Tyrod Taylor turning heads in Cleveland.

[Foxx]

10 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

We obviously did this to score points so when Allen puts up 24 plus ppg two seasons in a row I'll call the whole thing a success.  That seems fair enough.  I've even hoping he does.  I'm just being honest saying that there is a huge risk involved.  I think that is also fair.

i think perhaps you are confusing ppg and qb production. sure there is a corellation but you simply cannot say that Tyrod was the reason we scored 24  ppg. ranking 28th in the most qb centric stat there is, is more indicative of what you have there. not to mention just simply watching him and pleading with him to just throw the damn football. thank goodness those days are now someone else's problem.

 

i don't know that i would say there is a huge risk involved. the greater risk imo, is the dreaded medocrity that we have lived the last 17 years.

 

swing at the pitch.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Foxx

[Albwan]

we should impeach allen change all the rules and make cleveland give him back to us

What do you say gais LETS DO IT!!!

[buffaloaggie]

Just now, Maine-iac said:

No and neither do you.  Statistically  he faced worse down and distance than most QB's and still produced.  That is a fact.  I'm not arguing about this all day.  It's water under the bridge.  I'm also not drinking the kool aid.  We brought a new guy in who's been labeled by pro scouts a big armed project and he's being teamed up with a decimated OL and an OC with a less than stellar track record.  It's not hard to imagine things going bad.

Saw it all the time. That's most fan's biggest frustration with Taylor, along with taking sacks. The subject of this discussion is Tyrod Taylor supposedly turning heads. Not Allen and our O-Line. Tyrod can get a team so far, but if a team needs to win based on his passing ability, that team will likely come up on the short end. Does anyone have stats on how many times we ran for a first down vs passing for it? All I know is I watched plenty of Receivers not getting hit in stride and losing a chance to get the first because of it.

[Mike in Horseheads]

Tyrod who? Certainly not Taylor!!

[Maine-iac]

What makes this different than all the other "rebuildings"?  Someone answer that question.  Is hope all we've got?  Am I wrong because I don't "trust" the process anymore.  The Jaguars made the playoffs last year with good defense and Bortles.  They continue to try to find better pass catchers and make the defense better.  Who do you think will have more success over the next 3 to 5 seasons?  That isn't a statement of me saying the Jaquars will but an honest question.   We are playing the long game, really long.

[Maine-iac]

11 minutes ago, buffaloaggie said:

Saw it all the time. That's most fan's biggest frustration with Taylor, along with taking sacks. The subject of this discussion is Tyrod Taylor supposedly turning heads. Not Allen and our O-Line. Tyrod can get a team so far, but if a team needs to win based on his passing ability, that team will likely come up on the short end. Does anyone have stats on how many times we ran for a first down vs passing for it? All I know is I watched plenty of Receivers not getting hit in stride and losing a chance to get the first because of it.

There are stats,  I'm not dragging it all up again, but yes statisticaly Taylor was good at producing first downs especially given the down and distances he faced.  We've moved on but I think all the moves on offense making the statement that we are better is at best an opinion and a hope.  I am, with Taylor or without, a believer in build the defense first and run the football. I think adding Allen to when we had Orton and had just drafted Watkins would have been great (if we had kept our coaching staff).  Having completely ripped the offense apart the notion of putting it back together seems too far away.  I'm not lobbing the notion that I'm a crappy fan on myself for feeling annoyed at waiting possibly years to see the playoffs again.  I hope they nailed it and everything works but I don't feel bad about being skeptical.

[Kirby Jackson]

I fully expect Tyrod to have success in Cleveland. He has weapons and is 1,000,000,000x better than anyone that they’ve run out there since they came back into the league. I would expect Baker to take the reigns at some point though. 

 

While Tyrod is better today than anyone on our roster today te Bills are trying to go forward. They have reached decent. Now they want to get to good. The Browns are trying to reach decent. It’s just a different situation. Allen will dictate whether or not the team goes forward or back. I don’t expect Allen to have Andy Dalton’s career. He’s going to be a star or a bust IMO.

