Great Q and A with Ken Dorsey (Athletic Subscription Required)

[Juice_32]

https://theathletic.com/1004274/2019/05/31/qa-with-ken-dorsey-the-bills-quarterbacks-coach-on-his-philosophy-and-what-he-sees-in-josh-allen/

 

There are some really good questions in here. I have posted a few (hopefully not too many) below that relate to Allen. He also discusses his time in the NFL and college. I think the Dorsey hire is going to be huge for Allen's development. 

 

What percentage of the job is being a psychologist versus working on mechanics?

I think psychology is very important. It’s such a mental game, you know? Because of the ups and downs over the course of a game, the course of a season, there’s good, there’s bad, there’s things you can improve on. We try to focus on not trying to get too high or too low. We’re staying steady. That calming force throughout a practice, throughout a game, throughout a year is important not only for ourselves, but for the team.

 

When you considered taking the Bills job, what were initial thoughts on Josh Allen?

I didn’t do a lot of scouting on that quarterback class in terms of hard film study. I knew the top guys. I knew Josh had a very strong arm, good size, things like that. But I didn’t realize how mobile he was, as well. That outside perception looking in, there are obvious traits, but getting to know him, you realize there is so much more to him than just those physical traits, which is really exciting.

 

What are some examples?

I love a quarterback who hates losing at anything. Guys like that always give you a chance. That inner drive continually pushes them to improve and to win football games. I love the competitiveness he has. I love the intelligence that he has. He’s a smart person and a smart football player. He can handle things. Then he can also learn from what’s been happening — good, bad or indifferent — and he can learn quickly. His ability to talk and relate to anybody on the team is huge. There are a lot of things, that “it factor” stuff people look for.

 

If you were talking not to a reporter or a fan but another veteran quarterback who never has seen him play, how would you describe Josh’s arm strength?

He can make any throw on the field. Some guys, no matter what, just have to anticipate to make sure they beat the corner. Josh is the type of guy where, if he’s a hair late in his progressions, he can make up for it with arm strength. He can make far-hash throws, deep out routes, deep go routes, whatever it is. Certain guys, if you’re on the far hash, aren’t going to be able to make those throws. Josh can make any throw and get it there with velocity. He can do the same thing on the move, too, the same as if he’s throwing from a clean pocket.

 

For the first six weeks last year, Josh Allen’s left foot was staggered forward in his pre-snap shotgun stance. He switched to staggering his right foot the last six weeks. What’s the significance of all that for him?

It’s comfort. That’s what it comes down to. What’s the individual player more comfortable with. Right now, Josh’s way is different than Matt’s current way. That’s because Matt’s more comfortable with his way. The bottom line is timing up your feet with the route combination. When your left foot is up, timing your drops is going to be different than when your right foot is up. At the end of the day, we don’t want to try to fit a square peg in a round hole. There’s not a set-in-stone “You have to do it this way” when it comes to this.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

Great post. We are winning way too much already this offseason. 

[mob16151]

I love the fact that Dorsey let's the QB do what they're comfortable with. Instead of trying to rework everything they do mechanics wise.

[whatdrought]

Honest question... when looking at the whole person, athletically speaking, is Josh the best physical specimen to ever play QB? (I’m not homer-ing, just honestly wondering)

 

Obviously he has his faults, and hopefully he fixes those issues, but has there ever been someone with the combination of altheticism and arm strength that he has? 

 

I feel like if you were building a QB entirely based on physical intangibles, he would be the mold.

[BringBackFlutie]

7 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Honest question... when looking at the whole person, athletically speaking, is Josh the best physical specimen to ever play QB? (I’m not homer-ing, just honestly wondering)

 

Obviously he has his faults, and hopefully he fixes those issues, but has there ever been someone with the combination of altheticism and arm strength that he has? 

 

I feel like if you were building a QB entirely based on physical intangibles, he would be the mold.

What are physical intangibles?

[whatdrought]

Just now, BringBackFlutie said:

What are physical intangibles?

 

Size, speed, strength, for a QB, arm strength. Overall athletic gifted ness that cannot be taught.

Edited May 31, 2019 by whatdrought

[Dr. Who]

7 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Honest question... when looking at the whole person, athletically speaking, is Josh the best physical specimen to ever play QB? (I’m not homer-ing, just honestly wondering)

 

Obviously he has his faults, and hopefully he fixes those issues, but has there ever been someone with the combination of altheticism and arm strength that he has? 

