Fumble vs Forward pass/incomplete

[PirateHookerMD]

Has anyone found an article/clarification on the fumble play? seemed pretty clear it was an incomplete pass. 

[klos63]

4 minutes ago, PirateHookerMD said:

Has anyone found an article/clarification on the fumble play? seemed pretty clear it was an incomplete pass. 

I think it was a missed call. Even the rules expert they had on the broadcast couldn't understand the call.

[VW82]

I think it should have been ruled a forward pass, but whatever it was Allen needs to stop doing it. He's tried that little volleyball set move a few times now and it looks like it's going to be a problem every time he does it. In a way I'm glad the refs ruled it as a fumble so the coaching staff has more ammo to convince Allen it's the wrong way to execute that play. 

[jletha]

That was a major blunder by the refs and Id bet their getting told they were wrong by the league. Every rules expert said that it was clearly a forward pass. Not sure how hte refs screwed that up honestly.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

2 minutes ago, klos63 said:

I think it was a missed call. Even the rules expert they had on the broadcast couldn't understand the call.

 

...now THERE IS a real shocker.....on the Matthews hit, Al "Useless" Riveron said it was the correct call....McAulay broke down the verbiage of the rule citing adjectives "unnecessary" and deliberate" as far as Matthews NOT pile driving...said it was a non-call.......yet 'ol Al was out in front with his "correct call" garbage........."rules" and "expert" in the same sentence is a quintessential oxy moron...

[Gugny]

Yeah, this one is pretty black and white.  The refs just blew it.

[PeterDude]

It was a good challenge by the coach, the ref's just !@#$ed it up.

[wiskibreth]

The only thing that I could possibly point to, is that it looked kinda like Allen sort of "dropped" it from his hands down to the runner instead of pushing it forward to him.  It was very close.  9/10 times that's an incomplete pass.

[Chandemonium]

7 minutes ago, jletha said:

That was a major blunder by the refs and Id bet their getting told they were wrong by the league. Every rules expert said that it was clearly a forward pass. Not sure how hte refs screwed that up honestly.

Since all reviews go through the league office, the time for the league to tell them the got it wrong would’ve been when McDermott challenged, but instead it was upheld. 

[Fadingpain]

10 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I think it should have been ruled a forward pass, but whatever it was Allen needs to stop doing it. He's tried that little volleyball set move a few times now and it looks like it's going to be a problem every time he does it. In a way I'm glad the refs ruled it as a fumble so the coaching staff has more ammo to convince Allen it's the wrong way to execute that play. 

Regardless of whether or not the call was missed, I totally agree with you.

Allen needs to stop doing that little move as it is a turnover waiting to happen.

 

 

[Haslett_Stomp]

There was a similar play in the Lions/Pats*** game last night and it was ruled an incomplete pass.

[LeGOATski]

How did they miss it on the replay? When they do a replay, aren't they discussing the rules with the replay official?

[Doc]

19 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I think it should have been ruled a forward pass, but whatever it was Allen needs to stop doing it. He's tried that little volleyball set move a few times now and it looks like it's going to be a problem every time he does it. In a way I'm glad the refs ruled it as a fumble so the coaching staff has more ammo to convince Allen it's the wrong way to execute that play. 

 

8 minutes ago, Fadingpain said:

Regardless of whether or not the call was missed, I totally agree with you.

Allen needs to stop doing that little move as it is a turnover waiting to happen.

 

Shovel passes are standard fare.  You don't stop doing it because the refs are idiots.

[Juice_32]

By the letter of the law definition, that was a forward pass. I do not understand how it's possible they missed it after review. It was a great challenge by coach. Thankfully it ended up working out.

[WhoTom]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

 

Shovel passes are standard fare.  You don't stop doing it because the refs are idiots.

 

Agreed, but in the future, they might want to increase the distance between Josh and the receiver so it's totally obvious, even without a replay, that the ball goes forward. With or without the bad call, it seems like that would be safer anyway.

