Offensive Line - Any Chance it Holds Up?

[Aussie Joe]

34 minutes ago, Jasovon said:

Look at our secondary last year, seen by pundits as the worst in football. We will be fine because our coaching is strong now. 

 

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2017/09/buffalo_bills_secondary_among_nfls_worst_defensive_positional_units_says_espn.html

 

These talking heads have no idea about talent evaluation.

 

If Bodine and Newhouse end up being as good as Hyde and Poyer I will swim from Manly to Circular Quay..

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I believe coaching trumps talent.   I think that good schemes and good coaching can make the relative no-name offensive line the Bills have effective.  Whether they have that coaching is an open question.

 

However, even if they're well coached, they will struggle when they play against the the best front sevens in the league.   For example, I'm going to the game in Houston.   That may get ugly real quick. 

 

I think on the o-line this is pretty much right. I don't think we have any terrible players there but we don't have a single "established" NFL performer.  Dawkins had a good rookie year, Bodine has been a starter but a below average one in Cincy, Mills has been a starter but a below average one here and then Miller and Ducasse whose careers have been inconsistent.  Then Groy who has been a good short term stand in and Teller who is a rookie. There is no "oh my god he is terrible there" but equally a lot of question marks.  

[oldmanfan]

Definite question marks but it's the NFL.  Young guys are expected to step up.

 

Groy looked good when he subbed in for Wood.  Ducasse actually was pretty good the latter part of last season.  Get a Miller or someone to take Richie's spot and then see.

 

Some have indicated they play some tough front 7s.  Those teams wreak havoc on all O lines.

[eball]

13 hours ago, ddaryl said:

not concerned till I see a reason to be concerned.. Will know by the end of preseason until then nobody cold possibly answer this question

 

I basically agree.  I mean, there will certainly be signs of either competence or disaster during TC but you really need live game action to assess the situation.

 

Also -- suggesting the Bills' OL was a "strength" last season is dubious at best.  They may actually be better this year -- remember, there's a new scheme that may be better suited to their (lack of) talent.   

[GunnerBill]

My biggest worry is Juan Castillo.  I don't think he is a good coach.  

[ALF]

So far in mini camp they have Miller at LG , Groy at C , Vlad at RG , and Mills at  RT , of course Dion at LT. 

I hope Miller can hold down LG till Teller is ready at LG or RG

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, ALF said:

So far in mini camp they have Miller at LG , Groy at C , Vlad at RG , and Mills at  RT , of course Dion at LT. 

I hope Miller can hold down LG till Teller is ready at LG or RG

 

I thought Ducasse had been LG and Miller RG?

[ALF]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I thought Ducasse had been LG and Miller RG?

 

I might be wrong , I thought I heard that from the recent Murph show. They want the least disruption as possible from last year .

[Buffalo_Stampede]

OL play is so much about the group and less about individuals. If they know who they are blocking and are being put in situations to make easy blocks they typically can get the job done as a unit. Knowing who to block IMO comes down to the QB. There is so much more involved in a sack or QB pressure than just getting physically beat.

 

 

6 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

I might be wrong , I thought I heard that from the recent Murph show. They want the least disruption as possible from last year .

Starting interior has been Ducasse - Groy/Bodine - Miller

 

Honestly its all about replacing Incognito. Dawkins should be fine. Miller has had a great offseason. Mills has been the starter. Groy has been groomed for a starting job.

 

Ducasse wasn't terrible last year, but he is no Incognito, especially in the run game.

[richardb1952]

Groy is a FA after this year, played well when given the opportunity and has a full off-season to prepare as a regular starter.  I believe Miller will rebound this year with a different scheme.  Mills is Mills.  Maybe he can improve this year.  Dawkins hopefully can improve off an impressive rookie season.  Replacing Incognito will be tough as he brought some nastiness to the group and was pretty good pulling.  I think this line can be mediocre at least, it will just take time for them to jell as a unit.  Screen passes, Play action, and receivers getting separation would really be help this unit be respectable.  Lets hope coaching and scheme can improve a general lack of talent. 

