Joe B All-22 Review of Dolphins game

[YoloinOhio]

 

The more important topic along the offensive line has to do with Spain, who has had way too many negative plays through the first two weeks. He’s getting beaten against the pass rush and has come close to taking holding penalties too often. He’s also lost his blocks on some rushing attempts, something he didn’t do as much last year. Jon Feliciano will be back at some point, and given Ford’s strong play at right guard, left guard is a likelier landing spot for him. The Bills head coach might have even let that notion slip. When asked about Feliciano tweeting during Sunday’s game, Sean McDermott said in jest, “I’d rather see him play at right guard or left guard.” Feliciano has never played a single snap at left guard during a Bills regular-season game. Given Spain’s struggles, don’t be surprised if Feliciano replaces Spain when he returns.

In fact, given that the Bills experimented with Ford at left guard, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Bills switch things up for the Rams game.

In total, Epenesa had 17 snaps at both left and right defensive end, using his hands well to keep blockers off his pads. Other than that, he didn’t display much of the power he played with at Iowa. Epenesa didn’t come close to pressuring the quarterback on passing downs, he didn’t use his strength on bull rushes to force the offensive tackle backward and he was slow to recognize screens to his side. The rookie needs more time on the field to learn before we pass any judgments. The problem is that Epenesa — without the special teams fallback — is a game-day luxury when Jerry Hughes, Mario Addison and Trent Murphy are all healthy and ahead of him for snaps. If Edmunds or Milano returns this week against the Rams, Epenesa could wind up inactive once again.

[Royale with Cheese]

I watched Epenesa on a few plays and Joe B was right...he didn't get much push at all.  

[BuffaloBillies]

57 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I watched Epenesa on a few plays and Joe B was right...he didn't get much push at all.  

 

Hopefully he's just being a slightly timid rookie and someone (or something) will light a fire under his arse. Get after it, kid! 

[Punching Bag]

Very difficult for DE to learn with no preseason or scrimmage games and shortened camp.  NFLPA rules due not help.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillies said:

 

Hopefully he's just being a slightly timid rookie and someone (or something) will light a fire under his arse. Get after it, kid! 

 

I think it will be more a year of hitting the weights hard and bulking up.  So many rookies come back so much stronger in year 2

[MrEpsYtown]

Darryl Johnson is ahead of him right now as well, I really like him. He’s long and explosive and I think he has the chance to a really solid player. 
 

I said It in another thread, but it took a while for the light bulb to go off for Epenesa at Iowa, so I assume he will take some time as a pro. If he can replace Murphy next season, then I think that is a win. AJ is not a twitchy athlete like a Johnson or Jerry, so he is not going to jump out at you. He’s a base end who could have an “Aaron Smith, Steelers” type of career, which would be very good. High floor, possibly low ceiling, but he will be a productive player for sure. 

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I watched Epenesa on a few plays and Joe B was right...he didn't get much push at all.  

Fitz was also getting rid of the ball very quickly; so chance of Epenesa getting to him was going to be slim 

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I think it will be more a year of hitting the weights hard and bulking up.  So many rookies come back so much stronger in year 2

 

 

I don't think strength is a problem with Epanesa, not at all.

 

More like the game is still too fast for him this early in his career.

[Bad Things]

 

 

"Epenesa didn’t come close to pressuring the quarterback on passing downs..."

 

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Bad Things

[Mango]

35 minutes ago, Bad Things said:

 

 

"Epenesa didn’t come close to pressuring the quarterback on passing downs..."

 

 

Honest question. What play is that from? Is AJ in the backfield or is Fitz running across the line of scrimmage. Maybe it is the way the image resized, but it looks like he is rushing. 

[GunnerBill]

Joe B's weekly Quinton Spain rant. Oh good. 

 

[atlbillsfan1975]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Joe B's weekly Quinton Spain rant. Oh good. 

 

Did Joe B continue to harp on Spain as the season  went on last Year? It seemed to me that Spain got better last year the more games he played. Overall Spain is solid not spectacular, good not great. Which kind of goes with his salary. Maybe the Miami heat and lack of offseason workouts got to Spain, I don’t recall him getting plays off last year. Not saying it didn’t happen. 

[GimmeSomeProcess]

1 hour ago, Bad Things said:

 

 

"Epenesa didn’t come close to pressuring the quarterback on passing downs..."