[PIZ]

Allen can run too......

 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

 

 

I'm not sure AJ McCarron is better than Taylor in ANY regard.......TT got the ball to playmakers....the complaint with him was basically the sin of not throwing the ball to Brandon Tate when he was open on the all-22's........but yes he'd definitely be a better option than McCarron with what looks to be an even further depleted offensive group than last year.    I mean they are older or worse on paper at OL, RB, TE.......even WR somehow.    Who'd have thought that they would do WORSE than Deonte Thompson........it's bad-knee-KB and then Dropzone and then who?

 

I know they have lot's of cap room in 2019 but at WR they needed to be more pro-active IMO.........I mean heck KB might end up being the top FA WR next year........it's not a great looking group.

 

 

[BillsFan4]

Just now, KzooMike said:

After seeing how little we added to the offense, unless we add some major production prior to start of the year we are poised to have one of the most talent depleted offenses in football. If you asked me my preference between AJ and Tyrod I would say AJ, but that's only if he has play makers around him. Tyrod can't take advantage of play makers as much AJ can, but the reality is, we have nobody outside of McCoy. AJ holds the ball like Taylor, high sack rates, little mobility, much more turnover prone. What Tyrod can do is generate yards on his own. He helped mask the offensive line issues. He didn't commit turnovers. I'm certainly not arguing at all that an upgrade was required over Taylor. I just just think with this current roster Taylor would have given us a better chance to win games.    

Why do you say Maccarron is much more turnover prone? 

 

In his 133 attempts in the NFL, he has thrown 2 interceptions. 

 

Before Tyrod got here, in his 4 years in Baltimore he had 35 total,pass attempts and threw 2 interceptions. 

 

 

Looking at college stats -

 

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/tyrod-taylor-1.html

 

Tyrod had 3, 7, 5 and 5 interceptions in his 4 years.

 

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/aj-mccarron-1.html

 

Maccarron threw 0, 5, 3 and 7 in his 4 year college career. 

 

 

 

 

[baskingridgebillsfan]

First off nobody holds the ball like Taylor.  Second, you know a healthy Benjamin is a big addition to what they had last year.  With a qb that will throw the ball on time and to a spot Benjamin will be a good weapon, add Shady , and clay and the while it is not and elite group I, it is top heavy and they won with less last season 

[RussellDopeland]

Tyrod was the starter here for 3 years. He had 1....ONE...300 yard passing game to his credit during that stretch. Tom Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger- they have surpassed 300 yards in only one HALF of football from time to time.  Taylor wasn't lacking for weapons, either: Watkins, Robert Woods, Marquise Goodwin, Chris Hogan, Kelvin Benjamin, Jordan Mathews, Charles Clay- even Shady McCoy and Dimarco are solid receivers. These skill players have proven with other QBs how effective they can be in this league as receivers. Tyrod is just not starting-caliber in the league as it's presently constituted- 134 yards on 37 attempts in the playoffs is embarrassingly bad. Sorry...he's a likable guy, runs well, doesn't turn it over, etc.. But he'll never take you beyond where we went with him here...8-8, 7-9, 9-7 at best. 

[C.Biscuit97]

I was never a big Tyrod guy but he is the better qb of anyone on the Bills roster. Still, it was time to move on and it was pretty lucky to get a 3rd for him. 

 

I just wish we drafted a different guy.

[Rob's House]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think that 25/15 TD/Int for 15 years number is quite reflective of why these guys are in the HOF**.

 

For example, Troy Aikman isn't in the HOF because he threw 165 TD and 141 INT in his 12 year career.  He's there because of the years he threw 16 TD to 7 INT and won Superbowls.  His INT numbers are raised by his 3 initial seasons when he was learning the game, and his final season before he retired, and poor seasons in between in which his team won on D or struggled.

 

Yes, where and when an INT is thrown does affect its impact on the game's outcome, but I don't think it can really be argued INTs don't mean a whole lot.  Turnover ratio is pretty well established as one of the key factors linked to game outcome.

