Feliciano: "I don't see myself going anywhere else. I see myself as a Bill next year."

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Bills have been scouting centers also. 

 

I'm not a trenches guy so I rely on podcasts and some posters on here to understand the X's and O's.

 

What I'm hearing is Morse isn't a great fit for the running game.  He's a pin and pull guy...so it seems to be a fit mismatch. 

 

I think he's a good center but maybe better for another team.

[Big Turk]

42 minutes ago, NewEra said:

that was a big time halftime adjustment.  We were in trouble without a fix.  For whatever reason, I thought Hayward was lined up opposite Boettger for the majority of the first half....was it Feliciano?

 

I forgot Feliciano is playing RG...I always remember him playing LG. You are right, it was Boettiger

Edited February 12, 2021 by Big Turk

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Bills have been scouting centers also. 

 

Yea even if Morse is here for 2021 I think he is gone after it. A young center would not be a stupid move. 

[NewEra]

“I don’t see myself going anywhere else”....until my agent shows Beane the market value on Spotrac and Beane laughs at him and tells him that the highest he’s going is 4M aav....almost half of his suggested (and ludicrous) market value. 
 

that’s where his tune changes imo

[Acattack15]

I do like Creed Humphrey from Oklahoma. Quality + battle tested Center in the draft

 

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

20 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I don't want to cut him.  I just think it's going to happen.  

Do we save anything significant cutting Morse? 
 

The only thing that scares me about Morse is that he is one more knock on the head from retirement most likely.  Feliciano could be a cheaper option move him to centre. Plug Ford back in at one guard spot?

 

Im not saying it’s the best move but maybe financially beneficial to find money for other areas.

 

[DrDawkinstein]

5 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

Do we save anything significant cutting Morse? 
 

The only thing that scares me about Morse is that he is one more knock on the head from retirement most likely.  Feliciano could be a cheaper option move him to centre. Plug Ford back in at one guard spot?

 

Im not saying it’s the best move but maybe financially beneficial to find money for other areas.

 

 

Yes. Just over $5M this year, and $11M next year.

Edited February 12, 2021 by DrDawkinstein

[machine gun kelly]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

My bold prediction is Morse is cut.  Feliciano moves to center.

We sign at least one guard in FA/or draft one high that's starting material, I would think probably a bigger body guard.  Ford/Boettger/FA/Draft pick battle for two starting spots.

Royale, you’re normally on it and this doesn’t surprise me.  My guess and I have nothing to back it up is Feliciano moves to Center, they use Ford at LG, cut Morse and most likely Brown (even though I don’t like it as I’m guessing he played hurt and why he was slower), and at RG, maybe Boettger.  I know I threw Brown in there, but he’s a cap hit that allows us $ for extending Williams, or Milano.  I doubt both, but Williams was fantastic as an example against TJ Watt for one game.

 

I absolutely love Milano, and Sal and crew this morning even pointed out what an impact he made, but we can’t keep everyone.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

Do we save anything significant cutting Morse? 
 

The only thing that scares me about Morse is that he is one more knock on the head from retirement most likely.  Feliciano could be a cheaper option move him to centre. Plug Ford back in at one guard spot?

 

Im not saying it’s the best move but maybe financially beneficial to find money for other areas.

 

I think we save something like $6 million.

 

Beane said he would be surprised if Ford isn’t starting in an interview.

[Mr. WEO]

Let him test the market....then give him a realistic number.

[thenorthremembers]

11 minutes ago, NewEra said:

“I don’t see myself going anywhere else”....until my agent shows Beane the market value on Spotrac and Beane laughs at him and tells him that the highest he’s going is 4M aav....almost half of his suggested (and ludicrous) market value. 
 

that’s where his tune changes imo

4 is a little low.  But I do agree that Spotracs market value for him is high, honestly most of their projections are.   He is a guy you pay 5-7 depending on where he starts on the line.  If he is your RG you give him a tiny bit over 5, if he is your center its a tiny bit over 7.   He is an above average player, but he has also missed games so that needs to be factored in.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

And his real deficiencies were exposed in the AFCCG when he was easily the worst player in the field.

