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Kirby Jackson

New Stadium Talk as of owner’s meetings

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All these posts show the pickle that the Pegulas are in.  No matter what they decide to do, they will upset about a third of the people who go to the games.  I think there are three things though that are clear.

 

1 ;   The stadium will be built downtown, and unfortunately, it has nothing to do with common sense or the game day experience.  There is simply more opportunities for public officials and union bosses and developers to get rich if the stadium is built down town.  Politicians accepting "campaign contributions" to sign off on the project, union bosses getting their kickbacks, bureaucrats getting an envelope of cash to waive that zoning requirement or environmental impact statement.  The businessmen who already own property down town will be working behind the scenes with the politicians they already own to make sure the stadium gets built there to increase the value of their assets. They will all be angling for a piece of the pie and more people will get a piece of the pie if the stadium is built downtown than if it is built out in the boonies of Erie County in Orchard Park.  There is going to be a billion dollars spent in Buffalo when this thing kicks off.  The biggest project in the history of Western New York.  It is a once in a life time opportunity for all these crooks and they are going to make sure they get as much of it as they can. The stadium is going downtown.  Book it.

 

2;  This thing will have a roof.  Please refer to the point above.  There is more money to be made on the stadium if it is a year round venue.  The state and city and county are not going to chip in hundreds of millions of dollars for a stadium that gets used a dozen times a year.  There isn't enough profit in it for them and everyone else with their hands in the till.  The Pegulas will be forced to put a roof on the stadium to get the public funds.  

 

3;  The teams HQ and practice facilities will stay in Orchard Park.  The Pegulas are quietly building some of the best facilities in the entire league in Orchard Park.  No sense in tearing it all down after throwing tens of millions of dollars into it.  More than that, it makes no sense to use expensive downtown real estate on weight rooms and training rooms, and cafeterias, and office space when they already have it on the cheap in Orchard Park.

 

 

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1. Things going on behind the scenes will probably make building it anywhere else almost impossible.

 

2.  It should have a roof.  Ideally a retractable one but that will only add to the expense.

 

3.  I agree.

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16 hours ago, eball said:

 

I'm just sayin', I would LOVE a downtown stadium with places to go before and after games.  I'm just at a different place in my life and mega-tailgating in a parking lot isn't as important any more.

 

Exactly how I feel!

I'm not "old" by any means either (I'm 32), but I prioritize an enjoyable & comfortable game experience way above stuff outside of the game these days.

If the stadium has good sight lines, decently comfortable seats, quality amenities, and a fun & friendly atmosphere I'll be thrilled. Tailgating is fine when it's done in a mature way, but too often people associate tailgating with "get as hammered as possible before kickoff, then act like nut job until I puke my guts out!" 

I think the team probably wants to limit the dangerous stuff going on & would like to promote a more family friendly environment. Hopefully tickets will still be mostly affordable, even with a new stadium. Can't imagine Bills ticket prices would ever shoot up past the bottom third of the league.

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6 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Is it doubtful to think that an NFL team (even in Buffalo) could get $7.5M a year in naming rights? That’s not aggressive (at all). 

 

$100M through PSLs isn’t that crazy either. 10,000 seats at $5k, 20,000 seats at $2,500 and you are there. Obviously those are averages but that is not a stretch at all. That’s especially true if they are paid off over 5 years.

 

These PSL numbers seem very achievable to me.  I'd take 2 seats at 2,500 per, as long as I can get between the 30 yard lines on the lower level and as long as ticket prices are reasonable.

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Just do what they did with the Jets/Giants stadium and build the new stadium right next to the old one.  Make the new stadium a dome though because I'm getting too damn old to roast in the sun in September or get soaked with rain in 34 degree weather to the point of misery in November/December.  I will miss the snow though.

 

14082042.jpg

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5 hours ago, Doc said:

1. Things going on behind the scenes will probably make building it anywhere else almost impossible.

 

2.  It should have a roof.  Ideally a retractable one but that will only add to the expense.

 

3.  I agree.

....here would be my reasonable choice.......