[BuffaloBaumer]

I wonder if there is any chance in hell to get Richie to come back for 1 last year...

[bobobonators]

To me OL is the weakest link in the entire team, way worse than WR. 

 

What happens if Dawkins misses games with an injury? Arguably the worst line in the NFL

[Shaw66]

12 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

I wonder if there is any chance in hell to get Richie to come back for 1 last year...

I think they've moved on from Richie.  They're building for the future and Richie is the past.  That's why they cut his pay.

 

Richie is anteammplayer, but I think there's more "I" in him that McD likes.  Richie and Kyle both are individuals, but Kyle is selfless.  Richie isn't. That's why Kyle is back and Richie isn't. 

2 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

To me OL is the weakest link in the entire team, way worse than WR. 

 

What happens if Dawkins misses games with an injury? Arguably the worst line in the NFL

On paper, yes. I think they will surprise you.  They won't play like the worst. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

40 minutes ago, BuffaloBaumer said:

I wonder if there is any chance in hell to get Richie to come back for 1 last year...

 

If he gets 0 interest from other teams, there might be interest on Richie's part, but I'm pretty sure the Bills have moved on. 

 

I think the primary thing McDermott wants in a player is reliability. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, Aussie Joe said:

If Bodine and Newhouse end up being as good as Hyde and Poyer I will swim from Manly to Circular Quay..

 

Hmmmmm.  Let's hear you put it out there what you mean by "as good as" (since different positions) and by what criteria.

I'd also like to know your distance swimming chops - that's what, 17 km?

 

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

Biggest issue IMO isn't the talent, it's the lack of continuity. Wood, Incognito and Glenn (to a lesser extent), and even Miller and Mills, had many games under their belt, playing next to each other. That's an important factor in how well a line plays, because each guy is in tune with the guy next to him, and what they do well and don't do well. It's about chemistry, and it's something that can only be replicated through time and experience. This year, with a few new faces taking over starting positions, it will take some time for guys to gel, and build chemistry with the players next to them.

 

Also, our QBs are young and inexperienced, and calling out adjusted protections at the line is a factor that gets overlooked when we "judge" the offensive line. 

 

Basically what I'm saying is, I believe the line will be fine, but will likely be shaky and inconsistent early on, and aside from the QB position, could be the major reason why the Bills take a bit of a step back this year, record wise. I don't see a 2-4 win team, like some "pundits" have said, but a 6-8 win team. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I've accepted the idea of a "down" year, compared to a team that essentially overachieved and ended the drought. I believe the defense will keep them in games, but this year will be more about building a foundation on offense with a new OC, and players gaining valuable experience that will prove to be imperative to success in the upcoming seasons.

 

Also, I think Ducasse is still being unfairly criticized by some people. He was pretty good last year, especially later in the season. I believe he was a top 30(?) rated guard in the league last year (by PFF's metrics FWIW). 

 

Not sure how he'll look with more down blocking than last year, and switching from RG to LG, but I think we should wait and see.

Edited June 14, 2018 by Drunken Pygmy Goat

[Shaw66]

28 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

I think the primary thing McDermott wants in a player is reliability. 

I agree about this.  

 

People talk about what McDermott means when he talks about the process and about character.  We've seen it for a year now, and it's pretty clear.  

 

McD wants guys who are 100% team oriented.  He wants guys who will compete until they drop.  He wants guys ho don't have personal issues. He wants guys who will commit to the process.  

 

He believes that his TEAM will be better than a team with more talent, if his roster is full of those guys and the other team's roster isn't. Ideally his players have those qualities AND have talent, but if he has to choose, he'll take character first.  

 

Listen to what McBeane said about Allen and Edmunds.  Character, character, character.  Oh, yeah, and premier physical abilities.  But character came first. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

11 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

Biggest issue IMO isn't the talent, it's the lack of continuity. Wood, Incognito and Glenn (to a lesser extent), and even Miller and Mills, had many games under their belt, playing next to each other. That's an important factor in how well a line plays, because each guy is in tune with the guy next to him, and what they do well and don't do well. It's about chemistry, and it's something that can only be replicated through time and experience. This year, with a few new faces taking over starting positions, it will take some time for guys to gel, and build chemistry with the players next to them.