 

I love his attitude and fore but I don’t know if he’s good enough in pass protection.  I can see moving him to center and cutting Morse, but we’d be replacing a good pass protection C with a crappy pass protection C. It would definitely help the run game though. We need interior lineman that aren’t inept at run blocking and pass blocking.  More balance 

 

I've said this before, but whether that's true depends upon what style of run game the Bills want to run.  Morse can be a good run blocker in space - a very good run blocker in space - but not if you want to run a power game.  Feliciano is more power but can get beat by stunts in the rungame (and the pass game).  There's a bunch of stuff in the Cover1 video that surprised me.  I'm working my way through the film to see for myself if they cherry-picked and so far I'd say "no".  Feliciano wasn't as good at run blocking as his reputation.

 

What I don't know, is how Mongo's off-season surgery last year contributed to his torn pec and to his blocking struggles once he came back.  He said in one interview that he hadn't been blocking well this season.  I don't think we appreciate that if a guy is working back from injury and playing with painkillers, that may affect his speed and reflexes.  If they think a healthy off season will let him raise his game, that could be good.

 

[warrior9]

28 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think they like Feliciano at center because he's more of a push guy.  Morse is your pin/pull time of blocker.

 

I think people underestimate the sign of Morse being benched against AZ.  He was cleared to play and healthy.

McDermott called it a football decision, Morse said himself that the coach's sent him a message with that move.

 

 

The underestimate that we were a MUCH better offense with Morse in games and it wasn't close.

31 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The answer to what question is obvious?

You protect the passer? 

 

Morse is exponentially better at pass blocking that Feliciano.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I think we save something like $6 million.

 

$4.8M.  We take on $5.5M dead cap.  I could be wrong, I don't see it.

 

7 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Beane said he would be surprised if Ford isn’t starting in an interview.

 

What Beane actually said was closer to "he'll have to compete, of course, but I'll be surprised if he isn't one of the best 5"

He also refused to commit to Ford as a tackle or a guard.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, warrior9 said:

The underestimate that we were a MUCH better offense with Morse in games and it wasn't close.

Well he played I believe all but two games.

[DCbillsfan]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea even if Morse is here for 2021 I think he is gone after it. A young center would not be a stupid move. 

I think this may be the plan for 2021.  Draft a Center in early rounds this year with the plan he starts at LG for 2021.  After the season, they cut Morse and the draftee is Center for 2022.  Similar to when Bills drafted Eric Wood.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

Well he played I believe all but two games.

 

Three.

 

3 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

If his girlfriend prefers San Francisco then go. Nobody deserves a whining girlfriend

 

What are you even talking about

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I'm not a trenches guy so I rely on podcasts and some posters on here to understand the X's and O's.

What I'm hearing is Morse isn't a great fit for the running game.  He's a pin and pull guy...so it seems to be a fit mismatch. 

 

That depends right? on what kind of run game the Bills want to run.  It's not a podcast, but if you haven't watched it I STRONGLY recommend you watch the Cover1 "glaring run game" issues piece.  It's long, I think you'll find it enlightening.

 

The first thing of note is that last year, when we were running somewhat more successfully, we were primarily a gap run team (pin and pull).  We became a zone run team this year.

 

What does Daboll really want us to be?

 

Quote

I think he's a good center but maybe better for another team.

 

Morse is one of the best pass blocking centers in the league.  Let's walk through the logic here:

1) The Bills became a pass-heavy team this season

2) As long as Josh Allen stays healthy and on-point, we will remain that

3) We want to improve our run blocking so that our run game becomes more effective and efficient - not so that it supplants our pass game

4) Therefore we should cut our good pass blocking center and replace him with a center who is significantly worse in the pass game and better in a specific style of run blocking (which we may or may not want to execute)

 

Makes sense? 🤔

[Hapless Bills Fan]

35 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Yea even if Morse is here for 2021 I think he is gone after it. A young center would not be a stupid move. 

 

I agree with the folks who suggest we will draft a C/G reasonably high, give him a year to adjust to the NFL game, and if all goes well move on from Morse next year.

 

19 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

The underestimate that we were a MUCH better offense with Morse in games and it wasn't close.

 

The three games where Feliciano replaced Morse at center were 1st NE, Seahawks, and Arizona.

We had a season-high rush yards in the NWE game and a 2nd highest pass yards in the Seahawks game, so I'm not sure how you construct that argument.

IMHO the Arizona game was the audition for "OK, how does this specific line perform with a more balanced attack?" and the answer was to put Morse back under center the next game.  But it wasn't an "OMG, awful game, much much better with Morse!" thing either.

