Allen or Watson ( Who would you rather have leading your team Saturday)

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Watson threw to himself and ran it all himself.  Not.  There's a reason why DeAndre Hopkins is All World and when I see him, I Covet.

 

I don't want to take away from Watson, who played great, but it helped him a lot that he was throwing to DeAndre Hopkins and that they were able to generate consistent rush yards with Hyde and Johnson. 

 

Like I said, this loss is a real Rorschach test for people's inner biases.

 

I am sorry but as great as DHop is that win yesterday was more about Watson than DHop. Even that deep ball while he ran a great route the throw was absolute perfection. Talk about in the bucket. Wasn't Hopkins who scrambled in for their first 8 points to get them back in the game. Wasn't Hopkins who overcame an utterly inept offensive line performance to avoid pressure time after time and ultimately so to make the game winning play. 

 

Hopkins was good yesterday. He was 6 for 90 but he also had a bad fumble and was an auxiliary piece. The man who won that game for Houston yesterday more than anybody else was Deshaun Watson. Without him it just doesn't happen.

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you think the result would have been different if the QBs just swapped teams?

 

Yes. I do. That isn't to say I blame Josh for the defeat. I most certainly don't. But the guy who did the most of anyone on either side to win that game yesterday was Deshaun Watson. 

 

EDIT: I should add to this that it would only have taken 3 or 4 plays going the other way for me to say I thought Josh did the most to win that game. But that is the point. The NFL comes down to small margins and those 3 or 4 really bad plays Josh had 2nd half they are the small margins. That is this league. Watson was on his 2nd go at the playoffs and he looked like a guy who had learned the hard way last year that when it is going against you then you need to just stick in there, avoid the killer mistake and eventually there will be a chance to make your plays. That is what Josh needs to learn from this loss. However anyone suggesting the "blame" lies at Josh's door is wrong. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Billl]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

So let me see if I get this: putting your WR in position to make a play also counts, but not if it’s John Brown failing to drag his foot at the 3, which could’ve set up a key TD, or Duke dropping a TD, or Duke dropping a first down in OT? Because those things all happened.

Did Watson get lucky because Daboll chose to run Frank Gore in key situations twice?

 

You really enjoy duplicitous analyses huh?

It’s comforting to know that Josh is good enough to beat a mediocre team as long as every other player on his team makes every catch, every block, his coaches call perfect plays, etc.  Oh, and the other team has to drop multiple interceptions, make dumb coaching decisions, etc. as well.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Billl said:

It’s comforting to know that Josh is good enough to beat a mediocre team as long as every other player on his team makes every catch, every block, his coaches call perfect plays, etc.  Oh, and the other team has to drop multiple interceptions, make dumb coaching decisions, etc. as well.

So he should make the throws and the catches and the blocks and the runs in your world.

[thebandit27]

6 minutes ago, Billl said:

It’s comforting to know that Josh is good enough to beat a mediocre team as long as every other player on his team makes every catch, every block, his coaches call perfect plays, etc.  Oh, and the other team has to drop multiple interceptions, make dumb coaching decisions, etc. as well.

I am flabbergasted by the number of fans that feel the need to turn every Allen discussion into an either/or scenario.

 

Don't do it. Be smart. It’s both that Allen didn’t play well enough and that his supporting cast didn’t make the plays that they could have made. 

[Billl]

48 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

And what did Watson do in the first half ? Allen’s second half was disappointing for sure, but the coaches blew this game in a quarter and a half with a 16 point lead. Their all pro WR had 90 yards the second half as well, so he won that matchup. If either of two Bills defenders get Watson on the ground, the Bills may have pulled it out and you would be staying away from this board for at least a week or so. 

Watson’s first half wasn’t about what he did.  It’s about what he didn’t do.  He didn’t drop the ball on the ground for no reason.  He didn’t panic and randomly lateral the ball backwards for no reason.  He didn’t throw a jump ball to his fullback who was double covered.  He didn’t throw easy pick sixes.  He didn’t take a horrible penalty to cost his team points.