 

Also, our QBs are young and inexperienced, and calling out adjusted protections at the line is a factor that gets overlooked when we "judge" the offensive line. 

 

Basically what I'm saying is, I believe the line will be fine, but will likely be shaky and inconsistent early on, and aside from the QB position, could be the major reason why the Bills take a bit of a step back this year, record wise. I don't see a 2-4 win team, like some "pundits" have said, but a 6-8 win team. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I've accepted the idea of a "down" year, compared to a team that essentially overachieved and ended the drought. I believe the defense will keep them in games, but this year will be more about building a foundation on offense with a new OC, and players gaining valuable experience that will prove to be imperative to success in the upcoming seasons.

 

Also, I think Ducasse is still being unfairly criticized by some people. He was pretty good last year, especially later in the season. I believe he was a top 30(?) rated guard in the league last year (by PFF's metrics FWIW). 

 

Not sure how he'll look with more down blocking than last year, and switching from RG to LG, but I think we should wait and see.

Continuity only matters with system. The Raiders are a perfect example, last years Bills also to a lesser extent. The Raiders had what was considered the best OL in football, or at least top 3. They changed the system and couldn't block anyone. 

 

We really won't know how good or bad they are as a unit until they play. There aren't any 1st round picks, but so on paper it looks weak, but hopefully the coaches and QB will put them in situations to succeed. 

[Shaw66]

17 minutes ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

Biggest issue IMO isn't the talent, it's the lack of continuity. Wood, Incognito and Glenn (to a lesser extent), and even Miller and Mills, had many games under their belt, playing next to each other. That's an important factor in how well a line plays, because each guy is in tune with the guy next to him, and what they do well and don't do well. It's about chemistry, and it's something that can only be replicated through time and experience. This year, with a few new faces taking over starting positions, it will take some time for guys to gel, and build chemistry with the players next to them.

 

Also, our QBs are young and inexperienced, and calling out adjusted protections at the line is a factor that gets overlooked when we "judge" the offensive line. 

 

Basically what I'm saying is, I believe the line will be fine, but will likely be shaky and inconsistent early on, and aside from the QB position, could be the major reason why the Bills take a bit of a step back this year, record wise. I don't see a 2-4 win team, like some "pundits" have said, but a 6-8 win team. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I've accepted the idea of a "down" year, compared to a team that essentially overachieved and ended the drought. I believe the defense will keep them in games, but this year will be more about building a foundation on offense with a new OC, and players gaining valuable experience that will prove to be imperative to success in the upcoming seasons.

 

Also, I think Ducasse is still being unfairly criticized by some people. He was pretty good last year, especially later in the season. I believe he was a top 30(?) rated guard in the league last year (by PFF's metrics FWIW). 

 

Not sure how he'll look with more down blocking than last year, and switching from RG to LG, but I think we should wait and see.

Solid analysis. Thanks. 

[dollars 2 donuts]

17 hours ago, Soda Popinski said:

Dawkins played well enough last year, but then again he had a pro bowl LG by him.  This year he's got to be the veteran bringing other guys up.   Miller I expect to step in and take a guard spot and wherever he plays we should not see a dropoff at that position, so that's two positions i don't expect a decline in.    Whether Groy or Bodine at center IDK, I liked Groy when he subbed in for Wood, Bodine was about as highly touted as Mills was coming here. same with Newhouse.  

 

If they start Vlad, I don't expect him to be anything more than barely competent.   Same with Mills at RT.  

 

So 2 positions I feel good about the other 3 not so much.    

 

 

Ya know, Soda, every time I want to feel good about Vlad I remember back to the video that I have seen where he just gets blown up.  

 

I would love better than him, but yes if he can barely compete or just plain hold his own I would be fine with that.

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

Ya know, Soda, every time I want to feel good about Vlad I remember back to the video that I have seen where he just gets blown up.  