 

 

Well that looks like photographic evidence. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Did Joe B continue to harp on Spain as the season  went on last Year? It seemed to me that Spain got better last year the more games he played. Overall Spain is solid not spectacular, good not great. Which kind of goes with his salary. Maybe the Miami heat and lack of offseason workouts got to Spain, I don’t recall him getting plays off last year. Not saying it didn’t happen. 

 

He grudgingly admitted late last year Spain was playing better. This past week I don't actually think Spain played that well... he was okay not great but he hammered him week 1 as well when he was one of our best players. I think in part Joe isn't a great oline judge and two he just doesn't like Spain and there is some confirmation bias going on.

Edited September 24, 2020 by GunnerBill

[thenorthremembers]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Joe B's weekly Quinton Spain rant. Oh good. 

 

He isnt wrong.  Spain was terrible in the playoff game, and is just average to begin with.   His cap hit next year isn't huge or anything, but it probably precludes them from putting Feliciano in at Left Guard when he returns, eventhough he is the younger better player.   

[buffaloboyinATL]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Honest question. What play is that from? Is AJ in the backfield or is Fitz running across the line of scrimmage. Maybe it is the way the image resized, but it looks like he is rushing. 

If memory serves me, it was pressure in the backfield. That was the only play I remember noticing Epenesa during the game. It also looks like Epenesa is being held judging by the way his jersey is being pulled away from his shoulder pads. 

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

He isnt wrong.  Spain was terrible in the playoff game, and is just average to begin with.   His cap hit next year isn't huge or anything, but it probably precludes them from putting Feliciano in at Left Guard when he returns, eventhough he is the younger better player.   

 

No. He is wrong. Quinton Spain didn't give up a sack in the whole of 2019 despite starting 16 games at left guard. He was the only member of our starting 5 not to surrender a sack. He is one of the most underrated players on the team.

[thenorthremembers]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

No. He is wrong. Quinton Spain didn't give up a sack in the whole of 2019 despite starting 16 games at left guard. He was the only member of our starting 5 not to surrender a sack. He is one of the most underrated players on the team.

The people who track the not giving up a sack stats are as bad as PFF.  They literally dont know the Bills plays.  Just because the guy standing in front of Spain at the start of a play doesnt get a sack doesnt mean Spain was responsible for him on a given play.

 

Outside of Ford, Spain was the worst starter on the offensive line and he continues to be that this year.  He is an average player at best.  

 

Not going to convince me he is good because an analytic site said he didnt surrender a sack.  Saying that matters would tell you he is a better player than Dawkins, Morse and Feliciano because they gave up sacks and thats obviously not the case.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, thenorthremembers said:

The people who track the not giving up a sack stats are as bad as PFF.  They literally dont know the Bills plays.  Just because the guy standing in front of Spain at the start of a play doesnt get a sack doesnt mean Spain was responsible for him on a given play.

 

Outside of Ford, Spain was the worst starter on the offensive line and he continues to be that this year.  He is an average player at best.  

 

Not going to convince me he is good because an analytic site said he didnt surrender a sack.  Saying that matters would tell you he is a better player than Dawkins, Morse and Feliciano because they gave up sacks and thats obviously not the case.

 

He is a better player than Feliciano and to be honest it is not that close. It isn't about analytics it is about what is on film. He isn't a dominant run blocker. He is similar to Morse in that regard, but he is one of the best pass blocking guards out there. 

[947]

I don't think we can expect Feliciano to come back from a torn pec & be what he was in 2019. That is a major injury for an OL and his strength will not be back to 100% this season. I'm sure he'll be solid in spurts, but we can't expect him at full strength anytime soon.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, 947 said:

I don't think we can expect Feliciano to come back from a torn pec & be what he was in 2019. That is a major injury for an OL and his strength will not be back to 100% this season. I'm sure he'll be solid in spurts, but we can't expect him at full strength anytime soon.

 

Where we miss Feliciano is that he was the best of our three interior guys as a run blocker and to be honest based on two weeks he is better than Ford as an interior run blocker too. So it does hurt our run game being without him. He was comfortably the weakest of our three interior guys as a pass blocker though and I actually like what Ford has done so far in the pass game. Feliciano's return to the starting lineup depends very much, to my mind, on what sort of team the Bills want to be.

[BarleyNY]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is a better player than Feliciano and to be honest it is not that close. It isn't about analytics it is about what is on film. He isn't a dominant run blocker. He is similar to Morse in that regard, but he is one of the best pass blocking guards out there. 

