Matt Judon: Interesting Development in Negotiations

[DrDawkinstein]

Not sure this has ever been done before...

 

 

[MJS]

That should be the new standard. If you play both positions you should take the average of both.

[DJB]

5 minutes ago, MJS said:

That should be the new standard. If you play both positions you should take the average of both.

 

Agreed or even calculate  the % of snaps played at each position and weigh that  into how much $$$ they  should receive  

[RoyBatty is alive]

Always a big debate about if a large prolific receiver is a WR or really a TE.

[Mr. WEO]

Didn't this happen with Jimmy Graham years ago?

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Always a big debate about if a large prolific receiver is a WR or really a TE.

 

I'd say it depends on where the player spent the majority of his time.  On the line with his hand on the ground?  DE.  Next to a tackle?  A TE.

[Clutchwarfare]

If Clowney did this with the Texans, maybe he wouldn't be without a team right now.

But he held out, got traded, had an underwhelming season, and is now looking for a pay day, with little leverage.

There is long-term value gained in short-term compromise.

[SirAndrew]

Wonder if he wanted extra money for being a dirty player. 

[DrDawkinstein]

13 minutes ago, MJS said:

That should be the new standard. If you play both positions you should take the average of both.

 

It's not surprising to see out of arguably the best managed team in the NFL, and proves why Eric DeCosta earned the "Executive of the Year" award in his first year as GM.

 

Players willing to compromise as well in order to stay with the team.

 

Luckily, Beane doesnt seem too far behind and on the same track.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Clutchwarfare said:

If Clowney did this with the Texans, maybe he wouldn't be without a team right now.

But he held out, got traded, had an underwhelming season, and is now looking for a pay day, with little leverage.

There is long-term value gained in short-term compromise.

 

I dont blame any player for trying to milk the maximum out of teams that are run like the Texans.

 

Different story in Baltimore.

 

There is a bigger difference here in GMs than with the players involved.

Edited May 29, 2020 by DrDawkinstein

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Clutchwarfare said:

If Clowney did this with the Texans, maybe he wouldn't be without a team right now.

But he held out, got traded, had an underwhelming season, and is now looking for a pay day, with little leverage.

There is long-term value gained in short-term compromise.

 

I don't think anyone even wants to pay him $15.8M a year.

 

And the difference between DE and LB is just $2M. 

[SirAndrew]

10 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Always a big debate about if a large prolific receiver is a WR or really a TE.

I don’t think the terminology matters much, but any TE putting up stats equal to a number one or two WR should be paid as such. 

[Clutchwarfare]

4 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

I dont blame any player for trying to milk the maximum out of teams that are run like the Texans.

Respectfully asking serious question: If it's a key player on a team that is expected to compete for playoffs, holds out of camp/regular season games so he can "milk the maximum out of the team", knowing his teammates are counting on him, do you blame them for not compromising on a reasonable number in that case?

[bigK14094]

with the potential of no fans at games this year and the $5Billion loss of revenue for the league, I wonder about the cap situation going forward.  One year deals are going to abound, with the  cap , perhaps, going down next year.  If it can go up, it can  go down.  If you got signed , you were smart or lucky (Poyer Spain come to mind)  TV bucks for the NFL are big, but , $5 Billion + is a big hole in the revenue stream.

[DrDawkinstein]

5 minutes ago, Clutchwarfare said:

Respectfully asking serious question: If it's a key player on a team that is expected to compete for playoffs, holds out of camp/regular season games so he can "milk the maximum out of the team", knowing his teammates are counting on him, do you blame them for not compromising on a reasonable number in that case?

 

IMO, it really depends on the team and the FOs history on how it treats players. But in general, I dont have a problem with players trying to get the most money possible. They're the ones risking their long term health in a very short window to get paid.

 

I also don't think "teammates counting on him" comes into it much. The players know its a business.

 

Given how BOB acts as GM and HC, I have no problem with players doing whatever they can to max their money there (or force a trade). And it didnt really seem like the Texans needed Clowney to make the playoffs anyways.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by DrDawkinstein

[Clutchwarfare]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

IMO, it really depends on the team and the FOs history on how it treats players. But in general, I dont have a problem with players trying to get the most money possible. They're the ones risking their long term health in a very short window to get paid.

 

I also don't think "teammates counting on him" comes into it much. The players know its a business.

 

Given how BOB acts as GM and HC, I have no problem with players doing whatever they can to max their money there (or force a trade). And it didnt really seem like the Texans needed Clowney to make the playoffs anyways.

