Fred Says Whaley Dishonest With Him

[Last Guy on the Bench]

No. Read through his twitter feed (which I just did). Coaches, people in football ops, etc. means more than "some coaches." To be honest, I'm going to move on because I realize I'm arguing with people that think Whaley is a good gm. I think he's run of the mill -- good on defensive talent; lousy on the qb -- and also a bureaucratic infighter. He might be better at the player side of things than his predecessors, but that's not saying much. But if the team gets to 8-8 (the Bills real record last year if that Pats game had mattered at all), all of the sudden he's a great roster builder. I need to see a lot more than that before arriving at this conclusion. But this board features a lot of people who are inherently pro-management, so the conversation has predictably drifted to the point where it is now ("hard-headed" pro-Whaley folks snarking at the Jackson loyalists while also resorting to the cheapest trick in the book, blaming the media).

 

Anyway, I thought it was a dumb decision to cut Jackson for more than one reason. I'll leave it at that.

I think there are more than the two sides you are painting.

 

For example, I personally agree with you that it was a bad decision to cut Fred (also for lots of reasons), and in general I am fairly neutral wrt Whaley. I think he's made some good moves, but I don't think I have a complete enough picture of him (let alone a few winning seasons in the books) to really judge.

 

And I am a bit troubled to see this kind of stuff rearing its head after we heard about similar discord with Marrone.

 

However, I cannot believe that Whaley is cutting people without the general agreement of the coaching staff (or at least Rex). That would be insane. There might be disagreement within the coaching staff, but that would be normal. If Rex was either against this or uninformed about it, I would fire Whaley on the spot if I was Pegula. But I doubt that's what happened.

 

I am definitely not pro-management in general, but I also know that egos exist on all sides. Fred is wounded. He spouts off (as many of us might) in probably not the most mature way, even thought it's understandable. If I remember correctly he was a bit publicly disgruntled a few years back around his contract negotiations as well (or am I totally making that up?). He's a prideful guy. Whaley may not have been 100% candid with him. But I wouldn't take Fred's version as gospel any more than I'd take Whaley's or anyone else's.

 

To me it's a muddy picture made up of contradictory human beings.

[A Dog Named Kelso]

lol Story going national outside of the sports world. Way to go Tim!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/buffalo-bills-gm-accused-going-141518398.html

[negativo]

 

Wait, wait...seriously? You're going on record here as saying that you believe that folks that think Whaley is a good GM are plants hired by the team to say this stuff on a message board?

 

Thanks for that...I now know that I should never again take anything you post here seriously.

 

Your faux "shock" that management has plants on the payroll doing social media damage control is charming and telling. Also, tossing in that little strawman qualifier of "thinking Whaley is a good GM" was a nice added touch. Whaley must be proud.

[birdog1960]

 

Wait, wait...seriously? You're going on record here as saying that you believe that folks that think Whaley is a good GM are plants hired by the team to say this stuff on a message board?

 

Thanks for that...I now know that I should never again take anything you post here seriously.

 

I really do think you're onto something here.

yes, because there's absolutely no precedent for it: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/feb/23/need-to-protect-internet-from-astroturfing. it would be the bills novel idea.

 

"After I wrote about online astroturfing in December, I was contacted by a whistleblower. He was part of a commercial team employed to infest internet forums and comment threads on behalf of corporate clients, promoting their causes and arguing with anyone who opposed them."

Edited September 2, 2015 by birdog1960

[eball]

lol Story going national outside of the sports world. Way to go Tim!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/buffalo-bills-gm-accused-going-141518398.html

 

From the article:

 

"in the grand scheme of things, the decision to cut Jackson without informing everyone in the organization is not huge. Again, Jackson is on the back end of his career and would have seen a diminished role in the offense."

[Kelly the Dog]

lol Story going national outside of the sports world. Way to go Tim!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/buffalo-bills-gm-accused-going-141518398.html

And this is why it was totally irresponsible of Graham. This guy writes a national story with the conclusion that Rex Ryan was not told of the decision. That's insanity.

