New Stadium Talk as of owner’s meetings

[Mr. WEO]

21 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

My thoughts on this are pretty simple. Wherever it goes next is going to be a “business decision” not a fan experience decision. What is best for the government and best for the Pegulas are not necessarily the same. It will almost certainly be a public/private deal. The expression “split the difference” is a little ironic IMO. That’s how I see this thing playing out. 

 

The Pegulas want to maximize revenue and the government wants to minimize cost. My guess is 65,000 seats, downtown (somewhere), with a price tag in the $1B range. It will be split almost evenly between the state and the Bills. 

 

 

Good luck with that.  The political climate is its worst ever for convincing the public to pay for something this owner could purchase in cash out of pocket.

 

 

8 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

There is going to be a billion dollars spent in Buffalo when this thing kicks off.  The biggest project in the history of Western New York.  It is a once in a life time opportunity for all these crooks and they are going to make sure they get as much of it as they can. 

 

 

 

 

Say what?  You mean the biggest project in western NY.....other than the "Buffalo Billion"....where all the crooks got all the money?

 

 

[teef]

13 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

 

What you say is true true to some extent.  However I think the NFL would rather remove as many idiots from the stadium as possible so more fans can have a better experience as opposed to just the fans in the club seats.

oh sure, but there's always going to be an element of that.  if there's a game where alcohol is served, someone is bound to get out of control, no matter how much you minimize it.  that unfortunately applies to most public events.

[Hammered a Lot]

8 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

All these posts show the pickle that the Pegulas are in.  No matter what they decide to do, they will upset about a third of the people who go to the games.  I think there are three things though that are clear.

 

1 ;   The stadium will be built downtown, and unfortunately, it has nothing to do with common sense or the game day experience.  There is simply more opportunities for public officials and union bosses and developers to get rich if the stadium is built down town.  Politicians accepting "campaign contributions" to sign off on the project, union bosses getting their kickbacks, bureaucrats getting an envelope of cash to waive that zoning requirement or environmental impact statement.  The businessmen who already own property down town will be working behind the scenes with the politicians they already own to make sure the stadium gets built there to increase the value of their assets. They will all be angling for a piece of the pie and more people will get a piece of the pie if the stadium is built downtown than if it is built out in the boonies of Erie County in Orchard Park.  There is going to be a billion dollars spent in Buffalo when this thing kicks off.  The biggest project in the history of Western New York.  It is a once in a life time opportunity for all these crooks and they are going to make sure they get as much of it as they can. The stadium is going downtown.  Book it.

 

2;  This thing will have a roof.  Please refer to the point above.  There is more money to be made on the stadium if it is a year round venue.  The state and city and county are not going to chip in hundreds of millions of dollars for a stadium that gets used a dozen times a year.  There isn't enough profit in it for them and everyone else with their hands in the till.  The Pegulas will be forced to put a roof on the stadium to get the public funds.  

 

3;  The teams HQ and practice facilities will stay in Orchard Park.  The Pegulas are quietly building some of the best facilities in the entire league in Orchard Park.  No sense in tearing it all down after throwing tens of millions of dollars into it.  More than that, it makes no sense to use expensive downtown real estate on weight rooms and training rooms, and cafeterias, and office space when they already have it on the cheap in Orchard Park.

 

 

Quietly? It's been announced that the Pegulas the last two years have spent  $36 million on the faculties.

[Hammered a Lot]

10 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

I'm sorry to hear that you had a problem.    I lived downtown for five years and have worked in the CBD for 30-plus.  Walked to and from work, to and from parking ramps, many times late at night.   In all that time, I can only remember one mugging incident of someone I knew and just a handful of panhandlers.   

 

Crime is not an issue that has to be factored into a stadium location decision, IMO...

Crime is a real fact if your going to be going to a facility and have to go back  to your car in a isolated area due to lack of centralized parking. My friend and I went to a Bills vs Indy game. Walking in Indy, turned the corner, bam saw a stickup. Gun included. Sorry you are safer in Orchard Park than in Buffalo. No shooting in OP this year, Buffalo???

[Augie]

10 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Please. Go do your 'better things', so we don't have to read your whining........

https://www.ibmadison.com/In-Business-Madison/August-2013/A-brief-history-of-Lambeau-Field-renovations/

 

Aug can dish it out, but he can't take it.........