 

(**note also many of the so-called "modern era" QB in the HOF played before the league evolved into the pass-centric game it is today - Otto Graham, Sonny Jurgensen, Bobby Layne, YA Tittle Norm Van Brocklin etc - their stats may not reflect today's needs)

I sometimes wonder how much of that is cause and how much is effect.

 

Teams that are down late tend to take more chances and throw more passes which increase the risk of turnovers.

 

As far as not all turnovers being equal, a 40 yd bomb that gets picked off is really no worse than a punt. A pick 6 or fumble near the LOS can be a game changer.

 

Personally, I like a QB who'd rather risk the int on a deep ball and give you a chance at a big play than the guy who checks down on 3rd and long to protect his stat sheet.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Rob's House

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Rob's House said:

I sometimes wonder how much of that is cause and how much is effect.

 

Teams that are down late tend to take more chances and throw more passes which increase the risk of turnovers.

 

As far as not all turnovers being equal, a 40 yd bomb that gets picked off is really no worse than a punt. A pick 6 or fumble near the LOS can be a game changer.

 

Personally, I like a QB who'd rather risk the int on a deep ball and give you a chance at a big play than the guy who checks down on 3rd and long to protect his stat sheet.

 

On that last, oh sure.   We all got way tired of Trentative, and while I dont think Tyrod was protecting his stat sheet the end result is the same.

But remember "Pickspatrick"?  We all got tired of him, too.

 

On the 40 yd bomb that gets picked off no worse than a punt (I presume you mean on 3rd down) - What was your field position?  With a good FG kicker, a 40 yd bomb from their 45 yd line (say) takes 3 points off the board.  Not same thing as punt.

 

Good question on cause/effect but seems to me when teams are down late by a big score, it's often the end result of turnovers given up that turned into points against.

[Bobby Hooks]

Taylor? Yuck! I’d rather start Webb. 

 

AJ will do. 

[ngbills]

10 hours ago, Lfod said:

Tyrod is fine if you don't mind a few 3 point games in a season. You like 3 point games and that's fine. 

He has 2-3 of these games in his ~50 starts but ok...

[T master]

10 hours ago, KzooMike said:

After seeing how little we added to the offense, unless we add some major production prior to start of the year we are poised to have one of the most talent depleted offenses in football. If you asked me my preference between AJ and Tyrod I would say AJ, but that's only if he has play makers around him. Tyrod can't take advantage of play makers as much AJ can, but the reality is, we have nobody outside of McCoy. AJ holds the ball like Taylor, high sack rates, little mobility, much more turnover prone. What Tyrod can do is generate yards on his own. He helped mask the offensive line issues. He didn't commit turnovers. I'm certainly not arguing at all that an upgrade was required over Taylor. I just just think with this current roster Taylor would have given us a better chance to win games.    

 

 

There is one big difference AJ reads the D much better & faster than Tyrod so with that being said AJ being more accurate between the hash marks in the middle of the field along with making the decision with his anticipation of a WR or TE coming open will have & has proven to have a higher completion percentage .

 

Tyrod took a lot more sacks & had to run more because he was slower at reading the D . We have all seen during the time Tyrod was our QB players that were open & he didn't see them coming open or didn't have the confidence in what he was seeing to throw into the window given . AJ has (any time I've watched him) shown a Brady like awareness of the field .

 

IMHO i think he will be a great QB & we will see the same kind of production & player that he was while playing for Saban along with the wins ! Only if given a true chance to prove himself & Allen because of where he was taken in the draft isn't anointed the day one starter to work out his faults while in real game situations which could be either a terribly bad thing or a awesome like good thing !! 

 

But i'm putting my money on AJ !! I think he could be the Bills Brady & if he's not it wouldn't surprise me if Bellichek noticed his talent took him for nothing installed him in his offense & made the Bills & the AFC east pay for another 10 years after he is gone & turns the reigns over to the next HC !! 

