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Lest anyone still thinks Daboll is reading coverages for Josh...


eball

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...here's a snippet from a conversation Josh and Jim Kelly had with Vic Carucci and Adam Begnini that is supposedly airing soon:

 

One of the biggest lessons Kelly said Allen has needed to learn is to take charge on the field, especially when it comes to communicating with offensive coordinator Brian Daboll. Unlike Kelly, who called his own plays when the Bills made the no-huddle attack their offensive foundation, Allen, as with most NFL QBs, has plays dispatched to him via a headset in his helmet.

 

"(You tell Daboll), 'These are plays I like, these are plays I don't like, and if it ever comes a point in the game where the play's coming in late, call your own play!' " Kelly said.

 

"Daboll gives me the freedom to do that," Allen said. "There were a couple times this Sunday I did it and it worked to our advantage."

 

"Wow! You're listening now," Kelly chimed in. "All right!"

 

"Third down, one of our first third downs, they were trying to sub out, and I called a play, and we got 'em for 12 men on the field and got a first down," Allen said. "There were a couple other ones."

 

"He's listening to Uncle Jim," Kelly said with a laugh.

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We have to patient with the kid. 

 

Being an NFL QB is about the hardest thing to do in professional sports.

 

He is coming along though.

 

Maybe the light has come on for him and he now is ready to jump up into the elite, but we shouldn't be all over him if he doesn't.

 

Remember. he has only one reliable weapon (which is a step up from his rookie year), a good OL now (another step up from his rookie year), and there is STILL a bit a transition with NINE new starters on offense.

 

Patience people, patience.

 

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2 minutes ago, BillnutinHouston said:

I would view calling plays and reading coverages as two different things.

 

Technically, yes, but I'm referring to the wild internet speculation last week that Daboll's move to the skybox was an indication he's reading the defense for Josh in his helmet before the snap.  The Bills' use of a hurry-up attack and comments like these from Josh tell me that's not happening.

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14 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Technically, yes, but I'm referring to the wild internet speculation last week that Daboll's move to the skybox was an indication he's reading the defense for Josh in his helmet before the snap.  The Bills' use of a hurry-up attack and comments like these from Josh tell me that's not happening.

 

I interpreted Daboll's comments as indicating it might happen if the Bills were coming to the line and he saw something Josh seemed to be missing, but that it wasn't something he wanted to do on a routine basis: "HE's got to play"

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Cool. I think Josh is learning how to read defenses better pre snap. It looked like he was making several audibles last game.

Daboll moving to the box was also something that might help Josh feel more comfortable. Brian seemed to lose his cool a few times early in the season with Josh after mistakes. The space and a brief  cooling off moment, might be a benefit for both.

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24 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Technically, yes, but I'm referring to the wild internet speculation last week that Daboll's move to the skybox was an indication he's reading the defense for Josh in his helmet before the snap.  The Bills' use of a hurry-up attack and comments like these from Josh tell me that's not happening.

He moved up cause moving down didn't work so good.  Don't know who the freedom benefited more, Allen or Daboll and really don't care, it worked.  

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17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I interpreted Daboll's comments as indicating it might happen if the Bills were coming to the line and he saw something Josh seemed to be missing, but that it wasn't something he wanted to do on a routine basis: "HE's got to play"

 

Perhaps, but I think it's mostly so Daboll gets a birds-eye view and can relay what he's seeing to Josh between series and during timeouts.

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3 hours ago, eball said:

 

Technically, yes, but I'm referring to the wild internet speculation last week that Daboll's move to the skybox was an indication he's reading the defense for Josh in his helmet before the snap.  The Bills' use of a hurry-up attack and comments like these from Josh tell me that's not happening.

 

Yes and pre snap formations on defense can change many times in the final 20 seconds after the helmet audio is shut off.  

What they should really do is put the OC in one of those blue tents on the sidelines with a few spotters next to him in front of a few big screen TV's with an all-22 view of the field.  Same view as being up in the booth but he can walk out at anytime or have Josh come in.   