[blacklabel]

27 minutes ago, VW82 said:

I think it should have been ruled a forward pass, but whatever it was Allen needs to stop doing it. He's tried that little volleyball set move a few times now and it looks like it's going to be a problem every time he does it. In a way I'm glad the refs ruled it as a fumble so the coaching staff has more ammo to convince Allen it's the wrong way to execute that play. 

 

What Allen is doing is how the play is designed. Marcus Murphy needs to time it better. He had already ran past Allen by the time Allen had the ball. He needs to be a couple steps back so the snap goes to Allen and then Allen pushes it to Murphy. They've dialed it up three times now and it worked the first time with Foster for a gain of 8 or something. The last two times it hasn't gone well.

[VW82]

8 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 

What Allen is doing is how the play is designed. Marcus Murphy needs to time it better. He had already ran past Allen by the time Allen had the ball. He needs to be a couple steps back so the snap goes to Allen and then Allen pushes it to Murphy. They've dialed it up three times now and it worked the first time with Foster for a gain of 8 or something. The last two times it hasn't gone well.

 

Well then it's a crappy play design because too much can go wrong trying to float the ball in mid air like that with a receiver running full tilt in between the center and QB as the ball is being snapped. There's just too little room to work with. Catch it and hand it off. Simple.

Edited September 24, 2018 by VW82

[PirateHookerMD]

My understanding is that the entire point of executing the play they did, was so in the very instance if the ball is dropped, that it counts as an incomplete pass.

 

I hope the Bills ask for clarification. 

[Captain_Quint]

Just now, PirateHookerMD said:

My understanding is that the entire point of executing the play they did, was so in the very instance if the ball is dropped, that it counts as an incomplete pass.

 

I hope the Bills ask for clarification. 

That's just it. It's a low risk play since any other time I've seen it not work, the refs run in blowing the whistle for an incomplete. Yesterday, even after taking another look, they said it was a fumble. Doesnt make much sense since there was clearly no 'hand off' to fumble when you slow it down and watch the replay. 

 

[billsfan1959]

1 hour ago, VW82 said:

I think it should have been ruled a forward pass, but whatever it was Allen needs to stop doing it. He's tried that little volleyball set move a few times now and it looks like it's going to be a problem every time he does it. In a way I'm glad the refs ruled it as a fumble so the coaching staff has more ammo to convince Allen it's the wrong way to execute that play. 

 

1 hour ago, Fadingpain said:

Regardless of whether or not the call was missed, I totally agree with you.

Allen needs to stop doing that little move as it is a turnover waiting to happen.

 

 

The failure of that play was all on Murphy

[machine gun kelly]

1 hour ago, VW82 said:

I think it should have been ruled a forward pass, but whatever it was Allen needs to stop doing it. He's tried that little volleyball set move a few times now and it looks like it's going to be a problem every time he does it. In a way I'm glad the refs ruled it as a fumble so the coaching staff has more ammo to convince Allen it's the wrong way to execute that play. 

 

 

They just need need to execute the exchange better in practice.  It’s no different than when I coached pop warner.  It takes time to get that exchange down.  Nevertheless, it was a crappy call.  Allen’s hand was moving forward.  It may have been sloppy, but a clear cut forward pass.

[Doc]

Any distance between the QB and receiver and the ball is moving forward and it's an incomplete forward pass.  The only reason not to do it is to take it out of the hands of the idiots refs, but if you do that on every play...

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

It was a paas

 

[BillnutinHouston]

2 hours ago, wiskibreth said:

The only thing that I could possibly point to, is that it looked kinda like Allen sort of "dropped" it from his hands down to the runner instead of pushing it forward to him.  It was very close.  9/10 times that's an incomplete pass.

 

I was saying that during the review (as a fan used to getting the short end of most calls).

 

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, jletha said:

That was a major blunder by the refs and Id bet their getting told they were wrong by the league. Every rules expert said that it was clearly a forward pass. Not sure how hte refs screwed that up honestly.

Yeah , it's pretty bizarre that they messed up such an easy and clear call.. ?

