The criticism of Josh Allen

[PBF81]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I would suggest that if Josh had taken the shorter throw instead of trying to hit Shakir, we could have run more clock and beaten KC.  Josh is an immense talent.  No one denies that.  I’m glad he’s our QB.  But his improvement will come not in the physical but the mental part of the game, knowing when to take the shorter option as an example.  I expect the more seasons under his belt the more we’ll see that.

 

That's fine, but that's an extremely weak answer to the fact that I posited and does not address it directly.  It also fringes on the play-calling, aka coaching, even if only the offensive side, which some would argue stems from the top-down in terms of what you mentioned.  

 

And in arguing differently, at some point then it would be quite reasonable to begin asking whether our HC is in control of the entire team, or not, or merely the D and even then not in every key situation.  Just sayin'.  

 

 

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's fine, but that's an extremely weak answer to the fact that I posited and does not address it directly.  It also fringes on the play-calling, aka coaching, even if only the offensive side, which some would argue stems from the top-down in terms of what you mentioned.  

 

And in arguing differently, at some point then it would be quite reasonable to begin asking whether our HC is in control of the entire team, or not, or merely the D and even then not in every key situation.  Just sayin'.  

 

 

Josh had a guy open short for a possible first down and a guy open deep for a possible TD.  What more could a play caller possibly be asked to do?

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

I would suggest that if Josh had taken the shorter throw instead of trying to hit Shakir, we could have run more clock and beaten KC.  Josh is an immense talent.  No one denies that.  I’m glad he’s our QB.  But his improvement will come not in the physical but the mental part of the game, knowing when to take the shorter option as an example.  I expect the more seasons under his belt the more we’ll see that.

 

Quote

Once again, that points to something beyond merely Allen as to why we do not advance.  

Butting in here, but I think you're both right.   It is certainly true that Allen's performances in the playoffs have never been the principal reason for losses.  There are plenty of fingers to point in a lot of directions, and Allen may not even have been the #1 suspect. 

 

And while I'm not convinced Allen should have thrown for the first down instead targeting Shakir, I am absolutely sure that his mastery of the mental game is what Allen needs.  That's what will define his true greatness.   And just because he hasn't necessarily crapped the bed in the playoffs, having a more effective QB managing the game will make the regular season easier, make it possible to coast into division championships instead of scrambling to get there, make him tougher to game plan for, etc. etc. etc.   

 

I have no doubt Allen needs to get better. 

[PBF81]

39 minutes ago, Billl said:

Josh had a guy open short for a possible first down and a guy open deep for a possible TD.  What more could a play caller possibly be asked to do?

 

So that one thing makes Josh the reason as to why we haven't beaten anything but crap teams in the playoffs his fault then?  Well, OK.  I suppose if that's how you view it.  

 

Which game/play are we talking about by the way?  
 

I guess we'll have to move on to a QB that never misses a pass and one that runs with a little more pizazz than Allen.  

 

 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

There’s a better chance of Josh making the HOF and Lamar missing it than vice versa. At this point, there’s simply no way to say that Allen isn’t a top 2 QB.  Arguments can be made that in any given year he didn’t produce at a top 2 level, but that’s him against the field.  Burrow may have had a better three years ago, and Hurts may have had a better season two years ago, and Lamar may have had a better season last year, but on the whole Josh is easily better than all of them.  20 years from now, nobody is going to rank Lamar above Josh on the all time list.  I’m a huge Lamar fan, but any list that has Lamar on it is a pretty long list.

I’m sorry but I disagree. Lamar as a 2 time MVP getter is pretty much a lock for HoF.

 

I think Allen and Lamar will both be in there.

