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JD333

Allen vs Murray

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3 hours ago, Chris from Rochester said:

I saw another "article" yesterday saying Josh Allen is ranked 32nd out of all the qbs this year. I wonder sometimes if people are still upset at him for his controversial tweets he mad when he was like 15 or whatever and desperately want him to fail.  It's obnoxious all the hate he gets

I think it has more to do with their pre-draft analysis of Allen. 

 

Article after article was written saying that he would never be a good NFL QB. That nobody with his college stats has ever made it in the NFL and if he did make it he would be the biggest statistical outlier of all times (or something along those lines, I can’t remember exactly). 

 

Some said he’d be a great test for old school scouting vs. new school analytics (etc). 

 

So they aren’t going down without a fight (and to be fair, Allen still has plenty to prove)

 

 

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1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

"Allen’s stats were opposite Murray’s, but so were some other things. He was in an advantageous position all game, with many short-yardage down situations, a short field, and a strong run game."

 

You luddites, don't you know that 8 rushes for 9 yards is a "strong Run game"?

 

 

 

Someone posted this as a response, I hadn't seen it yet- good breakdown- Also, this response: 

 

 

 

I now also realize that I didn't notice how Allen froze the safety in waiting for Beasley to get open.  If he stares down Beasley (like he would have last year) the safety would have cheated to the slot and Allen wouldn't have a clear passing lane.

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4 hours ago, JD333 said:

Kyler Murray Is Better Than He Looks This Preseason — and Josh Allen Is Worse

Numbers don’t tell the whole story. Murray is much closer to being a successful NFL quarterback than Allen.


KYLER MURRAY AND JOSH ALLEN ARE TWO OF THE MORE INTRIGUING YOUNG NFL QUARTERBACKS. Murray is a rookie, the number one pick who was handed the reins to the Arizona Cardinals offense. Allen surprised pundits by going seventh last year, then surprised them again by looking better than expected down the stretch for the Buffalo Bills.

 

https://medium.com/sportsraid/kyler-murray-better-than-josh-allen-nfl-preseason-analysis-arizona-cardinals-buffalo-bills-quarterback-36f18ad3c990

 

Let me guess....Murray doesnt have anyone to throw to now and Allen does.....right?   I havent read it

 

Guess wht....tough *****......Darnold had ppl to throw to last year and nobody said *****

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The fact that the writer was surprised Allen was picked 7th shows how little he knows.  Almost every mock draft had Allen higher.  The only surprise was that he lasted to 7th.  

 

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4 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

I am not even going to click on that link and give the author or the website any validation. The entire premise is ridiculous. This appears to be someone who predicted Josh Allen would be a bust and he is desperate to be right.

 

OP needs to put in his post not to actually click.  I read the story and it is just as bad as you imagine.  Every thing that was bad for Murray happened to him not because of him and everything good that happened for Allen was in spite of him not because of him.  Clear clickbait garbage.  I'm mad at myself for clicking on the link.  At least I had my adblock on :lol:

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4 hours ago, Bray Wyatt said:

That article essentially asks you to not believe what you saw and just believe what he tells you with nothing to back it up. Awful

 

So just like CNN!

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I think I see the authors point.

 

Allen is worse than he looked. Because He looked like Tom Brady firing darts, moving chains, hitting the short open stuff perfectly on time and in rhythm over the middle and outside. But He’s not shown he’s a sure fire first ballot hall of famer just yet. 

 

And Kyler looked inept, over his head and like he has no business being on an nfl feild ever, but he might be a solid back up someday. So he almost has to be better than he looked.

 

the only part that’s a miss is contrasting the two. I’m not sure that part added up.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, TH3 said:

Lesson # whatever: Don’t be such an overbearing knowitall ass to posters ....sheesh

 

Lesson # 3  don't talk shite until you have a clue.   

 

I was trying to help the kid out douche 

 

based on his reply to me he understood my meaning 

Edited by ShadyBillsFan

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Posted (edited)

:lol: Yeah, so this guy looks credible with his 5,200 followers. In other words, 0 actual f***s are given about what this dork has to say. :thumbsup:

Edited by H2o

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Posted (edited)

I got into a YouTube argument ( yes I have those ) with this guy over the same things that this guy says in this article and it’s SO ridiculous.  Last year Allen completion was at 52% in large part because of his shots downfield and his inaccuracy in the short game and people said he couldn’t hit the side of a barn.
 

Now Allen comes back this year after working on reading defenses better and taking the short stuff more and now after 2 preseason games his completion percentage is at 68 percent so far and now people ( his haters) is saying it’s only because of dink and dunk. Never mind he is throwing with more anticipation and hitting the medium areas of the field better.

 

I’m not saying this offense is going to be breaking records but after watching these 2 preseason games especially the 2nd on I swear Beasley was looking like a mini Edelman out there. 

Edited by Protocal69

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I actually think Rosen will have  the better career. I strongly felt Arizona should have traded down. Murray will be in the CFL in 4 years.

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Why even compare Allen to Murray?  One is a rookie and the other is a 2nd year guy.  Wouldn't it be more appropriate to compare Murray to a fellow 2019 draftee like the Giant's David Jones?  I mean Jones has had two solid exhibition games and Murray has had a good & bad game.

