Welcome back Ike Boettger

[Domdab99]

so how many CBs do we have now? 2, 3? 

[billsfan89]

3 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

Ryan Lewis was only here for a nanosecond so not surprised you haven't heard of him..

 

Bottiger was an UDFA who got a bit of praise during camp...

 

Another work in progress though so keep immeadiate expectations low...

 

At least Bottiger is a young player, I would rather toss him in than Vlad.

[purple haze]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

They should be starting Teller!

If Teller was better he would be.  Why do you think a coach would keep a better player on the bench?  How does that serve him/her?  

[TigerJ]

If it didn't sound so awkward, we should give him the nickname "Cotter."  Unfortunately "Cotter Boettger" just doesn't work.

Edited September 13, 2018 by TigerJ

[MrEpsYtown]

Would anyone be mad if Teller and Boettger were the new starters at guard? I wouldn't. 

 

I don't care how raw they are. Ducasse and the other guy simply cannot play. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by MrEpsYtown

[Hapless Bills Fan]

37 minutes ago, purple haze said:

If Teller was better he would be.  Why do you think a coach would keep a better player on the bench?  How does that serve him/her?  

 

The straight answer is it wouldn't of course.

 

The complicating factor is the question, how do you define 'better'?  Castillo (and presumably Daboll) are asking the linemen to execute specific schemes which seem to involve a lot of motion and to require specific techniques.  There may be linemen who are more physically talented as players, but less able to execute the specific schemes Castillo requires.  In which case, the coach would, in fact, be keeping a potentially better player on the bench because that player is worse for their scheme.

 

If that makes any sense at all.

[MrEpsYtown]

45 minutes ago, purple haze said:

If Teller was better he would be.  Why do you think a coach would keep a better player on the bench?  How does that serve him/her?  

 

That's pretty much what just happened with the quarterback and the stupid love for Tolbert and even Ramon Humber last year. All year it was clear Milano was better, yet they just kept sticking Humber in there. I'm not sure I understand what they are thinking in their evaluations. 

 

Im not sure if Teller or Boettger can do it. I do know that Vlad and Miller cannot. That has already been proven. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by MrEpsYtown

[billsgpr88]

5 hours ago, Heitz said:

Likes Med Wings, but what do we know about his dipping choice!?!?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXwakHd0UU0

[Buffalo Barbarian]

10 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

He should start immediately at RG

 

Now we Redmon and DeBeer back.

 

 

[Rochesterfan]

7 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

That's pretty much what just happened with the quarterback and the stupid love for Tolbert and even Ramon Humber last year. All year it was clear Milano was better, yet they just kept sticking Humber in there. I'm not sure I understand what they are thinking in their evaluations. 

 

Im not sure if Teller or Boettger can do it. I do know that Vlad and Miller cannot. That has already been proven. 

 

 

I think it has has to do with highs versus lows for specific players and consistency.

 

For example on the O-line - we have seen some signs that Teller was making some nice plays as Guard, but he also totally whiffed on some blocks.  In addition he struggled on some of the Combo blocks and getting into space.  So his high might be slightly higher at times his low is lower and worse is it is inconsistent.

 

You saw that with Milano last year - he was better on some plays, but Humber was more consistent early.  Once Humber got nicked up - Milano took over and played with some consistency and kept the job.

 

Honestly for all the hate - Vlad is not the issue on the o-line - I would not mind seeing if Teller could take over at LG and Vlad goes back to the right and Miller becomes a back-up.  I am hoping that Groy just had a bad game because he did not look good and there is not a solid plan for that position.

 

 

[stuvian]

Iowa linemen work out well. This has steadied my nerves going into the weekend

[MrEpsYtown]

40 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

 

I think it has has to do with highs versus lows for specific players and consistency.

 

For example on the O-line - we have seen some signs that Teller was making some nice plays as Guard, but he also totally whiffed on some blocks.  In addition he struggled on some of the Combo blocks and getting into space.  So his high might be slightly higher at times his low is lower and worse is it is inconsistent.

 

You saw that with Milano last year - he was better on some plays, but Humber was more consistent early.  Once Humber got nicked up - Milano took over and played with some consistency and kept the job.

 

Honestly for all the hate - Vlad is not the issue on the o-line - I would not mind seeing if Teller could take over at LG and Vlad goes back to the right and Miller becomes a back-up.  I am hoping that Groy just had a bad game because he did not look good and there is not a solid plan for that position.

