KtD Nails It: No Moral Losses

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

KtD Voice of the Fan on Pats game:

"Bills Mafia have suffered so long from PTSD that it seems we can never be happy. Countless times since the Kelly years, Bills fans have debated moral victories – their worth or futility. Yeah, we might have lost against the Patriots, but we played well and should have won, or without that Leodis fumble, or we were robbed!

But we didn’t win, detractors would scream, to their credit. A loss is a loss! You’re only as good as your record!

 

Well, now the worm has turned. The Bills are the good team. Not consistently great but quite good if not very good. So now I am here to discuss the opposite of moral victories: Moral losses.

Get over it. You can’t look at it bad, both times and ways."

(....)

"If there are no moral victories, there must be no moral losses."

 

Right on! @Kelly the Dog

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

So this is where fans have a disconnect.  The Bills and this regime have raised the bar.  The expectations should be higher.  Last Sunday, it was a win but it was a disappointing win.  It would have be nice to destroy a banged up and bad NE team.  But they did win and know have a chance to beat a legit good team (with a very suspect defense).  
 

That said, if we did lose a guy 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

[Don Otreply]

The truth is, “you are who your record says you are” 

 

we don’t suck 6-2 

 

the patriots suck, there record says they suck

 

sure hope this pans out over the season 

 

😁

 

Go Bills!!!

[Logic]

This post put into words what I was thinking after the Pats game.

For years and years, Bills fans would indeed talk about the "moral victories" after losing squeakers to the Pats again and again. Meanwhile, do you think Pats fans cared much that their team "barely" beat the awful Bills? I doubt it. 

Honestly, after two decades of losing football, I think Bills fans have forgotten how to behave when the Bills win.

It's always either "we're going to the Super Bowl!" or "fire everyone!". There's no middle ground. For many, it has become a lost art to be able to say "the team has some things to clean up and improve upon, but winning is what matters most, and we won". If the win isn't stylish enough, or achieved in just the right way, these fans feel as badly after the game as if they would if the Bills had lost. It's crazy-town.

[MJS]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So this is where fans have a disconnect.  The Bills and this regime have raised the bar.  The expectations should be higher.  Last Sunday, it was a win but it was a disappointing win.  It would have be nice to destroy a banged up and bad NE team.  But they did win and know have a chance to beat a legit good team (with a very suspect defense).  
 

That said, if we did lose a guy 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

If only there was a barf reaction...

[DaggersEOD]

12 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So this is where fans have a disconnect.  The Bills and this regime have raised the bar.  The expectations should be higher.  Last Sunday, it was a win but it was a disappointing win.  It would have be nice to destroy a banged up and bad NE team.  But they did win and know have a chance to beat a legit good team (with a very suspect defense).  
 

That said, if we did lose a guy 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

How about we put together an entire season of success before we start arbitrarily raising the bar. 
 

Raising the bar mid season sounds an awful lot like moving the goal posts. 
 

My 2020 goals were (are) to win the division and win AT LEAST one playoff game. How we get there is literally irrelevant IMO

[Just Joshin']

13 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

The truth is, “you are who your record says you are” 

 

we don’t suck 6-2 

 

the patriots suck, there record says they suck

 

sure hope this pans out over the season 

 

😁

 

Go Bills!!!

I am not sure you have read all the posts.  There is a subset of posters here who think the Bills do suck.  There is always a next hill to climb for those folks.  They don't stop and enjoy a win.

 

I am not in that camp but they exist.

[Nihilarian]

I wasn't disappointed in that Bills victory over the New England Patriots 24-21 as both teams looked so similar in a hard fought division game. Buffalo FINALLY had the ball bounce their way after so many years of it going against them, game after game after game. Regardless of the rosters as these two teams hate each other and perhaps the Bills burn a bit more. 

 

What is Bill Belichick's record against Buffalo, like 35-5? ...3-15 in Foxboro, 2-20 in Buffalo.

 

Turn the page! 

[Seasons1992]

27 minutes ago, Logic said:

Honestly, after two decades of losing football, I think Bills fans have forgotten how to behave when the Bills win.

 

I don't think the behavior matters anymore.........doing this pre game, post game, April weekends, etc.

 

[K-9]

Another good piece by KtD. And he’s right, quibbling about style points is absurd. Perhaps that’s a reflection of how this team has improved because nobody would be quibbling if far worse Bills teams beat the Pats*** in the same fashion previously. 
 

One thing I can’t ever agree with is the notion that a single play has ever won or lost any game. But that’s another discussion entirely.

[Seasons1992]

This is what I'm banking on:

 

2 minutes ago, K-9 said:

One thing I can’t ever agree with is the notion that a single play has ever won or lost any game. But that’s another discussion entirely.