I disagree.  They are pretty damn even.  Both are serviceable starters, but are replaceable.  Both have reasonable (or better) contracts, are in their late 20s and are signed past this season:

- Spain is 29, making $5M AAV and is signed through 2022

- Feliciano is 28, making $3.6M AAV and is signed through 2021

Spain is simply the kind of guy that a team can roll with if it is convenient or necessary, but who generally gets replaced by a cheaper/younger/better player.  I would expect that to happen this offseason or next.  Feliciano is a little younger and cheaper so I’d expect him to stick around as depth.  If Feliciano takes over Spain’s spot this season then it’s pretty much over for him here. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

I disagree.  They are pretty damn even.  Both are serviceable starters, but are replaceable.  Both have reasonable (or better) contracts, are in their late 20s and are signed past this season:

- Spain is 29, making $5M AAV and is signed through 2022

- Feliciano is 28, making $3.6M AAV and is signed through 2021

Spain is simply the kind of guy that a team can roll with if it is convenient or necessary, but who generally gets replaced by a cheaper/younger/better player.  I would expect that to happen this offseason or next.  Feliciano is a little younger and cheaper so I’d expect him to stick around as depth.  If Feliciano takes over Spain’s spot this season then it’s pretty much over for him here. 

 

Yea.. as I say... most fans underrate Spain... He is better than you think.

[eball]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea.. as I say... most fans underrate Spain... He is better than you think.

 

Yet another reason why I stay away from any casual fan's "analysis" of OL play -- and even some experts.  That said, I do give your opinions more consideration than most.

[Rochesterfan]

13 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

The people who track the not giving up a sack stats are as bad as PFF.  They literally dont know the Bills plays.  Just because the guy standing in front of Spain at the start of a play doesnt get a sack doesnt mean Spain was responsible for him on a given play.

 

Outside of Ford, Spain was the worst starter on the offensive line and he continues to be that this year.  He is an average player at best.  

 

Not going to convince me he is good because an analytic site said he didnt surrender a sack.  Saying that matters would tell you he is a better player than Dawkins, Morse and Feliciano because they gave up sacks and thats obviously not the case.

 

Totally disagree with this.  My opinion on Spain is going to be - what do you want from that position.  Since he was signed - he is easily the best pass blocking o-lineman the Bills have had.  He is not dominant, but he is always in a great position and battles to the end.  He picks up Stunts and tricks and is very good at stopping a rusher - passing him off - and picking up the delayed blitzer coming through the middle.  He has excellent feet to get into a position to protect Allen.  He is not a dominant run blocker - he will occupy guys, but he is not going to drive them off the ball.

 

To me - he and Morse at Center are very similar- they both have great technique in pass blocking and move around well, but neither are going to drive guys on run blocking.  I am ok with that as we have been transitioning to a more pass oriented offense to move the ball.  
 

Mongo on the other hand is exactly like his handle states - he is very physical and much more powerful in the run game than either Spain or Morse, but his aggression and his power also cause him to get out of position more on the pass blocking side and to miss things like stunts more frequently.  He tries to bury his guy and on more than one occasion last year - that caused him to get out of position and leave an opening for the defense to attack.

 

Spain is paid appropriately for what he does and he continues to be one of the best pass blockers on the team and that is crucial for this team going forward.  
 

I have no issues with the Bills trying to shift a few guys around.  If you are looking to run late in the game - Mongo and Ford at guards are most likely giving you the biggest push.  Heck even Mongo at Center last year replacing Morse got huge push in the running game.  If you want to pass and protect the QB - Spain, Morse are both going to be in there.  The other guard that has shown some pass blocking could be Winters - although it was tough to judge based on the day.  Ford and Mongo both also can fill that 2nd guard spot.

[BritBill]

2 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Yet another reason why I stay away from any casual fan's "analysis" of OL play -- and even some experts.  That said, I do give your opinions more consideration than most.

 

I wouldn't have a clue in an offensive lineman was having a good day or nor other than if he was a complete and obvious turnstile. However, I follow Brandon Thorn on Twitter who provides excellent and thorough analysis of linemen on both sides of the ball but he does seem to focus in on offensive linemen more.

 

He does annual rankings of all starting linemen and he certainly rates Spain higher than a lot of folk and especially Joe B. 

 

He also posted a video of Dawkins being particularly nasty finishing off a block and stated "Dawkins is good for a couple of these a game". I recommend Thorn as an OL analyst. 

[Blokestradamus]

2 minutes ago, BritBill said:

He also posted a video of Dawkins being particularly nasty finishing off a block and stated "Dawkins is good for a couple of these a game". I recommend Thorn as an OL analyst. 