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Billl said:

There’s a better chance of Josh making the HOF and Lamar missing it than vice versa. At this point, there’s simply no way to say that Allen isn’t a top 2 QB.  Arguments can be made that in any given year he didn’t produce at a top 2 level, but that’s him against the field.  Burrow may have had a better three years ago, and Hurts may have had a better season two years ago, and Lamar may have had a better season last year, but on the whole Josh is easily better than all of them.  20 years from now, nobody is going to rank Lamar above Josh on the all time list.  I’m a huge Lamar fan, but any list that has Lamar on it is a pretty long list.

He’s top 2 imo, but Joe Burrow is the reason the bolded is an exaggeration.  He beat Mahomes in the playoffs and is undefeated vs Josh.  

[Billl]

36 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

So that one thing makes Josh the reason as to why we haven't beaten anything but crap teams in the playoffs his fault then?  Well, OK.  I suppose if that's how you view it.  

 

Which game/play are we talking about by the way?  
 

I guess we'll have to move on to a QB that never misses a pass and one that runs with a little more pizazz than Allen.  

I’m not blaming Josh at all.  He played a great game.  I think the Chiefs had a better team around Mahomes than the Bills did around Allen.  Josh has a gear that no other QB other than Mahomes will ever get to, though.  He’s the one guy we play and know that it’s possible to defend him perfectly and still lose.

[Billl]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

He’s top 2 imo, but Joe Burrow is the reason the bolded is an exaggeration.  He beat Mahomes in the playoffs and is undefeated vs Josh.  

Burrow’s just hurt too much.  When he’s 100%, he might be better than Josh, but it doesn’t matter how good he is at 100% when he’s never 100%.  He’s Manning with injury issues, IMO.  There’s a feeling you get when your team plays against certain QBs, and it just feels different watching your team try to defend Josh.  It’s like when I was a kid watching John Elway.  

 

You know that if the Bengals cut your heart out it’s because Burrow feathered perfectly defended passes into minuscule windows over and over.  You know that if the Ravens do it it’s because Lamar did some brilliant display of athleticism.  With Elway, it was worse because you never knew what it was going to look like.  John was a bridesmaid many, many times before he finally won back to back and then rode off into the sunset, and now he’s on the list of the greatest ever.  Josh will need to do the same if he wants to be put into that category.  Fair or not, Marino is never more than a ‘devil’s advocate’ argument when it comes to the best ever.

[Rigotz]

Simple media strategy.

 

Pick a top 3 QB. 
 

Say he’s not top 3 and somebody else is.

 

Get clicks from both fan bases AND the others who think their QB is top 3, rather than the one you said.

 

Its click-bait.

[stuvian]

I've never read anything negative about Josh, not even on this board. He's universally recognized as a franchise QB. He's carrying the heavy karma of the team's legacy and it's a heavy cross to bear but I think he's holding up admirably. It's up to Beane to field a team good enough to beat the Chiefs on a good day. When you have a great QB the rest shouldn't be too hard.

[Bad Things]

I love you, Josh Allen!

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

I’m not blaming Josh at all.  He played a great game.  I think the Chiefs had a better team around Mahomes than the Bills did around Allen.  Josh has a gear that no other QB other than Mahomes will ever get to, though.  He’s the one guy we play and know that it’s possible to defend him perfectly and still lose.

 

I'm a little confused at what your overall point is.  

 

I argued that we haven't lost a playoff game because of Allen.  You then threw up what presumably were counterexamples, which I considered to be weak.  This last statement of yours seems to be in agreement with the original point.  

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

6 hours ago, 90sBills said:

How many times did Vinatieri bailed out Brady? That’s not the point as Brady is considered the goat. 
 

Let’s say Bass made that kick. So now Mahomes has 1:45 roughly to take his team down for a winning fg. You’re confident that Bills would be able to stop him?

 

Whenever this topic gets discussed it’s always all the other part of the team that needs improving except the main part. Allen is a top 3 qb in the league but he does have room for improvement. Just like all other QBs, including the best guy in Mahomes. 
 