[BringBackFergy]

lol Story going national outside of the sports world. Way to go Tim!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/buffalo-bills-gm-accused-going-141518398.html

Pretty sad journalism: a player who made $17 million over 9 years gets cut early so he can make more money on another team and all we read about is some contrived conspiracy about a GM who made a tough decision.

[thebandit27]

 

"Pro-management", "pro-Whaley" posters are doing the job they were hired to do. Social media damage control is all business, and after a classless move like unceremoniously dumping the face of the franchise against the coaches wishes you can bet they are in all-hands-on-deck mode..

 

 

 

 

Your faux "shock" that management has plants on the payroll doing social media damage control is charming and telling. Also, tossing in that little strawman qualifier of "thinking Whaley is a good GM" was a nice added touch. Whaley must be proud.

 

See above, it was your wording, not mine.

 

And again, I now know never to take you seriously.

 

yes, because there's absolutely no precedent for it: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2011/feb/23/need-to-protect-internet-from-astroturfing. it would be the bills novel idea.

 

"After I wrote about online astroturfing in December, I was contacted by a whistleblower. He was part of a commercial team employed to infest internet forums and comment threads on behalf of corporate clients, promoting their causes and arguing with anyone who opposed them."

 

Yes, PR firms hire people to flood message boards. This is true.

 

However, I'd like to think that anyone that isn't 100% acluistic would click on poster's names and see how long they've been members of the boards, and then engage their brain in order to draw a conclusion as to whether they've been recently hired to shill.

 

Then again, I'm always giving people too much credit for thinking.

[YoloinOhio]

Now I'm pissed I haven't gotten my paycheck from OBD for being planted here. #dishonesty #rogue

[thebandit27]

Now I'm pissed I haven't gotten my paycheck from OBD for being planted here. #dishonesty #rogue

 

That is a charming and telling strawman argument

 

#yoloisashill

[Mike in Horseheads]

lol Story going national outside of the sports world. Way to go Tim!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/buffalo-bills-gm-accused-going-141518398.html

This is typical Buffalo News hacks. Bucky and Harrington had their feelings hurt because the Sabres didn't give them a personal audience at the end of the season. Sully has been pissed since he got blown off by Pegs about a new stadium. And Graham is Graham. They all hold a grudge because the Pegula family owns both teams and they won't lick TBN's boots.

[Canadian Bills Fan]

What a weasel

 

 

 

CBF

[T master]

I Get it, I get it, Fred is one of the best Bills we have had here since the glory days & I get why Fred is pissed, but this is something the Pats do all the time !

 

They cut, waive, or trade players that have been with the team before they are completely useless to other teams to advance with younger players to keep the team relevant .

 

Although it is a tough pill to swallow for all concerned i think it will prove that Whaley & company have the teams future best interest in mind .

 

But only time will tell, and time heals all wounds !!

 

Thanks Fred for all you have given to the Bills & Buffalo !! I will still be routing for you !!!!!!!!!!

[Mike in Horseheads]

Now I'm pissed I haven't gotten my paycheck from OBD for being planted here. #dishonesty #rogue

I'm feeling pissed also, I pay then for their merchandise etc.

[flmike]

My take on "rogue" is that Whaley was the only one who really had a thing against Jackson. Who knows why that was. Could have been personal. FJ's remark suggests this. Whaley wanted to cut him preseason, but the Pegs seem to have nixed that. He finally wore them down and the owners went back into "owner mode" and signed off to cover him. As for age, he has fewer NFL carries than McCoy, who is 27. Fred is not a burner but he was still the best pass blocker and always fell forward for yardage, unlike our other backs (even with the crappy OL design last year).

[NoSaint]

 

"Pro-management", "pro-Whaley" posters are doing the job they were hired to do. Social media damage control is all business, and after a classless move like unceremoniously dumping the face of the franchise against the coaches wishes you can bet they are in all-hands-on-deck mode..

yea, all the regulars that have been here longer than DW (or any other front office members) and specifically most of the rational guys that both agree with, and often call out the team on moves, are Doug whaley plants.