 

Justin Zimmer is on line 4 for you.........

[Hapless Bills Fan]

38 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So this is where fans have a disconnect.  The Bills and this regime have raised the bar.  The expectations should be higher.  Last Sunday, it was a win but it was a disappointing win.  It would have be nice to destroy a banged up and bad NE team.  But they did win and know have a chance to beat a legit good team (with a very suspect defense).  
 

That said, if we did lose a guy 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

 

Truth

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Seasons1992 said:

This is what I'm banking on:

 

 

Justin Zimmer is on line 4 for you.........

I suspect Zimmer would agree with me. 

[msw2112]

3 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

I wasn't disappointed in that Bills victory over the New England Patriots 24-21 as both teams looked so similar in a hard fought division game. Buffalo FINALLY had the ball bounce their way after so many years of it going against them, game after game after game. Regardless of the rosters as these two teams hate each other and perhaps the Bills burn a bit more. 

 

What is Bill Belichick's record against Buffalo, like 35-5? ...3-15 in Foxboro, 2-20 in Buffalo.

 

Turn the page! 

 

I agree with this, but want to clarify one comment.  Yes, the ball bounced the Bills' way, in that once the fumble was on the ground, either team could have recovered it.  But, it wasn't just a lucky bounce.  Zimmer was BEHIND Newton and could have given up on the play, but instead, chased Newtown down, hustled, and made an intentional swipe at the ball, jarring it loose.  So it was more than just a bounce the Bills' way, it was a great play by a Bills player that ultimately sealed the victory, which we should all enjoy.

 

Could the Bills be playing better or winning by higher margins?  Sure.  But plenty of top teams win close games against "lesser" opponents.  Not every win by a better team is a blowout.  And not every game has the "better" team winning - see Bengals over Titans last weekend.  Enjoy the win!

Edited November 5, 2020 by msw2112

[maddenboy]

52 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

That said, if we did lose a guy game 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

This has some resonance to it for me, too.  I think that, deep down, we know its an offensive league, and especially a passing league.  So if we are able to score 35 consistently, we will feel like we have finally arrived as a team that can contend for it all.

Edited November 5, 2020 by maddenboy

[Reader]

I think it is worth noting that we all remember Zimmer's play at the end, but I would counter with Allen-Diggs miscom is another play that stands out. Both teams had a play that should have ended differently and had Allen and Diggs not miscommunicated the Bills would have more points and the Pats less.

 

I don't know if this was mentioned anywhere, but did anyone else notice Jackson and Allen hug after the game. It's nice to see that what happened last year truly was an accient and that there is no bad blood between the two.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

This has some resonance to it for me, too.  I think that, deep down, we know its an offensive league, and especially a passing league.  So if we are able to score 35 consistently, we will feel like we have finally arrived as a team that can contend for it all.

 

I couldn't disagree more.  All that matters is the letter.  If we're giving up 38 points, it either means our D sucks worse or we're handing the ball over (like Tenn)

 

 

[Einstein's Dog]

24 minutes ago, DaggersEOD said:

How about we put together an entire season of success before we start arbitrarily raising the bar. 
 

Raising the bar mid season sounds an awful lot like moving the goal posts. 
 

My 2020 goals were (are) to win the division and win AT LEAST one playoff game. How we get there is literally irrelevant IMO

I agree you shouldn't revise expectations mid-season.  And at the end of the season the win will stand out more than the closeness of the game and not winning by a lot.

My hopes/expectations for the season were for the playoffs.  Hope to take the division.  More important to my hopes though were the progression of Josh and having a franchise  QB.

Seeing that the franchise hopes were answered so quickly I can see how some might reset their hopes/expectations.  But to me the joy of taking down NE and making them irrelevant for this season in game 8, far outweighs the lack of style points.

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

  

That said, if we did lose a guy 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

Yeah, I guess, but your recent post on quarterbacks was well done and thought provoking. 

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Reader said:

I think it is worth noting that we all remember Zimmer's play at the end, but I would counter with Allen-Diggs miscom is another play that stands out. Both teams had a play that should have ended differently and had Allen and Diggs not miscommunicated the Bills would have more points and the Pats less.

 

I don't know if this was mentioned anywhere, but did anyone else notice Jackson and Allen hug after the game. It's nice to see that what happened last year truly was an accient and that there is no bad blood between the two.

The Gabe Davis TD drop in the endzone is another example of a play that would have changed the circumstances.

 

Per the bold text, examples of good sportsmanship never get old, so thanks for bringing that up. 

 

On another note, I must be living in some alternate reality when I read that scoring 35 points and losing is a better outcome than scoring 20 points and winning. 
 