During time outs ideally you want your OC to be standing next to the HC and QB.

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3 hours ago, eball said:

 

Technically, yes, but I'm referring to the wild internet speculation last week that Daboll's move to the skybox was an indication he's reading the defense for Josh in his helmet before the snap.  The Bills' use of a hurry-up attack and comments like these from Josh tell me that's not happening.

 

 

How? A hurryup wouldn't in the slightest mean Daboll isn't telling him what coverages are showing. Can't see anything in that snippet you provided that indicates it's not happening a lot.

 

 

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I always thought the notion of Daboll reading defenses for Josh Allen is patently ridiculous.  There isn't enough time on the play clock to give Allen the play, interpret the defense for him and let Allen call out the cadence for the offense.

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Maybe it's just me and growing up with JK as my QB, but I would rather have the QB call the plays than an OC. The OC is a good coach to go to in between series to talk about what they are both seeing and thinking about how to attack the D etc.

 

Edit: It is just a terrible crutch for QBs IMO. With the Rams, McVay is basically playing Madden with Goff as his QB

 

Edited by Reed83HOF
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5 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Maybe it's just me and growing up with JK as my QB, but I would rather have the QB call the plays than an OC. The OC is a good coach to go to in between series to talk about what they are both seeing and thinking about how to attack the D etc.

 

Edit: It is just a terrible crutch for QBs IMO. With the Rams, McVay is basically playing Madden with Goff as his QB

 

 

How much does that happen in the NFL these days? I would be fine with Allen having some autonomy and I think we’ve seen he does good things when changing stuff at the lines, but how much of the “playcalling” is done by QB’s? Not flaming, just curious myself. 

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5 hours ago, njbuff said:

We have to patient with the kid. 

 

Being an NFL QB is about the hardest thing to do in professional sports.

 

He is coming along though.

 

Maybe the light has come on for him and he now is ready to jump up into the elite, but we shouldn't be all over him if he doesn't.

 

Remember. he has only one reliable weapon (which is a step up from his rookie year), a good OL now (another step up from his rookie year), and there is STILL a bit a transition with NINE new starters on offense.

 

Patience people, patience.

 

We really need to pin that to the top of the forum board - at least until next season - simple title, "KEEP THIS ALL IN CONTEXT: [...]"

 

Regardless of schedule, sophomore QB showing marked progress and improvement in an offense returning three starters (Foster the fourth), which now only has two starters (Foster now third) from last year. Promising rookie RB. Brown and Beasley are great weapons, but first year in any offense is still a considerable adjustment for even the most veteran of starters. Expectations solidly set at 6-10, and having them happily exceeded every week (except for maybe the Browns game...still dirty)

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1 minute ago, whatdrought said:

 

How much does that happen in the NFL these days? I would be fine with Allen having some autonomy and I think we’ve seen he does good things when changing stuff at the lines, but how much of the “playcalling” is done by QB’s? Not flaming, just curious myself. 

Not many and I'm not sure how much Rodgers is doing it this year as opposed to the past. Obviously the 2 big names were JK and Peyton. 

 

The way I look at it is, the QB has to basically know where every player is going to be, how WR routes are going to be adjusted based on the D coverage, he adjusts the blocking scheme, can audible to a run from a pass etc. - he might as well have the autonomy to call his own plays honestly at that point. It feels to me that the players in the game have a better feel for the flow of the game and that makes it easier. The OC should have his time spent looking for the tells and what to take advantage of (the higher level perspective).

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5 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Not many and I'm not sure how much Rodgers is doing it this year as opposed to the past. Obviously the 2 big names were JK and Peyton. 

 

The way I look at it is, the QB has to basically know where every player is going to be, how WR routes are going to be adjusted based on the D coverage, he adjusts the blocking scheme, can audible to a run from a pass etc. - he might as well have the autonomy to call his own plays honestly at that point. It feels to me that the players in the game have a better feel for the flow of the game and that makes it easier. The OC should have his time spent looking for the tells and what to take advantage of (the higher level perspective).

