect. Yes, you can certainly design for the winds! And having substantially more covered seats would make the stadium experience a whole lot better for the fans. I'm not voting one way or the other, but the challenges are not that great. Someone will eventually make the decision. Inside or outside, suburbs or downtown.

How would you design for the winds? Why not just a closed roof? I've literally been in the stadium with sideways rain. 

 

Even on gorgeous days though that wind can be 15mph. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

How would you design for the winds? Why not just a closed roof? I've literally been in the stadium with sideways rain. 

 

Even on gorgeous days though that wind can be 15mph. 

I'm not talking about retrofitting Rich Stadium. That would be much harder given the shape of the upper deck. But, if you had a more consistent upper level, you can shield the stadium from wind and rain. There are many examples all over Europe. It rains all of the time in London and yet in almost every stadium the fans go the match and sit under cover. The field is open to the elements.  And, yes you could cover the field, and make the entire place indoors, but that has a very different feel to it. Again, I'm not voting here! I'm just saying as an Architect, this is just a design problem that you work around. The Bills Ownership will task the Architects with the features that they want, and the Architects will make it happen.

[CountDorkula]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

I'm not talking about retrofitting Rich Stadium. That would be much harder given the shape of the upper deck. But, if you had a more consistent upper level, you can shield the stadium from wind and rain. There are many examples all over Europe. It rains all of the time in London and yet in almost every stadium the fans go the match and sit under cover. The field is open to the elements.  And, yes you could cover the field, and make the entire place indoors, but that has a very different feel to it. Again, I'm not voting here! I'm just saying as an Architect, this is just a design problem that you work around. The Bills Ownership will task the Architects with the features that they want, and the Architects will make it happen.

 

I don't understand the football needs the elements portion.

 

The Bills finally have a passing attack that is up there with the best in the league. Id rather not have that neutralized by wind, rain, snow etc.

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, CountDorkula said:

 

I don't understand the football needs the elements portion.

 

The Bills finally have a passing attack that is up there with the best in the league. Id rather not have that neutralized by wind, rain, snow etc.

There's something to be said for that as well.  But as Architects, we don't make those decisions for our Clients. We're trained to listen to their goals/desires and then build upon them.  Having been to dozens of stadiums both here and abroad, the difference between the outdoor and indoor experience is significant (although Minneapolis comes the closest to replicating outdoors). I'm anxious to attend a game at the new SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles. That is about as close to being outdoors (in fact it isn't really indoors) in a covered, sunlit, controlled environment as you're going to get. 

[RiotAct]

34 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Regardless of who finances the stadium, WE the Fans, will pay dearly.

true that. But, better to finance it through significant ticket price increases or even PSLs, then put the taxpayer on the hook when local and state finances are already a mess.

[Mr. WEO]

53 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Regardless of who finances the stadium, WE the Fans, will pay dearly.

 

 

If it's completely privately financed? 

 

Nope.

[PromoTheRobot]

20 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

true that. But, better to finance it through significant ticket price increases or even PSLs, then put the taxpayer on the hook when local and state finances are already a mess.

 

You can't get around the fact pro sports are expensive and a luxury.

[CountDorkula]

49 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

true that. But, better to finance it through significant ticket price increases or even PSLs, then put the taxpayer on the hook when local and state finances are already a mess.

If the new NYS bill passes we wont have to worry.

 

NYC is going to become a shell of itself with the people and businesses leaving.

 

NYS is in serious trouble.

[Boatdrinks]

49 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

If the new NYS bill passes we wont have to worry.

 

NYC is going to become a shell of itself with the people and businesses leaving.

 

NYS is in serious trouble.

Great point.  I do understand the principle of not wanting tax dollars used for the Bills / sports. However, we live in the real world and are not going to reinvent stadium deals as we know them. Of course, we as fans do not get to vote on this stadium thing. I do wonder how many folks objecting on such grounds have contributed to so many far more awful decisions in this state through their actual votes. Much worse decisions than the Bills getting some funding when it’s their turn. 

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Great point.  I do understand the principle of not wanting tax dollars used for the Bills / sports. However, we live in the real world and are not going to reinvent stadium deals as we know them. Of course, we as fans do not get to vote on this stadium thing. I do wonder how many folks objecting on such grounds have contributed to so many far more awful decisions in this state through their actual votes. Much worse decisions than the Bills getting some funding when it’s their turn. 