 

 

 

Fair points all around. I do think Vlad looks terrible at LG and is probably better served on the right side. I do hope that what we saw was more a result of the Ravens front and exotic looks more than anything. Groy still seems unatural at center. To me he is a guard. I do hope that rotate Teller in here or there so he can get some experince and eventually take over for somebody.   

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

14 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Am I a bad fan because I’ve never heard of these guys?

 

I'm sure you're really not looking for an answer there

 

[SoCal Deek]

Put the kids in and let them play! If they’re  willing to do it with the QB, they should be willing to do it with Interior Linemen. We already KNOW that Vlad stinks. Give the kids a chance.

[purple haze]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The straight answer is it wouldn't of course.

 

The complicating factor is the question, how do you define 'better'?  Castillo (and presumably Daboll) are asking the linemen to execute specific schemes which seem to involve a lot of motion and to require specific techniques.  There may be linemen who are more physically talented as players, but less able to execute the specific schemes Castillo requires.  In which case, the coach would, in fact, be keeping a potentially better player on the bench because that player is worse for their scheme.

 

If that makes any sense at all.

The coaches know the scheme before the draft.  If they draft players who cannot execute that they are incompetent at their job.  Teller is a fifth round pick for a reason.  Perhaps he needs seasoning.  I would guess he flashes, but is too inconsistent in the practice setting.

[GG]

2 minutes ago, purple haze said:

The coaches know the scheme before the draft.  If they draft players who cannot execute that they are incompetent at their job.  Teller is a fifth round pick for a reason.  Perhaps he needs seasoning.  I would guess he flashes, but is too inconsistent in the practice setting.

 

People need to focus on the replays.  It's similar to last year when everyone was calling for Miller to start ahead of Ducasse, yet film proved that Miller player worse than Ducasse.

 

Sometimes there's a reason to the madness.

[purple haze]

13 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

That's pretty much what just happened with the quarterback and the stupid love for Tolbert and even Ramon Humber last year. All year it was clear Milano was better, yet they just kept sticking Humber in there. I'm not sure I understand what they are thinking in their evaluations. 

 

Im not sure if Teller or Boettger can do it. I do know that Vlad and Miller cannot. That has already been proven. 

You focus on parts of games or preseason games.  Practice is where players earn the coaches trust.  Milano flashed in games.  I would bet money he entered the starting lineup when he consistently outshone Humber in practice.

 

Cadet had started to get more run than Tolbert before he got injured. The basis of that probably began in the practice setting.

 

 

11 minutes ago, GG said:

 

People need to focus on the replays.  It's similar to last year when everyone was calling for Miller to start ahead of Ducasse, yet film proved that Miller player worse than Ducasse.

 

Sometimes there's a reason to the madness.

Yep.  Once people get fixated on a player it's hard to readjust their thinking.  Sunday Groy and Miller were the worst, yet i keep hearing about Ducasse, and even Mills.  ??‍♂️

 

Ducasse and Mills have bad moments but it's not always them.  Both have gone games when they were decent/good.  That said, they would be perfect swing backups.

Edited September 13, 2018 by purple haze

[CLTbills]

Can he start this Sunday?

[YoloinOhio]

28 minutes ago, GG said:

 

People need to focus on the replays.  It's similar to last year when everyone was calling for Miller to start ahead of Ducasse, yet film proved that Miller player worse than Ducasse.

 

Sometimes there's a reason to the madness.

This is true. I’m not saying Ducasse is good. But I don’t know why some think Miller is better.

[LSHMEAB]

Teller's got a little givafuq about his game.

 

I liked the pick when it was made and quite frankly, WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE?

 

He's a rookie fifth round guard and certainly not going to change the world, but there's no reason to continue to trot out PROVEN turnstiles.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, purple haze said:

The coaches know the scheme before the draft.  If they draft players who cannot execute that they are incompetent at their job.  Teller is a fifth round pick for a reason.  Perhaps he needs seasoning.  I would guess he flashes, but is too inconsistent in the practice setting.