[PromoTheRobot]

#roguegate timeline:

 

1)Whaley cuts Fred without telling anyone. He went rogue!

 

2)Actually he did clear it with the owner but not the coaches. Still rogue!

 

3) Actually it was only some of the coaches. Still kind of rogue.

 

4) Actually it was just the sales rep for M&T bank who didn't know.

 

[negativo]

Some people conveniently miss nuance - like quotes around words - as a strategy to advance their interests. Those whom they represent encourage these tactics to create false dichotomies that favor their narrative. Pretty sleazy stuff, yet fitting in a case such as this when the principle has acted in the sleaziest of fashions.

 

 

See above, it was your wording, not mine. And again, I now know never to take you seriously.

[thebandit27]

yea, all the regulars that have been here longer than DW (or any other front office members) and specifically most of the rational guys that both agree with, and often call out the team on moves, are Doug whaley plants.

 

Well...we can now add NoSaint to the list of shills

 

Welcome!

 

[kickedface]

i'm surprised at the ferocity that the anti fred jackson crowd is reacting to this. i don't like the move, i think it makes the team weaker. i could understand if it was money and FJ wasn't willing to take a pay cut. or he could cut it on the field as a back up RB. or even if he wanted out because he wanted to be a starting RB or leave the team. he's allowed to be upset. Shady was the same way when he left PHI. it could be that whaley is taking all the heat for this even if he didn't make the choice on his own. it doesn't make sense to me to make all this noise about keeping him a couple months ago only to cut him now. weird. yeah he's 34, no i don't think he was going to play forever. i thought he might have had a year or 2 left. if brown was the reason for a lack of spots that is disappointing.

[thebandit27]

Some people conveniently miss nuance - like quotes around words - as a strategy to advance their interests. Those whom they represent encourage these tactics to create false dichotomies that favor their narrative. Pretty sleazy stuff, yet fitting in a case such as this when the principle has acted in the sleaziest of fashions.

 

 

This stuff is priceless...how long have you worked on this shtick? It's good!

[BringBackFergy]

#roguegate timeline:

 

1)Whaley cuts Fred without telling anyone. He went rogue!

 

2)Actually he did clear it with the owner but not the coaches. Still rogue!

 

3) Actually it was only some of the coaches. Still kind of rogue.

 

4) Actually it was just the sales rep for M&T bank who didn't know.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

 

 

 

 

See above, it was your wording, not mine.

 

And again, I now know never to take you seriously.

 

 

Yes, PR firms hire people to flood message boards. This is true.

 

However, I'd like to think that anyone that isn't 100% acluistic would click on poster's names and see how long they've been members of the boards, and then engage their brain in order to draw a conclusion as to whether they've been recently hired to shill.

 

Then again, I'm always giving people too much credit for thinking.

If anything much of the Whaley outrage seems to be coming from posters with less than a hundred posts.

[NoSaint]

 

Yes, PR firms hire people to flood message boards. This is true.

 

However, I'd like to think that anyone that isn't 100% acluistic would click on poster's names and see how long they've been members of the boards, and then engage their brain in order to draw a conclusion as to whether they've been recently hired to shill.

 

Then again, I'm always giving people too much credit for thinking.

that we have progressed to "anyone that disagrees with me has been paid to lie" is an exciting development in the discussion.

 

Well...we can now add NoSaint to the list of shills

 

Welcome!

 

did you run this all by football ops? or have you gone #fullwhaley in revealing the list? Edited September 2, 2015 by NoSaint

[YoloinOhio]

My take on "rogue" is that Whaley was the only one who really had a thing against Jackson. Who knows why that was. Could have been personal. FJ's remark suggests this. Whaley wanted to cut him preseason, but the Pegs seem to have nixed that. He finally wore them down and the owners went back into "owner mode" and signed off to cover him. As for age, he has fewer NFL carries than McCoy, who is 27. Fred is not a burner but he was still the best pass blocker and always fell forward for yardage, unlike our other backs (even with the crappy OL design last year).