Edit:

Regarding your op I haven’t seen the national media crapping on Allen. I watch alot of national sports shows. The narrative of Allen is not being able to get past Mahomes in the playoffs. Even though Allen lost to Burrow that’s not really discussed at all. If you’re reading comments on Twitter and YouTube etc then it’s a different story and one that should be ignored. 

The Bills stopped Mahomes in the regular season on his last drive. It’s certainly possible. Confident? Not really, but would’ve loved to have the opportunity instead of a gut-wrenching missed FG that brought up bad memories. 

Edited April 1 by ChronicAndKnuckles

[transplantbillsfan]

6 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Thanks for this.  I don't disagree much - you raise some really good points.   

 

I don't think Josh being the ultimate tractor carrying his team, which he is, makes Josh a good QB.  Michael Vick carried his team, too.   What I said about Josh, and have said for a long time, is that his number one job is to execute the offense at a very high level, and although he improved a lot at it last season, he still isn't elite.  

 

I've said something like this before.   Maybe you've got 40 offensive plays in the game, and the QB's job on 30-32 of them is to execute the play as designed, on schedule, making the right decisions and quality throws on 100% of them.   Mahomes does that.  Burrow does that.  Brady did that.   On the other 8 or 10 plays, the QB has to bail his team out, go off script and make something happen.   Allen may be the best in the league at that, and only Mahomes compares with him.   And in that category that Burrow falls down.   He's more like Brock Purdy or Tua on steroids - he's superb at all the throws that he can make on script, but if the on-script play isn't there, things tend to fall apart with him.  

 

Josh needs to be better on those on-script plays.  

 

Here's the problem with on-script plays for a QB in the NFL:

 

The other 10 players on offense need to do their job and be on the same page as Allen.

 

So was it Allen or Gabe more to blame for multiple incompletenes along with a few interceptions on option routes that happened during the season? Was it Allen or Dawkins more to blame for the incomplete pass to Shakir at the end of the drive in the KC game? 

 

Multiple examples of this.

 

Also, I disagree on your assessment of Mahomes. Mahomes is just as scattershot as Allen is, if not moreso, at executing plays as designed and on schedule. 

 

I think your assessment of Allen lacks the nuanced focus of what's actually happening on the OL. 

 

Which statement here do you think is more true:

 

Josh Allen has let down his OL throughout his career by getting unnecessarily sacked and pressured when he could have gotten the ball to the WR as determined by the playcall.

 

OR

 

Josh Allen has made his OLs look better throughout his career by avoiding pressure, sacks, and making incredible plays only he and maybe a couple other guys can make.

 

??????????????

 

Based on your argument, I would assume you believe statement 1 is the more true statement.

 

I'm not a film buff, but I listen to and read a lot of them. Based on your criteria of 75% (30-32 out of 40), I think Josh is actually already pretty Elite even in the category you don't think he is.

 

Frankly, I also don't think that when your QB rips off an unscripted 50+ yard TD run in a playoff game that it's an indication of anything other than greatness.

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

Butting in here, but I think you're both right.   It is certainly true that Allen's performances in the playoffs have never been the principal reason for losses.  There are plenty of fingers to point in a lot of directions, and Allen may not even have been the #1 suspect. 

 

And while I'm not convinced Allen should have thrown for the first down instead targeting Shakir, I am absolutely sure that his mastery of the mental game is what Allen needs.  That's what will define his true greatness.   And just because he hasn't necessarily crapped the bed in the playoffs, having a more effective QB managing the game will make the regular season easier, make it possible to coast into division championships instead of scrambling to get there, make him tougher to game plan for, etc. etc. etc.   

 

I have no doubt Allen needs to get better. 

 

How about his supporting cast and coaching?

[Billsatlastin2018]

16 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Where is all this negative talk about Josh?   I haven't heard it, but I don't watch or listen to many of the sports shows. 