 

 

Fair enough. One thing I'm sure we agree on: GO BILLS

[Mike in Horseheads]

23 minutes ago, Clutchwarfare said:

If Clowney did this with the Texans, maybe he wouldn't be without a team right now.

But he held out, got traded, had an underwhelming season, and is now looking for a pay day, with little leverage.

There is long-term value gained in short-term compromise.

With any other team your pry correct, with the Texans they are shitshow with BOB

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, Clutchwarfare said:

Fair enough. One thing I'm sure we agree on: GO BILLS

 

1 minute ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

With any other team your pry correct, with the Texans they are shitshow with BOB

 

Exactly, Mike. On the flip side, I was pretty confident Leveon Bell was making a mistake with his holdout in Pittsburgh. As a RB and dealing with the Steelers, it seemed he was already getting the best offer possible. And sure enough, a year later, he took less money to end up with a crappy organization.

[Mike in Horseheads]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Exactly, Mike. On the flip side, I was pretty confident Leveon Bell was making a mistake with his holdout in Pittsburgh. As a RB and dealing with the Steelers, it seemed he was already getting the best offer possible. And sure enough, a year later, he took less money to end up with a crappy organization.

Bell and Antonio Brown thought they could double up on management and lost.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Bell and Antonio Brown thought they could double up on management and lost.

 

The Rooneys know a thing or two.

 

Compare that with Tunsil taking BOB to the woodshed while acting as his own agent! ?

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by DrDawkinstein

[Ya Digg?]

44 minutes ago, Clutchwarfare said:

Respectfully asking serious question: If it's a key player on a team that is expected to compete for playoffs, holds out of camp/regular season games so he can "milk the maximum out of the team", knowing his teammates are counting on him, do you blame them for not compromising on a reasonable number in that case?

I have heard players in the past and former players say it all the time - they never hold it against their teammates when they hold out for more money.  They all know it's a business and they are all trying to maximize the amount of money they can make in a short window of time.  As fans we all get offended when a player holds out, but the players all understand the reasons why someone would hold out.  

[K-9]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's not surprising to see out of arguably the best managed team in the NFL, and proves why Eric DeCosta earned the "Executive of the Year" award in his first year as GM.

 

Players willing to compromise as well in order to stay with the team.

 

Luckily, Beane doesnt seem too far behind and on the same track.

 

 

 

I dont blame any player for trying to milk the maximum out of teams that are run like the Texans.

 

Different story in Baltimore.

 

There is a bigger difference here in GMs than with the players involved.

Agree entirely. One of the best run organizations from top to bottom in all of pro sports. Pretty much has been since their inception. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

48 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

IMO, it really depends on the team and the FOs history on how it treats players. But in general, I dont have a problem with players trying to get the most money possible. They're the ones risking their long term health in a very short window to get paid.

 

I also don't think "teammates counting on him" comes into it much. The players know its a business.

 

Given how BOB acts as GM and HC, I have no problem with players doing whatever they can to max their money there (or force a trade). And it didnt really seem like the Texans needed Clowney to make the playoffs anyways.

 

 

The Ravens are a great organization.  They draft well.  The win most seasons.  They are well run.  The organization has a lot of pride and good history.  It would not have looked good for Judon to try and stick it to the Ravens.  I think there is a strong sense of loyalty in that franchise amongst the players between themselves, to John Harbaugh and to management.  And visa versa.  Sure its a business and each player wants to do well for themselves.  But I think on some franchises, like Baltimore and maybe Kansas City w Andy Reid,  among others, the players think beyond the money.  And I am sure Judon would rather take a little less playing for the Ravens then playing for say the Jags or Lions.  Teams like the Seahawks and Packers come to mind like that as well.  

 

And besides, I don't think guys like  Ray Lewis Ed Reed and Jonathan Ogden would be very happy with Raven players being disrespectful about the franchise.  I would hope the Bills would get to that level in the not too distant future with continued winning. 

[MJS]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's not surprising to see out of arguably the best managed team in the NFL, and proves why Eric DeCosta earned the "Executive of the Year" award in his first year as GM.

 

Players willing to compromise as well in order to stay with the team.

 

Luckily, Beane doesnt seem too far behind and on the same track.

Yes, they are well coaches and well managed. That's why, even if some don't see Lamar Jackson as a long-term passing threat at QB, the Ravens will always be relevant and tough to beat.

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I don't think anyone even wants to pay him $15.8M a year.

 

And the difference between DE and LB is just $2M. 

You are saying 'just $2m' like it is chump change !