 

He was bad in the first half, but he didn’t lose the game for them.  He made as many splash plays as Josh, but he didn’t make the huge mistakes.

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Watson’s first half wasn’t about what he did.  It’s about what he didn’t do.  He didn’t drop the ball on the ground for no reason.  He didn’t panic and randomly lateral the ball backwards for no reason.  He didn’t throw a jump ball to his fullback who was double covered.  He didn’t throw easy pick sixes.  He didn’t take a horrible penalty to cost his team points.

 

He was bad in the first half, but he didn’t lose the game for them.  He made as many splash plays as Josh, but he didn’t make the huge mistakes.

So you missed the easy pick-6 that Siran Neal dropped then huh?

 

Or are you cherry picking?

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Watson’s first half wasn’t about what he did.  It’s about what he didn’t do.  He didn’t drop the ball on the ground for no reason.  He didn’t panic and randomly lateral the ball backwards for no reason.  He didn’t throw a jump ball to his fullback who was double covered.  He didn’t throw easy pick sixes.  He didn’t take a horrible penalty to cost his team points.

 

He was bad in the first half, but he didn’t lose the game for them.  He made as many splash plays as Josh, but he didn’t make the huge mistakes.

 

This is true. But, as I keep saying, Watson has had one year of playoff football to learn from his mistakes. That is what we need to hope for from Josh. 

[CodeMonkey]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This is true. But, as I keep saying, Watson has had one year of playoff football to learn from his mistakes. That is what we need to hope for from Josh. 

Without question real Bills fans hope for that kind of improvement out of Josh Allen.

The question is, how likely do you think that is.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Billl said:

Watson’s first half wasn’t about what he did.  It’s about what he didn’t do.  He didn’t drop the ball on the ground for no reason.  He didn’t panic and randomly lateral the ball backwards for no reason.  He didn’t throw a jump ball to his fullback who was double covered.  He didn’t throw easy pick sixes.  He didn’t take a horrible penalty to cost his team points.

 

He was bad in the first half, but he didn’t lose the game for them.  He made as many splash plays as Josh, but he didn’t make the huge mistakes.

And again the throw to DiMarco should have been caught; he had position and mistimed his jump.

 

And again the lateral while dumb had no impact on the outcome of the game.

 

And again there were no pick sixes at all, so why you would include that is mind numbingly silly.

 

And again the intentional grounding was not much different than taking the sack.

 

Allen made two plays that directly impacted the win:  the fumble that gave them three points, and on the grounding thing he should have just thrown it away (although I think there were two penalties called that play so if correct that would not have mattered anyway).  He has to protect the ball better when he runs.  Needs to continue getting better at pre-snap reads and such.  All valid.  

 

But you just keep continuing your little trip in Fantasyland.  

 

[Boatdrinks]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

Watson’s first half wasn’t about what he did.  It’s about what he didn’t do.  He didn’t drop the ball on the ground for no reason.  He didn’t panic and randomly lateral the ball backwards for no reason.  He didn’t throw a jump ball to his fullback who was double covered.  He didn’t throw easy pick sixes.  He didn’t take a horrible penalty to cost his team points.

 

He was bad in the first half, but he didn’t lose the game for them.  He made as many splash plays as Josh, but he didn’t make the huge mistakes.

He didn’t fumble, granted. That’s always a plus.  However, his team had zero points. He didn’t do much of anything, Zero is zero, and it’s not good however you slice it.  Almost INTs , throws into double coverage and laterals that aren’t turn overs mean exactly zero in the outcome . 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, CodeMonkey said:

Without question real Bills fans hope for that kind of improvement out of Josh Allen.

The question is, how likely do you think that is.

 

I certainly think it is possible. I see no reason to believe it won't happen. 

[Reks Ryan]

19 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

Ultimately that’s true. It’s also true, however, that there were several times he made plays that were either called back by penalty, dropped, or were a whiffed block away from setting up the GW FG (looking at you, Knox).