 

I've said over and over here that Josh needs to get better.  For all his extraordinary talents, what wins in the NFL is consistent execution of the play that is called, with the right choices and with accurate throws.   Mahomes and Burrows both are better than Josh in that category.  Where Josh excels is on the six to ten plays where things break down and you need someone to make a play.  Josh is outstanding then.  It's the other plays where he needs to be better. 

On the first most critical Bills-Chiefs games, I have long ago made my decision about who was responsible for that HO Shame FUBAR- ‘13 seconds’!

That’s ALL on McD.

 

But I am interested in your opinion on the second one- last January. The Bills took over with 8:23 to go and dink and dunked down the field over 16 plays and chewing up about 7 minutes. Up to 2:42 to go, they were executing the classic game management to beat Mahomes. Score with seconds or no seconds to go ala the @Ravens rain game a few years back.

 

And then, they lost their focus and collective minds. Because giving the ball back to Mahomes with 2TOs and 1:30 would have been asinine. oNLY Allen should have been running on First Down torun that clock down. And at the 2MW, the ONLY intention, should have been to make that final First Down and have the Chiefs burn their TOs.

 

Leaving the Bills, at almost worst- a short FG to tie or the killer TD with seconds to go.

 

My question. Was that Allen who deviated from that plan or if not, whom?

Why did they try and score on 2nd Down?

[90sBills]

17 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

The Bills stopped Mahomes in the regular season on his last drive. It’s certainly possible. Confident? Not really, but would’ve loved to have the opportunity instead of a gut-wrenching missed FG that brought up bad memories. 

If it wasn’t clear before it should be absolutely clear now that Mahomes and KC is different in the playoffs when it’s win or go home. He and KC have a survival gear that’s not present with the Bills. Also their offense was moving the ball at will throughout the game so to think they wouldn’t be able to at the end is kinda wishful. Look how easily they picked up that 1st to close out after the missed fg. 
 

So yeah let’s just disregard all those regular season games against KC because they mean squat when it comes down to crunch time. We keep touting those regular season wins against them and some fans were overly confident before this last game. Hopefully this latest lesson reminder will stick going forward. 

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

I’m sorry but I disagree. Lamar as a 2 time MVP getter is pretty much a lock for HoF.

 

I think Allen and Lamar will both be in there.

 

I agree with you regarding Lamar, but I think it's stupid that he's probably more of a lock for the HOF than Josh right now.

 

Josh has almost 60 more TDs over the span of his career (both drafted in 2018), lots more wins, lots more total yards, lots more 4th Quarter Comebacks, lots more Game Winning Drives, lots more playoff wins, etc.

 

Yet....

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I agree with you regarding Lamar, but I think it's stupid that he's probably more of a lock for the HOF than Josh right now.

 

Josh has almost 60 more TDs over the span of his career (both drafted in 2018), lots more wins, lots more total yards, lots more 4th Quarter Comebacks, lots more Game Winning Drives, lots more playoff wins, etc.

 

Yet....

Hardware just matters to the HoF. I don’t think there’s a 2 time MVP who ISN’T in the HoF.

 

it’s sorta like the old Eli Manning debate. Was he a HoF player year after year? No. Does winning two SB’s almost assuredly get him in? YUP.

[Chicken Boo]

You know what will help him get that elusive Super Bowl ring? 

 

A defensive end at #28 on April 25th.  That's what I've been told.  😒

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

22 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

by the media and non-Bills fans seems to be the trend this offseason. He’s getting the label of a guy that can’t and never will get it done. A “poor man’s Roethlisberger” or Phillip Rivers (who I think he’s already surpassed in 6 years.) Guys like Lamar Jackson get flack, but the flat out hating of Allen has been absolutely ridiculous lately and it’s everywhere, I’m not really bothered by it, I’m just wondering where it’s all coming from? Ignorance and sheep mentality? Whether he sniffs a SB in his life time or not, he’s going to be a HOFer on pure numbers alone. 
 

