The backup qb issue

[Ayjent]

12 hours ago, NJKBillsfan said:

He may throw some INT's but at least he's capable of throwing for a lot of yards and TD passes.

 

Allen is just so limited. He may have a couple really nice throws in a game but how productive is he for the duration of the game?  He usually struggles for the the vast majority of the game and doesn't start to play better until the 4th quarter. 

 

 

The Bills move the ball consistently with Allen, but not saying he doesn’t have room for improvement.  Allen is very close to being a very good starting QB if he can improve a little more with presnap reads and getting the ball out faster - which I think is coming.  The accuracy is always going to be a thing that rears it’s head in my opinion but he just needs to improve a little bit there.  I wasn’t a big fan of drafting him but he is far better than his stats suggest as a passer and is a far better QB than Barkley because of his pocket presence, his ability to extend drives and plays with his feet and his ability to make throws Barkley can’t.  He’s also a leader that the team gets behind and follows. 

 

If Allen were turning the ball over a lot still you might have a better argument about Barkley, but you can see Barkley’s limitations as a passer and lack of pocket presence and how that impacts the offense and his effectiveness.  For all of his yards how many points did the Bills put on the board.  

[thebandit27]

17 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Allen didn't do enough in this game to even make him comparable to Barkley.  He shouldn't even be compared imo considering they didnt even play with the same teammates. 

 

Barkley was terrible.  He seemed out of sync all game, but he was playing in a glorified preseason game against a 1st team. 

 

I expected more from him, but his poor performance in this situation is no where near enough to justify cutting him.   He played exceptional last season and all through preseason. 

 

 

 

No one said to cut him, and nobody mentioned Allen as a comparison that I saw.

 

The OP said that the team should be looking to upgrade, and I'm not sure why anyone would disagree.

15 hours ago, NJKBillsfan said:

I'm still confident Barkley is actually better than Josh Allen.

 

Barkley might throw INT's but he's capable of throwing for 300 + yards and throwing for multiple TD's in one game. He's also much more accurate than Allen who is constantly missing wide open receiver's. 

 

 

 

Gotta give this post a ?

 

Well done. Needed some humor after a long night.

[1ManRaid]

15 hours ago, NJKBillsfan said:

I'm still confident Barkley is actually better than Josh Allen.

 

Barkley might throw INT's but he's capable of throwing for 300 + yards and throwing for multiple TD's in one game. He's also much more accurate than Allen who is constantly missing wide open receiver's. 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, NJKBillsfan said:

He may throw some INT's but at least he's capable of throwing for a lot of yards and TD passes.

 

Allen is just so limited. He may have a couple really nice throws in a game but how productive is he for the duration of the game?  He usually struggles for the the vast majority of the game and doesn't start to play better until the 4th quarter. 

 

 

We found the 300 yard obsesser!

 

Top 5 passing QBs this year all missed the playoffs.  Easy to rack up yards playing from behind and being forced into "gunslinging".  They're trying to actually teach Allen to be a better overall QB for the long haul.

 

I actually want to keep Barkley as backup but don't be ridiculous. 

[Chandler#81]

Dalton. Dump Barkley.

[Victory Formation]

Dalton or Mariota, if not draft one RDs 5-7.

[Motorin']

On 12/30/2019 at 6:21 PM, NJKBillsfan said:

I think still Barkley is significantly better than Allen. Fans wanna attack Barkley for his "arm strength" but what is so great about Allen? He makes maybe 2-3 really nice throws per game but he plays like crap for the rest of the game. Barkley doesn't have the strongest arm in the world but at least with him you're getting a much more accurate QB and someone who is also a lot better at reading defense's and knowing how to find the open receiver. 

 

Barkley was deadly accurate on that throw to James Burgess. Hit him right in the #'s... Barkley had as many picks this game as Allen had in his last 11 games. Also, where do you get that Allen throws for 130-150 yards per game? Why do you think you get to just make up stats? 