 

Team effort all around.

That missed block is on Morse too.  Both Knox and Morse forgot to block anyone.    On the first QB Sweep.  Morse blocked the LB and Knox made a block further downfield.

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

Without question real Bills fans hope for that kind of improvement out of Josh Allen.

The question is, how likely do you think that is.

It depends on what they put around him on offense. They’re a couple players short on that side of the ball. You’re question isn’t really pertinent to the situation because like it or not, Allen’s going to be given the chance for the Bills brass ( and fans) to find out. 

[unclepete]

3 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

This board is filled with homers who don't watch anyone but the Bills play football.

Two weeks ago, 8 people went on record saying they wouldn't take Lamar Jackson over Josh Allen. 

 

Totally insane. 

Absolutely incredible. 

[Billl]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

He didn’t fumble, granted. That’s always a plus.  However, his team had zero points. He didn’t do much of anything, Zero is zero, and it’s not good however you slice it.  Almost INTs , throws into double coverage and laterals that aren’t turn overs mean exactly zero in the outcome . 

Not all zeroes are created equal.  Scoring zero points and punting is much better than fumbling or throwing a pick six.  This is pretty basic stuff.  You know this.  It’s embarrassing to pretend that Josh belonged on the same field as Watson.  Read any other team’s message board.  Allen is a punchline.  

[oldmanfan]

Just now, BringBackOrton said:

Is taking a sack to put you out of FG range okay now?

What did I write?  Did I not write that the two things he did that cost us were the fumble and that he should have thrown it away on the grounding play?   Did I not write that?

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

What did I write?  Did I not write that the two things he did that cost us were the fumble and that he should have thrown it away on the grounding play?   Did I not write that?

I missed it and tried to delete it fast! My bad

[CodeMonkey]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

It depends on what they put around him on offense. They’re a couple players short on that side of the ball. You’re question isn’t really pertinent to the situation because like it or not, Allen’s going to be given the chance for the Bills brass ( and fans) to find out. 

Of course the question is relevant.  And no one here makes team decisions.  The topic of this entire thread makes it a relevant question.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Reks Ryan said:

That missed block is on Morse too.  Both Knox and Morse forgot to block anyone.    On the first QB Sweep.  Morse blocked the LB and Knox made a block further downfield.

 

 

 

Such a great call and well designed play. Should have been the game winner. Execution.

[thebandit27]

1 minute ago, Billl said:

Not all zeroes are created equal.  Scoring zero points and punting is much better than fumbling or throwing a pick six.  This is pretty basic stuff.  You know this.  It’s embarrassing to pretend that Josh belonged on the same field as Watson.  Read any other team’s message board.  Allen is a punchline.  

So not all point totals are equal? Awesome. Whose 19 points were worth more at the end of regulation? That’s a brutal take.

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, Billl said:

Not all zeroes are created equal.  Scoring zero points and punting is much better than fumbling or throwing a pick six.  This is pretty basic stuff.  You know this.  It’s embarrassing to pretend that Josh belonged on the same field as Watson.  Read any other team’s message board.  Allen is a punchline.  

Okay troll. Obviously a punt is better than a pick six. Josh Allen didn’t throw one though. Allen had a good first half that probably should have resulted in a larger lead if his WR catches a perfect pass in the endzone. Yes, he made mistakes, but saying he didn’t belong on the same field in a 3 point playoff loss ? Talk about embarrassing . He was far from flawless, but counting almost INTs is just pure nonsense . Enjoy the board. You’ll find a few like minded friends. 

[JoshAllin]

I'd take allen for sure, especially for the playoffs vs ravens, watson could only muster 7 pts, allen almost led them to 24 pts vs that sting ravens D, no way houston survives next week

[CodeMonkey]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I certainly think it is possible. I see no reason to believe it won't happen. 

Anything is possible.  It is possible I become the Bills QB next season and win the SB.  Super crazy unlikely, but possible.  