I’ve watched every one of his games as most of us have and he’s clearly not the problem. The turnover stat is so overblown and is on par w/ most of the top QBs in the league. 78 picks to Mahomes 63 over 6 years. That’s 2.5 more interceptions per season than Mahomes if you average it out. Not really that much in a 17 game span and most of them don’t usually affect the outcome of the game as the Bills have one of the best regular season records in the NFL since Allen was drafted. 

 

Who's criticizing Josh Allen? Give me names.

 

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I agree with you regarding Lamar, but I think it's stupid that he's probably more of a lock for the HOF than Josh right now.

 

Josh has almost 60 more TDs over the span of his career (both drafted in 2018), lots more wins, lots more total yards, lots more 4th Quarter Comebacks, lots more Game Winning Drives, lots more playoff wins, etc.

 

Yet....

Josh and Lamar are both stone cold killers when it comes to division titles, rushing TD's, and wild card playoff games.  

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Where is all this negative talk about Josh?   I haven't heard it, but I don't watch or listen to many of the sports shows. 

 

I've said over and over here that Josh needs to get better.  For all his extraordinary talents, what wins in the NFL is consistent execution of the play that is called, with the right choices and with accurate throws.   Mahomes and Burrows both are better than Josh in that category.  Where Josh excels is on the six to ten plays where things break down and you need someone to make a play.  Josh is outstanding then.  It's the other plays where he needs to be better. 

 

 

Yeah, I haven't heard it either, and I do listen to some sports shows.

 

You're right on target. He's sensational, and he could be even better, particularly at just executing the plays as they're drawn up.

 

9 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Josh and Lamar are both stone cold killers when it comes to division titles, rushing TD's, and wild card playoff games.  

 

 

This is stupid.

 

Like Allen wasn't good enough in the 13 seconds game? Nonsense.

 

 

Edited April 1 by Thurman#1

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Josh needs to and can play better.

Turnovers are his biggest issue.

His deep ball was garbage last year. Maybe that was the shoulder.

His WR screen throws are abysmal. 

 

Not much else to work on.

 

What is McDermott going up work on to get better?

 

 

[Mikie2times]

13 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yeah, I haven't heard it either, and I do listen to some sports shows.

 

You're right on target. He's sensational, and he could be even better, particularly at just executing the plays as they're drawn up.

 

 

 

This is stupid.

 

Like Allen wasn't good enough in the 13 seconds game? Nonsense.

 

 

This thread is like the rest of the Josh Allen is hated threads. Look at his playoff stats. Look at his total TD's. He's the best in the NFL. Meanwhile we can't even get to an AFC championship game. The only comeback playoff anything we have is a game we lost and cling to like a 4 year and his teddy bear. A lot of reasons why and sorry to break to you but until these things don't happen with freakish consistency or we have a game winning playoff drive maybe, just maybe, Josh is among the reasons. Unthinkable I know.   

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

1 hour ago, 90sBills said:

If it wasn’t clear before it should be absolutely clear now that Mahomes and KC is different in the playoffs when it’s win or go home. He and KC have a survival gear that’s not present with the Bills. Also their offense was moving the ball at will throughout the game so to think they wouldn’t be able to at the end is kinda wishful. Look how easily they picked up that 1st to close out after the missed fg. 
 

So yeah let’s just disregard all those regular season games against KC because they mean squat when it comes down to crunch time. We keep touting those regular season wins against them and some fans were overly confident before this last game. Hopefully this latest lesson reminder will stick going forward. 

Well, you gotta start somewhere. Seeding is crucial so those regular season games were still high stakes. 

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Well, you gotta start somewhere. Seeding is crucial so those regular season games were still high stakes. 

Is it really that crucial?

[90sBills]

5 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Is it really that crucial?

Not when the team keeps losing home playoffs games. lol. 