[BringBackOrton]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I fully expect Tyrod to have success in Cleveland. He has weapons and is 1,000,000,000x better than anyone that they’ve run out there since they came back into the league. I would expect Baker to take the reigns at some point though. 

 

While Tyrod is better today than anyone on our roster today te Bills are trying to go forward. They have reached decent. Now they want to get to good. The Browns are trying to reach decent. It’s just a different situation. Allen will dictate whether or not the team goes forward or back. I don’t expect Allen to have Andy Dalton’s career. He’s going to be a star or a bust IMO.

Success with Tyrod in Cleveland is playing .200 ball.

[boyst]

2 hours ago, IndyMark said:

Regarding your first statement above, can you try that again in simple English?

 

Regarding your second, you must have hated Jim Kelly, he averaged over 1 interception a game throughout his career.  Only one season was his INT total less than 10; specifically, Kelly compared to Taylor on INT% was 3.7% vs. 1.4%, respectively. Interceptions are part of the game when your quarterback, you know, throws downfield.

That was a different breed of football back then.  Look across the board.

 

 

And I'd bet we lose by wider margins in 2018 than we did by 2017 because we give more balls away.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I fully expect Tyrod to have success in Cleveland. He has weapons and is 1,000,000,000x better than anyone that they’ve run out there since they came back into the league. I would expect Baker to take the reigns at some point though. 

 

While Tyrod is better today than anyone on our roster today te Bills are trying to go forward. They have reached decent. Now they want to get to good. The Browns are trying to reach decent. It’s just a different situation. Allen will dictate whether or not the team goes forward or back. I don’t expect Allen to have Andy Dalton’s career. He’s going to be a star or a bust IMO.

If Tyrod has “success”, why is Mayfield going to take the reigns this season? Not a criticism, I’m just trying to pick your brain on this logic. 

[HappyDays]

No one expects the team to be good this year, its all about building for the future. The Tyrod trade got us Edmunds and Teller. They're way more important to our future than he would have been.

[Maine-iac]

 

2 minutes ago, DriveFor1Outta5 said:

If Tyrod has “success”, why is Mayfield going to take the reigns this season? Not a criticism, I’m just trying to pick your brain on this logic. 

It could happen but since you seem positive show me your source saying Tyrod isn't the starter as of right now.  Every source I've seen says Taylor is the starter.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Maine-iac

[DriveFor1Outta5]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

 

It could happen but since you seem positive show me your source saying Tyrod isn't the starter as of right now.  Every source I've seen says Taylor is the starter.

Where did I say that Tyrod isn’t the starter? 

[Kirby Jackson]

6 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

Success with Tyrod in Cleveland is playing .200 ball.

I think that they win AT LEAST 6 games (I have them at 8-8). They are much better today than a year ago (but still have Hue).

3 minutes ago, DriveFor1Outta5 said:

If Tyrod has “success”, why is Mayfield going to take the reigns this season? Not a criticism, I’m just trying to pick your brain on this logic. 

I’m saying late in the season. They’ll be much more competitive but not in the playoffs. The last few weeks they’ll run their future out there and see what happens. Tyrod has raised their floor and it will be up to Baker to determine their ceiling.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

4 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that they win AT LEAST 6 games (I have them at 8-8). They are much better today than a year ago (but still have Hue).

I’m saying late in the season. They’ll be much more competitive but not in the playoffs. The last few weeks they’ll run their future out there and see what happens. Tyrod has raised their floor and it will be up to Baker to determine their ceiling.

That makes sense. If Tyrod has them in the playoff chase, he isn’t going to be benched for Mayfield. If Tyrod plays well but they still aren’t in the playoff hunt, they will definitely want to see what Mayfield can do. 

Edited April 29, 2018 by DriveFor1Outta5

[Big Gun]

48 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I was never a big Tyrod guy but he is the better qb of anyone on the Bills roster. Still, it was time to move on and it was pretty lucky to get a 3rd for him. 

 

I just wish we drafted a different guy.

Couldn't disagree more.