The reasons to doubt it. at least a little, are his entire football career.

 

Hope springs eternal, but I am a logical person which dooms me to pay attention to my head more than my heart.

[Boatdrinks]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

So not all point totals are equal? Awesome. Whose 19 points were worth more at the end of regulation? That’s a brutal take.

Hey, all those almost turnovers by Josh Allen really did his team in. He’s a punchline ! 

[CodeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

Hey, all those almost turnovers by Josh Allen really did his team in. He’s a punchline ! 

Boy they sure should have.  Thank goodness the Texans D couldn't take advantage,  I think the Bills D scores at least once in those situations.

Edited January 5, 2020 by CodeMonkey

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, CodeMonkey said:

Anything is possible.  It is possible I become the Bills QB next season and win the SB.  Super crazy unlikely, but possible.  

The reasons to doubt it. at least a little, are his entire football career.

 

Hope springs eternal, but I am a logical person which dooms me to pay attention to my head more than my heart.

See you in a couple more years then after the inevitable failure and restart of the process. What will you do in the meantime ? Allen is going to be the Bills QB next year. Why bother watching ? Is it like looking at a car wreck and you just can’t help yourself? 

[thebandit27]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

Hey, all those almost turnovers by Josh Allen really did his team in. He’s a punchline ! 

I see that he had no response to the question about Watson hitting Neal between the numbers with nothing but end zone in front of him.

 

Again, the agendas some people have are insane. Call it straight up. Allen wasn’t good enough. And his group of playmakers didn’t bail him out any of the 3-4 times they had quality chances to.

1 minute ago, CodeMonkey said:

Boy they sure should have.  Thank goodness the Texans D couldn't take advantage,  I think the Bills D scores at least once in those situations.

Nope. Had 2 chances. Didn’t cash.

[Teddy KGB]

9 minutes ago, Billl said:

Not all zeroes are created equal.  Scoring zero points and punting is much better than fumbling or throwing a pick six.  This is pretty basic stuff.  You know this.  It’s embarrassing to pretend that Josh belonged on the same field as Watson.  Read any other team’s message board.  Allen is a punchline.  

need a tissue ?  who spends time on other message boards ? 

[Boatdrinks]

Just now, CodeMonkey said:

Boy they sure should have.  Thank goodness the Texans D couldn't take advantage,  I think the Bills D scores at least once in those situations.

The Bills D recovered a fumble but failed to return it for a TD when they absolutely could have. They gave up 19 points in a quarter and a half and failed to get Watson on the ground when he ( and most every other QB) was dead to rights. What makes you so confident in this , when it hasn’t happened all season ? 

[Billl]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

So not all point totals are equal? Awesome. Whose 19 points were worth more at the end of regulation? That’s a brutal take.

You’re right, dude.  All drives that end without scores are created equal.  It makes no difference whether you pin the other team at their one yard line with a punt or if you fumble the ball and set up the other team with a short field.  It was our privilege to watch Josh MFing Allen run around like a chicken with his head cut off for three and a half hours yesterday hitting defenders in the hands with passes, fumbling the ball without getting touched, lateraling the ball wildly to nobody, unintentionally backwards to knock the team out of FG range, etc.  THAT is what franchise QBs do.  Whatever deal Mahomes signs, add 5% and ink Josh the following year.

[CodeMonkey]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

See you in a couple more years then after the inevitable failure and restart of the process. What will you do in the meantime ? Allen is going to be the Bills QB next year. Why bother watching ? Is it like looking at a car wreck and you just can’t help yourself? 

He certainty is, the Bills are all-in on him for sure.  They have no choice, and besides, he is not a bad QB.  IMO he just isn't, and probably won't be, a great QB. But as I said above, hope springs eternal.,

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

Anything is possible.  It is possible I become the Bills QB next season and win the SB.  Super crazy unlikely, but possible.  

The reasons to doubt it. at least a little, are his entire football career.

 

Hope springs eternal, but I am a logical person which dooms me to pay attention to my head more than my heart.