 

Lucas Oil Stadium is a multi-purpose stadium in Downtown Indianapolis, Indiana, United States. It replaced the RCA Dome as the home field of the NFL's Indianapolis Colts and opened on August 16, 2008 at a cost of $720 million ($860 million in 2019).[11] The stadium was constructed to allow the removal of the RCA Dome and expansion of the Indiana Convention Center on its site. The stadium is on the south side of South Street, a block south of the former site of the RCA Dome. In 2006, prior to the stadium's construction, Lucas Oil Products secured the naming rights for the stadium at a cost of $122 million over 20 years.[12] The venue also serves as the current home for the United Soccer League's Indy Eleven.

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17 hours ago, teef said:

i've never understood this.  want to avoid those people?  just buy club seats.  comfortable seats, quick beer lines, shorter lines for the bathroom and much cleaner.  it's easy to avoid the idiots.  sometimes you just have to dish out a bit more cash.  

 

What you say is true true to some extent.  However I think the NFL would rather remove as many idiots from the stadium as possible so more fans can have a better experience as opposed to just the fans in the club seats.

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21 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

My thoughts on this are pretty simple. Wherever it goes next is going to be a “business decision” not a fan experience decision. What is best for the government and best for the Pegulas are not necessarily the same. It will almost certainly be a public/private deal. The expression “split the difference” is a little ironic IMO. That’s how I see this thing playing out. 

 

The Pegulas want to maximize revenue and the government wants to minimize cost. My guess is 65,000 seats, downtown (somewhere), with a price tag in the $1B range. It will be split almost evenly between the state and the Bills. 

 

 

Good luck with that.  The political climate is its worst ever for convincing the public to pay for something this owner could purchase in cash out of pocket.

 

 

8 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

There is going to be a billion dollars spent in Buffalo when this thing kicks off.  The biggest project in the history of Western New York.  It is a once in a life time opportunity for all these crooks and they are going to make sure they get as much of it as they can. 

 

 

 

 

Say what?  You mean the biggest project in western NY.....other than the "Buffalo Billion"....where all the crooks got all the money?

 

 

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13 minutes ago, MacGyver said:

 

What you say is true true to some extent.  However I think the NFL would rather remove as many idiots from the stadium as possible so more fans can have a better experience as opposed to just the fans in the club seats.

oh sure, but there's always going to be an element of that.  if there's a game where alcohol is served, someone is bound to get out of control, no matter how much you minimize it.  that unfortunately applies to most public events.

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8 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

All these posts show the pickle that the Pegulas are in.  No matter what they decide to do, they will upset about a third of the people who go to the games.  I think there are three things though that are clear.

 

1 ;   The stadium will be built downtown, and unfortunately, it has nothing to do with common sense or the game day experience.  There is simply more opportunities for public officials and union bosses and developers to get rich if the stadium is built down town.  Politicians accepting "campaign contributions" to sign off on the project, union bosses getting their kickbacks, bureaucrats getting an envelope of cash to waive that zoning requirement or environmental impact statement.  The businessmen who already own property down town will be working behind the scenes with the politicians they already own to make sure the stadium gets built there to increase the value of their assets. They will all be angling for a piece of the pie and more people will get a piece of the pie if the stadium is built downtown than if it is built out in the boonies of Erie County in Orchard Park.  There is going to be a billion dollars spent in Buffalo when this thing kicks off.  The biggest project in the history of Western New York.  It is a once in a life time opportunity for all these crooks and they are going to make sure they get as much of it as they can. The stadium is going downtown.  Book it.

 

2;  This thing will have a roof.  Please refer to the point above.  There is more money to be made on the stadium if it is a year round venue.  The state and city and county are not going to chip in hundreds of millions of dollars for a stadium that gets used a dozen times a year.  There isn't enough profit in it for them and everyone else with their hands in the till.  The Pegulas will be forced to put a roof on the stadium to get the public funds.  