[DrDawkinstein]

17 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

Players need to learn it is a zero sum game.  If someone is holding out including during season and signing contract to get year of seniority they are hurting team including fellow players.  They cannot reasonably complain if there is not enough money for them to get a raise when they say it is okay for players to hold out including on the field to avoid injuries to milk money from team.   Teams try that and overspend past cap and then they need to have years when they cannot compete and players complain they are wasting time on non competing team.

 

I'm sure they understand that, but they can't say it publicly. Nor should they. Any player who speaks out and suggests another player settles for less money may soon find themselves in the same position. If a player feels that strongly, they are free to take less than they can get, and let it be known. But even that is more frowned upon by other players than holding out would be.

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, ganesh said:

You are saying 'just $2m' like it is chump change !

 

It's not a huge divide is what I'm saying.  So they each shaved $1M off their desired price.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Exactly, Mike. On the flip side, I was pretty confident Leveon Bell was making a mistake with his holdout in Pittsburgh. As a RB and dealing with the Steelers, it seemed he was already getting the best offer possible. And sure enough, a year later, he took less money to end up with a crappy organization.

Somehow, this didn’t cross the mind of Melvin Gordon who managed even worse.

 

On topic, how is this really possible? Isn’t the tag language pretty concrete in its positional pay model? Can we tag a player and try to negotiate down their position? 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Always a big debate about if a large prolific receiver is a WR or really a TE.

It's usually the opposite. It's usually if a receiving TE is considered WR or TE

 

There isn't a WR in the NFL who goes into a 3 point stance on the LoS

[Billl]

2 hours ago, Clutchwarfare said:

Respectfully asking serious question: If it's a key player on a team that is expected to compete for playoffs, holds out of camp/regular season games so he can "milk the maximum out of the team", knowing his teammates are counting on him, do you blame them for not compromising on a reasonable number in that case?

Being an NFL player is first and foremost a career.  Your teammates don’t pay your bills.  “Next man up” sounds great until you’re the man who went down.  I can’t blame anyone for getting theirs.  Neither do their teammates 90% of the time.  Hell, they’re usually being advised by the same agent.

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Exactly, Mike. On the flip side, I was pretty confident Leveon Bell was making a mistake with his holdout in Pittsburgh. As a RB and dealing with the Steelers, it seemed he was already getting the best offer possible. And sure enough, a year later, he took less money to end up with a crappy organization.

 

1 hour ago, Mike in Horseheads said:

Bell and Antonio Brown thought they could double up on management and lost.

The Steelers lost too.  They’d have made the playoffs with Bell and Brown.

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

Being an NFL player is first and foremost a career.  Your teammates don’t pay your bills.  “Next man up” sounds great until you’re the man who went down.  I can’t blame anyone for getting theirs.  Neither do their teammates 90% of the time.  Hell, they’re usually being advised by the same agent.

 

The Steelers lost too.  They’d have made the playoffs with Bell and Brown.

They offered him above market value. Not sure what else they could have done.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

5 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

It's not surprising to see out of arguably the best managed team in the NFL, and proves why Eric DeCosta earned the "Executive of the Year" award in his first year as GM.

 

Players willing to compromise as well in order to stay with the team.

 

Luckily, Beane doesnt seem too far behind and on the same track.

 

 

 

I dont blame any player for trying to milk the maximum out of teams that are run like the Texans.

 

Different story in Baltimore.

 

There is a bigger difference here in GMs than with the players involved.

 

Newsome's still hanging around too, so even if Decosta gets final say - he's got a HOF executive to lean on.  The promotion was probably the only way to keep both of them.  In any case - he did a great job.  Took the Roman offense and really ran with it.  Added deep threats outside, allows roman to use TE's as boundary threats (as well as beast blockers), added a one cut runner like ingram.  I know john brown didn't play well there once LJ took over, but i think he would've been great there with Roman.  Runs tight routes and is a good deep ball tracker.  

[stinky finger]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

That should be the new standard. If you play both positions you should take the average of both.

 

Where the hell was this 50 years ago?

 

Sincerely, 

George Blanda 

[eball]

Baltimore is a fantastic organization.  I’m glad Buffalo is becoming one as well.

[CookieG]

4 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's usually the opposite. It's usually if a receiving TE is considered WR or TE

 

There isn't a WR in the NFL who goes into a 3 point stance on the LoS

Yeah, it came up many years ago, when Tony Gonzalez was tagged. The Chiefs used the TE tag on him and he fought it, mostly because he was near the league lead in receptions and/or yardage for WR's AND TE's. I think he still talks about it.

 

Later, Jimmy Graham fought the designation in New Orleans.