 

I've never seen anything like the hatred spewed at Allen.  I get that the analytics guys don't like his "accuracy" numbers but why do so many of these writers seem to make it personal?  This is more then writers thinking Allen will be a bust.  This comes across as sports writers taking personal offense at the idea that Allen might actually be good.  It's just plain weird.

 

It seems like there's an agenda here and I don't get it.  Someone needs to tell these guys that it's possible a bunch of these young QB's are going to shine in the NFL over the next decade.  This is NOT a zero sum game.  Anyone who has watched football knows this. 

 

 

 

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the one thing that i see as interesting out of all of this is the comment about allen doing easier stuff out of shotgun.

 

for the longest time the rule in the NFL is you need to play under center to be a real QB and have success, but more and more (pats especially) you see good offenses just opt for easy mode; spacing out the D, simple pre snap reads, shotgun looks, quick passes, basically playing advantage all the time.

 

dabo has some pats roots, so it makes sense he likes this idea of O, but it is kinda shocking that more teams don't make the game easier for their players like the pats always seem to do.

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14 minutes ago, colin said:

the one thing that i see as interesting out of all of this is the comment about allen doing easier stuff out of shotgun.

 

for the longest time the rule in the NFL is you need to play under center to be a real QB and have success, but more and more (pats especially) you see good offenses just opt for easy mode; spacing out the D, simple pre snap reads, shotgun looks, quick passes, basically playing advantage all the time.

 

dabo has some pats roots, so it makes sense he likes this idea of O, but it is kinda shocking that more teams don't make the game easier for their players like the pats always seem to do.

We are literally running the Pats offense (Erhardt- Perkins) concepts

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44 minutes ago, Sunshower said:

I actually think Rosen will have  the better career. I strongly felt Arizona should have traded down. Murray will be in the CFL in 4 years.

 

I don't know if Rosen will have the better career but I definitely think they gave up on him way too early. It would have been fine if there was a Luck type prospect but Murrary isn't even close to that and he barely committed to football at the last minute. Arizona is the most mismanaged team in the league. There are 4 teams I feel have zero chance of playoffs this year - Cardinals, Bengals, Dolphins, and Redskins.

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33 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I've never seen anything like the hatred spewed at Allen.  I get that the analytics guys don't like his "accuracy" numbers but why do so many of these writers seem to make it personal?  This is more then writers thinking Allen will be a bust.  This comes across as sports writers taking personal offense at the idea that Allen might actually be good.  It's just plain weird.

 

Honestly the online analytics community is extremely smug. I follow a lot of them and they can have good points but they get stuck in their opinions forever. They are convinced that they know better than the NFL. On one hand I get it, NFL teams do make incredibly dumb decisions all the time. But no one really knows what QBs will turn out good. I don't know anyone that thought Daniel Jones was a good pick but so far he's looking good, albeit against backups in preseason games but still. I've come around to the thinking that what an NFL team can learn about the person they're drafting is a lot more valuable than any set of statistics. Can analytics factor in Allen's work ethic? His drive? His football intelligence? His relative lack of experience? Can analytics predict how a QB will develop?

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22 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know if Rosen will have the better career but I definitely think they gave up on him way too early. It would have been fine if there was a Luck type prospect but Murrary isn't even close to that and he barely committed to football at the last minute. Arizona is the most mismanaged team in the league. There are 4 teams I feel have zero chance of playoffs this year - Cardinals, Bengals, Dolphins, and Redskins.

No doubt. Murray was far far from a sure thing. Could have traded #1 for a boat load of draft picks and rebuilt the entire roster. No faith in Arizona’s FO or coaching staff neither, bad situation for Murray to be in and it doesn’t help that the guy is the size of an Oompa Loompa.

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2 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

Lesson # 3  don't talk shite until you have a clue.   

 

I was trying to help the kid out douche 

 

based on his reply to me he understood my meaning 

 

umm .....pretty sure no one around here needs  "help" from a key board forum cop whose claim to authority is 25,000 posts.....bravo!

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Said it before.  The Internet has changed the way people debate, and not necessarily in a good way.  Everyone thinks they are an expert at everything.  And very few are willing to admit when they are wrong about something.  Most people will double-down, and refuse to budge regardless of the evidence.

 

 

Josh Allen has always been a PERFECT example of how the general public (a.k.a. the fans) differs from the NFL professionals,  when it comes to scouting a college prospect.

 

Fans usually HATE when their teams draft players based on physical potential.  They want their GM to take the guys who put up the big stats and had lots of college success.  They want guys like Baker Mayfield, Johnny Manziel and Tim Tebow.  But NFL scouts are paid to see past the NCAA results, and try to forecast how good a guy CAN be.  By most accounts, Allen was absolutely loved by most NFL scouts.  He had all of the physical, athletic and mental traits desired in an NFL quarterback.  The only reason he lasted as long as he did, was because 2018 was an exceptionally strong QB draft.  

 

Up until the flood of Draft Websites and YouTube channels, the average fan could scream how STUPID his team was for not drafting Manziel.... but never had to own up to it when that guy turned out to be a bust.  Now all of the Internet "experts" are learning how difficult scouting really is, and they can't hide all of their old opinions.  But instead of admitting "Maybe the Bills actually did draft the right Josh"... they choose to criticize EVERY inaccurate pass, and downplay any success Allen has.  It's actually kinda sad and pathetic.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Protocal69 said:

We are literally running the Pats offense (Erhardt- Perkins) concepts

 

 

exactly, makes me wonder how so few teams have figured it out.

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