As someone said , looks like a flat out missed call..

[K-9]

2 hours ago, VW82 said:

I think it should have been ruled a forward pass, but whatever it was Allen needs to stop doing it. He's tried that little volleyball set move a few times now and it looks like it's going to be a problem every time he does it. In a way I'm glad the refs ruled it as a fumble so the coaching staff has more ammo to convince Allen it's the wrong way to execute that play. 

Worked pretty good last week vs. San Diego. 

[BillnutinHouston]

40 minutes ago, Doc said:

Any distance between the QB and receiver and the ball is moving forward and it's an incomplete forward pass.  

 

I disagree, it's not just about forward motion of the ball.  Posession is also required I believe.   Remember Matt Ryan's fumble vs. the Bills last year?

[Doc]

1 minute ago, BillnutinHouston said:

I disagree, it's not just about forward motion of the ball.  Posession is also required I believe.   Remember Matt Ryan's fumble vs. the Bills last year?

 

Or course, and that is implied.  He was in full control of the ball.  Ryan lost control and pushed the ball forwards.

[Rochesterfan]

2 hours ago, VW82 said:

I think it should have been ruled a forward pass, but whatever it was Allen needs to stop doing it. He's tried that little volleyball set move a few times now and it looks like it's going to be a problem every time he does it. In a way I'm glad the refs ruled it as a fumble so the coaching staff has more ammo to convince Allen it's the wrong way to execute that play. 

 

 

I disagree - the Refs messed up, but the play works and you have to shovel it to make it a pass and that is what makes it safe.  The timing must be perfect to get the full effect and that means just barely touching it and tossing it forward to the speeding receiver.

 

More practice will make it work and look better.

 

2 hours ago, Fadingpain said:

Regardless of whether or not the call was missed, I totally agree with you.

Allen needs to stop doing that little move as it is a turnover waiting to happen.

 

 

 

 

If the call was missed how is it a turn over waiting to happen?

 

The point of the catch and flip forward is to make it a pass so that it is not a turnover waiting to happen.  A handoff to the sprinting WR could be a fumble, but the shuttle pass protects the team.

2 hours ago, VW82 said:

 

Well then it's a crappy play design because too much can go wrong trying to float the ball in mid air like that with a receiver running full tilt in between the center and QB as the ball is being snapped. There's just too little room to work with. Catch it and hand it off. Simple.

 

The point is to avoid the handoff because a guy running full sprint trying to take a handoff is very easy to bounce of and that is a fumble.

 

The small flip forward makes it a pass and protects you from exactly what we saw in the game - the Refs just blew the call.  

 

Give them some more time and we will see how it looks, but I love the idea.

[klos63]

6 hours ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...now THERE IS a real shocker.....on the Matthews hit, Al "Useless" Riveron said it was the correct call....McAulay broke down the verbiage of the rule citing adjectives "unnecessary" and deliberate" as far as Matthews NOT pile driving...said it was a non-call.......yet 'ol Al was out in front with his "correct call" garbage........."rules" and "expert" in the same sentence is a quintessential oxy moron...

 

6 hours ago, VW82 said:

 

Well then it's a crappy play design because too much can go wrong trying to float the ball in mid air like that with a receiver running full tilt in between the center and QB as the ball is being snapped. There's just too little room to work with. Catch it and hand it off. Simple.

I think part of the logic behind the play design as to why they don't hand if off is that a mistake should be an incomplete pass and not a fumble. Most of the time.

[SoCal Deek]

Thanks for the discussion. I was at the game and arguing with a whole bunch of totally clueless Vikings fans. The Bills KNEW it was an incomplete pass because in their playbook that play is considered a passing play...NOT a running play!  I was super impressed that Josh knew it right away and told the red instantly.The NFL is a train wreck of rules.

 

By the way, twice during the game the head referee left his microphone on and almost blew out the stadium speaker system when he blew his whistle. Fans were pissed! He’ll get a horrible grade from the league Office.