 

Graham had filed a grievance arguing that he deserved to be designated as a wide receiver under the franchise tag because he spent more time out wide and in the slot than at the line of the scrimmage, as tight ends did in the past.

Burbank concluded that Graham was aligned close enough to the line of scrimmage (four yards) for a majority of plays to be disqualified from the wide-receiver designation. Essentially, the slot doesn't count as out wide for franchise-tag purposes.

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/jimmy-graham-deemed-tight-end-in-system-arbitration-0ap2000000363018

 

 

[Augie]

36 minutes ago, eball said:

Baltimore is a fantastic organization.  I’m glad Buffalo is becoming one as well.

Along with the Chiefs, I hope we stand atop the AFC for years to come. I’m sick of the Cheaters* and Steelers representing us in the Super Bowl! I’m ready to be a serious contender and in the mix every year! 

[eball]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

Along with the Chiefs, I hope we stand atop the AFC for years to come. I’m sick of the Cheaters* and Steelers representing us in the Super Bowl! I’m ready to be a serious contender and in the mix every year! 

 

Augie, I think we are well positioned.  If Josh becomes the player I think he can be, the Bills will be in this conversation for the next decade.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2020 by eball

[Augie]

1 minute ago, eball said:

 

Augie, I think we are well positioned.  If Josh becomes the player I think he can be, the Bills will be in this conversation for the next decade.

 

 

 

I’m hoping the Chiefs defense is their undoing, and people figure out Lamar with time. We did well against him last year, and I don’t think his game is sustainable. I like our odds.  

[Ya Digg?]

6 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Players need to learn it is a zero sum game.  If someone is holding out including during season and signing contract to get year of seniority they are hurting team including fellow players.  They cannot reasonably complain if there is not enough money for them to get a raise when they say it is okay for players to hold out including on the field to avoid injuries to milk money from team.   Teams try that and overspend past cap and then they need to have years when they cannot compete and players complain they are wasting time on non competing team.

I think this is where the fans have huge misconceptions, especially Bills fans.  The teams can always get creative with the cap, they can always create enough room if they really want to sign a guy long term.  The problem with us as Bills fans is we haven't really had anyone worth paying a lot of money for.  The ones we have paid end up feeling like we overspent (Dareus, Mario Williams as examples).  It's not a zero sum game for them - it's a business plain and simple.  Might some of them take small hometown discounts, sure, but most of them are trying to maximize their money.  Put yourself in their shoes, ignore completely that you're a Bills fan - even if you're making 50 million, are you really willing to make 5-10 million less?  I'll be perfectly honest, I wouldn't.  It's not my job to figure out the cap.  That's what the GM is for, and the good ones know how to manipulate the cap.  It's my job to play the best football I possibly can, make the most money I can possibly make because I don't get a lot of time to make that kind of money.  If someone says they wouldn't take the max amount of money they could possibly make they are kidding themselves

[Paup 1995MVP]

2 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

I think this is where the fans have huge misconceptions, especially Bills fans.  The teams can always get creative with the cap, they can always create enough room if they really want to sign a guy long term.  The problem with us as Bills fans is we haven't really had anyone worth paying a lot of money for.  The ones we have paid end up feeling like we overspent (Dareus, Mario Williams as examples).  It's not a zero sum game for them - it's a business plain and simple.  Might some of them take small hometown discounts, sure, but most of them are trying to maximize their money.  Put yourself in their shoes, ignore completely that you're a Bills fan - even if you're making 50 million, are you really willing to make 5-10 million less?  I'll be perfectly honest, I wouldn't.  It's not my job to figure out the cap.  That's what the GM is for, and the good ones know how to manipulate the cap.  It's my job to play the best football I possibly can, make the most money I can possibly make because I don't get a lot of time to make that kind of money.  If someone says they wouldn't take the max amount of money they could possibly make they are kidding themselves

You think its just all about the money?  You don't think anyone plays for the love of the game anymore?  The competitiveness?  Being a warrior?  

 

Sure everyone wants to make a good living.  But these guys will still be relatively young when they are done playing.  And can actually go do something else.  By your user name, you must be pretty young.  Do you think a guy like Chris Spielman played football solely for the money?   Do you think the great Edmonton Oiler teams of the 80's played for the money?  They played because they loved hockey and playing the game they love for the best team in the world.  When you are in your 20's and early 30's, I could not think of anything better to be doing w one's life.  Ya Digg?  LOL

[auburnbillsbacker]

11 hours ago, MJS said:

That should be the new standard. If you play both positions you should take the average of both.

I think you should get the higher tag.