 

Do you agree Josh improved significantly year 1 to year 2? If the answer is no then we will never agree. If the answer is yes then the question is why do you presume he can't take another leap? 

 

It is not certain he does. He could stall like Mariota and Winston did at this point. He could regress like Trubisky. Or he could keep growing. All scenarios are on the table. 

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, CodeMonkey said:

He certainty is, the Bills are all-in on him for sure.  They have no choice, and besides, he is not a bad QB.  IMO he just isn't, and probably won't be, a great QB. But as I said above, hope springs eternal.,

Cool. You can hope , I’ll just see what happens. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Can I change mine to Watson?

[thebandit27]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

You’re right, dude.  All drives that end without scores are created equal.  It makes no difference whether you pin the other team at their one yard line with a punt or if you fumble the ball and set up the other team with a short field.  It was our privilege to watch Josh MFing Allen run around like a chicken with his head cut off for three and a half hours yesterday hitting defenders in the hands with passes, fumbling the ball without getting touched, lateraling the ball wildly to nobody, unintentionally backwards to knock the team out of FG range, etc.  THAT is what franchise QBs do.  Whatever deal Mahomes signs, add 5% and ink Josh the following year.

Oh good. Another emotionally unhinged character that is unable to discuss Allen without having a tantrum.

 

Address the points of discussion or move on. 

[CodeMonkey]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Do you agree Josh improved significantly year 1 to year 2? If the answer is no then we will never agree. If the answer is yes then the question is why do you presume he can't take another leap? 

 

It is not certain he does. He could stall like Mariota and Winston did at this point. He could regress like Trubisky. Or he could keep growing. All scenarios are on the table. 

He certainly improved.  Far fewer stupid plays and will slide now are probably the two biggest.  I expect him to continue to improve, he certainly has the personality and work ethic.  But again, based on his lifes work in football, IMO greatness is a big long shot.

[Buddy Hix]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Do you agree Josh improved significantly year 1 to year 2? If the answer is no then we will never agree. If the answer is yes then the question is why do you presume he can't take another leap? 

 

It is not certain he does. He could stall like Mariota and Winston did at this point. He could regress like Trubisky. Or he could keep growing. All scenarios are on the table. 

Not many QBs take a step forward in year 3...

[GunnerBill]

Just now, CodeMonkey said:

He certainly improved.  Far fewer stupid plays and will slide now are probably the two biggest.  I expect him to continue to improve, he certainly has the personality and work ethic.  But again, based on his lifes work in football, IMO greatness is a big long shot.

 

Greatness is a long shot for anyone. I always thought Josh was a long shot to be a top end QB but had that potential. I like the direction he is headed. At some point he will plateau. I just don't see a reason to think we have yet reached that point. If we have then he is not our guy. I am just not sure we have..

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

2 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

He certainty is, the Bills are all-in on him for sure.  They have no choice, and besides, he is not a bad QB.  IMO he just isn't, and probably won't be, a great QB. But as I said above, hope springs eternal.,

But he will still get the 100+ million dollar contract, that contract alone will put this team at a huge disadvantage for what Allen brings to the table as a QB. Same with White when he gets his 88mil, people will not be loving him so much when he has 3 INT's at the end of the season and cannot shut down a high end WR. We will be like the Washington fans trying to figure out why we paid a zone CB like Revis.

3 minutes ago, CodeMonkey said:

He certainly improved.  Far fewer stupid plays and will slide now are probably the two biggest.  I expect him to continue to improve, he certainly has the personality and work ethic.  But again, based on his lifes work in football, IMO greatness is a big long shot.

He made enough ultra dumb plays in the last  3 Qtr's of that game last night to last a season. To be honest he played so bad that I'm convinced he had to be playing with a concussion, so so stupid.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Buddy Hix said:

Not many QBs take a step forward in year 3...

 

Matt Ryan. Matt Stafford. Cam Newton. 

 

Just off the top of my head.