 

I feel like if you were building a QB entirely based on physical intangibles, he would be the mold.

Add in mental and psychological makeup as well. Confident, yet humble. Smart, takes responsibility, good sense of humor, natural leader.

[BringBackFlutie]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Add in mental and psychological makeup as well. Confident, yet humble. Smart, takes responsibility, good sense of humor, natural leader.

He's everything I've ever wanted in a QB, and wife.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

51 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Honest question... when looking at the whole person, athletically speaking, is Josh the best physical specimen to ever play QB? (I’m not homer-ing, just honestly wondering)

 

Obviously he has his faults, and hopefully he fixes those issues, but has there ever been someone with the combination of altheticism and arm strength that he has? 

 

I feel like if you were building a QB entirely based on physical intangibles, he would be the mold.

Good question!  I think about guys like Randall Cunningham, Cam Newton, and John Elway.  Allen's attributes are not unlike them early in their careers.  I'm sure there are some other similar guys but I just can't think of them at the moment.

[NewEra]

Where’s the super bowl this year?  Time to book some flights!!!

[BuffaloBill]

I really hope Josh is able to follow through on the potential.  His abilities are off the charts.

[RyanC883]

I like the fact  that he isn't trying to make QB's do something they are horribly uncomfortable with just to "fit" into some preconceived notion of how it "must be done."  

[AtlBills]

The intangible trait is that Josh is very intelligent and a quick study. You can have all the physical traits needed to be a franchise QB but if you can't process your reads and see what the defense is giving you,  you're never going to succeed. EJ Manuel comes to mind quckly. He had all the physical tools but not the mental aspect to process and execute. Only time will tell if we have our "guy".  I believe we have the right front office and coaching staff to bring Josh along and make him thrive.  

[John from Riverside]

Its like all the mistakes the Bills made with Josh last year...they might be a season late doing it...but they did get around to doing it.....

 

- Concerted effort to create a solid OL

- Which will help the running game which helps the QB

- A QB coach who is actually pretty well respected

- veteran WR's that actually start on other NFL teams to throw to

[WideNine]

2 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

I like the fact  that he isn't trying to make QB's do something they are horribly uncomfortable with just to "fit" into some preconceived notion of how it "must be done."  

 

He went over that in some detail with Simms too and talked about how having the left foot forward he felt he was out of rhythm when getting into his 3-step drop.

 

He would get to his drop too quickly, set his feet before the route had developed, then have his hips too open and not aligned properly for the short throws to the right. Having his feet set and with his hips too open (think parallel to the sideline rather than having the front hip angled more to where he intended to throw) to the right lent itself to throwing the ball "all arm" from an awkward position and those passes being less accurate.

 

At least that was how I interpreted what Josh was saying. Or we could just go with it felt more comfortable having the right foot forward, and the rhythm/timing worked better for his 3 steps drops allowing him to set his feet properly to be more accurate - especially short throws to the right. Either way, it is just good to see the way Josh and the other QBs work together to try to "peer review" their technique and work on improvements.

 

I think this year we may have a true semblance of a running game so Josh is going to have to work on perfecting his play action. Roll the tape of Peyton Manning and see how to carry out play action. Manning worked hard at eliminating any "tells" between the steps and motion taken on a play action play and those where he handed it off. He followed through each and every time. Brady, Brees, and Rogers are not too shabby either.

 

Legit play action that safeties will bite on, Josh's arm strength, and with Foster and Brown outside.... bombs away

 

 

 

 

 

[Chill]

If Chris Simms didnt say it , I don’t buy it. 

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

5 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Honest question... when looking at the whole person, athletically speaking, is Josh the best physical specimen to ever play QB? (I’m not homer-ing, just honestly wondering)

 

Obviously he has his faults, and hopefully he fixes those issues, but has there ever been someone with the combination of altheticism and arm strength that he has? 

 

I feel like if you were building a QB entirely based on physical intangibles, he would be the mold.

 

Pre-neck injury Peyton Manning was probably the complete package. Except that he wasn’t mobile, but that’s a relatively new aspect to grade a QB on. Next up would be Michael Vick in terms of all around athletic ability. 

 

In this new generation, Allen might be what you say, in terms of all around physical traits. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

I really hope Josh is able to follow through on the potential.  His abilities are off the charts.

 

 

...he sure gets high marks from ex-NFL QB's who have stayed connected to the game like  Dorsey, Professor Palmer, Dilfer, Simms, etc (their career stats have no bearing IMO).......certainly would trust their critical analyses citing pros, cons as well as the "in betweens" before any urinalists yapping.....