 

I think in a controlled way this makes sense... I.e, he’s got 3 or 5 plays set up and then situationally can call what looks right. I think this is what they do some of during the tempo, as we see Allen make more adjustments. Short of a manning brain, it’s hard to have an entire play sheet in your head at any given time.

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8 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

I think in a controlled way this makes sense... I.e, he’s got 3 or 5 plays set up and then situationally can call what looks right. I think this is what they do some of during the tempo, as we see Allen make more adjustments. Short of a manning brain, it’s hard to have an entire play sheet in your head at any given time.

The game is a bit different now from back then, but being able to run multiple plays out of 1 formation puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the D and keeps them off balance. Reich does a great job at this in Indy & I believe Shanny jr does the same.

 

Not to turn this into this conversation, but yeah I wanted Frank here (but didn't want to have all of the nostalgia crap and pop and circumstance that went with it - especially if it didn't work out); he is a great offensive brain and his help with JK in their playing days was huge. Thought he would be a great person to groom a young QB. 

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1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

The game is a bit different now from back then, but being able to run multiple plays out of 1 formation puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the D and keeps them off balance. Reich does a great job at this in Indy & I believe Shanny jr does the same.

 

Not to turn this into this conversation, but yeah I wanted Frank here (but didn't want to have all of the nostalgia crap and pop and circumstance that went with it - especially if it didn't work out); he is a great offensive brain and his help with JK in their playing days was huge. Thought he would be a great person to groom a young QB. 

 

I agree regarding running multiple plays and play types out of the same look. That’s a major concern for me for our offense right now- we seem to be transparent. Less so this week, or so it seemed, but we need to be more duplicative with what we do out of what formation.

 

I do like Reich. Wouldn’t have minded having him. 

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Can't recall this being posted elsewhere, but Cover1's take on the development here provides interesting context to this conversation:

 

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-week-11-offensive-staff-gave-josh-allen-the-answers-to-the-test/

 

It's worth the read in full, but it seems it still relates to what McVay has been doing, but not necessarily via the headset chatter. To quote the article's concluding summary:

Quote

While this game was not against a premier defense, I think the staff has found a recipe for success: limited personnel groupings, but specifically, heavy use of 11 personnel with Brown, Beasley, McKenzie, Knox, and Singletary. This grouping puts speed on the field to stress man or zone defenses, while still having McKenzie on the field to run jet sweeps and swing screens. Using that grouping in the trips set I outlined earlier also makes it easier to detect how the defense is going to defend the plays called, which of course makes in-game adjustments that much easier for the staff and for Allen, as described by Brown on the 40-yard touchdown. Using one primary group can also allow the offense to use tempo at any given moment, which forces the defense to have checks and audibles in place. If they don’t, and the opponent plays vanilla coverage like the Dolphins did, Allen can then slice and dice the defense. The other key ingredient was RPOs. These quick-read types of plays were easy completions for Allen, and the answers he needed to get the Bills their seventh win.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I interpreted Daboll's comments as indicating it might happen if the Bills were coming to the line and he saw something Josh seemed to be missing, but that it wasn't something he wanted to do on a routine basis: "HE's got to play"

exactamundo Hap

2 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

By the QB.

Flag thrown

 12 men on the field !

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8 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

Maybe it's just me and growing up with JK as my QB, but I would rather have the QB call the plays than an OC. The OC is a good coach to go to in between series to talk about what they are both seeing and thinking about how to attack the D etc.

 

Edit: It is just a terrible crutch for QBs IMO. With the Rams, McVay is basically playing Madden with Goff as his QB

 

While I enjoyed the KGun, they only used like 15 base plays. Defenses are much more athletic now and I think that package can work for short durations but not for full seasons. What made it work is they had 4 hall of fame skill players on the field at one time and then throw in lighting fast Beebe and a great change of pace backup RB in Kenny D. Josh has zero potential hall of famers in his lineup ! 

Edited by Locomark
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