 

19 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Morse is exponentially better at pass blocking that Feliciano.

 

I think you may not understand the actual meaning of an exponential change.  Morse is better, yes.

[warrior9]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I agree with the folks who suggest we will draft a C/G reasonably high, give him a year to adjust to the NFL game, and if all goes well move on from Morse next year.

 

 

The three games where Feliciano replaced Morse at center were 1st NE, Seahawks, and Arizona.

We had a season-high rush yards in the NWE game and a 2nd highest pass yards in the Seahawks game, so I'm not sure how you construct that argument.

IMHO the Arizona game was the audition for "OK, how does this specific line perform with a more balanced attack?" and the answer was to put Morse back under center the next game.  But it wasn't an "OMG, awful game, much much better with Morse!" thing either.

 

 

I think you may not understand the actual meaning of an exponential change.  Morse is better, yes.

Seattle had the worst defense in the league. 
 

Arizona was without their starting 2 IDL. Those are two awful arguments and I think you know that as did the coaching staff because they put Morse in the next game. 
 

if Morse isn’t in for LA Rams we probably get stomped. 
 

again, yes, rushing yards. Josh Allen is your QB, I’d rather have a better pass pro center. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by warrior9

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Seattle had the worst defense in the league.

 

Can you document that as of the week we played them?

They finished #15, both for points and for NY/A passing. 

 

IIRC they were worse for passing D when we played them but not "worst in the league"; however, I don't want to do your homework to refute the stuff you have no problem saying without anything to back it up.

 

2 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

Arizona was without their starting 2 IDL. 

 

For this to be relevant, you would need to assess what key defensive players every other team we played might have been missing

[Hebert19]

Team friendly deal?

[Royale with Cheese]

29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That depends right? on what kind of run game the Bills want to run.  It's not a podcast, but if you haven't watched it I STRONGLY recommend you watch the Cover1 "glaring run game" issues piece.  It's long, I think you'll find it enlightening.

 

The first thing of note is that last year, when we were running somewhat more successfully, we were primarily a gap run team (pin and pull).  We became a zone run team this year.

 

What does Daboll really want us to be?

 

 

Morse is one of the best pass blocking centers in the league.  Let's walk through the logic here:

1) The Bills became a pass-heavy team this season

2) As long as Josh Allen stays healthy and on-point, we will remain that

3) We want to improve our run blocking so that our run game becomes more effective and efficient - not so that it supplants our pass game

4) Therefore we should cut our good pass blocking center and replace him with a center who is significantly worse in the pass game and better in a specific style of run blocking (which we may or may not want to execute)

 

Makes sense? 🤔

As I’ve stated before, I’m not for or banging the table to cut him.

 

Its just a prediction.  I think they want more push from our interior and Feliciano gives more push than Morse.  They were too one dimensional last year.

 

Just an opinion.

[warrior9]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Can you document that as of the week we played them?

They finished #15, both for points and for NY/A passing. 

 

IIRC they were worse for passing D when we played them but not "worst in the league"; however, I don't want to do your homework to refute the stuff you have no problem saying without anything to back it up.

 

 

For this to be relevant, you would need to assess what key defensive players every other team we played might have been missing

#1 Yes. 
 

#2. Go for it. If you don’t understand that what I’m saying is using those 2 teams as an assessment to say were better with Feliciano at center is absurd. 
 

Even the coaching staff saw something after Arizona and Seattle to say “Welp, we’re better with Morse.”

Edited February 12, 2021 by warrior9

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

As I’ve stated before, I’m not for or banging the table to cut him.

 

Its just a prediction.  I think they want more push from our interior and Feliciano gives more push than Morse.  They were too one dimensional last year.

 

Just an opinion.

 

I agree that they want more push but I think they'll take the long view and look to draft and develop a guy vs. sacrificing pass pro for incremental gains.  They can have a more effective run game using Morse to his strengths, it just depends upon what kind of run game they want.

10 minutes ago, warrior9 said:

#1 Yes. 

 

Great, do so please.

 

Quote

#2. Go for it. If you don’t understand that what I’m saying is using those 2 teams as an assessment to say were better with Feliciano at center is absurd.