 

I suppose I was more thinking of Miller, who garnered “most improved” guard his 2nd year with Kromer, but lived on the bench last season.  Once again it seems like coaching which can’t take advantage of players with different skills

 

I “get it” that Kromer wants guys who have the skills he wants for his scheme, but his buddy Ducasse can’t seem to do it either-and the FA guys they brought in kind of suck

[purple haze]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I suppose I was more thinking of Miller, who garnered “most improved” guard his 2nd year with Kromer, but lived on the bench last season.  Once again it seems like coaching which can’t take advantage of players with different skills

 

I “get it” that Kromer wants guys who have the skills he wants for his scheme, but his buddy Ducasse can’t seem to do it either-and the FA guys they brought in kind of suck

I hear you but I would contend most players are system guys.  Like Gaines last year was good in zone but most of the league would not want him in a press and run scheme.  Yet he's a good player.

 

The  players who defy systems are the HOF or All Pro level players and they are few in number compared to the rest.  Every team is chasing after them which is why athletic "traits" seem to take precedence at draft time.  Allen wasn't the best QB compared to others, but that arm can do things that beats even the best game plans.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, purple haze said:

 

 

Yep.  Once people get fixated on a player it's hard to readjust their thinking.  Sunday Groy and Miller were the worst, yet i keep hearing about Ducasse, and even Mills.  ??‍♂️

 

Ducasse and Mills have bad moments but it's not always them.  Both have gone games when they were decent/good.  That said, they would be perfect swing backups.

 

You are right, they are backup type players.  Problem is the whole line (with maybe the exception of Dawkins) are backups.

Groy has only started a couple of handfuls of games at both C and G.  No way to know if he can get better or he is near his ceiling.

Miller is not showing anything.

There is no interior "anchor" on this line and until the Bills find one defenses will exploit them.

 

Wait until next year when the Bills try to resign Mills in FA, this board will go crazy.

 

[ricojes]

19 hours ago, NewEra said:

Would anyone be upset if we cut Philip Gaines?  When I saw this thread I immediately hoped that we had cut him in order to pickup Boettger 

Yes, any opposing receiving core the Bills face will be upset...

[purple haze]

6 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

You are right, they are backup type players.  Problem is the whole line (with maybe the exception of Dawkins) are backups.

Groy has only started a couple of handfuls of games at both C and G.  No way to know if he can get better or he is near his ceiling.

Miller is not showing anything.

There is no interior "anchor" on this line and until the Bills find one defenses will exploit them.

 

Wait until next year when the Bills try to resign Mills in FA, this board will go crazy.

 

I wouldn't mind Mills back as long as the Bills bring in legit starting caliber players through the draft and Free Agency to compete.  

[ColoradoBills]

7 minutes ago, purple haze said:

I wouldn't mind Mills back as long as the Bills bring in legit starting caliber players through the draft and Free Agency to compete.  

 

Yep.  Thing is Mills may want to leave no matter what the Bills want to do.

[C.Biscuit97]

48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I suppose I was more thinking of Miller, who garnered “most improved” guard his 2nd year with Kromer, but lived on the bench last season.  Once again it seems like coaching which can’t take advantage of players with different skills

 

I “get it” that Kromer wants guys who have the skills he wants for his scheme, but his buddy Ducasse can’t seem to do it either-and the FA guys they brought in kind of suck

Sometimes I think coaching is a bit overrated.  Ultimately talent wins.  I do think o line coaches seem to make a difference more than other positions.

[YoloinOhio]

20 hours ago, NewEra said:

Would anyone be upset if we cut Philip Gaines?  When I saw this thread I immediately hoped that we had cut him in order to pickup Boettger 

From the All-22 linked in this thread:

Cornerback Tre'Davious White was outstanding against the Ravens and didn't give Joe Flacco anything all game long. And hey, even Phillip Gaines played relatively well. Yes, I'm shocked, too. He gave up one big reception on a flag route and then had a touchdown caught over his head, but the rest of the time he was reasonably stable in coverage and a sound tackler. He wasn't at Shareece Wright levels or anything like that.

[I'm Spartacus]

19 hours ago, Mark Vader said:

Great Googly Moogly!

I injured the fur trapper....

[NewEra]

16 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

From the All-22 linked in this thread:

 

 

Thx for the info.  Good to hear i suppose.  Just seems like every 3rd down they targeted his side of the field. Maybe not his section of the zone but always in his vicinity.  That soft spot in the zone above the nickel and below the safety outside of the hashes.  