CJ is gone. The others move forward when they run the ball as well. And the carries thing is overblown. Fred is slower and more injury prone and cheaper. The other backs they are keeping are faster, have much fewer carries, and cheaper. I love Fred for many reasons but I do not find this move to be out of the norm in the league. Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[thebandit27]

If anything much of the Whaley outrage seems to be coming from posters with less than a hundred posts.

 

You noticed that too, huh?

 

that we have progressed to "anyone that disagrees with me has been paid to lie" is an exciting development in the discussion.

did you run this all by football ops? or have you gone #fullwhaley in revealing the list?

 

I'm a shill and can do what I want

[Kelly the Dog]

Here is the entire timeline of events, big and small, that led to the abrupt releasing of Fred Jackson, M&T Bank not being communicated with, and football ops and administration not being consulted and told.

 

1. Karlos Williams was better than they thought.

2. Whaley and Rex and Roman talked about that.

[YoloinOhio]

So I know Brown has a very high exposure fumble last year but he has otherwise looked really good. McKelvin fumbled a punt in that game also. I don't know why people hate Brown so much. I personally have questioned whether he has the "heart" to succeed as a NFL RB - simply because I don't know. We never hear from him. It may sound like a little thing but I think it's important to have an edge, passion on the field. I do see it with Karlos. Anyway I think Brown looked good... Not sure why he is always brought up with such bitterness around here.

Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[BringBackFergy]

Here is the entire timeline of events, big and small, that led to the abrupt releasing of Fred Jackson, M&T Bank not being communicated with, and football ops and administration not being consulted and told.

 

1. Karlos Williams was better than they thought.

2. Whaley and Rex and Roman talked about that.

3. Karlos Williams cap hit is about 20% of Fred's.

4. Whaley makes tough decision but keeps a good player and saves money for future signings thus fulfilling his role as GM.

Yours are perfect but I just had to add 3 and 4 for my own sanity.

[Fan in Chicago]

If anything much of the Whaley outrage seems to be coming from posters with less than a hundred posts.

 

Not really. I am one of those that are a tad skeptical. Dave McBride, a regular is also expressing unhappiness.

I am against (1) Fred being cut because he is better than, at least, Bryce Brown, who has done little since getting here. Even if I ignore the fumbling issue (2) The way it was done. I trust FredJ because he has never dissed the FO in the media before.

 

So far, the company line was that Ryan and Whaley are lock step regarding personnel decisions and the direction of the team. If Whaley , in fact, circumvented Ryan, it plays against this narrative.

 

Don't get me wrong, Whaley has done a great job with the roster so far (Except for QB). But we have to be objective when things appear suspicious. So far I see: bringing on players with past issues, possible continued mismanaging of the QB situation (does Cassel really have to be cut ?), unceremoniously getting rid of a locker room leader, fan favorite, on-field cheerleader. There is nothing wrong with pointing out what appears less than ideal.

[flmike]

Here's a question. I was not on this board when Thurman was cut. Was the reaction the same? I would guess not, because everyone knew it was time. This is different. FJ was cut when most of our backfield is injured. We are told they will be fine, but we haven't even been told what Karlos's problem is. I'm just not buying everything I hear from official sources. I think the Bills are better with FJ this year. I don't know about next year, but I think this move will not strengthen the team, especially on passing downs.

[YoloinOhio]

 

Not really. I am one of those that are a tad skeptical. Dave McBride, a regular is also expressing unhappiness.

I am against (1) Fred being cut because he is better than, at least, Bryce Brown, who has done little since getting here. Even if I ignore the fumbling issue (2) The way it was done. I trust FredJ because he has never dissed the FO in the media before.

 

So far, the company line was that Ryan and Whaley are lock step regarding personnel decisions and the direction of the team. If Whaley , in fact, circumvented Ryan, it plays against this narrative.