[SaulGoodman]

14 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

All over social media. Reddit, FB, Twitter or whatever the F it’s called these days, it’s literally allover every comment section that has anything to do with Josh Allen or the Bills. Way more hate since the playoff loss. Allen kind of went from a hero to hated pretty fast. 

They’re both early in their primes. Things can turn around if McD can pull his head out of his *** and build a playoff caliber defense. 

 

So…you expected Allen to be the one player on the planet (including Mahomes) who isn’t bashed on social media? 😆

[oldmanfan]

10 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

So that one thing makes Josh the reason as to why we haven't beaten anything but crap teams in the playoffs his fault then?  Well, OK.  I suppose if that's how you view it.  

 

Which game/play are we talking about by the way?  
 

I guess we'll have to move on to a QB that never misses a pass and one that runs with a little more pizazz than Allen.  

 

 

People are trying to have a reasonable discussion, but you insist on hijacking it with this kind of hyperbolic nonsense.

 

For the Bills to win a Lombardi ALL aspects of the team must improve, coaching, player performance etc.  That includes the QB.

[Utah John]

I haven't seen any of the Josh hate you referred to, but last season was not a good one for Josh.  True, he had some great games, particularly late in the season, but early on, he had some real stinkers.  Since the Bills were on national TV so often, people saw those early games and put Josh into the reject category, and there he stayed the rest of the season despite his great play later.  

 

As others have said, he needs to be more consistent when the plays are there to be made, and still be the wrecking ball we know he can be, when the situation calls for it.

[Gregg]

6 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Josh needs to and can play better.

Turnovers are his biggest issue.

His deep ball was garbage last year. Maybe that was the shoulder.

His WR screen throws are abysmal. 

 

Not much else to work on.

 

What is McDermott going up work on to get better?

 

 

 

Given his style of play Allen will always have his share of turnovers. He is probably good for around 15 INT's a year. His style is a lot like Favre. He has a gunslinger mentality who will take chances. That is a big reason why he makes so many great plays but the downside to that is we will have to live with his turnovers from time to time. But the good far outweighs the bad.

[Jimmy Harris 69]

[strive_for_five_guy]

6 hours ago, 90sBills said:

Not when the team keeps losing home playoffs games. lol. 

Totally agree.  We really haven’t gotten bounced from the playoffs because of seeding for a while now.  Very easily could/should have won 13 seconds even though that was on the road.  And then we couldn’t stop the run against the Bengals and Chiefs two years in a row at home.  This year the offense kept it close throughout, but couldn’t pull it out in the end.  Based on FA signings so far, shoring up the run defense seems to be a priority but we’ll see next year if that piece actually pans out for them.

[78thealltimegreat]

Hatred of Allen is because other teams don’t have him and the Bills do.

Put Josh Allen on the Dallas Cowboys and not even Mike McCarthy or Jerry Jones could screw it up. 
The thing about Josh is he’s so damn likable and not arrogant I honestly wish he was since he can play at a level few in the NfL can even touch. 
In addition he’s also got an A list movie actress pretty much as his future wife which plays into the envy of some people as well. 

[Chaos]

23 hours ago, Dillenger4 said:

Josh is a stud at QB. He is top 5 no doubt.

But the "other" fans in the NFL think he is rough around the edges. His accuracy shows, at times, that he is inconsistent which we all see. He can't hit the long ball with "touch" is another comment I hear a lot. And he doesn't see the field as well as other top QB's, hence the missed open WR's we see in many games. But he can ball! And I'll take that all day.

Now just win one baby!

What people call “lack of accuracy “ for Josh means “not alway perfect “. He is among the most accurate QBs in the NFL. 

[Shaw66]

8 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Here's the problem with on-script plays for a QB in the NFL:

 

The other 10 players on offense need to do their job and be on the same page as Allen.

 

So was it Allen or Gabe more to blame for multiple incompletenes along with a few interceptions on option routes that happened during the season? Was it Allen or Dawkins more to blame for the incomplete pass to Shakir at the end of the drive in the KC game? 