 

IDK what the Browns brass says, IMO Mayfield will be starting week 1.

[Maine-iac]

3 minutes ago, DriveFor1Outta5 said:

Where did I say that Tyrod isn’t the starter? 

If Tyrod has “success”, why is Mayfield going to take the reigns this season?

 

If you ask why Mayfield will become starter you are saying Taylor will not be the starter.  If you know this then show the source or is it just your opinion?  Like I said it could happen but you don't know that.

[Maine-iac]

2 minutes ago, DriveFor1Outta5 said:

That makes sense. If Tyrod has them in the playoff chase, he isn’t going to be benched for Mayfield. If Tyrod plays well but they still aren’t in the playoff hunt, they will definitely want to see what Mayfield can do. 

You are right Mayfield should definately end up starting at some point.  I just haven't seen anything saying it in black and white yet.  It would be funny if Taylor gets traded to Denver.  Everyone rumored him going there at one point.  I just wish things weren't so bleak, Allen excluded obviously he's got huge potential, on the offensive side.  Coaching is an unknown, OL is pretty unsettled, and our pass catchers are way below par.  Actually the QB position on offense might be the least upsetting going into next season.  I like Allen and McCarron.

Just now, DriveFor1Outta5 said:

If I ask someone else why THEY think Mayfield will become the starter at some point this season, how does that indicate I believe Tyrod is not the starter? 

You didn't ask why, as in the reason, you asked why the event was going to happen period.  As in it will happen and you know it.

[DriveFor1Outta5]

Just now, Maine-iac said:

You are right Mayfield should definately end up starting at some point.  I just haven't seen anything saying it in black and white yet.  It would be funny if Taylor gets traded to Denver.  Everyone rumored him going there at one point.  I just wish things weren't so bleak, Allen excluded obviously he's got huge potential, on the offensive side.  Coaching is an unknown, OL is pretty unsettled, and our pass catchers are way below par.  Actually the QB position on offense might be the least upsetting going into next season.  I like Allen and McCarron.

Absolutely, whoever starts at QB for us is going to be thrown into a brutal situation. Our offense really isn’t set up to allow anyone the opportunity to succeed at this point. 

[The Red King]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

You are right Mayfield should definately end up starting at some point.  I just haven't seen anything saying it in black and white yet.  It would be funny if Taylor gets traded to Denver.  Everyone rumored him going there at one point.  I just wish things weren't so bleak, Allen excluded obviously he's got huge potential, on the offensive side.  Coaching is an unknown, OL is pretty unsettled, and our pass catchers are way below par.  Actually the QB position on offense might be the least upsetting going into next season.  I like Allen and McCarron.

 

Can only do so much at a time.  We free up a ton of cap space next season.  Expect the Bills O to receive a full overhaul and lots of loving next offseason via draft and FA.

[Foxx]

21 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

 

It could happen but since you seem positive show me your source saying Tyrod isn't the starter as of right now.  Every source I've seen says Taylor is the starter.

 

13 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

If Tyrod has “success”, why is Mayfield going to take the reigns this season?

 

If you ask why Mayfield will become starter you are saying Taylor will not be the starter.  If you know this then show the source or is it just your opinion?  Like I said it could happen but you don't know that.

context is your friend. the reply you are responding to was in response to Kirby's contention that Mayfield would,'take the reigns' at some point during the season.

 

7 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

You are right Mayfield should definately end up starting at some point.  I just haven't seen anything saying it in black and white yet.  It would be funny if Taylor gets traded to Denver.  Everyone rumored him going there at one point.  I just wish things weren't so bleak, Allen excluded obviously he's got huge potential, on the offensive side.  Coaching is an unknown, OL is pretty unsettled, and our pass catchers are way below par.  Actually the QB position on offense might be the least upsetting going into next season.  I like Allen and McCarron.