 

3;  The teams HQ and practice facilities will stay in Orchard Park.  The Pegulas are quietly building some of the best facilities in the entire league in Orchard Park.  No sense in tearing it all down after throwing tens of millions of dollars into it.  More than that, it makes no sense to use expensive downtown real estate on weight rooms and training rooms, and cafeterias, and office space when they already have it on the cheap in Orchard Park.

 

 

Quietly? It's been announced that the Pegulas the last two years have spent  $36 million on the faculties.

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10 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

I'm sorry to hear that you had a problem.    I lived downtown for five years and have worked in the CBD for 30-plus.  Walked to and from work, to and from parking ramps, many times late at night.   In all that time, I can only remember one mugging incident of someone I knew and just a handful of panhandlers.   

 

Crime is not an issue that has to be factored into a stadium location decision, IMO...

Crime is a real fact if your going to be going to a facility and have to go back  to your car in a isolated area due to lack of centralized parking. My friend and I went to a Bills vs Indy game. Walking in Indy, turned the corner, bam saw a stickup. Gun included. Sorry you are safer in Orchard Park than in Buffalo. No shooting in OP this year, Buffalo???

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10 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Please. Go do your 'better things', so we don't have to read your whining........

https://www.ibmadison.com/In-Business-Madison/August-2013/A-brief-history-of-Lambeau-Field-renovations/

 

Aug can dish it out, but he can't take it.........

Not all all, wrong again! That was the first time I had noticed the please don’t drink and derive, and as I said....I found it to be funny. You read too much into that, as it was exactly what it appeared to be. I even added the “really”, in case you weren’t sure. 

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16 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

When is the last time you tailgated?  Yes, there are sometimes drunken idiots doing drunken idiot things.  However, my experience is that there are far more sober people having fun and enjoying the experience.  I personally hate any idea that kills the tailgating scene.  

 

And nothing will prevent people from doing that at a new downtown stadium if they want.

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13 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

Money talks, etc........ I think the Pegulas will use the current facility for as long as it is practical. It is mostly outside forces driving the new stadium argument for the most part. I've stated that the old Bethlehem Steel site would be a great place for a new facility. The tailgate culture could be preserved, vs. a downtown stadium, which would change the fan experience in a negative way, IMO.

'Brownfield' tax credits could be used to rehab the Bethlehem plant, which I would think, could be had for a song, considering what might be bubbling beneath the surface of that site.

Otherwise, build next door. The Pegula's bought property adjacent to 'Rich' Stadium with that purpose in mind........

 

If you are considering Bethlehem steel site, then you may as well stay in OP.  There would need to be a hell of a lot more road access improvements to Lackawanna than to a downtown site, along with far fewer side benefits.

 

The choices are obvious - stay and upgrade NEF or build new near KeyBank

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1 hour ago, Hammered a Lot said:

Crime is a real fact if your going to be going to a facility and have to go back  to your car in a isolated area due to lack of centralized parking. My friend and I went to a Bills vs Indy game. Walking in Indy, turned the corner, bam saw a stickup. Gun included. Sorry you are safer in Orchard Park than in Buffalo. No shooting in OP this year, Buffalo???

 

Not to be argumentative, but there have been no shootings in the CBD during sporting events or concerts either (right, Sabres fans).   

 

I get your suburban angst and personal experiences elsewhere.   And to be truthful, OP is safer than the CITY of Buffalo.   But downtown around Canalside or any of the major event venues?     How about finding me some real (not imagined) data to back that up?     

 

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This is a big decision.  The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc).

 

 

Make good sight lines.  Seats close to the field.  Weaponize crowd noise.  Good fan experience for watching football.  Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals.  Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Good luck with that.  The political climate is its worst ever for convincing the public to pay for something this owner could purchase in cash out of pocket.