 

Multiple examples of this.

 

Also, I disagree on your assessment of Mahomes. Mahomes is just as scattershot as Allen is, if not moreso, at executing plays as designed and on schedule. 

 

I think your assessment of Allen lacks the nuanced focus of what's actually happening on the OL. 

 

Which statement here do you think is more true:

 

Josh Allen has let down his OL throughout his career by getting unnecessarily sacked and pressured when he could have gotten the ball to the WR as determined by the playcall.

 

OR

 

Josh Allen has made his OLs look better throughout his career by avoiding pressure, sacks, and making incredible plays only he and maybe a couple other guys can make.

 

??????????????

 

Based on your argument, I would assume you believe statement 1 is the more true statement.

 

I'm not a film buff, but I listen to and read a lot of them. Based on your criteria of 75% (30-32 out of 40), I think Josh is actually already pretty Elite even in the category you don't think he is.

 

Frankly, I also don't think that when your QB rips off an unscripted 50+ yard TD run in a playoff game that it's an indication of anything other than greatness.

 

How about his supporting cast and coaching?

This is completely off the subject.  This thread started out about Josh and whether he's being fairly or unfairly criticized.  It evolved, a bit, into whether Josh does his job as well as he should.   You're talking about who should bear the responsibility when the team underperforms.   That is a completely different subject. 

 

Your bolded language makes the point.  Who ever has had a job where their job performance is measured relative to how some other employee did their job?  No one, that's who.  "Well, General Custer, it is unfortunate about that battle, but you outperformed your soldiers that day, so you get an A for the Little Bighorn."

 

Josh, like every quarterback, must be evaluated on objective performance criteria.  Fans to a great extent, and coaches to some extent, do it based on common data, like completion percentage, yards per completion, etc.  But I think that teams and coaches also use far more sophisticated criteria, objective and subjective.  Each play is evaluated by what Josh was supposed to do, and what he actually did.  In a perfect world, your QB does what he is supposed to do 100% of the time.   That's executing the offense.  

 

What fans tend to do with Josh is overemphasize what he accomplishes off script, and particularly overemphasize the WOW! off-script plays.  Nobody claims that Josh is better than Tom Brady, but Josh's off-script percentage is almost certainly better than Brady's.  Brady gave up on plays all the time - when it went off script, particularly if he had pressure on him, he went down. 

 

Josh's off-script plays are good and important, but more important is to get a very high percentage on the on-script plays.  One measure of success on on-script plays is whether you got positive yardage.  I've said often that choosing the 30-yard throw with a 50% completion probability is not as good a decision as the 8-yard throw with an 85% completion probability.   Stringing together positive plays is vey important in a league where the defenses are designed to deny big plays.  And, in 2023, particularly early in the season, we saw Josh doing just that - he had a very high completion percentage in the first five or six games of the season, taking the easy, short throw over and over.  The yards piled up, and the Bills rolled over opponents.  

 

None of that has anything to do with how well the linebackers played, or even how well the offensive line played.   Even when the line sucks, Josh's performance is graded on what he's supposed to do under the circumstances.   When someone misses a block and Josh throws the ball away to avoid a sack, the coaches don't just ignore that play for evaluation purposes.  He's evaluated on whether he should have seen something presnap, he's evaluated on whether he looked soon enough to the side where the rush was coming from, he's evaluated on whether he had a hot read that he should have gone to instead of just throwing it away.   

 

I believe that in that kind of evaluation scheme, detailed, critical evaluation of every aspect of the QB's decision making and physical performance, Josh's grades are good but not yet great.  I also believe that he's made steady progress toward great.  I think he's improved virtually every season.  2023 was his best so far, and he isn't done yet.  

[Shaw66]

45 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Given his style of play Allen will always have his share of turnovers. He is probably good for around 15 INT's a year. His style is a lot like Favre. He has a gunslinger mentality who will take chances. That is a big reason why he makes so many great plays but the downside to that is we will have to live with his turnovers from time to time. But the good far outweighs the bad.