 

I would love better than him, but yes if he can barely compete or just plain hold his own I would be fine with that.

Two positions that next year's 80 million in cap space in addition to all our draft picks should remedy.   This overhaul wasn't going to be complete in 1 year.   We still need WRs/OL/LB help and I imagine we'll need TE and DE and probably RB too.  

 

The roster is never finished, but we're getting closer. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The offensive line being a weakness may actually work in the bills favor for the first week or 2

With a new offense being installed other teams won't know what to game plan for so they will attack the glaring weakness. This should give the bills an advantage in knowing what the opposing defense is going to do and that defense wont have a clue as to how the bills will play

 

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, Cheektowaga Chad said:

The offensive line being a weakness may actually work in the bills favor for the first week or 2

With a new offense being installed other teams won't know what to game plan for so they will attack the glaring weakness. This should give the bills an advantage in knowing what the opposing defense is going to do and that defense wont have a clue as to how the bills will play

 

Still hoping for a training camp cut or salary cap casualty to be added in August.  

[dollars 2 donuts]

1 minute ago, Soda Popinski said:

Two positions that next year's 80 million in cap space in addition to all our draft picks should remedy.   This overhaul wasn't going to be complete in 1 year.   We still need WRs/OL/LB help and I imagine we'll need TE and DE and probably RB too.  

 

The roster is never finished, but we're getting closer. 

 

 

I disagree with absolutely nothing you said!

 

I know we are looking at choppy waters in our near future, but man, the way this team is being built and then watching them fill some of the holes this year and having a number of options next year makes me feel more optimistic than any other time in the last 18 years. 

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

I disagree with absolutely nothing you said!

 

I know we are looking at choppy waters in our near future, but man, the way this team is being built and then watching them fill some of the holes this year and having a number of options next year makes me feel more optimistic than any other time in the last 18 years. 

That's one reason even if Allen doesn't pan out I want Beane and McD running the ship for the foreseeable future.  The team is being built for long term success we're not sitting around waiting for a QB to develop.    We're not swinging for the fences looking for elite level WRs or DEs who sell tickets and jerseys.    You can tell every position has a dollar amount assigned to it based on overall value to winning and they will stick to it.   That's the only way to build a team.  

 

And our secondary is flat out sick.   

[dollars 2 donuts]

2 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

That's one reason even if Allen doesn't pan out I want Beane and McD running the ship for the foreseeable future.  The team is being built for long term success we're not sitting around waiting for a QB to develop.    We're not swinging for the fences looking for elite level WRs or DEs who sell tickets and jerseys.    You can tell every position has a dollar amount assigned to it based on overall value to winning and they will stick to it.   That's the only way to build a team.  

 

And our secondary is flat out sick.   

 

 

On top of every thing that you said, Soda, this is all happening in the years that Tom Brady is turning 41 and 42...I'll take that!

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

 

On top of every thing that you said, Soda, this is all happening in the years that Tom Brady is turning 41 and 42...I'll take that!

I want Kyle to sack him just a few more times to end his career.    Not career ending injuries, I just want some of his last memories of football to be of him looking up at Kyle, who T bags him as he stands up.

[Royale with Cheese]

17 hours ago, Logic said:

I also will be at the Houston game. Not sure how to feel about the prospect of Clowney/Watt vs our offensive line. On the other hand, I like the chances of our defense stopping Watson's offense.

 

Don't forget Mercilus.

[JPP]

Im hopeful it does.....it remains to be seen but dabol IMO is an improvement over Dennison so could be......as bad as our Oline was last season i believe in the last 4-5 games they showed significant improvement!  So there's hope here....some of the repeat offenders have yet another year under belt so lets see....

[Wsam4031]

I think they should be fine. Dawkis is solid at LT I think Miller steps it back up and I actually think Teller takes the other G position. Groy at Center and hopefully anyone but Mills at RT. I honestly think we will be just fine

[K-9]

18 hours ago, FappyTheClown said:

Packers fan I see. Nice. 

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

17 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Like sports fans in most cities in all major sports, if they know anything at all about that sport, they are probably wrong.