 

 

Like the "Buffalo Billion"?  Most legislatures will point to that disaster and say no to more money for something as trivial as another stadium.

 

Which state funding decisions did fans vote on?

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

I don’t mean directly as in a referendum, but rather via their poor choices at the polls in November. This is a Bills forum and thread after all, but it’s worth wondering in that context. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, BUFFALOBART said:

For season ticket holders??? ' Trickle Down Economics', will say otherwise...

 

 

Season ticket holders will pay more of course--they are the primary beneficiaries of a fancy new stadium outside of the team.

 

But that's a tiny sliver of the total number of fans.  The rest of the fans will only pay more if they go to a game.  Those watching at home/bar/etc---No change, if Pegula pays for the stadium without public money.  I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say  fans will "pay dearly".

[DrDawkinstein]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Season ticket holders will pay more of course--they are the primary beneficiaries of a fancy new stadium outside of the team.

 

But that's a tiny sliver of the total number of fans.  The rest of the fans will only pay more if they go to a game.  Those watching at home/bar/etc---No change, if Pegula pays for the stadium without public money.  I'm not sure what you're talking about when you say  fans will "pay dearly".

 

I like how you are in here pushing the idea of "an open-air stadium, paid for 100% by the Pegulas".

 

Sounds totally realistic. Good luck with that.

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I like how you are in here pushing the idea of "an open-air stadium, paid for 100% by the Pegulas".

 

Sounds totally realistic. Good luck with that.

 

I'm "pushing for" no public funds for a billionaire's new home.  All taxpayers should be pushing for the same thing. 

 

I don't therefore have a preference domed or not. 

 

They can stay in the perfectly functional stadium they are in now.  Pegs can spring for a doll-up of the place if he wants.

[haroldwaide]

5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

One reason to replace what we have is what we have is getting old. I know I was surprised to learn that Highmark (meh) Stadium is older than War Memorial was when it was replaced. And those of us old enough to remember that dump believed it was built by the Romans.

 

But the real reason for a new stadium is money. It's why the NFL has been pushing for one for what seems like forever. As far as the league is concerned, Bills tickets are too cheap. And you can't simply double prices in your current stadium. You have to build a new palace.

 

And it's more than just ticket prices. Other than charging you for parking, teams don't make money off tailgating. Instead of acres of people eating food they brought with them, replace it with bars and restaurants in and around your new palace, some of which the team owner might have a stake in.

 

So get ready for change.

 

 

I'm certainly not advocating fir keeping the Ralph, or whatever its called these days.  I'm saying it makes more economic sense to stay in OP and use some if the money that would have been spent on infrastructure towards the stadium instead.

[FarrellsFinest]

I hope its a Dome! Players hate playing in bad weather. It even hurts when its time to bring in free agents. Stats are effected as well.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, haroldwaide said:

I'm certainly not advocating fir keeping the Ralph, or whatever its called these days.  I'm saying it makes more economic sense to stay in OP and use some if the money that would have been spent on infrastructure towards the stadium instead.

 

Unless studies show there is more revenue to be made in the long run locating in downtown.

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, FarrellsFinest said:

I hope its a Dome! Players hate playing in bad weather. It even hurts when its time to bring in free agents. Stats are effected as well.

I’m sure New England, Pittsburgh and Green Bay would all beg to differ there. They’ve all been super successful for decades despite playing outdoors in the winter. 

[corta765]

22 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m sure New England, Pittsburgh and Green Bay would all beg to differ there. They’ve all been super successful for decades despite playing outdoors in the winter. 

 

I read the stadium report Populous did a few years ago. The major reason for indoor is the amount of events you can do and host like doubles as opposed to out door. If you are going to spend that much money I'd rather have 55-60 things happening a year as opposed to the 20-25 you get outdoor.

5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

There's something to be said for that as well.  But as Architects, we don't make those decisions for our Clients. We're trained to listen to their goals/desires and then build upon them.  Having been to dozens of stadiums both here and abroad, the difference between the outdoor and indoor experience is significant (although Minneapolis comes the closest to replicating outdoors). I'm anxious to attend a game at the new SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles. That is about as close to being outdoors (in fact it isn't really indoors) in a covered, sunlit, controlled environment as you're going to get. 

 

I did Miami pre Canapy and post Canapy and it was like a different stadium. Even though it was like 80% capacity, with the Canapy the sound reverberated tenfold more then the night game I went to without it.

 

Def an interesting difference to have experienced.