Not all all, wrong again! That was the first time I had noticed the please don’t drink and derive, and as I said....I found it to be funny. You read too much into that, as it was exactly what it appeared to be. I even added the “really”, in case you weren’t sure. 

[PromoTheRobot]

16 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

When is the last time you tailgated?  Yes, there are sometimes drunken idiots doing drunken idiot things.  However, my experience is that there are far more sober people having fun and enjoying the experience.  I personally hate any idea that kills the tailgating scene.  

 

And nothing will prevent people from doing that at a new downtown stadium if they want.

[GG]

13 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Money talks, etc........ I think the Pegulas will use the current facility for as long as it is practical. It is mostly outside forces driving the new stadium argument for the most part. I've stated that the old Bethlehem Steel site would be a great place for a new facility. The tailgate culture could be preserved, vs. a downtown stadium, which would change the fan experience in a negative way, IMO.

'Brownfield' tax credits could be used to rehab the Bethlehem plant, which I would think, could be had for a song, considering what might be bubbling beneath the surface of that site.

Otherwise, build next door. The Pegula's bought property adjacent to 'Rich' Stadium with that purpose in mind........

 

If you are considering Bethlehem steel site, then you may as well stay in OP.  There would need to be a hell of a lot more road access improvements to Lackawanna than to a downtown site, along with far fewer side benefits.

 

The choices are obvious - stay and upgrade NEF or build new near KeyBank

[Lurker]

1 hour ago, Hammered a Lot said:

Crime is a real fact if your going to be going to a facility and have to go back  to your car in a isolated area due to lack of centralized parking. My friend and I went to a Bills vs Indy game. Walking in Indy, turned the corner, bam saw a stickup. Gun included. Sorry you are safer in Orchard Park than in Buffalo. No shooting in OP this year, Buffalo???

 

Not to be argumentative, but there have been no shootings in the CBD during sporting events or concerts either (right, Sabres fans).   

 

I get your suburban angst and personal experiences elsewhere.   And to be truthful, OP is safer than the CITY of Buffalo.   But downtown around Canalside or any of the major event venues?     How about finding me some real (not imagined) data to back that up?     

 

[May Day 10]

This is a big decision.  The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc).

 

 

Make good sight lines.  Seats close to the field.  Weaponize crowd noise.  Good fan experience for watching football.  Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals.  Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance  

 

 

[Kirby Jackson]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Good luck with that.  The political climate is its worst ever for convincing the public to pay for something this owner could purchase in cash out of pocket.

 

 

 

Say what?  You mean the biggest project in western NY.....other than the "Buffalo Billion"....where all the crooks got all the money?

 

 

I hear you but everyone else is doing it. It is not going to be something that the Pegulas pick up alone. There are so many new revenue streamson the horizon (marijuana, sports betting, etc..) that they can find their portion. 

[Just Jack]

11 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Is it doubtful to think that an NFL team (even in Buffalo) could get $7.5M a year in naming rights? That’s not aggressive (at all). 

 

$100M through PSLs isn’t that crazy either. 10,000 seats at $5k, 20,000 seats at $2,500 and you are there. Obviously those are averages but that is not a stretch at all. That’s especially true if they are paid off over 5 years.

PSL's, at least for my club seats, are paid every year, not paid off after a certain number of years. Currently, for this season, I'm paying about $800/seat. And that's for one of the cheapest sections in the clubs. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Just Jack

[Kirby Jackson]

13 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

This is a big decision.  The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc).

 

 

Make good sight lines.  Seats close to the field.  Weaponize crowd noise.  Good fan experience for watching football.  Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals.  Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance  

 

 

There is the crux of the decision. If given truth serum, both the NFL (and the Pegulas) would say that revenue generation is the entire conversation. Fan experience goes into that but is a secondary factor. They will have the amenities that people want, assuming that they pay for them. It is about $$$

Just now, Just Jack said:

PSL's, at least for my club seats, are paid every year, not paid off after a certain number of years. Currently, for this season, I'm paying about $800/seat. 

Yep and I think that it will be similar moving forward (just require a longer commitment). Additionally, they probably won’t let people out of those contracts as easily. 