 

Don't get me wrong, Whaley has done a great job with the roster so far (Except for QB). But we have to be objective when things appear suspicious. So far I see: bringing on players with past issues, possible continued mismanaging of the QB situation (does Cassel really have to be cut ?), unceremoniously getting rid of a locker room leader, fan favorite, on-field cheerleader. There is nothing wrong with pointing out what appears less than ideal.

I'm not sure, other than his pass blocking (which isn't as critical this year with the mobile QB and improved OL, plus McCoy being on field for 3rd downs) that he is better than Brown. If they even keep Brown. Why do you think so? I love Fred, but brown has looked really good.

 

Ultimately I think Karlos is his replacement but still wondering.

Here's a question. I was not on this board when Thurman was cut. Was the reaction the same? I would guess not, because everyone knew it was time. This is different. FJ was cut when most of our backfield is injured. We are told they will be fine, but we haven't even been told what Karlos's problem is. I'm just not buying everything I hear from official sources. I think the Bills are better with FJ this year. I don't know about next year, but I think this move will not strengthen the team, especially on passing downs.

they are not required to tell us about Karlos's medical procedure, just as they weren't required to tell us about Glenn's illness last year. They told us his timetable for return, that's all that's necessary (and standard).

 

McCoy isn't Spiller. He will be on the field on passing downs. This is a good thing.

Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[thebandit27]

 

Not really. I am one of those that are a tad skeptical. Dave McBride, a regular is also expressing unhappiness.

I am against (1) Fred being cut because he is better than, at least, Bryce Brown, who has done little since getting here. Even if I ignore the fumbling issue (2) The way it was done. I trust FredJ because he has never dissed the FO in the media before.

 

So far, the company line was that Ryan and Whaley are lock step regarding personnel decisions and the direction of the team. If Whaley , in fact, circumvented Ryan, it plays against this narrative.

 

Don't get me wrong, Whaley has done a great job with the roster so far (Except for QB). But we have to be objective when things appear suspicious. So far I see: bringing on players with past issues, possible continued mismanaging of the QB situation (does Cassel really have to be cut ?), unceremoniously getting rid of a locker room leader, fan favorite, on-field cheerleader. There is nothing wrong with pointing out what appears less than ideal.

 

The very telling difference, Fan, is that there are those that are able to express themselves genuinely on many different topics, and then there are those that totally fly off the handle about everything.

 

I may not totally agree with your take, but I have no problem understanding where you're coming from with it.

 

Massive difference from certain others.

[Fan in Chicago]

I'm not sure, other than his pass blocking (which isn't as critical this year with the mobile QB and improved OL, plus McCoy being on field for 3rd downs) that he is better than Brown. If they even keep Brown. Why do you think so? I love Fred, but brown has looked really good.

 

Ultimately I think Karlos is his replacement but still wondering.

 

Fred's energy on the field can inspire the team. He has proven to be superior at pass blocking. he has consistently keyed the offense through tough runs, first downs when badly needed. Fans love his on-field and off-field attitude and character. Brown has not shown that yet. In some areas, he never will.

 

Karlos is totally unproven. He may turn out to be Barry Sanders or Trent Richardson.

[Kirby Jackson]

Kirby, I respect your views very much, but I just don't see this as being a 'risk your job' event. And if it is, T-Pegs is no less mercurial than Ralph and the only difference the franchise has now is a bigger checkbook to play with.

 

No one can be happy when these kind of hard realities butt up against "fandamonium," but it's the nature of the GM job responsibilities. Ask any GM in the league what they dislike the most about the role and they'll tell you it's making decisions like this.

 

But whether it's Belichick, Newsome,Thompson ("hey Brett, we're sorry but...") or our own Battling Bill Polian back in the day, they do happen. And the organization moves on.

 

The only ire I have for this is the way Tweedle Dee and Dumb (TG and the Buckster) are playing it out. They get the benefit of hiding behind anonymous 'sources' that could be Fred, his agent or the fly on the wall in the OBD men's room. TG in particular, who's only role at the Snooze appears to be 'agitator' and immature Twitter empresario...