You didn't ask why, as in the reason, you asked why the event was going to happen period.  As in it will happen and you know it.

just a thought but.... maybe you would like to go to the Browns playground as that is where your obvious savior is now playing.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Foxx

[Albwan]

Hahahaha, this board is morphing into the old bills board right in front of my eyes

[Maine-iac]

7 minutes ago, Foxx said:

 

context is your friend. the reply you are responding to was in response to Kirby's contention that Mayfield would,'take the reigns' at some point during the season.

 

just a thought but.... maybe you would like to go to the Browns playground as that is where your obvious savior is now playing.

Point A you are right, I missed that.  Point B  I have suggestions where you can go play but I'll do what you should have and keep them to myself.

[Foxx]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

Point A you are right, I missed that.  Point B  I have suggestions where you can go play but I'll do what you should have and keep them to myself.

i apologize for my last point, i'm sorry. 

 

in defense though, it just seems that you will go to any lengths to defend Tyrod. i mean, you are going on about him possibly being traded to Denver. i'm sorry but Tyrod is what he is and that is just not ever going to change. he is a good upstanding young man that tries hard, is a good teammate but is not really a starting qb in the NFL.

[Maine-iac]

Nothing has changed.  I liked him when he was here and I like him in Cleveland.  You are allowed to not like him as much as I'm allowed to like him.  I liked Fred and Stevie and continued to like them when they left.  So the difference here really is that you don't like him therefore you don't like me posting about it.  It is in a thread that I didn't create and is titled about him.  I'm not creating threads saying we are doomed because we let Tyrod go.  I actually think our QB situation has a lot of potential with both McCarron and Allen.  Every other part of the offense, aside from McCoy, is a nightmare and I'm not sold on the OC choice and I don't feel like waiting 3 seasons find out if we gambled and won/lost.  I am sick of not being competitive and trust the process doesn't cut it for me.

[Foxx]

3 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Nothing has changed.  I liked him when he was here and I like him in Cleveland.  You are allowed to not like him as much as I'm allowed to like him.  I liked Fred and Stevie and continued to like them when they left.  So the difference here really is that you don't like him therefore you don't like me posting about it.  It is in a thread that I didn't create and is titled about him.  I'm not creating threads saying we are doomed because we let Tyrod go.  I actually think our QB situation has a lot of potential with both McCarron and Allen.  Every other part of the offense, aside from McCoy, is a nightmare and I'm not sold on the OC choice and I don't feel like waiting 3 seasons find out if we gambled and won/lost.  I am sick of not being competitive and trust the process doesn't cut it for me.

two things...

 

all i will say is that i like to live in reality. 

 

as to your last sentence, if it doesn't cut it for you, what are you going to do? piss and moan?

 

Beane is not stupid. he understands that, for better or worse, his future is tied to Allen. he had a choice between Rosen and Allen. he could have aken the safer choice and selected Rosen which in all likelyhood would have secured his job for at least the next decade. so him taking Allen says a bit to me. it says that he believes Allen has a greater potential and that there is a real good chance that he can realize that potential. it also tells me that when all is said and done, that he believes Allen will have the better career. another thing it potentially says is that beane is not afraid to go after what he believes and i like that. could he be wrong, sure. i am often wrong but this is what i choose to believe the tea leaves are saying right now.

 

McBeane took a ragtag team to the playoffs last season, better than any regime has done in the previous 17 years. for that reason alone they get my vote of confidence and will for the forseeable future. i am not expecting much this coming year, i think the real advancement will be in '19.

[Doc Brown]

[Maine-iac]

[ngbills]

2 hours ago, T master said:

 

 

There is one big difference AJ reads the D much better & faster than Tyrod so with that being said AJ being more accurate between the hash marks in the middle of the field along with making the decision with his anticipation of a WR or TE coming open will have & has proven to have a higher completion percentage .

 

Tyrod took a lot more sacks & had to run more because he was slower at reading the D . We have all seen during the time Tyrod was our QB players that were open & he didn't see them coming open or didn't have the confidence in what he was seeing to throw into the window given . AJ has (any time I've watched him) shown a Brady like awareness of the field .

Says who? He showed this when?