 

I second the recommendation, Brandon is my go-to guy on OL analysis. His recent thread on Jedrick Wills was superb. 

[eball]

5 minutes ago, BritBill said:

 

I wouldn't have a clue in an offensive lineman was having a good day or nor other than if he was a complete and obvious turnstile. However, I follow Brandon Thorn on Twitter who provides excellent and thorough analysis of linemen on both sides of the ball but he does seem to focus in on offensive linemen more.

 

He does annual rankings of all starting linemen and he certainly rates Spain higher than a lot of folk and especially Joe B. 

 

He also posted a video of Dawkins being particularly nasty finishing off a block and stated "Dawkins is good for a couple of these a game". I recommend Thorn as an OL analyst. 

 

1 minute ago, Blokestradamus said:

 

I second the recommendation, Brandon is my go-to guy on OL analysis. His recent thread on Jedrick Wills was superb. 

 

Just added him as a follow on Twitter.

[GunnerBill]

15 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

I have no issues with the Bills trying to shift a few guys around.  If you are looking to run late in the game - Mongo and Ford at guards are most likely giving you the biggest push.  Heck even Mongo at Center last year replacing Morse got huge push in the running game.  If you want to pass and protect the QB - Spain, Morse are both going to be in there.  The other guard that has shown some pass blocking could be Winters - although it was tough to judge based on the day.  Ford and Mongo both also can fill that 2nd guard spot.

 

Yep - the two times Feliciano went to centre last year when Morse came out of games were two of the Bills' better running efforts of the season. He is mauler, an old fashioned brute and he gets his hands on dlinemen in the run game and he is gonna strain every sinew to move them back. I actually am not at all against Feliciano being used as a finisher when the Bills are trying to grind clock at the end of games. Who was it who wanted oline by committee?

[Back2Buff]

Doesn't Josh Allen have the most time to throw in the whole NFL?

 

Did our RBs avg like 5 ypc?

 

Please tell me again why Spain is getting harped on? 

[thenorthremembers]

2 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Totally disagree with this.  My opinion on Spain is going to be - what do you want from that position.  Since he was signed - he is easily the best pass blocking o-lineman the Bills have had.  He is not dominant, but he is always in a great position and battles to the end.  He picks up Stunts and tricks and is very good at stopping a rusher - passing him off - and picking up the delayed blitzer coming through the middle.  He has excellent feet to get into a position to protect Allen.  He is not a dominant run blocker - he will occupy guys, but he is not going to drive them off the ball.

 

To me - he and Morse at Center are very similar- they both have great technique in pass blocking and move around well, but neither are going to drive guys on run blocking.  I am ok with that as we have been transitioning to a more pass oriented offense to move the ball.  
 

Mongo on the other hand is exactly like his handle states - he is very physical and much more powerful in the run game than either Spain or Morse, but his aggression and his power also cause him to get out of position more on the pass blocking side and to miss things like stunts more frequently.  He tries to bury his guy and on more than one occasion last year - that caused him to get out of position and leave an opening for the defense to attack.

 

Spain is paid appropriately for what he does and he continues to be one of the best pass blockers on the team and that is crucial for this team going forward.  
 

I have no issues with the Bills trying to shift a few guys around.  If you are looking to run late in the game - Mongo and Ford at guards are most likely giving you the biggest push.  Heck even Mongo at Center last year replacing Morse got huge push in the running game.  If you want to pass and protect the QB - Spain, Morse are both going to be in there.  The other guard that has shown some pass blocking could be Winters - although it was tough to judge based on the day.  Ford and Mongo both also can fill that 2nd guard spot.

Very good analysis and post.   I disagree on the footwork and movement point on Spain.  I dont think you can really put he and Morse in the same category in ability there.  However, I do agree he has the mental part of the game down better than a lot of guards we have had come through Buffalo.   I still think he is an average to just above average player at the position.  He wears down later in games, and for me his performance in the playoff game last year was kind of inexcusable.  He is a solid player for the team, and I wont be upset if he remains the left guard. 

[FlaFitz1]

Way too early to judge on Epenesa.

 

Remember they put Oliver out for about 40 snaps per game to start the season then they pulled him back to around 20 for weeks 8 through 11 before bumping him back up to the mid 30s to finish out the season and he had the advantage of rookie mini camp, mini camp, OTAs, training camp and 4 preseason games to prepare.