[LabattBlue]

28 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Not to be argumentative, but there have been no shootings in the CBD during sporting events or concerts either (right, Sabres fans).   

 

I get your suburban angst and personal experiences elsewhere.   And to be truthful, OP is safer than the CITY of Buffalo.   But downtown around Canalside or any of the major event venues?     How about finding me some real (not imagined) data to back that up?     

 

Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year.

[Augie]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

There is the crux of the decision. If given truth serum, both the NFL (and the Pegulas) would say that revenue generation is the entire conversation. Fan experience goes into that but is a secondary factor. They will have the amenities that people want, assuming that they pay for them. It is about $$$

 

Yep, but that’s the ONLY way they would say it publicly!     ?

 

Even emphasizing the fan’s game day experience is directly related to generating revenue, not just an altruistic endeavor. 

 

 

.

[LabattBlue]

21 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

This is a big decision.  The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc).

 

 

Make good sight lines.  Seats close to the field.  Weaponize crowd noise.  Good fan experience for watching football.  Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals.  Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance  

 

 

The sight lines in the 100 level of the arena drive me crazy.  I'd love to know from the design team, WTF they were thinking...especially coming from the Aud, where even the lower bowl was steep enough that you never had a problem seeing over the person in front of you.

[Lurker]

4 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year.

 

Well, I didn't want to go there.  But since you brought it up...

 

 

2 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I'd love to know from the design team, WTF they were thinking...especially coming from the Aud, where even the lower bowl was steep enough that you never had a problem seeing over the person in front of you.

 

That has more to do with ADA building requirements than anything.   Can't design an "Aud" experience anymore.   It's just not up to current codes...

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Lurker

[Just Jack]

11 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year.

 

Wouldn't you be a bit biased also if you saw a good steady source of income disappearing in a few years? 

[Kirby Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

Wouldn't you be a bit biased also if you saw a good steady source of income disappearing in a few years? 

Yep, Hammer has the most at stake for sure. He should feel like he does. We all would feel the EXACT same way.

[LabattBlue]

5 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

Wouldn't you be a bit biased also if you saw a good steady source of income disappearing in a few years? 

Fine...but don't just spin nonsense.  

[dollars 2 donuts]

Two things, quick, and I am sorry if they have already been talked about:

 

1.  Given Pegulas comments are we just taking a domed stadium or retractable roof stadium off the board?  I believe so, unless you can find a way to bring that under 600 or so million dollars, which a shot in the dark tells me is the sweet spot.

2.  Wouldn't many of us anyways prefer or a more moderate stadium with more reasonable tickets than the cathedrals we are seeing built?

Edited March 28, 2019 by dollars 2 donuts

[LabattBlue]

Just now, dollars 2 donuts said:

Two things, quick, and I am sorry if they have already been talked about:

 

1.  Given Pegulas comments are we just taking a domed stadium or retractable roof stadium off the board?  I believe so, unless you can find away to bring that under 600 or so million dollars, which a shot in the dark tells me is the sweet spot.

2.  Wouldn't many of us anyways prefer or a more moderate stadium with more reasonable tickets than the cathedrals we are seeing built?

Just my 2 cents.  I think a retractable roof is a waste of money and not being considered, but a moderately priced domed stadium which is more in line with Minnesota and Indy, and not Jerry's World or Mercedes Dome, is probably going to end up being the answer. 

[zonabb]

I've working in the community engagement field, and I can tell you for certain that public surveys and comment periods are nothing more than token lip service AND that consultants hired by the govt are hired to confirm the position of leaders, not do what's best for the community or provide empirically driven, unbiased findings. Poloncarz hired a firm to "study" a convention center. He conducted a public survey (which by many accounts was responded to by a massive push by the Poloncarz and Democratic machine to get people to respond in favor influence the results). Everything in the study and the survey said it was a good idea. But when you look around the country, read cost-benefit analyses on convention centers, they are f'in losers in most places. The county is going to spend $400+M to build one, then millions annually to maintain and operate it. Who benefits? The wealthy developers who fund his campaign and every politicians campaign and who, by the way, also own the bars and hotels that'll slightly benefit and who, by the way, we subsidized those buildings for. All around, economic development public-private partnerships are losers for the public and a boon for the wealthy. Socialized debt, privatized profit.