 

I understand what you're saying, I'm simply pointing out that the offensive results in the games you mention do not support what you are saying, and that pointing at missing pieces for one game doesn't exactly support your argument unless you go through and document which teams (with claimed better offensive results) were or weren't missing pieces.

 

IOW it's a weak argument to support your claims, and the way to show otherwise is with evidence, not with looking down your nose "if you don't understand...."

 

I understand.  I think you're factually incorrect.  Pointing out there's a reason why Morse got his job back after the bye does not support your claim that

Quote

The underestimate that we were a MUCH better offense with Morse in games and it wasn't close.

either.

[NewEra]

59 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I've said this before, but whether that's true depends upon what style of run game the Bills want to run.  Morse can be a good run blocker in space - a very good run blocker in space - but not if you want to run a power game.  Feliciano is more power but can get beat by stunts in the rungame (and the pass game).  There's a bunch of stuff in the Cover1 video that surprised me.  I'm working my way through the film to see for myself if they cherry-picked and so far I'd say "no".  Feliciano wasn't as good at run blocking as his reputation.

 

What I don't know, is how Mongo's off-season surgery last year contributed to his torn pec and to his blocking struggles once he came back.  He said in one interview that he hadn't been blocking well this season.  I don't think we appreciate that if a guy is working back from injury and playing with painkillers, that may affect his speed and reflexes.  If they think a healthy off season will let him raise his game, that could be good.

 

So maybe the answer lies in which type of run schem we plan on employing next year?  Seems like they might be a poor fit playing side by side?  I’d hate to lose Morse’s pass blocking, but how long will he be around?  He could be one concussion away from retirement 

[CaptnCoke11]

He’s ok.  Wouldn’t be throwing out big money for him.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

So maybe the answer lies in which type of run schem we plan on employing next year?  Seems like they might be a poor fit playing side by side?  I’d hate to lose Morse’s pass blocking, but how long will he be around?  He could be one concussion away from retirement 

 

I think that's a lot of it, sure - what run game do they WANT to run? 

 

I think Morse and Feliciano did better side-by-side in 2019.  The other unknown piece is how much they believe Feliciano's limited off-season and pec surgery compromised his blocking when he did come back this season.

 

The whole concussion thing is a big question.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, warrior9 said:

The underestimate that we were a MUCH better offense with Morse in games and it wasn't close.

You protect the passer? 

 

Morse is exponentially better at pass blocking that Feliciano.

I hear ya.  The problem with keeping Morse is his health and ineffective run blocking. If we keep him, our backup C is vital, but can we keep Morse and Feliciano playing together?  If we choose one, than we have to invest in a backup C too, likely drafting morse’s replacement.  
 

I just hope we make some changes along the OL. Maybe Williams has to go?  Idk.....i just know that our run game has to improve or we’ll suffer the same fate as this year.  Let’s hope Beane can work some magic 

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Pssst hey big guy

 

isn’t that up to Beane?

 

/shade

If you read what he said, he didn’t indicate that he was confident they would sign him. It was more that he was staying positive, he wants to be here, he thinks they want the same thing, but he’s picturing himself as a Bill because he’s optimistic. 

[Victory Formation]

Good player. You can say what you want about the AFC Championship game but make no bones about it we run the ball better with Feliciano in there.

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I hear ya.  The problem with keeping Morse is his health and ineffective run blocking. If we keep him, our backup C is vital, but can we keep Morse and Feliciano playing together?  If we choose one, than we have to invest in a backup C too, likely drafting morse’s replacement.  
 

I just hope we make some changes along the OL. Maybe Williams has to go?  Idk.....i just know that our run game has to improve or we’ll suffer the same fate as this year.  Let’s hope Beane can work some magic 

Think Feliciano would do very well at center.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Good player. You can say what you want about the AFC Championship game but make no bones about it we run the ball better with Feliciano in there.

Think Feliciano would do very well at center.

 

I actually think Feliciano is a better center than he is a guard from the bits I have seen of him there. The issue is whether he is the right center for this offense that is going to be pass first. 

[JaCrispy]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Interesting.... if it does get done I wonder what other moves they make to upgrade the interior line... 

they might feel with Ford and Feliciano that they are all set on the interior...should be interesting to see if they bring in competition for Ford...

[Victory Formation]

47 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I actually think Feliciano is a better center than he is a guard from the bits I have seen of him there. The issue is whether he is the right center for this offense that is going to be pass first. 