 

i believe McD knows how to coach a good d but it’s so frustrating watching that 3rd down after 3rd down being completed to that spot in the zone while we rush 4 guys and get zero pressure.  If we get the number one pick I’d really like to land Ed Oliver.  Adding that dominating interior pass rush changes the entire defense.  Our pass rush is so bad

Edited September 13, 2018 by NewEra

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, purple haze said:

I hear you but I would contend most players are system guys.  Like Gaines last year was good in zone but most of the league would not want him in a press and run scheme.  Yet he's a good player.

 

The  players who defy systems are the HOF or All Pro level players and they are few in number compared to the rest.  Every team is chasing after them which is why athletic "traits" seem to take precedence at draft time.  Allen wasn't the best QB compared to others, but that arm can do things that beats even the best game plans.

 

Valid.

 

I'm thinking though, of Wade Phillips saying to the effect "if you have a good player, but he doesn't fit in your system, maybe the problem is your system".

Now many a coach pays lip service to that concept, but I'm thinking that the coaches who actually live it, are the ones who are ultimately most successful.

[purple haze]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Valid.

 

I'm thinking though, of Wade Phillips saying to the effect "if you have a good player, but he doesn't fit in your system, maybe the problem is your system".

Now many a coach pays lip service to that concept, but I'm thinking that the coaches who actually live it, are the ones who are ultimately most successful.

Wade makes a good point.  I think a lot of coaches adjust to a degree; for instance, last season the run game changed when the Bills went back to more power focused runs.  That worked for what the line did better and Shady being a system defying player it worked.   I think a lot of coaches adjust plays, schemes, but there's only so much they can do.

 

they want to play a certain way and will keep bringing in players who can execute their vision.  Players who they find cannot will be weeded out.

Edited September 13, 2018 by purple haze

[BuffaloRebound]

If I were an interior Offensive Lineman hitting  free agency next year, I’d be licking my chops.  Bills will be handing out blank checks.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, purple haze said:

Wade makes a good point.  I think a lot of coaches adjust to a degree; for instance, last season the run game changed when the Bills went back to more power focused runs.  That worked for what the line did better and Shady being a system defying player it worked.   I think a lot of coaches adjust plays, schemes, but there's only so much they can do.

 

they want to play a certain way and will keep bringing in players who can execute their vision.  Players who they find cannot will be weeded out.

 

I get that, but I suppose overall, I wonder if it can ever be a long-term successful NFL philosophy. 

 

Let's say you're drafting at a specific slot.  There's a hierarchy:

1. -most talented player at that slot

2.       -most talented player at that slot at a position you need

3.                -most talented player at that slot at a position you need, who can play well in the specific scheme or with the specific subset of skills you need

 

Complicating the issue may be that limitations in specific college offenses and defenses may make it harder to distinguish 2. from 3.

 

It certainly seems like a significant organizational talent advantage if you can roll with 1 or 2 and not worry about 3 so much

 

[frogger]

So is Davis going to suit up? 

[purple haze]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I get that, but I suppose overall, I wonder if it can ever be a long-term successful NFL philosophy. 

 

Let's say you're drafting at a specific slot.  There's a hierarchy:

1. -most talented player at that slot

2.       -most talented player at that slot at a position you need

3.                -most talented player at that slot at a position you need, who can play well in the specific scheme or with the specific subset of skills you need

 

Complicating the issue may be that limitations in specific college offenses and defenses may make it harder to distinguish 2. from 3.

 

It certainly seems like a significant organizational talent advantage if you can roll with 1 or 2 and not worry about 3 so much

 

Good point.  But with so much pressure  I think coaches want things their way.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

45 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Good point.  But with so much pressure  I think coaches want things their way.

 

On the one hand .... yeah, I get it

On the other hand.....if you get more good players and use them to their best advantage....maybe better performance and less pressure?

[oldmanfan]

Can Ike come out and play?  And bring his friend Wyatt?

[YoloinOhio]

2 hours ago, frogger said:

So is Davis going to suit up? 

I’m not sure they have a choice with Taron Johnson hurt 

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Valid.

 

I'm thinking though, of Wade Phillips saying to the effect "if you have a good player, but he doesn't fit in your system, maybe the problem is your system".

Now many a coach pays lip service to that concept, but I'm thinking that the coaches who actually live it, are the ones who are ultimately most successful.

Well, when Wade Phillips is setting the bar...
BTW i hold him in very very high regard : )