 

The same is true for sports teams who hire consultants to examine stadium options and conduct surveys. The owners have already made up their mind, their hire a firm to tell "them" what they want to hear so that they can "tell" the govt the predicament they are in so drum up support. And when the NFL has been bashing you over the head publicly for years to build a new stadium, you hire a firm not to tell you if you should do it, but one to tell you where to do it and how to finance it. 

 

Pegula$ were pretty obvious in their statements that a new stadium is coming. When you hear someone say "gamechanger" and "impactful" and “It’s going to take a lot of work from a lot of people. The county, the fans, us, the stadium, the league, the state" it confirms my experience in development and public engagement. 

 

And in her comment above, "work" means money. These people are basically pilferers of the public. We pay for their stadium now. They're one of the richest families in America. They've made hundreds of millions of profit on the team in cash and equity. And they want a new stadium but WE have to "work" hard for it? No thanks. One penny is one penny too much for supporting any owner in this league in any market. This team is profitable NOW, as it stands, in this market, in this stadium enough so that they plunked down a cook $1.2B. We have to make sure that in addition to ensuring maximum profit (remember, that's what this is about' it's the potential untapped profit they want to make but it requires US to pay for it) , we subsidize it more so many of us can be excluded? 

 

I won't pay for a PSL, I won't pay more than $100 per game for a seat (ticket is super close now) and I suspect many in my large group will be out. So the real question is... can they built something comfortable enough for affluent white professionals to cough up money for tickets so their wives can parade around in knee high boots and spend the entire game on their phones like at Sabres games?

 

What this is about, and what needs to happen for this power play to work, is a significant shift in the composition of the attending fan base away from the commoners who have supported this team through this miserable stretch to a more affluent group that will buy a "status symbol" season ticket, consume expensive food and drinks, and generally consume the NFL and not care about the game. The league and Pegula$ are capitalists first and foremost. The game is secondary, the profit is primary. 

 

Or, they keep tickets roughly the same with a small increase and the same general cohort of STH remain. However, that will require a SUBSTANTIALLY higher investment from the govt to increase the annual profit to keep Jerry Jone$ and Robert "Rub and Tug" Kraft happy. 

 

Either way, I'm not on board with spending precious public capital on a stadium the owners can clearly afford (this is not about whether they can or can't, it's about playing the economic development corporate welfare game) when we have dire needs in this region ... our roads and bridges are a mess, our sewer and water systems are a mess, our neighborhoods need some help and our people are being left behind. But we're supposed to invest in a billionaire for 10 events a year. 

What happened to "I'll drill another well" when he needed money?

 

 

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, zonabb said:

I've working in the community engagement field, and I can tell you for certain that public surveys and comment periods are nothing more than token lip service AND that consultants hired by the govt are hired to confirm the position of leaders, not do what's best for the community or provide empirically driven, unbiased findings.

 

I said this same thing when they did there surveys and had their little STH focus groups.  They mean nothing.  IMO...they have already decided what type of stadium they want, and where it will be.  It's just waiting for an announcement at this point.

[RiotAct]

zonabb — you are my hero.

[oldmanfan]

13 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Just my 2 cents.  I think a retractable roof is a waste of money and not being considered, but a moderately priced domed stadium which is more in line with Minnesota and Indy, and not Jerry's World or Mercedes Dome, is probably going to end up being the answer. 

Point of information, but they can open the roof here in Indy.

[Just Jack]

31 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

2.  Wouldn't many of us anyways prefer or a more moderate stadium with more reasonable tickets than the cathedrals we are seeing built?

 

I would prefer something like Houston or Indy has, the "warehouse" style stadium. Simple, basic, rectangle box, drop a field inside. No special engineering/designing needed. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I hear you but everyone else is doing it. It is not going to be something that the Pegulas pick up alone. There are so many new revenue streamson the horizon (marijuana, sports betting, etc..) that they can find their portion. 

 

You can't bid out a billion dollar project on tax revenue on activities that aren't even legal yet.  Also, as you know, Any new tax revenue will not be earmarked for a particular item.

 

And finally,  every downstate legislator is going to raise the Buffalo Billions fiasco over and over as a reason not to waste anymore taxpayer dollars on special projects in Buffalo.  And most NY citizens would be behind that sentiment, no doubt.