[CardinalScotts]

On 12/30/2019 at 4:42 PM, Beach said:

i dont see him as an issue.  sure he played bad, but he played with all back ups.  

in the pouring rain after not throwing a pass for how many weeks? very few all year also did Josh get starters reps ? he did start

if Barkley has to go in he'll be fine

[GreggTX]

I'd like to see the Bills draft a QB in the middle rounds and develop him behind Allen. Our offense sucked against the Jets.

[Spiderweb]

On 12/30/2019 at 5:42 PM, Beach said:

i dont see him as an issue.  sure he played bad, but he played with all back ups.  

In torrential rain.....

[Matt_In_NH]

Barkley played really well at NYJ last year, the game this year was rough but we also have to realize, he had no talent to play with.  Singletrary, Dawkins, Brown, Beasley, Knox and maybe others were all held out as precautions.  I think they pulled Dawkins early....

[Moulds 808080]

He was playing with 2nd and third stringers.

[BillsfanAZ]

Barkley is a decent back up for the Bills. Like everyone else mentioned about the weather, playing without a lot of starters, and probably a pretty plain offense. Barkely is veteran and knows his role. He is supportive and isnt challenging for the starting gig. Most young QB's are going to want to get their chance to start. In the Bills case the back up QB should be a veteran that has played before but not starting caliber. 

[TheFunPolice]

I say bring Andy Dalton home... Perfect backup here.

 

Either way, if you get to the backup QB your season is pretty much over unless it becomes a changing of the guard moment like in Tennessee. 

[Pokebball]

On 12/30/2019 at 3:42 PM, Beach said:

i dont see him as an issue.  sure he played bad, but he played with all back ups.  

It's funny how easy it is for us to always ignore the play of the other 10 guys on offense.  We do it all of the time.

[dave mcbride]

19 hours ago, CardinalScotts said:

in the pouring rain after not throwing a pass for how many weeks? very few all year also did Josh get starters reps ? he did start

if Barkley has to go in he'll be fine

In 14 games he has 10 TDs and 21 INTs. That is ... terrible. 

 

For comparison's sake, Case Keenum's TD/INT ratio is 75/47. The point is, there are going to be upgrades out there that are available. 

[dave mcbride]

On 12/31/2019 at 4:35 PM, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

How many teams in the league aren't doomed if their backup is forced to play?   The only exceptions tend to be teams that have a questionable starter to begin with so a good backup signs with that team as he knows he has a good chance to start, i.e. Fitz, and Tannerhill.

 

As was also mentioned, many of the better options aren't going to sign with a team where they know they will only be the backup  and never start other than due to injury, i.e. Dauton,

 

Drafting a rookie would put you in a worse spot

 

Couple that with many starters being out, don't think we're any worse than most teams.

That raises a good question. Who is Dalton capable of starting for at this point? Tampa Bay? Carolina? The Chargers are not going to go for a retread like him. Who beyond that? Ironically, another good fit for him may well be Pittsburgh given the uncertainty surrounding Roethlisberger. But that is highly unlikely to happen. 

 

Anyway, it's not inconceivable that the Bills have a shot at him. He still can play, but his career is definitely on the down swing. Late-career Boomer Esiason - basically a super sub - comes immediately to mind.   

Edited January 2, 2020 by dave mcbride

[Manther]

On 12/30/2019 at 7:15 PM, dave mcbride said:

Did you watch his throws outside the hashes? He can’t make them; he looked like Peterman without the height. (I say this as a person who likes Barkley.) I realize that by definition backup qbs are gonna be flawed, but lest we forget, Kyle Orton was a backup who could play and certainly make all of the throws. 

Totally, totally agree.

[Punching Bag]

On 12/30/2019 at 6:02 PM, Wayne Cubed said:

Not for nothing but you are judging the guy when the Bills 2 starting WRs were out, one of starting TEs, the starting RB and half the OL. I’m not a Barkley fan by any stretch and the Bills could do better there but don’t you think you are weighting yesterday’s performance a tad too much?

 

With that many players not playing, Josh would’ve struggled... and did in his 2 series.

 

Yes but Josh struggles a lot in first quarter.  Now if they put him in 4th quarter when defense was tired .....

