stevewin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 19 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: The Victory formation analogy is faulty. The ball is in the field of play. The QB has to down it to end the play. For a touchback (as opposed to a Center snap to the QB) the ball can just hit the ground--no one needs to "down it". ? This is a ridiculous thing to say The analogy starts from the time the ball is in the player's hands - and the analogy matches exactly. If a QB in victory formation (or any other time) has the ball and wants to give himself up he must take a knee. If a kick returner has the ball in his hand and wants to give himself up he must take a knee. Both by rule. Exact same application of rule as written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: True but someone does it every game. Catch and kneel. He never knelt, he put his hands out to his sides indicating to his teammates that he was not coming out, he caught it, but did not kneel. He then tried to flip it to the ref who knew it was still a live ball, so he did not catch it. Why did the alternate officials become involved? Aren’t they there as “alternates” in case of injury? They are not officiating unless they replace someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If the Texans player had ZERO intentions of returning the ball, then he should’ve just let it hit the end zone, automatic touchback. If he turned on the Jets after taking those two steps and managed to get past a sleeping Bills return team, there’s nothing none of us could say about it because he never gave himself up as spelled out in the rules. I guess Devin Hester’s play here should’ve been blown dead as well if the refs are allowed to judge “intent”: Hester Returns FG Attempt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codyny13 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Clearly the refs didn’t want to “hear about it,” so while it would’ve been a cheap TD, it shoulda been a TD...nobody would be that lackadaisical in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Stranded in Boston said: The other thing that's odd is that the back judge in the end zone clearly was aware of the wording of the touchback rule: he did not blow his whistle or signal, and he jumped aside when the returner flipped the ball to him. If the back judge knew the explicit rule, why the hell did he let himself be overruled by the sideline officials, who evidently did NOT know the wording of the rule? Because everyone ran up to him and said "OMG there's going to be a real sh!tstorm if we let this stand, we have to reverse it because we all know what he meant to do!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Stranded in Boston said: The other thing that's odd is that the back judge in the end zone clearly was aware of the wording of the touchback rule: he did not blow his whistle or signal, and he jumped aside when the returner flipped the ball to him. If the back judge knew the explicit rule, why the hell did he let himself be overruled by the sideline officials, who evidently did NOT know the wording of the rule? This is my problem. If the on field ref calls TB, whatever. But this makes it seem like he was pressured to change the ruling for some larger reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, JayBaller10 said: If the Texans player had ZERO intentions of returning the ball, then he should’ve just let it hit the end zone, automatic touchback. If he turned on the Jets after taking those two steps and managed to get past a sleeping Bills return team, there’s nothing none of us could say about it because he never gave himself up as spelled out in the rules. I guess Devin Hester’s play here should’ve been blown dead as well if the refs are allowed to judge “intent”: Hester Returns FG Attempt When he tossed the ball to the ref, his intent wasn't ambiguous... 2 minutes ago, stevewin said: Because everyone ran up to him and said "OMG there's going to be a real sh!tstorm if we let this stand, we have to reverse it because we all know what he meant to do!" Everyone knew what he meant to do because he did it--he gave up the ball to the ref. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: When he tossed the ball to the ref, his intent wasn't ambiguous... He tossed a live ball. It was ambiguous until that point because he hadn’t downed the football. Tossing a live ball doesn’t excuse him from abiding by the rules. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Everyone knew what he meant to do because he did it--he gave up the ball to the ref. Classic WEO contrarianism here. The dude didn't down it. Whether or not he gave himself up is irrelevant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: True but someone does it every game. Catch and kneel. This was a point made by the commentators in yesterday's game: it happens all the time and is not called a live ball. Just wondering if this is true. Does anybody know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Dafan said: Actually if you think about it, it should have been a safety. He tossed the ball forward which makes it an illegal pass in the endzone. Penalty in the endzone results in a safety. This is what I thought the refs were talking about...not overturning the whole TD. Nope, fumble. Players fumble the ball and the ball goes forward all the time. I've never seen one called a forward pass. It should have been TD, Buffalo. Now, if a Texans player recovered, yes. Illegal forward pass. Edited January 5, 2020 by Binghamton Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Joe in Winslow said: Classic WEO contrarianism here. The dude didn't down it. Whether or not he gave himself up is irrelevant. I'm not contrarian when I'm pointing out why the call was reversed. It was explained as such. Many disagree, but regarding the returners "intent"---it was crystal clear. That's why they reversed it. Pretty simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: When he tossed the ball to the ref, his intent wasn't ambiguous... Everyone knew what he meant to do because he did it--he gave up the ball to the ref. He meant to give himself up - but by rule did not. It is unambiguously defined in the rule book what needs to be done by a player to give himself up, and he did not do that. He did not hit the ground or take a knee - which is written in the rule as a requirement. It could not be more clear cut. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I'm not contrarian when I'm pointing out why the call was reversed. It was explained as such. Many disagree, but regarding the returners "intent"---it was crystal clear. That's why they reversed it. Pretty simple We know WHY it was reversed. THAT it was reversed is the problem. Edited January 5, 2020 by sodbuster 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said: He tossed a live ball. It was ambiguous until that point because he hadn’t downed the football. Tossing a live ball doesn’t excuse him from abiding by the rules. It wasn't ambiguous--within 2 seconds he tossed it to the ref. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, sodbuster said: We know WHY it was reversed. THAT it was reversed is that problem. Exactamente, oh buster of sod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, sodbuster said: We know WHY it was reversed. THAT it was reversed is that problem. obviously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 This is a meh situation up until the refs banged us in overtime by applying the letter of the law to that Ford block. No common sense there when our chance to win was taken from us. The league is becoming a massive joke with officiating. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said: This is the "spirit of the rule" nonsense they pull in hoops, especially NCAA hoops regarding OOB plays where one player bangs it harder, but it appears to touch the other player LAST. There's no such thing as "spirit" as it pertains to rules. They're just rules. I gather the official will sometimes blow the whistle in situations like the one in question here, and he didn't. It would have been a "cheap" TD, but it should have been a "cheap" TD. What’s particularly galling here is that the official got it right and then was overruled based on an incorrect interpretation of the rule. Totally inexcusable. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If the runner had changed his mind and decided to run it out, and had returned it for a TD, does anyone think the TD would have been called back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoid8jr Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 This has nothing to do with intent, what we think happened, etc. IMO, it should be viewed as interpretation of the law, ie, what does the rule book say and what happened. If we agree to look at it through that lens, there is simply no defense for it not being 6 for the Bills. I agree fully that it would've felt "bush league" to get that TD but the book is the book and the NFL needs to follow it to preserve the integrity of the game. Does anyone know or understand the ref wearing all black who ran onto the field was clearly responsible for changing the call? Watched a lot of football in my life but that was a first. Perhaps it's a playoff only type thing but it didn't pass the sniff test then or now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augie Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Boy! If we don’t get an apology letter, I’m gonna get MAD! ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Do The Reich Thing Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 They got the call WRONG. That's all there really is to it. Put it up there with the notorious bad calls in Bills history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: I'm not contrarian when I'm pointing out why the call was reversed. It was explained as such. Many disagree, but regarding the returners "intent"---it was crystal clear. That's why they reversed it. Pretty simple If "receivers intent" was part of the rule, you would have a point. but its not, so your point is irrelevant to whether the call was correct or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris heff Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: I'm not contrarian when I'm pointing out why the call was reversed. It was explained as such. Many disagree, but regarding the returners "intent"---it was crystal clear. That's why they reversed it. Pretty simple What if a rookie WR forgets he’s now in the NFL, he catches the ball falls down untouched, he stands and flips ball to official that lets it hit the ground, no whistle. Is it a fumble or was the assumption to be his “intent” was to give himself up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Chaos said: If the runner had changed his mind and decided to run it out, and had returned it for a TD, does anyone think the TD would have been called back? You mean if he went to the ref and asked for the ball back and then ran for a TD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: It wasn't ambiguous--within 2 seconds he tossed it to the ref. Within 2 seconds Hester went from taking two steps in the end zone to a full sprint. One tossed the ball to the ref, the other sprinted out of the end zone. Neither player gave himself up, the guy tossed a live ball, whether you want to acknowledge that or not. The refs aren’t there to interpret “intent,” they’re there to enforce rules. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, mannc said: What’s particularly galling here is that the official got it right and then was overruled based on an incorrect interpretation of the rule. Totally inexcusable. "This doesn't FEEL right, so let's just call it a touchback." Feelings are not facts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, whatdrought said: This is a meh situation up until the refs banged us in overtime by applying the letter of the law to that Ford block. No common sense there when our chance to win was taken from us. The league is becoming a massive joke with officiating. well put. I felt the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starrymessenger Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, stevewin said: He meant to give himself up - but by rule did not. It is unambiguously defined in the rule book what needs to be done by a player to give himself up, and he did not do that. He did not hit the ground or take a knee - which is written in the rule as a requirement. It could not be more clear cut. Absolutely agree. But is this something that happens a lot and that gets treated as a touchback? Some rules are honoured more in the breach than in the observance. If that's the case it's hard to argue that it's a live ball. If it's not, and this event is an outlier then the call was really very wrong. Edited January 5, 2020 by starrymessenger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 If the Bills returner did that and the Texans were awarded a touchdown do you think they reverse the call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: You mean if he went to the ref and asked for the ball back and then ran for a TD? If you can point out one another example in NFL history were "receivers intent" was part of the a rules interpretation than you have a point. If you cannot do that, than just admit you are flat out 100% wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, chris heff said: What if a rookie WR forgets he’s now in the NFL, he catches the ball falls down untouched, he stands and flips ball to official that lets it hit the ground, no whistle. Is it a fumble or was the assumption to be his “intent” was to give himself up? no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobbRiddicksTDLeap Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, whatdrought said: This is a meh situation up until the refs banged us in overtime by applying the letter of the law to that Ford block. No common sense there when our chance to win was taken from us. The league is becoming a massive joke with officiating. This!!! I said this in another post. The bigger issue is now the referee can use “common sense” to determine “intent”. Neither of which matter in a game with clearly defined and UNIVERSALLY accepted rules. The example of the victory formation is perfect. The intent is there to take a knee, but you don’t have too and it’s a live ball until you do. Ask Greg Schiano. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chaos said: If the runner had changed his mind and decided to run it out, and had returned it for a TD, does anyone think the TD would have been called back? Nope, and this point should not be brushed aside. At times a player will do something like this to catch the gunners napping and run it out when they slow down. I initially thought he may have been doing this until it was clear it was just a gaffe on his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILBillsfan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 it should of been a TD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said: Within 2 seconds Hester went from taking two steps in the end zone to a full sprint. One tossed the ball to the ref, the other sprinted out of the end zone. Neither player gave himself up, the guy tossed a live ball, whether you want to acknowledge that or not. The refs aren’t there to interpret “intent,” they’re there to enforce rules. The toss is the intent. I'm not sure how that wasn't obvious as a signal he wasn't going to run it out. ANd that's what the refs concluded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call_Of_Ktulu Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 35 minutes ago, Motorin' said: The only argument you could make was that by throwing it to the ref it was an act of "giving himself up." Up until that point it could have been a trick play. But throwing it to the ref and walking away from the ball is a pretty clear indication that wasn't faking it. But the ref knew the rule and didn’t touch the ball and looked like he even threw a marker or something at it. It should’ve been a TD and that crew should be banned from the playoffs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, Mr. WEO said: The toss is the intent. I'm not sure how that wasn't obvious as a signal he wasn't going to run it out. ANd that's what the refs concluded. Hello, McFly? “INTENT” IS NOT IN THE RULES! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billzgobowlin Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: The Victory formation analogy is faulty. The ball is in the field of play. The QB has to down it to end the play. For a touchback (as opposed to a Center snap to the QB) the ball can just hit the ground--no one needs to "down it". What if a guy catches the ball in the end zone and fumbles it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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