 

How much money did NYS kick in for Harborcenter?  None.  If Pegula wants a new stadium, let him pay for it like he did for the Bills/Sabres/Harborcenter.  He can afford it.  NYS obviously cannot.  The MTA alone needs 30-40 billion.  The political atmosphere is toxic for billionaires and tax breaks.  Look how they swatted Amazon out in a week over (crazy, I think) issues of deferred business taxes.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[Hammered a Lot]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

Fine...but don't just spin nonsense.  

Nonsense?

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

Just my 2 cents.  I think a retractable roof is a waste of money and not being considered, but a moderately priced domed stadium which is more in line with Minnesota and Indy, and not Jerry's World or Mercedes Dome, is probably going to end up being the answer. 

What's moderately price mean ? 1 billion -1.5 billion?

 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

Just my 2 cents.  I think a retractable roof is a waste of money and not being considered, but a moderately priced domed stadium which is more in line with Minnesota and Indy, and not Jerry's World or Mercedes Dome, is probably going to end up being the answer. 

 

Terry's first response to a dome, when questioned, was "no".  Then he went on to the "let's see what the study says" BS.

1 hour ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

Two things, quick, and I am sorry if they have already been talked about:

 

1.  Given Pegulas comments are we just taking a domed stadium or retractable roof stadium off the board?  I believe so, unless you can find a way to bring that under 600 or so million dollars, which a shot in the dark tells me is the sweet spot.

2.  Wouldn't many of us anyways prefer or a more moderate stadium with more reasonable tickets than the cathedrals we are seeing built?

 

 

New stadium is never going to equal "reasonable tickets" nowadays.  Unless they are planning PSLs, they will have to jack way up the season ticket prices. 

[Hammered a Lot]

1 hour ago, LabattBlue said:

Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year.

Ramblings? And what you post is not?

[LabattBlue]

10 minutes ago, Hammered a Lot said:

Nonsense?

What's moderately price mean ? 1 billion -1.5 billion?

 

Like I said your biased...but your experience in Indy is reason to have a stadium in the suburbs instead of in a downtown area?  Yes...that is nonsense.

 

 

[iinii]

1 hour ago, zonabb said:

I've working in the community engagement field, and I can tell you for certain that public surveys and comment periods are nothing more than token lip service AND that consultants hired by the govt are hired to confirm the position of leaders, not do what's best for the community or provide empirically driven, unbiased findings. Poloncarz hired a firm to "study" a convention center. He conducted a public survey (which by many accounts was responded to by a massive push by the Poloncarz and Democratic machine to get people to respond in favor influence the results). Everything in the study and the survey said it was a good idea. But when you look around the country, read cost-benefit analyses on convention centers, they are f'in losers in most places. The county is going to spend $400+M to build one, then millions annually to maintain and operate it. Who benefits? The wealthy developers who fund his campaign and every politicians campaign and who, by the way, also own the bars and hotels that'll slightly benefit and who, by the way, we subsidized those buildings for. All around, economic development public-private partnerships are losers for the public and a boon for the wealthy. Socialized debt, privatized profit.

 

The same is true for sports teams who hire consultants to examine stadium options and conduct surveys. The owners have already made up their mind, their hire a firm to tell "them" what they want to hear so that they can "tell" the govt the predicament they are in so drum up support. And when the NFL has been bashing you over the head publicly for years to build a new stadium, you hire a firm not to tell you if you should do it, but one to tell you where to do it and how to finance it. 

 

Pegula$ were pretty obvious in their statements that a new stadium is coming. When you hear someone say "gamechanger" and "impactful" and “It’s going to take a lot of work from a lot of people. The county, the fans, us, the stadium, the league, the state" it confirms my experience in development and public engagement. 

 

And in her comment above, "work" means money. These people are basically pilferers of the public. We pay for their stadium now. They're one of the richest families in America. They've made hundreds of millions of profit on the team in cash and equity. And they want a new stadium but WE have to "work" hard for it? No thanks. One penny is one penny too much for supporting any owner in this league in any market. This team is profitable NOW, as it stands, in this market, in this stadium enough so that they plunked down a cook $1.2B. We have to make sure that in addition to ensuring maximum profit (remember, that's what this is about' it's the potential untapped profit they want to make but it requires US to pay for it) , we subsidize it more so many of us can be excluded? 