I think he is a slightly above average pass blocker, it’s not like he’s terrible. Obviously when he is in, we can run and when he’s not in, we can’t run. I think having a road grading center can set the tone for the rest of the OL. Add a few road graders in the draft to challenge Ford and hopefully our line is more balanced.

[Rubes]

8 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

I think he is a slightly above average pass blocker, it’s not like he’s terrible. Obviously when he is in, we can run and when he’s not in, we can’t run. I think having a road grading center can set the tone for the rest of the OL. Add a few road graders in the draft to challenge Ford and hopefully our line is more balanced.

 

Is it really that obvious? I never felt very confident in our ability to run the ball no matter who was in there.

 

[warrior9]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Great, do so please.

 

 

 

Google.com. “I’m not going to do your homework for you.”

 

I know the answer

 

Just to help a little, NYJ were allowing 35 ppg and Seattle 30.8 .. The second worst at the time. 

Edited February 12, 2021 by warrior9

[Hapless Bills Fan]

48 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

they might feel with Ford and Feliciano that they are all set on the interior...should be interesting to see if they bring in competition for Ford...

 

That would be a case of trying to improve something by keeping it the same I believe.

 

I've been thinking a lot about what my preferred scenario would be.

 

If we can re-sign Mongo reasonably - something along the line of 3 years, $15-16M, about $5-6M guaranteed - I think he's the competition at center and both guard spots, the guy who is ready to step in and play competently if anyone on the interior doesn't show out, as well as the insurance policy if either Ford or Morse go out (which anyone looking at injury history has to regard as probable).   We have Bates under contract who came in and played competently for Dawkins at LT a couple times IIRC, so he's the backup OT if he can play both sides.

 

Then I think we draft a C/G reasonably high, who we expect to compete to start at a guard position this year

 

Unknowns to me are how much they like Boettger, whether they think he can play either side at guard, whether they think Bates can be a swing tackle or is he backup LT/Center, what they see from career journeyman Jordan Devey who they consistently protected this season and who they re-up'd for a year? Underneath Beane's waffling do they really see Ford as an option at RT or have they moved on and now see him at LG?  He wasn't very good in run blocking at LG from what I saw, so if they do see him at LG what role did injury play in that?  If they want to keep trying Ford at LT, then they probably keep Boettger for additional guard competition as well as looking for this year's Williams equivalent.

 

Frankly too many unknowns for me to wrap my head around, but I do think we need to look hard for an upgrade on OL.

 

9 minutes ago, Rubes said:

Is it really that obvious? I never felt very confident in our ability to run the ball no matter who was in there.

 

If the assertion is "when Feliciano is in at Center, we can run and when he's not in, we can't run", No, it's not obvious.

3 of our best rushing games (Chargers, Broncos, 2nd Patriots) featured Morse at center.

 

If the assertion is that putting Feliciano on the OL (at some position) correlated to an uptick in run game, OK

 

[MJS]

4 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

My bold prediction is Morse is cut.  Feliciano moves to center.

We sign at least one guard in FA/or draft one high that's starting material, I would think probably a bigger body guard.  Ford/Boettger/FA/Draft pick battle for two starting spots.

I think the bolder prediction would be to predict Morse to NOT be cut, since that has been the TBD narrative this off-season so far.

 

Personally, I don't see it. I think they keep Morse.

[Rubes]

20 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

If the assertion is "when Feliciano is in at Center, we can run and when he's not in, we can't run", No, it's not obvious.

3 of our best rushing games (Chargers, Broncos, 2nd Patriots) featured Morse at center.

 

If the assertion is that putting Feliciano on the OL (at some position) correlated to an uptick in run game, OK

 

 

My sense is that we were better with Morse and Feliciano in, rather than Morse and Winters or Feliciano and Winters. To me, Winters was the big problem solved when Feliciano came back. It's not that Feliciano or Morse specifically made the run game better, it was putting Winters on the bench that probably did it.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Rubes

[Back2Buff]

Feliciano was awful at center this past season.  He was actually average at guard too.

 

He was really good his first year here, but when we played better d lineman this year, he wasn't as good.

 

I'm absolutely not cutting Morse for Feliciano to play center.  Morse was really solid this year.

 

Also, it is a no brainer to convert Morse's salary to a bonus and it saves 3 million on cap this year.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Back2Buff