Edited May 31, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[whatdrought]

1 hour ago, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

 

Pre-neck injury Peyton Manning was probably the complete package. Except that he wasn’t mobile, but that’s a relatively new aspect to grade a QB on. Next up would be Michael Vick in terms of all around athletic ability. 

 

In this new generation, Allen might be what you say, in terms of all around physical traits. 

 

I don’t know if Manning was ever an athletic freak, though I realize his arm is better than I ever thought at the time as I thought it was more cerebral skill than physical. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by whatdrought

[WotAGuy]

7 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Honest question... when looking at the whole person, athletically speaking, is Josh the best physical specimen to ever play QB? (I’m not homer-ing, just honestly wondering)

 

I like to compare him to Tyrod. 

 

 

 

Because it shows how much better off they are. 

[DJB]

6 hours ago, BringBackFlutie said:

He's everything I've ever wanted in a QB, and wife.

 

I also look for 6 '5 250 pound hairy women to be my wife someday too!

[LSHMEAB]

9 hours ago, Juice_32 said:

 

 

For the first six weeks last year, Josh Allen’s left foot was staggered forward in his pre-snap shotgun stance. He switched to staggering his right foot the last six weeks. What’s the significance of all that for him?

It’s comfort. That’s what it comes down to. What’s the individual player more comfortable with. Right now, Josh’s way is different than Matt’s current way. That’s because Matt’s more comfortable with his way. The bottom line is timing up your feet with the route combination. When your left foot is up, timing your drops is going to be different than when your right foot is up. At the end of the day, we don’t want to try to fit a square peg in a round hole. There’s not a set-in-stone “You have to do it this way” when it comes to this.

That's my favorite response. Technique is important, but I don't believe it's helpful to micromanage a QB's mechanics. Tweak/suggest. That's fine. Don't make it so technical that the guy is thinking about every step during his drop or throw. 

8 hours ago, mob16151 said:

I love the fact that Dorsey let's the QB do what they're comfortable with. Instead of trying to rework everything they do mechanics wise.

You win!

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

13 minutes ago, DJB said:

 

I also look for 6 '5 250 pound hairy women to be my wife someday too!

...so the FIRST two weren't enough?...what happened?.............

Edited May 31, 2019 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[mob16151]

9 hours ago, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

Good question!  I think about guys like Randall Cunningham, Cam Newton, and John Elway.  Allen's attributes are not unlike them early in their careers.  I'm sure there are some other similar guys but I just can't think of them at the moment.

Warren Moon back in the day was another guy.

[Reks Ryan]

12 hours ago, whatdrought said:

Honest question... when looking at the whole person, athletically speaking, is Josh the best physical specimen to ever play QB? (I’m not homer-ing, just honestly wondering)

 

Obviously he has his faults, and hopefully he fixes those issues, but has there ever been someone with the combination of altheticism and arm strength that he has? 

 

I feel like if you were building a QB entirely based on physical intangibles, he would be the mold.

John Elway and Randall Cunningham come to mind.

 

Physical intangibles is an oxymoron.

[North Buffalo]

Cunningham was an unconventional freak... Overall athlete I think he compares best to Elway in his ability to scramble, arm strength and pure physical strength.  Elway's biggest problem was as a former baseball player he left cross hairs early on in his  receivers chest... but he developed touch and became a great QB... Joe Ferguson had that kind of arm strength from what I remember as a rookie and Archie Manning had a big arm.  Guys with touch but not as much athletic ability were Fouts and Marino... Jim Kelly had an underrated arm and though not much of a  runner, was a pretty good athlete as well... played Linebacker in high school and never forget one of his hits I think on Bubba McDowell after he threw an interception.  

[Chandler#81]

19 hours ago, mob16151 said:

I love the fact that Dorsey let's the QB do what they're comfortable with. Instead of trying to rework everything they do mechanics wise.

This actually gave me a ‘wtf?’ response. Dorsey not caring how a QB sets up to pass -and doing it the same way every time, speaks volumes to his NFL career -which was nothing. Every single aspect of a QB is studied to the nth degree, looking for a tip to the play. If he throws a quick hitch left better by having his left foot back in the gun, but switches it for a screen to the right, everybody in the League knows it by next week. Josh alluded to this somewhat with Chris Simms -how he ended up being too ‘open’ in his stance to be consistently accurate throwing quick outs. That was DA showing him that. A QB has to stick to only one way every time. If he can’t make decent throws to the other side, Practice, Practice, Practice. Anything else is a tip off and unacceptable. 