 

I won't pay for a PSL, I won't pay more than $100 per game for a seat (ticket is super close now) and I suspect many in my large group will be out. So the real question is... can they built something comfortable enough for affluent white professionals to cough up money for tickets so their wives can parade around in knee high boots and spend the entire game on their phones like at Sabres games?

 

What this is about, and what needs to happen for this power play to work, is a significant shift in the composition of the attending fan base away from the commoners who have supported this team through this miserable stretch to a more affluent group that will buy a "status symbol" season ticket, consume expensive food and drinks, and generally consume the NFL and not care about the game. The league and Pegula$ are capitalists first and foremost. The game is secondary, the profit is primary. 

 

Or, they keep tickets roughly the same with a small increase and the same general cohort of STH remain. However, that will require a SUBSTANTIALLY higher investment from the govt to increase the annual profit to keep Jerry Jone$ and Robert "Rub and Tug" Kraft happy. 

 

Either way, I'm not on board with spending precious public capital on a stadium the owners can clearly afford (this is not about whether they can or can't, it's about playing the economic development corporate welfare game) when we have dire needs in this region ... our roads and bridges are a mess, our sewer and water systems are a mess, our neighborhoods need some help and our people are being left behind. But we're supposed to invest in a billionaire for 10 events a year. 

What happened to "I'll drill another well" when he needed money?

 

 

Peg$ doesn’t care about anything but himself. Just another billionaire who can’t get enough, at the expense of you and the environment.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

54 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

I would prefer something like Houston or Indy has, the "warehouse" style stadium. Simple, basic, rectangle box, drop a field inside. No special engineering/designing needed. 

 

me too, I actually like the look of Lucas Oil.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

43 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

You can't bid out a billion dollar project on tax revenue on activities that aren't even legal yet.  Also, as you know, Any new tax revenue will not be earmarked for a particular item.

 

And finally,  every downstate legislator is going to raise the Buffalo Billions fiasco over and over as a reason not to waste anymore taxpayer dollars on special projects in Buffalo.  And most NY citizens would be behind that sentiment, no doubt.

 

How much money did NYS kick in for Harborcenter?  None.  If Pegula wants a new stadium, let him pay for it like he did for the Bills/Sabres/Harborcenter.  He can afford it.  NYS obviously cannot.  The MTA alone needs 30-40 billion.  The political atmosphere is toxic for billionaires and tax breaks.  Look how they swatted Amazon out in a week over (crazy, I think) issues of deferred business taxes.

This isn’t being done tomorrow. The project isn’t being bid out yet.

 

The Pegulas aren’t going to accept the “you can afford it” argument when it is commonplace elsewhere. The NFL (located in NY) will back them. They want a new stadium for the Bills. The Bills will pick up their share but they won’t be paying for all of it. 

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, zonabb said:

I've working in the community engagement field, and I can tell you for certain that public surveys and comment periods are nothing more than token lip service AND that consultants hired by the govt are hired to confirm the position of leaders, not do what's best for the community or provide empirically driven, unbiased findings. Poloncarz hired a firm to "study" a convention center. He conducted a public survey (which by many accounts was responded to by a massive push by the Poloncarz and Democratic machine to get people to respond in favor influence the results). Everything in the study and the survey said it was a good idea. But when you look around the country, read cost-benefit analyses on convention centers, they are f'in losers in most places. The county is going to spend $400+M to build one, then millions annually to maintain and operate it. Who benefits? The wealthy developers who fund his campaign and every politicians campaign and who, by the way, also own the bars and hotels that'll slightly benefit and who, by the way, we subsidized those buildings for. All around, economic development public-private partnerships are losers for the public and a boon for the wealthy. Socialized debt, privatized profit.

 

The same is true for sports teams who hire consultants to examine stadium options and conduct surveys. The owners have already made up their mind, their hire a firm to tell "them" what they want to hear so that they can "tell" the govt the predicament they are in so drum up support. And when the NFL has been bashing you over the head publicly for years to build a new stadium, you hire a firm not to tell you if you should do it, but one to tell you where to do it and how to finance it. 

 

Pegula$ were pretty obvious in their statements that a new stadium is coming. When you hear someone say "gamechanger" and "impactful" and “It’s going to take a lot of work from a lot of people. The county, the fans, us, the stadium, the league, the state" it confirms my experience in development and public engagement. 