I've always thought this philosophy is wrong, for the reasons I've just stated.  Success in the NFL is dependent on a high percentage of positive plays.   In football, the team game that requires more teamwork and more coordination than any other sport, a player who makes big plays by going off script and who, as a result, makes big mistakes from time to time, is a player who contributes to your failure, not to your success.  With 30 seconds to go in the game, down four points and on the opponents' 30 yard line, an interception on a throw into the end zone is NEVER a good play.   NEVER.   If your QB's "style of play" is to go for it, you have the wrong quarterback.   Unless it is literally the last play of the game, every coach wants his QB to make the right play, not the high-risk, high-reward play. 

[Gregg]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I've always thought this philosophy is wrong, for the reasons I've just stated.  Success in the NFL is dependent on a high percentage of positive plays.   In football, the team game that requires more teamwork and more coordination than any other sport, a player who makes big plays by going off script and who, as a result, makes big mistakes from time to time, is a player who contributes to your failure, not to your success.  With 30 seconds to go in the game, down four points and on the opponents' 30 yard line, an interception on a throw into the end zone is NEVER a good play.   NEVER.   If your QB's "style of play" is to go for it, you have the wrong quarterback.   Unless it is literally the last play of the game, every coach wants his QB to make the right play, not the high-risk, high-reward play. 

 

I agree with you, but I was just pointing out that Allen is aggressive out there and will take chances. Unfortunately, that will lead to turnovers sometimes. I would be shocked if Allen had a year where he has less than 10 INT's.

[Mister Defense]

On 3/31/2024 at 2:22 AM, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

by the media and non-Bills fans seems to be the trend this offseason. He’s getting the label of a guy that can’t and never will get it done. A “poor man’s Roethlisberger” or Phillip Rivers (who I think he’s already surpassed in 6 years.) Guys like Lamar Jackson get flack, but the flat out hating of Allen has been absolutely ridiculous lately and it’s everywhere, I’m not really bothered by it, I’m just wondering where it’s all coming from? Ignorance and sheep mentality? Whether he sniffs a SB in his life time or not, he’s going to be a HOFer on pure numbers alone. 
 

I’ve watched every one of his games as most of us have and he’s clearly not the problem. The turnover stat is so overblown and is on par w/ most of the top QBs in the league. 78 picks to Mahomes 63 over 6 years. That’s 2.5 more interceptions per season than Mahomes if you average it out. Not really that much in a 17 game span and most of them don’t usually affect the outcome of the game as the Bills have one of the best regular season records in the NFL since Allen was drafted. 

 

Okay, while you seem to post this nonsense in support of Allen, I think you are doing exactly the opposite, and undermining him.

 

Why give voice to those saying the above things that I have put in bold?

 

And who are they--who said the Rothlisberger comment?  Who said the River's comment?

 

You then ask us, "Where's it all coming from?"  Good question...

 

You tell us, please!,  as it your post, your info, and we assume you are not just making it all up.  And  please do so right after you read this: who, specifically, and not just the broad generalization you provide--in the "media"?

 

I have never read or heard those comments in any media. I am not doubting you, that  the comments exist, but want to know who said those things--? How can anyone on this board respond to this post if you don't tell us the source, who said them?

 

If not, to me, this kind of post does the exact opposite of supporting of Allen, it undermines him.  Now, it  is just throwing that nonsense out into the ether as if it was from several, many?, legitimate media sources.

 

So, I am looking forward to finding out the answers to these questions. There is no way to answer your questions without the details, sources; the context.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

 

I agree with you, but I was just pointing out that Allen is aggressive out there and will take chances. Unfortunately, that will lead to turnovers sometimes. I would be shocked if Allen had a year where he has less than 10 INT's.

I won't be shocked. It's coming.