thebandit27 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: No. If a 4% bad throw rate isn’t significant, neither is a 3% difference in drop rate. Two things: 1) I didn’t say it was insignificant; I said that simply referring to rank without contextual reference implies a much greater difference than what the actual numbers show 2) This is as disingenuous as it gets. You’re really implying that having double the drop rate—something that is entirely beyond his control—doesn’t adversely affect Allen’s performance metrics? That’s total horse manure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 6:18 PM, Buffalo716 said: Agreed A football conversation with somebody saying they'd rather have Watson sparked this interest in me ....um...er....well...uh....ALLEN dammit.....think he has made great strides in year 2, avoiding the dreaded "sophomore slump"....offensive remake, new coaches, Daboll (hopefully) becoming more confident in this kid's attributes.....not taking anything away from the Watson kid, but I think he has somewhat better offensive weapons...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, thebandit27 said: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing_advanced.htm There’s a fair bit that you’re leaving out: That apparently huge difference between 9 and 20 in on-target percentage amounts to 3%. Not exactly the chasm you’re implying. Same goes for bad throw percentage; the difference is 4%. The difference in CAY/PA is half a yard. Now for the stuff that you didn’t mention: Allen suffered a drop rate of 7.2%—highest in the NFL. Watson’s was 4.4%. WR play matters. Both QBs faced the same number of hurried despite Watson having more attempts; Allen was also hit 4 more times. OL play matters. Even though their respective efficiencies on RPOs are very similar, Josh had less than half of Watson’s combined run/pass attempts from RPO plays. Play calling matters. I find it rather interesting that you left out a significant measure of context after calling me out for cherry picking/obfuscating (actually it was for being “strawmanny” earlier in this thread (and it was in a different thread). His NFL track record? Not really. He has one playoff win over the Connor Cook lead Raiders. I like Watson, but let’s be accurate. Pretty sure he’s 0-1 in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Pretty much supports what I said - Houston are bottom 6 and the Bills are about average. They are probably a couple of spots lower than I would have them on eye test but nothing there that significantly contradicts my view. You might have been talking about BO'B here I am not sure but Watson wasn't yet drafted when they beat the Raiders. I think that was the Brocketship. Aw crud, you’re right Thanks Just now, NewEra said: Pretty sure he’s 0-1 in the playoffs. Yeah I got his record crossed up with O’Brien’s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 34 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: True. Do you suppose that such a humongous drop rate might have a trickle-down effect on stats like YPA, TD %, INT%, and CAY/PA? That was more my point in citing that statistic. I feel his drop rate is a bit higher than it should be because he throws the ball too hard at times. I love watching him fire laser beams all around the field, but on a few throws, if his WRs had an additional fraction of a second to react, I feel they would’ve made the catches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, thebandit27 said: Two things: 1) I didn’t say it was insignificant; I said that simply referring to rank without contextual reference implies a much greater difference than what the actual numbers show 2) This is as disingenuous as it gets. You’re really implying that having double the drop rate—something that is entirely beyond his control—doesn’t adversely affect Allen’s performance metrics? That’s total horse manure. You call me disingenuous? How bout instead of calling it “double” the drop rate, you give the context of # of dropped passes per game difference it truly is? Does drop rate affect his bad throw rating? Does it affect his on target percentage? No and no, which is why I picked those stats. Unless you think Zay Jones dropping a pass or two means that Allen put more in the hospitality tent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said: You call me disingenuous? How bout instead of calling it “double” the drop rate, you give the context of # of dropped passes per game difference it truly is? Does drop rate affect his bad throw rating? Does it affect his on target percentage? No and no, which is why I picked those stats. Unless you think Zay Jones dropping a pass or two means that Allen put more in the hospitality tent. Yes, totally disingenuous including in this very post. I made it clear that the highest drop rate will almost certainly have a trickle down effect on other stats like YPA etc. You’ve decided to completely ignore that and pivot to other stats. It’s also nothing short of intentional misrepresentation to categorize the number of drops as “Zay Jones dropped a pass or two”. No offense, but I no longer believe that you’re really interested in a factual discussion on this topic. EDIT... You know what? That was too strong a reply. My apologies. This discussion isn’t going anywhere and we should be more focused on the positive today. Go Bills. Edited January 4, 2020 by thebandit27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCbillsfan Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 I'll take Allen since he's on the Bills. Watson is a heckuva player and a good person. I think Allen is just scratching the surface. If he keeps working on his game and they get him two more receivers, one of them being a true WR1, to go along with Brown and Beasley - Look Out!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 hour ago, thebandit27 said: Yes, totally disingenuous including in this very post. I made it clear that the highest drop rate will almost certainly have a trickle down effect on other stats like YPA etc. You’ve decided to completely ignore that and pivot to other stats. It’s also nothing short of intentional misrepresentation to categorize the number of drops as “Zay Jones dropped a pass or two”. No offense, but I no longer believe that you’re really interested in a factual discussion on this topic. EDIT... You know what? That was too strong a reply. My apologies. This discussion isn’t going anywhere and we should be more focused on the positive today. Go Bills. Don’t you ever apologize to me! We definitely both hope Watson plays like Peterman today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nextmanup Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 I'm not a huge fan of Watson, but I'd take him for sure as he's the clearly better QB. On 1/1/2020 at 6:21 PM, elijah said: If you’re choosing Allen over Watson you’re blinding yourself as a Bills fan. This shouldn’t be a debate. Im as big of an Allen supporter as there is, but Watson is primed to be one of the best in the league for a long long time. C'mon man! This is 2BD! Where the blind lead the blind every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Lollllll not even close. Watson 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSHMEAB Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Gary Busey said: Lollllll not even close. Watson 100% Just why dude? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Sick poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, LSHMEAB said: Just why dude? Hes a baller. Great year for Allen but Watson is the reason the Texans won. Good luck in 2020 Buffalo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 The correct answer is still Watson. Thanks everyone for playing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Josh looked like he might cry. id also still bet he took a concussion (after all his nonsense though) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lionel Hutz Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Watson. Allen is not mature enough to win at the highest level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warren Zevon Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, NoSaint said: Josh looked like he might cry. id also still bet he took a concussion (after all his nonsense though) Id cry too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dopey Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Watson, all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Ultimately when the game was on the line this question was answered. His offense was crumbling and he put the game on his back. Josh played a decent game. A brilliant first half and a so-so 2nd / OT. But the better Quarterback won today. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 That was quite a meltdown by Allen. Still has way too much Hero Ball in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbarrettb Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Josh Allen 52% passing f you dude! You ruin the playoffs for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tcampbell104 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 i said watson he is more playoff ready qb. allen is young and crumbled under the pressure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Ultimately when the game was on the line this question was answered. His offense was crumbling and he put the game on his back. Josh played a decent game. A brilliant first half and a so-so 2nd / OT. But the better Quarterback won today. So-so? I thought I was watching EJ in London in the second half. Josh was absolutely out of control. You could hear him hyperventilating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: Ultimately when the game was on the line this question was answered. His offense was crumbling and he put the game on his back. Josh played a decent game. A brilliant first half and a so-so 2nd / OT. But the better Quarterback won today. I still think you are overstating the first. He played well - at times excellent but he got very lucky a few times. If the same exact throw was a pick 6 and the same exact tackle had his knee up about a tenth of a second for the fumble it wouldn’t have been brilliant and would’ve changed nothing in his actual play. He also was disorganized on the end of half along with the coaches- the greats playing brilliantly don’t have that happen there. 1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said: So-so? I thought I was watching EJ in London in the second half. Josh was absolutely out of control. You could hear him hyperventilating. for a LONG stretch too it wasn’t a bad play or something. Amazed they couldn’t reel him back in at any point honestly gives me pause about times I’ve said McD keeps him too tight if that’s what could happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, NoSaint said: I still think you are overstating the first. He played well - at times excellent but he got very lucky a few times. If the same exact throw was a pick 6 and the same exact tackle had his knee up about a tenth of a second for the fumble it wouldn’t have been brilliant and would’ve changed nothing in his actual play. He also was disorganized on the end of half along with the coaches- the greats playing brilliantly don’t have that happen there. for a LONG stretch too it wasn’t a bad play or something. Amazed they couldn’t reel him back in at any point honestly gives me pause about times I’ve said McD keeps him too tight if that’s what could happen Downside of Daboll in the booth, he can’t see Josh’s body language. Every time the camera was on him, you could feel his anxiety. I would have called 10 runs in a row before I let him throw again like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Angel Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Allen...Watson has another year in the league and better recievers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, kbarrettb said: Josh Allen 52% passing f you dude! You ruin the playoffs for everyone. Are you a ten year old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mshaw Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 god this thread is so painful to read Allen will never even reach Watsons level even if he tried his best. that game vs Dallas was his ceiling and fans don't wanna admit it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Allen was 24/46 for 264 with a 5.7 average 0 TDs and a 69.5 rating against one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL. Watson was 20/25 for 247 with a 9.9 average, 1 TD and a 121.2 rating against one of the best pass defenses in the NFL. Is this thread still a thing? 4 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 No rational person would choose Josh Allen over Watson at this point of their careers. Watson was the main reason Houston won. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre1236 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Allen threw up all over himself and Watson won the game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrober38 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Watson is a star. Allen is still a liability. Switch the QBs and we win by 30+. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pre1236 said: Allen threw up all over himself and Watson won the game. That pretty much sums it up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) The fact that this is even a question people are willing to entertain shows the insanity of the Bills fanbase and why we're a joke of an organization. 2 time NCAA Champ, who would have been OROTY if he hadn't gotten hurt, 2x Pro Bowler ,and has won back to back division championships. Meanwhile Allen came in 3rd place in his division in the Mountain West, has never thrown a 300 yard game, and leads the league in fumbles. Edited January 5, 2020 by BullBuchanan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToGoGo Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 We had him on the ropes. I always liked Watson, and he definitely has intangibles, but I still like Allen's ceiling more. Watson has incredible weapons to throw to. We should've won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Prostrate yourself if you voted for Allen! Repent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, jrober38 said: Watson is a star. Allen is still a liability. Switch the QBs and we win by 30+. Not sure by 30.... but I agree we swap the QBs and the Bills definitely win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Not sure we are any closer now than we were at the beginning of the season in knowing if Josh is that guy. Fortunately he didn't get intercepted today and that was luck. The fumble.. I guess it could happen to anyone. But that throw out of bounds? What the hell? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codyny13 Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 F this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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