 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

KtD Voice of the Fan on Pats game:

"Bills Mafia have suffered so long from PTSD that it seems we can never be happy. Countless times since the Kelly years, Bills fans have debated moral victories – their worth or futility. Yeah, we might have lost against the Patriots, but we played well and should have won, or without that Leodis fumble, or we were robbed!

But we didn’t win, detractors would scream, to their credit. A loss is a loss! You’re only as good as your record!

 

Well, now the worm has turned. The Bills are the good team. Not consistently great but quite good if not very good. So now I am here to discuss the opposite of moral victories: Moral losses.

Get over it. You can’t look at it bad, both times and ways."

(....)

"If there are no moral victories, there must be no moral losses."

 

Right on! @Kelly the Dog

 

 

KTD is correct. Many of us are conditioned to lose. It's crazy HBF.

 

Just wait until the season is over. There will be posters who actually will WANT a first round defensive back despite the harm it has caused this franchise and the fans. 

[Don Otreply]

49 minutes ago, Just Joshin' said:

I am not sure you have read all the posts.  There is a subset of posters here who think the Bills do suck.  There is always a next hill to climb for those folks.  They don't stop and enjoy a win.

 

I am not in that camp but they exist.

Oh I know of them, we all do, they are quite the group of pessimistic humans, I hope for their sake they don’t conduct their entire lives that way, if so at least I don’t have to deal with them other than on this forum, 😁👍

 

Go Bills!!!

[Captain Hindsight]

37 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

KTD is correct. Many of us are conditioned to lose. It's crazy HBF.

 

Just wait until the season is over. There will be posters who actually will WANT a first round defensive back despite the harm it has caused this franchise and the fans. 

I mean, we could use another corner....

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So this is where fans have a disconnect.  The Bills and this regime have raised the bar.  The expectations should be higher.  Last Sunday, it was a win but it was a disappointing win.  It would have be nice to destroy a banged up and bad NE team.  But they did win and know have a chance to beat a legit good team (with a very suspect defense).  
 

That said, if we did lose a guy 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

How in the world is a win over the pats disappointing? when it buries them in the East, and likely keeps them out of the playoffs, and increases the likelihood we win our division for the first time in forever?  Color me confused... 

To include me, there are certainly a bunch of weirdos posing as Bills fans around here 😁👍

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

 Meanwhile, do you think Pats fans cared much that their team "barely" beat the awful Bills? I doubt it. 

 

Had a coworker put on my desk a note telling me win-loss ratio since Br*dy joined the P*ts after every loss (he was on vacation day after several wins).

 

I got tired of it and knew he often parked his car in handicapped area since we had no one working who was handicapped so I wrote down number off sign and called to report someone repeatedly parking in handicapped spot.  I could see his car from my office window so when I saw ticket writer go there I went down, took picture of car and ticket and printed it out placing picture on his desk. He also got a boot for not paying parking tickets previously.

 

He came to my office and asked for a ride so he could go pay tickets.  I told him I would if he recited names of players who made probowl for Bills since his hero joined.  He would tell me and I said he missed one and he could not figure it out who it was.  He did not think kickers were football players and did not think of Moorman.

[In Summary]

1)  I think I can want better front 7 play from the D and not be caught in the moral loss trap.

2) The way the Bills beat New England, giving them hope like that on the last drive, then crushing their arrogant hopes in a single play.  That was joyous.

[Dan]

6 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

So this is where fans have a disconnect.  The Bills and this regime have raised the bar.  The expectations should be higher.  Last Sunday, it was a win but it was a disappointing win.  It would have be nice to destroy a banged up and bad NE team.  But they did win and know have a chance to beat a legit good team (with a very suspect defense).  
 

That said, if we did lose a guy 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

So wait... you’d feel better about the team and this season ..today.. if the Bills had LOST to the Patsies 38-35?  The 24-21 win means gives you less confidence in this team!?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, Captain Hindsight said:

I mean, we could use another corner....

 

You're a Bad Man, @Captain Hindsight.  A Bad, Bad Man.

2 minutes ago, Dan said:

So wait... you’d feel better about the team and this season ..today.. if the Bills had LOST to the Patsies 38-35?  The 24-21 win means gives you less confidence in this team!?

 

That is what he said. 

 

The mind.  It Boggles.

[Dan]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You're a Bad Man, @Captain Hindsight.  A Bad, Bad Man.

 

That is what he said. 

 

The mind.  It Boggles.

Interesting notion.   BBFS is definitely a strange phenomenon. 

[Kelly the Dog]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

KtD Voice of the Fan on Pats game:

"Bills Mafia have suffered so long from PTSD that it seems we can never be happy. Countless times since the Kelly years, Bills fans have debated moral victories – their worth or futility. Yeah, we might have lost against the Patriots, but we played well and should have won, or without that Leodis fumble, or we were robbed!