Just to be clear I do not think that the move to replace Fred is like dealing away a young Andrew Luck. I meant it more in a way that it is pretty clear that this was a Whaley decision. If it does not work out then it is a Whaley problem. To me it would have been different if he was sticking his neck out for someone like Karlos Williams with no experience. He is sticking his neck out for a guy with a few years in the league, a ton of talent but not a ton of production (college included).

 

It would have been much less risky to keep Fred (the team leader) and waive Brown. If Bryce Brown went somewhere (like Dallas) and rushed for 600+ yards I still dont think that you would hear ANYONE saying, "they should have kept Brown and dumped Freddy." What you would have heard is, "good for him, there just was no room for him here with Shady, Fred, Karlos and Boobie." If Freddy goes to Seattle and rushes for 600+ yards you best believe that you will hear, "OMG, I cant believe that they let Fred walk to keep freakin' Bryce Brown."

 

That is really what I meant by risky. There is much more to lose by making that decision than there is to gain. Whaley may be right but he certainly didn't choose the conservative, safe route.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[YoloinOhio]

 

Fred's energy on the field can inspire the team. He has proven to be superior at pass blocking. he has consistently keyed the offense through tough runs, first downs when badly needed. Fans love his on-field and off-field attitude and character. Brown has not shown that yet. In some areas, he never will.

 

Karlos is totally unproven. He may turn out to be Barry Sanders or Trent Richardson.

everything you mentioned are intangibles. The pass blocking won't be done by the backups, it is done by McCoy. I understand the intangibles and I love those things about him but you can't be afraid of the unknown... The team had scouts that feel the RBs we have can replace him. Every rookie is unproven. Edited September 2, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[Fan in Chicago]

 

The very telling difference, Fan, is that there are those that are able to express themselves genuinely on many different topics, and then there are those that totally fly off the handle about everything.

 

I may not totally agree with your take, but I have no problem understanding where you're coming from with it.

 

Massive difference from certain others.

Thanx, bandit. Maybe I am a tad jaded but have definitely learned that not every thing is black and white in the coaching and GM area. As an example, not everything that Marrone did was wrong (Mike Williams) and not everything that Whaley has done is golden (QB, getting rid of Levitre without a replacement). Similarly, I am not sure everything Ryan is doing will turn out to be the best for the team.

[GG]

 

 

That is really what I meant by risky. There is much more to lose by making that decision than there is to gain. Whaley may be right but he certainly didn't choose the conservative, safe route.

 

Absolutely. Also he will hear it when Brown misses a blitz pick up and Taylor gets whacked.

[Jobot]

What I believe happened....

 

Waley wanted to release Freddy before training camp all along, but Pegula told Doug to keep him on and to allow Jackson to prove him wrong... Problem, jackson played great against Pittsburgh, but Waley was planning on cutting him all along.

 

In the end Waley doesn't have a reason for keeping Jackson on the team through the preseason other than the owner made him... It would have been a better for all parties if they had parted ways before camp, but Waley was handcuffed. There's no doubt that Whaley told Jackson (which was a lie) that he will make the team if he wins the rb back-up competition. What was he supposed to tell him? The owner is making me keep you on, but I'm definitly going to cut you in the end because we would rather keep our younger plethora of running backs?

 

I see this blunder on Pegula. He's a new owner, he needed to either give Waley full control of the situation to cut Jackson prior to camp.... Or he can be an Al Davis and have told Waley that Jackson stays no matter what. He went for something in the middle and it now looks bad for everyone.

[Fan in Chicago]

everything you mentioned are intangibles. The pass blocking won't be done by the backups, it is done by McCoy. I understand the intangibles and I love those things about him but you can't be afraid of the unknown... The team had scouts that feel the RBs we have can replace him. Every rookie is unproven.

Again, my argument is not McCoy over FredJ, it is Bryce Brown over FredJ. This move makes little sense, no matter how it is spun