[ROCBillsBeliever]

13 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

certainly would trust their critical analyses citing pros, cons as well as the "in betweens" before any urinalists yapping.....

 

I was actually going to start a band called The Yapping Urinalists. I need a bassist. You in? 

[PetermansRedemption]

Why was Ken Dorsey asked so many questions about Josh Allen?

[Max Fischer]

Subscribe to the Athletic, very impressive reporting, on all sports. Hopefully the publication can survive and thrive. 

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

This actually gave me a ‘wtf?’ response. Dorsey not caring how a QB sets up to pass -and doing it the same way every time, speaks volumes to his NFL career -which was nothing. Every single aspect of a QB is studied to the nth degree, looking for a tip to the play. If he throws a quick hitch left better by having his left foot back in the gun, but switches it for a screen to the right, everybody in the League knows it by next week. Josh alluded to this somewhat with Chris Simms -how he ended up being too ‘open’ in his stance to be consistently accurate throwing quick outs. That was DA showing him that. A QB has to stick to only one way every time. If he can’t make decent throws to the other side, Practice, Practice, Practice. Anything else is a tip off and unacceptable. 

 

It seems though that what the article indicated was that Dorsey doesn’t care which foot goes where or if your arm isn’t exactly 90 degrees with your wrist and shoulder. If whatever you do works, that’s what Dorsey is going to work with. 

 

I dont think the article indicates that there is a nonchalant attitude towards mechanics 

[eball]

I think both Dorsey and Daboll are giddy as schoolgirls at the prospect of watching Allen grow into this position.  He's going to make them look very, very good.

 

Who knows, maybe in a year or two Dabes gets his HC shot and Dorsey takes over as OC.  I'd be cool with that if the Bills are winning football games.

[GG]

23 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

Size, speed, strength, for a QB, arm strength. Overall athletic gifted ness that cannot be taught.

Aren't the first ones tangibles?

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

On 5/31/2019 at 11:53 AM, whatdrought said:

 

Size, speed, strength, for a QB, arm strength. Overall athletic gifted ness that cannot be taught.

 

People say this kind of thing and it’s just not true. The only thing on that list that cannot be taught or trained is height. That’s purely genetic. 

 

Weight, Speed, Strength, Agility, Dexterity, all can be taught. Especially at the pro level when guys are not limited by NCAA restrictions on workouts and exercise plans. A great example of this is in the Chris Simms interview. Josh Allen says himself that he didn’t develop his speed until he began training for the draft. And we see how that turned out. He was slow in High School and College. That’s why his speed was so surprising to everyone. Because it was a new addition. Something he had learned. 

 

Aaron Rodgers DID NOT have a cannon for an arm when he was drafted out of Cal. He learned better mechanics, and trained and developed into the best QB of his generation. 

 

While it’s true that some guys are “born with it”, others are not, and they have to work harder. But to say that you cannot teach athletic ability is just flat out wrong. No offense. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by RobbRiddicksTDLeap

[whatdrought]

21 minutes ago, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

 

People say this kind of thing and it’s just not true. The only thing on that list that cannot be taught or trained is height. That’s purely genetic. 

 

Weight, Speed, Strength, Agility, Dexterity, all can be taught. Especially at the pro level when guys are not limited by NCAA restrictions on workouts and exercise plans. A great example of this is in the Chris Simms interview. Josh Allen says himself that he didn’t develop his speed until he began training for the draft. And we see how that turned out. He was slow in High School and College. That’s why his speed was so surprising to everyone. Because it was a new addition. Something he had learned. 

 

Aaron Rodgers DID NOT have a cannon for an arm when he was drafted out of Cal. He learned better mechanics, and trained and developed into the best QB of his generation. 

 

While it’s true that some guys are “born with it”, others are not, and they have to work harder. But to say that you cannot teach athletic ability is just flat out wrong. No offense. 

 

You can heighten what exists, but you cannot teach it from nothing. 

 

No matter what Andy Dalton does, or how he trains, he will never be able to throw the ball with the velocity that Josh Allen can. That’s just how the world works. 

 

Allens physical ceiling is higher. If you subjected Josh Allen and Andy Dalton to the same exact regime, at the end of it Allen would run faster, jump higher, and throw the ball faster/stronger/further. That’s how athletic aptitude works. 