But we didn’t win, detractors would scream, to their credit. A loss is a loss! You’re only as good as your record!

 

Well, now the worm has turned. The Bills are the good team. Not consistently great but quite good if not very good. So now I am here to discuss the opposite of moral victories: Moral losses.

Get over it. You can’t look at it bad, both times and ways."

(....)

"If there are no moral victories, there must be no moral losses."

 

Right on! @Kelly the Dog

 

 

Thanks a lot for posting this, Hap. And even more for agreeing! Ha. 
 

We have suffered so many of these the opposite way, we HAVE to enjoy when we win like this, actually making the play. It wasn’t luck. Zimmer intentionally and specifically punched the ball out. It wasn’t a fluke. 
 

We made the play. Legit. And won. It was great. 

[BobbyC81]

15 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

What is Bill Belichick's record against Buffalo, like 35-5? ...3-15 in Foxboro, 2-20 in Buffalo.

 

That’s 35-6 now!  🙂

[Kelly the Dog]

On 11/5/2020 at 10:18 AM, K-9 said:

Another good piece by KtD. And he’s right, quibbling about style points is absurd. Perhaps that’s a reflection of how this team has improved because nobody would be quibbling if far worse Bills teams beat the Pats*** in the same fashion previously. 
 

One thing I can’t ever agree with is the notion that a single play has ever won or lost any game. But that’s another discussion entirely.

In one way to look at it, no one play ever wins a game. Ever. Too many other factors. I agree with you on that. Completely. 
 

In another way, which I was getting at, if there is a single play late, and there are zero plays after it that could change the result, like a Hail Mary or a TD on the last play, that one play won the game. 
 

I extrapolated that concept to Zimmer’s fumble. There were no plays left to change the result (kneel downs notwithstanding). Granted, the Pats may not have scored. May have missed the game tying FG. But we didn’t seem able to stop them and that one play stopped them with no chance of tie or loss. I know you understand this.

On 11/5/2020 at 10:51 AM, Bill from NYC said:

KTD is correct. Many of us are conditioned to lose. It's crazy HBF.

 

Just wait until the season is over. There will be posters who actually will WANT a first round defensive back despite the harm it has caused this franchise and the fans. 

We need a CB! Ha. 
 

Hope you’re well, good sir. 

[purple haze]

On 11/5/2020 at 9:45 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:

So this is where fans have a disconnect.  The Bills and this regime have raised the bar.  The expectations should be higher.  Last Sunday, it was a win but it was a disappointing win.  It would have be nice to destroy a banged up and bad NE team.  But they did win and know have a chance to beat a legit good team (with a very suspect defense).  
 

That said, if we did lose a guy 38-35, I actually would feel better about it than the NE game. But I’m a weirdo. 

Nah.  I hear you, but nah.  The Pats game was disappointing.  But if they play well and lose Sunday I’ll still be pissed.  Time for them to play well and win and do it again next week and the week after that,  etc.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Nah.  I hear you, but nah.  The Pats game was disappointing.  But if they play well and lose Sunday I’ll still be pissed.  Time for them to play well and win and do it again next week and the week after that,  etc.

 

Right On.

[Kelly the Dog]

39 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Nah.  I hear you, but nah.  The Pats game was disappointing.  But if they play well and lose Sunday I’ll still be pissed.  Time for them to play well and win and do it again next week and the week after that,  etc.

But what if they don’t play well but win. Beat Seattle. Go to 7-2. Will you be disappointed?

[K-9]

2 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

In one way to look at it, no one play ever wins a game. Ever. Too many other factors. I agree with you on that. Completely. 
 

In another way, which I was getting at, if there is a single play late, and there are zero plays after it that could change the result, like a Hail Mary or a TD on the last play, that one play won the game. 
 

I extrapolated that concept to Zimmer’s fumble. There were no plays left to change the result (kneel downs notwithstanding). Granted, the Pats may not have scored. May have missed the game tying FG. But we didn’t seem able to stop them and that one play stopped them with no chance of tie or loss. I know you understand this.

We need a CB! Ha. 
 

 

Like I said, it’s another discussion entirely. But I fully appreciated where you were coming from in your piece. 

[purple haze]

9 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

But what if they don’t play well but win. Beat Seattle. Go to 7-2. Will you be disappointed?

I’ll always take a win, however it comes, but I don’t take moral victories.  Win or sit down.  However, at the same time, they need to start playing well consistently.  That’s the only way they take the next step to being serious contenders for the Chip.

Edited November 7, 2020 by purple haze