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

That raises a good question. Who is Dalton capable of starting for at this point? Tampa Bay? Carolina? The Chargers are not going to go for a retread like him. Who beyond that? Ironically, another good fit for him may well be Pittsburgh given the uncertainty surrounding Roethlisberger. But that is highly unlikely to happen. 

 

Anyway, it's not inconceivable that the Bills have a shot at him. He still can play, but his career is definitely on the down swing. Late-career Boomer Esiason - basically a super sub - comes immediately to mind.   

 

I'd think a team like San Diego, Carolina, would take a chance on a guy like him assuming they are also drafting a rookie, (maybe not early 1st round) and let them compete, (or whatever team signs Josh Rosen) probably even let Dalton start and as the season goes on, if he falters, then turn to the rookie. 

 

Going to a team like Buffalo he knows he's not going to have a chance to start barring injury.  But if there really is no market for him with a team where he's given a shot to start, then could see him coming to a place like Buffalo strictly as the backup.

[Ayjent]

13 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

I'd think a team like San Diego, Carolina, would take a chance on a guy like him assuming they are also drafting a rookie, (maybe not early 1st round) and let them compete, (or whatever team signs Josh Rosen) probably even let Dalton start and as the season goes on, if he falters, then turn to the rookie. 

 

Going to a team like Buffalo he knows he's not going to have a chance to start barring injury.  But if there really is no market for him with a team where he's given a shot to start, then could see him coming to a place like Buffalo strictly as the backup.

San Diego will likely draft a guy and keep Tyrod if they move on from Rivers. 

 

Carolina hasn't moved on from Cam...yet, but I don't see that as a spot for Dalton with a new staff coming in and likely looking to get their guy at the position. 

 

Washington is a possible spot for Dalton, but would you want to play for that franchise where Snyder hand-picked Haskins and Rivera was likely asked if he had a good plan for Haskins as part of the interview process. 

 

Tampa Bay ain't gonna happen - I think that they may look to keep Jameis with some competition for the spot (honestly this could be a landing spot for Newton if not Carolina, but Arians wants to throw deep and they most likely want someone who will protect the ball better than Winston - not exactly Dalton's strong suit when it matters most).

 

Rivers would be an interesting back up and likely a good mentor for Josh.  However, I think he's more likely to retire a Charger than finish his career somewhere else.  I think Dalton is a possibility, but not very likely.  Winston would be another interesting QB, but doesn't fit the Process IMO - his play on the field and his off the field reputation would seem to me that he wouldn't even be considered.  I think we could all get behind Fitz Bills version 2.0.  Ultimately, I think the Bills will draft a guy mid to late rounds to see if they can find a capable backup that is smart with natural ability and a high ceiling.  Someone like Jordan Love, Utah State wouldn't be a bad pick.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

4 hours ago, Ayjent said:

San Diego will likely draft a guy and keep Tyrod if they move on from Rivers. 

 

Carolina hasn't moved on from Cam...yet, but I don't see that as a spot for Dalton with a new staff coming in and likely looking to get their guy at the position. 

 

Washington is a possible spot for Dalton, but would you want to play for that franchise where Snyder hand-picked Haskins and Rivera was likely asked if he had a good plan for Haskins as part of the interview process. 

 

Tampa Bay ain't gonna happen - I think that they may look to keep Jameis with some competition for the spot (honestly this could be a landing spot for Newton if not Carolina, but Arians wants to throw deep and they most likely want someone who will protect the ball better than Winston - not exactly Dalton's strong suit when it matters most).

 

Rivers would be an interesting back up and likely a good mentor for Josh.  However, I think he's more likely to retire a Charger than finish his career somewhere else.  I think Dalton is a possibility, but not very likely.  Winston would be another interesting QB, but doesn't fit the Process IMO - his play on the field and his off the field reputation would seem to me that he wouldn't even be considered.  I think we could all get behind Fitz Bills version 2.0.  Ultimately, I think the Bills will draft a guy mid to late rounds to see if they can find a capable backup that is smart with natural ability and a high ceiling.  Someone like Jordan Love, Utah State wouldn't be a bad pick.