 

 

 

Say what?  You mean the biggest project in western NY.....other than the "Buffalo Billion"....where all the crooks got all the money?

 

 

I hear you but everyone else is doing it. It is not going to be something that the Pegulas pick up alone. There are so many new revenue streamson the horizon (marijuana, sports betting, etc..) that they can find their portion. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Is it doubtful to think that an NFL team (even in Buffalo) could get $7.5M a year in naming rights? That’s not aggressive (at all). 

 

$100M through PSLs isn’t that crazy either. 10,000 seats at $5k, 20,000 seats at $2,500 and you are there. Obviously those are averages but that is not a stretch at all. That’s especially true if they are paid off over 5 years.

PSL's, at least for my club seats, are paid every year, not paid off after a certain number of years. Currently, for this season, I'm paying about $800/seat. And that's for one of the cheapest sections in the clubs. 

Edited by Just Jack
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13 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

This is a big decision.  The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc).

 

 

Make good sight lines.  Seats close to the field.  Weaponize crowd noise.  Good fan experience for watching football.  Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals.  Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance  

 

 

There is the crux of the decision. If given truth serum, both the NFL (and the Pegulas) would say that revenue generation is the entire conversation. Fan experience goes into that but is a secondary factor. They will have the amenities that people want, assuming that they pay for them. It is about $$$

Just now, Just Jack said:

PSL's, at least for my club seats, are paid every year, not paid off after a certain number of years. Currently, for this season, I'm paying about $800/seat. 

Yep and I think that it will be similar moving forward (just require a longer commitment). Additionally, they probably won’t let people out of those contracts as easily. 

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28 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

Not to be argumentative, but there have been no shootings in the CBD during sporting events or concerts either (right, Sabres fans).   

 

I get your suburban angst and personal experiences elsewhere.   And to be truthful, OP is safer than the CITY of Buffalo.   But downtown around Canalside or any of the major event venues?     How about finding me some real (not imagined) data to back that up?     

 

Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year.

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4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

There is the crux of the decision. If given truth serum, both the NFL (and the Pegulas) would say that revenue generation is the entire conversation. Fan experience goes into that but is a secondary factor. They will have the amenities that people want, assuming that they pay for them. It is about $$$

 

Yep, but that’s the ONLY way they would say it publicly!     😋

 

Even emphasizing the fan’s game day experience is directly related to generating revenue, not just an altruistic endeavor. 

 

 

.

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21 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

This is a big decision.  The awful-ness of the hockey arena speaks volumes today as we are stuck with it (seat grade way too gradual and many seats are a mile away, bad sight lines... bubble roof is awful, etc).

 

 

Make good sight lines.  Seats close to the field.  Weaponize crowd noise.  Good fan experience for watching football.  Dont need too much attention paid to peripherals.  Some would be nice, but game experience is #1 through #100 in importance  

 

 

The sight lines in the 100 level of the arena drive me crazy.  I'd love to know from the design team, WTF they were thinking...especially coming from the Aud, where even the lower bowl was steep enough that you never had a problem seeing over the person in front of you.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year.

 

Well, I didn't want to go there.  But since you brought it up...

 

 

2 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

I'd love to know from the design team, WTF they were thinking...especially coming from the Aud, where even the lower bowl was steep enough that you never had a problem seeing over the person in front of you.

 

That has more to do with ADA building requirements than anything.   Can't design an "Aud" experience anymore.   It's just not up to current codes...

 

 

Edited by Lurker

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11 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Take his ramblings with a grain of salt. He is biased, as he is about to lose his parking revenue from 10 home games every year.

 

Wouldn't you be a bit biased also if you saw a good steady source of income disappearing in a few years? 

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3 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

Wouldn't you be a bit biased also if you saw a good steady source of income disappearing in a few years? 

Yep, Hammer has the most at stake for sure. He should feel like he does. We all would feel the EXACT same way.

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