 

And in her comment above, "work" means money. These people are basically pilferers of the public. We pay for their stadium now. They're one of the richest families in America. They've made hundreds of millions of profit on the team in cash and equity. And they want a new stadium but WE have to "work" hard for it? No thanks. One penny is one penny too much for supporting any owner in this league in any market. This team is profitable NOW, as it stands, in this market, in this stadium enough so that they plunked down a cook $1.2B. We have to make sure that in addition to ensuring maximum profit (remember, that's what this is about' it's the potential untapped profit they want to make but it requires US to pay for it) , we subsidize it more so many of us can be excluded? 

 

I won't pay for a PSL, I won't pay more than $100 per game for a seat (ticket is super close now) and I suspect many in my large group will be out. So the real question is... can they built something comfortable enough for affluent white professionals to cough up money for tickets so their wives can parade around in knee high boots and spend the entire game on their phones like at Sabres games?

 

What this is about, and what needs to happen for this power play to work, is a significant shift in the composition of the attending fan base away from the commoners who have supported this team through this miserable stretch to a more affluent group that will buy a "status symbol" season ticket, consume expensive food and drinks, and generally consume the NFL and not care about the game. The league and Pegula$ are capitalists first and foremost. The game is secondary, the profit is primary. 

 

Or, they keep tickets roughly the same with a small increase and the same general cohort of STH remain. However, that will require a SUBSTANTIALLY higher investment from the govt to increase the annual profit to keep Jerry Jone$ and Robert "Rub and Tug" Kraft happy. 

 

Either way, I'm not on board with spending precious public capital on a stadium the owners can clearly afford (this is not about whether they can or can't, it's about playing the economic development corporate welfare game) when we have dire needs in this region ... our roads and bridges are a mess, our sewer and water systems are a mess, our neighborhoods need some help and our people are being left behind. But we're supposed to invest in a billionaire for 10 events a year. 

What happened to "I'll drill another well" when he needed money?

 

 

While your post makes sweeping generalizations about the Bills target customer, there are some valid political points. IF we lived in a perfect world, right ? We all know that we don’t, and government is far from great with taxpayer dollars. However, we don’t live in a perfect world and if a new stadium is desired by the Pegulas and Co, it will almost certainly get done. Most likely a combination of funding sources will be used including some tax $. That’s how it is. It’s not just the NFL, lots of profitable businesses do this kind of thing in some shape or form. While I acknowledge the validity of your message, I don’t agree with it personally. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Kirby Jackson said:

This isn’t being done tomorrow. The project isn’t being bid out yet.

 

The Pegulas aren’t going to accept the “you can afford it” argument when it is commonplace elsewhere. The NFL (located in NY) will back them. They want a new stadium for the Bills. The Bills will pick up their share but they won’t be paying for all of it. 

 

What leverage does Pegula have over NYS?

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, Mr. WEO said:

 

What leverage does Pegula have over NYS?

Well, he does own the only NFL team in the state...

 

I’m not sure that he would ever play that card but he certainly can. He could certainly entertain other locations. That’s the nuclear option but it’s an option...

[WhoTom]

22 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

How is it that Indy(a dome team) came into RWS two years ago, and beat the Bills while the snow piled up quarter after quarter?

 

They didn't. http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=400951560

 

[Mr. WEO]

12 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Well, he does own the only NFL team in the state...

 

I’m not sure that he would ever play that card but he certainly can. He could certainly entertain other locations. That’s the nuclear option but it’s an option...

 

That's his leverage?  That he moves the team?

 

He had that chance.  Who wouldn't call that bluff (of those legislators who do not represent WNY)?  They would ask....."where you gonna go?"

 

Pegula's pal Stan Kroenke had a plan all along to move out of St. Louis--he was just waiting for LA.  Pegula doesn't have that option.  And Kroenke is putting up 1.6 billion cash and financing another 2.25 billion for a project that is now expected to cost at least 4.25 billion.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Mr. WEO

[LabattBlue]

22 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

They didn't. http://www.espn.com/nfl/game?gameId=400951560

 

hahahaha...my mistake...but they did take the team accustomed to playing in blizzards to OT.