 

It's fine to want ot draft a replacement for Rivers, but is there someone out there good enough to be the starter this coming season?  Chargers were the pick of many this past year to be in the playoffs and maybe a deep run and wasn't 100% because of Rivers so there must still be a fair amount of talent there.  To go from there to one season later starting a rookie or TT, would be somewhat surprising so could see them either re-signing Rivers to maybe a 2 year deal or looking for a vet, but maybe in either case drafting a rookie but have someone this year more seasoned to start.

 

To me the difference between Rivers vs Winston and Daulton is Rivers has played long enough that he's not going to go some place that he's not pretty much guaranteed to start.  Likely Winston and Daulton would say the same, however the difference IMO is that River/Manning have played long enough to easily retire if not given that chance.  Where as Winston and Daulton will hold out for the starting gig, but when/if reality sets in that they aren't getting one, then could see them sign someplace where they know their spot is to be the backup.  But also agree that Winston's off field image isn't likely to ever get an offer from the Bills.

 

I'd be worried if the Bills backup is a rookie as Allen isn't far enough up the learning curve yet to be relying on a rookie as a sounding board.  Unless it's like a 6th rounder who you cut and move to the PS, but likely anything drafted much higher, may get snatched up if any potential.  In that case the rookie is the #3 QB, but still want/need a vet backup.

[dave mcbride]

@thebandit27, @C.Biscuit97, @BADOLBILZ, @eball -- reupping this after watching the Eagles game yesterday. That game was eminently winnable for the Eagles if they had any sort of dynamism at the backup qb position. I fully believe Foles would have won that game for them. Settling on a newly hired 40-year old high school football coach as your backup really bit the Eagles in the end. Point is, the Bills need to fully explore upgrading the position. 

[CBennett]

Simply put and I think we all now know this..they need a better backup.

[BADOLBILZ]

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

@thebandit27, @C.Biscuit97, @BADOLBILZ, @eball -- reupping this after watching the Eagles game yesterday. That game was eminently winnable for the Eagles if they had any sort of dynamism at the backup qb position. I fully believe Foles would have won that game for them. Settling on a newly hired 40-year old high school football coach as your backup really bit the Eagles in the end. Point is, the Bills need to fully explore upgrading the position. 

 

 

Yeah Barkley isn't a good backup QB option.   Maybe 10 years ago a guy that limited would be a decent backup but the overall depth at QB around the league is greater now.   You need and have access to better options.

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah Barkley isn't a good backup QB option.   Maybe 10 years ago a guy that limited would be a decent backup but the overall depth at QB around the league is greater now.   You need and have access to better options.

I want my backup to have some mobility. Barkley has none.

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I want my backup to have some mobility. Barkley has none.

And "make all the throws." Barkley can't. The double whammy of immobility and rag arm is a killer. He can make a play here and there because he is smart and usually accurate. But he is not a legit backup in this league IMO and never will be because of the physical limitations.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

On 12/30/2019 at 5:42 PM, whatdrought said:

Mariota is an intriguing one to me, but he’ll likely end up fighting for a job somewhere, or at least going somewhere with the door open.

 

I think his days as a starter ended when tannehill came out to the same offense and basically lit it up.  He'd be a good fit here, similar athleticism to allen.  He possesses a lot of the skill sets that tyrod had - Takes care of the ball, but also gets sacked a lot.  Pretty accurate on certain routes, but struggles throwing people open/jump balls.  Not particularly accurate on deep balls either.  

 

I know we extended barkley but even if we carried him all the way through camp the most he would cost is about 500k against the cap if they released him.  Its a position that needs upgrading.

 

I'd also want to take a look at Dalton (should he get cut).  

 

One of Dalton, Bridgewater, Mariota should end up with the chargers - but i wonder too if they move up to draft Tua.  Rivers Brady Brees is also a strange conundrum - but i see 2 out of 3 just going right back.  Rivers either retires or plays with the chargers imo. Colts situation is also interesting...

 

There won't be as many changes i think this year because guys like foles and flacco really can't be moved - and that kind of limits what those teams do at QB.