Bob in STL Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 minute ago, HamSandwhich said: Yeah, Black Lives Matter the organization does not actually stand for what most people think they do. There are far better organizations out there that can help that don’t have a Marxist bent. Equality in their eyes means redistribution of wealth aka socialism/communism. Most people don’t understand the BLM Marxist connections or how they are funded. I’m not sure I do either and the media will not cover it. The basic concept of BLM resonates with well intended people, especially young people, because most of us are not racist and we did not raise our kids to be racist. However, simply blaming and defunding the front line Joe-Blow policeman for these problems won’t solve it either. Allowing protests to turn into destructive and dangerous riots, some lasting many months, that too is wrong. This is were we see a good cause become hijacked by extremists. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, jkeerie said: The majority aren't even aware the organization exists. Count me in this group. I did not know there was a BLM organization until recently. Somewhere between 63% and 67% of Americans support BLM depending on which poll you look at and I would wager the large majority of that group are not talking about that organization that happens to use that name. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said: I would say we are primarily a capitalist country. But with government bail-outs, social programs for low income families, federal financial aid for college we have a mixture. A true capitalist country would be 100% sink or swim. Goodbye most farming, auto industry, etc. I like the mixture. You can still prosper, but those that truly need the help can get it. Socialism is great until the people who pay for it run out of money , and then well everyone starves 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: What is Marxism? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, BillsRdue said: I don't buy it. The influx of money came in an election year at just the right time to cause chaos and push an agenda. When the FBI take a deep dive into BLM's sources of funding and it comes up clean, then they may get some credibility. But sparking outrage over a career criminal who OD'd on Fentanol and a man who repeatedly raped and stole from his ex-girlfirend, when she called the cops looking for protection and he had a weapon is not the best case scenario to drum up support for your cause. Don't get me wrong, in each instance I would have loved to see the police not use lethal force and that needs to change with better training and perhaps better means to arrest these criminals. But the fact is that both men committed crimes, needed to be arrested and resisted. It's just not a good look to create so much destruction over. Everyone thinks everything is political. Everything. Black Lives Matter became a thing during the Obama administration for the exact same issues. There were riots as well under the Obama administration. It's not a political thing. This issue of police brutality has been going on long before any of us were born. It's never gone away. It's just getting more coverage due to social media. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, Bob in STL said: Most people don’t understand the BLM Marxist connections or how they are funded. I’m not sure I do either and the media will not cover it. The basic concept of BLM resonates with well intended people, especially young people, because most of us are not racist and we did not raise our kids to be racist. However, simply blaming and defunding the front line Joe-Blow policeman for these problems won’t solve it either. Allowing protests to turn into destructive and dangerous riots, some lasting many months, that too is wrong. This is were we see a good cause become hijacked by extremists. What is Marxism? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lewes Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 55 minutes ago, Putin said: I wouldn’t run in to a burning building for you either if I was a cop Hey, Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkeerie Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: What is Marxism? In simple terms, a political and economic theory where there are no classes. Everyone works for the common good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Bob in STL said: Agree that the notion of defunding the police is a very bad message and bad idea. All of my black friends think this a bad idea too. Yes, get the bad ones out, that is a must - but let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. How about more training for police? Most everyone agrees with that idea but training will cost more money, not less. We can see in some of these cases that the police did not have the training to de-escalate and control some very volatile situations. In other cases mistakes are being made that could be prevented with more or better training. Maybe even better selection of police officers to start with? Defunding will not improve policing, it will help the criminals though. Too very important jobs In our society are the police and our school teachers and we continually fail to develop them and pay these people what they are worth. Better training, better pay, and more respect would attract better candidates into these important jobs. having less militaristic gear would be cheaper having the police not handle near as broad a scope of issues and turning some of that over to other civic offices would be cheaper policing having police not worry about crimes like weed and prostitution would be cheaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOUSE Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 hour ago, Doc Brown said: This thread will be fun. Good luck mods. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, Bill Lewes said: Hey, Thanks! You are welcome!! stock up on some water Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, jkeerie said: In simple terms, a political and economic theory where there are no classes. Everyone works for the common good. Not really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycage46 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Putin said: Socialism is great until the people who pay for it run out of money , and then well everyone starves Agreed, that's why I personally would not support total socialism. But there are legitimate instances where people work hard and still need help and I have no problem if my taxes go towards that. As I said, I like mixture of mainly capitalism with select social programs. Anyone who thinks this country is 100% capitalist is just plain wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said: I would say we are primarily a capitalist country. But with government bail-outs, social programs for low income families, federal financial aid for college we have a mixture. A true capitalist country would be 100% sink or swim. Goodbye most farming, auto industry, etc. I like the mixture. You can still prosper, but those that truly need the help can get it. i suppose it comes down to definition.. and yes your points about social programs , etc.. valid.. but they , the programs you enumerated are based/funded by capitialism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lewes Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 53 minutes ago, Putin said: I’m just saying not all cops are bad and that there’s cops risking their lives every day to save/help people , The conversation isn't about individual cops, it's about the structures that we've used for 400 years to separate people into "valuable" and "not really". It's about red-lining, and then how cops are trained and missioned to "protect and serve" those neighborhoods. It's about poverty and disenfranchisement. ... Of course not all cops are bad -- almost all of them are good -- but they system isn't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in STL Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, jkeerie said: In simple terms, a political and economic theory where there are no classes. Everyone works for the common good. Yes and the workers own the means of production. Everything is distributed equally in theory. It is the basis for communism and socialism. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Johnnycage46 said: Agreed, that's why I personally would not support total socialism. But there are legitimate instances where people work hard and still need help and I have no problem if my taxes go towards that. As I said, I like mixture of mainly capitalism with select social programs. Anyone who thinks this country is 100% capitalist is just plain wrong. I agree ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, Bob in STL said: Agree that the notion of defunding the police is a very bad message and bad idea. All of my black friends think this a bad idea too. Yes, get the bad ones out, that is a must - but let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. How about more training for police? Most everyone agrees with that idea but training will cost more money, not less. We can see in some of these cases that the police did not have the training to de-escalate and control some very volatile situations. In other cases mistakes are being made that could be prevented with more or better training. Maybe even better selection of police officers to start with? Defunding will not improve policing, it will help the criminals though. Too very important jobs In our society are the police and our school teachers and we continually fail to develop them and pay these people what they are worth. Better training, better pay, and more respect would attract better candidates into these important jobs. Defunding as a message has been diluted because different people have different ideas of what that means. From my view it ties into your “training” ideas. Cops are called to deal with issues they might not need to deal with if our country put more money into mental health care facilities and treatment with the personnel that required. Same regarding support of social workers and family dynamics. Put more money into those areas and less into militarizing police forces. All of that money hasn’t necessarily helped police or the public. I’m not one who wants to abolish police. Better vetting of who becomes police officers is a necessity, especially weeding out those with potential biases. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: What is Marxism? communism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, dwight in philly said: communism wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkeerie Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Bob in STL said: Yes and the workers own the means of production. Everything is distributed equally in theory. It is the basis for communism and socialism. Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycage46 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, dwight in philly said: i suppose it comes down to definition.. and yes your points about social programs , etc.. valid.. but they , the programs you enumerated are based/funded by capitialism Agreed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putin Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Congratulations everyone 5 pages and tread hasn’t been closed yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, GoBills808 said: wrong werent you inquiring about "what is marxism"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in STL Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, NoSaint said: having less militaristic gear would be cheaper having the police not handle near as broad a scope of issues and turning some of that over to other civic offices would be cheaper policing having police not worry about crimes like weed and prostitution would be cheaper Yes. All of those could reduce cost. But also: Less gear - more police deaths and injuries ( meaning maybe less effective in tough situations) Less scope - more of a cost transfer than a reduction weed and prostitution - the police do not make laws. We the people do. Vote for candidates that support what is important to you. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lewes Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 49 minutes ago, Beach said: sorry, im not into this anti-cop stuff. my friend, a cop, chased an armed robber. he chose not to shoot him. the robber shot him above his vest and it hit his clavicle and ricocheted into his heart and he died. he had a quick decision to make and it cost him his life. he is never coming back, his daughter is growing up without a father. bad cops should be taken off the force but the majority arent bad at all. they have a tough job and have to make decisions quickly. I'm saddened by your story - and grateful for cops, firefighters and others, who everyday in their normal lives risk for the rest of us. But, to be clear, most of the moments of this past year that have reignited all this frustration and anger don't really seem to fit into that split-second choice kind of moment - and that's really why folks notice and judge it to be wrong. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamSandwhich Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 24 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said: If you live in the US you are living in a country with socialism. No, mixed market. It’s not socialism, there are elements that could be part of a socialist country but the economy is fed by the free market capitalist economy. Don’t kid yourself. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffAlone Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Count me in this group. I did not know there was a BLM organization until recently. Somewhere between 63% and 67% of Americans support BLM depending on which poll you look at and I would wager the large majority of that group are not talking about that organization that happens to use that name. You are speaking of June's polls. look again as of end of August. Support nationally has gone down from 61% to 48%. Kinda funny how that happens when BLM "protests" murder innocent black men and burn down innocent black owned businesses. That right there is enough for many to #walkaway 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamSandwhich Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 13 minutes ago, Bob in STL said: Most people don’t understand the BLM Marxist connections or how they are funded. I’m not sure I do either and the media will not cover it. The basic concept of BLM resonates with well intended people, especially young people, because most of us are not racist and we did not raise our kids to be racist. However, simply blaming and defunding the front line Joe-Blow policeman for these problems won’t solve it either. Allowing protests to turn into destructive and dangerous riots, some lasting many months, that too is wrong. This is were we see a good cause become hijacked by extremists. Well said and I concur. I happen to agree with the fact that we need to figure out a way to ensure all people start with good education across the board so that everyone starts with like opportunities. However, Marxism/socialism is not the answer, imo. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 37 minutes ago, Johnnycage46 said: 5 pages. I'm betting 5 pages until this gets locked. 6 pages. I'm betting that by page 13 both sides will find a rational compromise and we can all get back to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, HappyDays said: Count me in this group. I did not know there was a BLM organization until recently. Somewhere between 63% and 67% of Americans support BLM depending on which poll you look at and I would wager the large majority of that group are not talking about that organization that happens to use that name. but to go a step further, we can’t say the organization is a lock step monolith. the person or incident that one chooses as the face of their own representation of it often speaks more about the person than the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said: No, mixed market. It’s not socialism, there are elements that could be part of a socialist country but the economy is fed by the free market capitalist economy. Don’t kid yourself. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, The VA ...... 1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said: 6 pages. I'm betting that by page 13 both sides will find a rational compromise and we can all get back to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You new here LOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamSandwhich Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, Mike in Horseheads said: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, The VA ...... You new here LOL Yep, you’ve labeled some of those things that would be elements of a socialist country. I said that already. What’s your point here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, BuffAlone said: You are speaking of June's polls. look again as of end of August. Support nationally has gone down from 61% to 48%. Kinda funny how that happens when BLM "protests" murder innocent black men and burn down innocent black owned businesses. That right there is enough for many to #walkaway The most recent poll I found is from NPR showing 53% support to 34% oppose and 9% don't know/don't care. That is a decline but still a clear majority. My larger point is that people conflate the organization with the movement. I doubt most Americans even know there is an organization with that name. What it really comes down to is that most Americans believe there is still racial inequality in America. Trying to dismiss BLM as "marxist" is just nonsense. 53% of Americans are not marxists. Edited September 12, 2020 by HappyDays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All_Pro_Bills Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 54 minutes ago, Beach said: sorry, im not into this anti-cop stuff. my friend, a cop, chased an armed robber. he chose not to shoot him. the robber shot him above his vest and it hit his clavicle and ricocheted into his heart and he died. he had a quick decision to make and it cost him his life. he is never coming back, his daughter is growing up without a father. bad cops should be taken off the force but the majority arent bad at all. they have a tough job and have to make decisions quickly. The irony is all the hypocrites moaning and groaning about the cops are going to call 911 when somebody breaks into their house or somebody puts their life and the lives of their family in danger. Or maybe they'll honor the social justice movement by letting the intruder rob their home and kill their family? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeFrommStateFarm Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 42 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Fromm would totally have had a bigger part if he wasn’t quarantined They should have had Fromm in the video. Maybe a zoom call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 Just now, HamSandwhich said: Yep, you’ve labeled some of those things that would be elements of a socialist country. I said that already. What’s your point here? Ya live it everyday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lewes Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 35 minutes ago, dwight in philly said: or calling for the lack of the need for the father in the household! please read their agenda! I have. You'll have to show me where you found that gem. Read it as it's intended. Don't put words in their mouths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnnycage46 Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: 6 pages. I'm betting that by page 13 both sides will find a rational compromise and we can all get back to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Lol hope so! We need actual Bills games in the worst way possible....so we can all get back to arguing about the team instead of "other" stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mike in Horseheads said: Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, The VA ...... You new here LOL Sorry I bumped my head and also I want the government to keep it's hands off my Medicare! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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