And then they give them a radio show!

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Soda Popinski said:

Still hoping for a training camp cut or salary cap casualty to be added in August.  

 

So do I.  A veteran depth swing tackle would be nice.  I'm hoping like the rest that 1 or 2 of the young guys prove to be capable but................

If Miller and/or Groy are looking good I would like to see at least 1 get a contract before next FA season.

Bill's veteran OL under contract for next year are:

 

Dawkins

Bodine

Vlad

 

that's it.

[Soda Popinski]

Just now, ColoradoBills said:

 

So do I.  A veteran depth swing tackle would be nice.  I'm hoping like the rest that 1 or 2 of the young guys prove to be capable but................

If Miller and/or Groy are looking good I would like to see at least 1 get a contract before next FA season.

Bill's veteran OL under contract for next year are:

 

Dawkins

Bodine

Vlad

 

that's it.

Eesh.   We gave Vlad a multiple year deal?   Good lord why? 

[ColoradoBills]

8 minutes ago, Soda Popinski said:

Eesh.   We gave Vlad a multiple year deal?   Good lord why? 

 

Castillo knew him for years in Baltimore.  Vlad signed a relatively cheap 3 year deal with the Bill's.

Both Vlad and Bodine's contracts run out next year.

[Drunken Pygmy Goat]

2 hours ago, TheTruthHurts said:

Continuity only matters with system. The Raiders are a perfect example, last years Bills also to a lesser extent. The Raiders had what was considered the best OL in football, or at least top 3. They changed the system and couldn't block anyone. 

 

We really won't know how good or bad they are as a unit until they play. There aren't any 1st round picks, but so on paper it looks weak, but hopefully the coaches and QB will put them in situations to succeed. 

 

Good point about systems, in relation to continuity, although I don't think that's where it only matters. Maybe "continuity" was the wrong word for me to use, or is too vague.

 

IMO, there's some value in familiarity with the players next to you, with any unit of a team (but especially on the lines). Knowing certain tendencies, and strengths and weaknesses of those players has to have some type of effect on how you play, in your approach, regardless of scheme. 

 

As far as how good or bad they'll be, you're right. We're all just guessing really at this point. There's so many question marks on offense this year that we cannot say anything with any certainty. But looking at things logically, it's probably safe to say or expect that there will be some noticeable growing pains in a few areas. Personally, I don't think WR Will be as big an issue as it looks to be on paper, but we'll see. Of course, their play is dependent on the QB and offensive line, and while the WR group certainly is not loaded with top talent, I think the players we have will be fine for this offense.

[FappyTheClown]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

Packers fan I see. Nice. 

 

 

[BigDingus]

Offensive line always suffers injuries as it is, and last year our reserves didn't play very well as a whole. Some like Ducasse & Groy (IMO) played downright miserable, and now they're starters.

Our line already regressed substantially last year, but still managed to at least hold up enough to have a decent, not "good," run game. This year it's worse, so definitely expecting setbacks, especially when injuries take their toll.

[billsredneck1]

50 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

Offensive line always suffers injuries as it is, and last year our reserves didn't play very well as a whole. Some like Ducasse & Groy (IMO) played downright miserable, and now they're starters.

Our line already regressed substantially last year, but still managed to at least hold up enough to have a decent, not "good," run game. This year it's worse, so definitely expecting setbacks, especially when injuries take their toll.

Don't forget they won't have to pass pro for 6 seconds. We will be okay.

[T master]

I believe the Bills aren't in as bad of a place as every one (or at least the "Football Experts") think when it comes to the O line !

 

Sure E Wood & Ritchie are definitely a loss but Groy did a great job when Wood went down a couple yrs back & John Miller seems to be back to being motivated plus who they picked up in the draft  & after i think we could actually be a bit better .

 

Especially if they put W.Teller at RT & get rid of Mills or use him as a depth player & maybe the undrafted guy from Denmark can take Vlads place at LG . And then there is Bodine too ...

 

I think by the time the season roles around they will have it figured out ...

Edited June 15, 2018 by T master