 

Raw athletic gifting has little value uneless properly channeled and used,  but that’s the very point of my argument- Allen has more raw athletic talent than many other QB’s to ever step on a field.

Edited June 1, 2019 by whatdrought

[whatdrought]

13 hours ago, Reks Ryan said:

John Elway and Randall Cunningham come to mind.

 

Physical intangibles is an oxymoron.

 

 

Lol. Yep. My bad. ? 

[Shaw66]

On 5/31/2019 at 11:43 AM, whatdrought said:

Honest question... when looking at the whole person, athletically speaking, is Josh the best physical specimen to ever play QB? (I’m not homer-ing, just honestly wondering)

 

Obviously he has his faults, and hopefully he fixes those issues, but has there ever been someone with the combination of altheticism and arm strength that he has? 

 

I feel like if you were building a QB entirely based on physical intangibles, he would be the mold.

I think he is.  Great arm strength, compared to the very best.  Great size, compared to the very best.  Great speed, compared to the very best.  

 

Maybe the best total package, purely physically, ever. 

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

4 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

You can heighten what exists, but you cannot teach it from nothing. 

 

No matter what Andy Dalton does, or how he trains, he will never be able to throw the ball with the velocity that Josh Allen can. That’s just how the world works. 

 

Allens physical ceiling is higher. If you subjected Josh Allen and Andy Dalton to the same exact regime, at the end of it Allen would run faster, jump higher, and throw the ball faster/stronger/further. That’s how athletic aptitude works. 

 

Raw athletic gifting has little value uneless properly channeled and used,  but that’s the very point of my argument- Allen has more raw athletic talent than many other QB’s to ever step on a field.

 

Again, i disagree. 

 

If the Cincinnati Bengals had wanted to develop him the way that the Packers developed Rodgers, I’m fairly certain he would have developed into a cannon armed QB. 

 

Again, Rodgers was not “gifted” the way that Allen was, yet he still possesses the same kind of arm talent. 

 

Some require less work than others. And some, with the right kind of work, can. 

 

I don’t know. Maybe we are splitting hairs, I’ve just seen people develop strength and speed and turn into athletic animals with nothing compared what NFL players have at their disposal. I agree with the premise that some have stuff that can’t be taught. But the idea that people can’t be taught speed or strength or throwing velocity is just incorrect. You only need to look at any pitcher that is recovered from Tommy John surgery. They literally have to teach themselves how to throw again, with accuracy and velocity.

 

I love Josh Allen. I agree that he is a generational sort of athletic talent at the position, but by his own admission, he worked at it. He was taught how to be better and turn his raw gifts into something special. Don’t discount hard work and the results you get from it. 

[whatdrought]

2 hours ago, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

 

Again, i disagree. 

 

If the Cincinnati Bengals had wanted to develop him the way that the Packers developed Rodgers, I’m fairly certain he would have developed into a cannon armed QB. 

 

Again, Rodgers was not “gifted” the way that Allen was, yet he still possesses the same kind of arm talent. 

 

Some require less work than others. And some, with the right kind of work, can. 

 

I don’t know. Maybe we are splitting hairs, I’ve just seen people develop strength and speed and turn into athletic animals with nothing compared what NFL players have at their disposal. I agree with the premise that some have stuff that can’t be taught. But the idea that people can’t be taught speed or strength or throwing velocity is just incorrect. You only need to look at any pitcher that is recovered from Tommy John surgery. They literally have to teach themselves how to throw again, with accuracy and velocity.

 

I love Josh Allen. I agree that he is a generational sort of athletic talent at the position, but by his own admission, he worked at it. He was taught how to be better and turn his raw gifts into something special. Don’t discount hard work and the results you get from it. 

 

You just agreed to my entire argument. 

 

They have different ceilings. If Rodgers developed a cannon arm that he didn't have in college it was because he had the potential to do that... Not everyone has that potential and not everyone has the same level of potential. My entire argument is that Allen has more potential than most other QB's do... 

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

18 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

You just agreed to my entire argument. 

 

They have different ceilings. If Rodgers developed a cannon arm that he didn't have in college it was because he had the potential to do that... Not everyone has that potential and not everyone has the same level of potential. My entire argument is that Allen has more potential than most other QB's do... 

 

I agreed with the premise, not with the point you are trying to make. 

 

Ive said my peace, i think we can agree to disagree on this. 

 

Go Bills