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Bills @ Bengals postgame thread


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Just now, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Everyone’s giving the defense credit here. The defense was on skates from the start. Every 3rd down guys were wide open. Anything they wanted they had. I’m not giving them any credit here. The Bengals started playing with their food and kept us in it. There was zero resistance by this defense all night in big spots. I’m not going to just act Like this defense isn’t a problem.

 

They held the Bengals to 3 points in the second half.  They adjusted and kept us in the game when they are very much a mash unit.

Now add Hyde and Bernard to the injury list when we are already missing key contributors.  This was a Joe Burrow lead offense that beat down SF healthy defense the week prior.

 

Our offense is the reason why we aren't winning.

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10 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

They held the Bengals to 3 points in the second half.  They adjusted and kept us in the game when they are very much a mash unit.

Now add Hyde and Bernard to the injury list when we are already missing key contributors.  This was a Joe Burrow lead offense that beat down SF healthy defense the week prior.

 

Our offense is the reason why we aren't winning.

 

I'd say it's less about the Bills defence keeping them to 3 points and more the Bengals being incapable of taking advantage of the banged up Bills D.  Remember, Mac Jones carved this team up.

 

The Bengals played a very "Billsy" game in that they looked dominant and should have run away with the game, but couldn't close it out and let the Bills hang around.

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31 minutes ago, JohnnyBuffalo said:

If this team is to do anything with Josh Allen as their QB they need to address the O line.    If there was any semblance of run game and better pass blocking Josh is lights out.   He is more gifted than all the other QBs but he’s exactly the same as them with pressure…every QB makes mistakes with constant pressure.    
 

The O line is what needs addressing first above ALL else.  

They did address it with McGovern and Torrence.  

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Just now, Heels20X6 said:

 

I'd say it's less about the Bills defence keeping them to 3 points and more the Bengals being incapable of taking advantage of the banged up Bills D.  Remember, Mac Jones carved this team up.

 

The Bengals played a very "Billsy" game in that they looked dominant and should have run away with the game, but couldn't close it out and let the Bills hang around.

 

The defense has had one bad game all year and that was against the Pats.  When you hold the Bengals to 1 TD on their last 7 drives, the defense gets credit.  

 

The offense should be the one stepping up with the injuries we have on defense but it's the opposite.

 

We are averaging 20 ppg in the last 5 games and 3 of those defenses weren't good.  We are a bottom 10 offense in the NFL in the last 5 games.

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21 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Everyone’s giving the defense credit here. The defense was on skates from the start. Every 3rd down guys were wide open. Anything they wanted they had. I’m not giving them any credit here. The Bengals started playing with their food and kept us in it. There was zero resistance by this defense all night in big spots. I’m not going to just act Like this defense isn’t a problem.

I agree - but let's keep in mind we are without Milano, Jones, Bernard was out in first Q last night, Tre White (although hes a wimp). It's a massive hit to our D. Our depth sucks and it shows.

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2 minutes ago, Dillenger4 said:

I agree - but let's keep in mind we are without Milano, Jones, Bernard was out in first Q last night, Tre White (although hes a wimp). It's a massive hit to our D. Our depth sucks and it shows.

This falls on Beane and the FO.  But why does our depth suck?

 

Is the payroll "top heavy" which results in not being able to pay for better depth players?

Is it bad drafting, picking the wrong players, reaching for need?

Is it bad free agent acquisitions, targeting the wrong players?

Is it over-paying by re-signing players on the roster where few to any of them are outperforming their pay level?

Is it just the injuries and the way it goes with the salary cap system in the NFL when you have a lot of key players hurt?

All the above and this roster is just poorly constructed?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Dillenger4 said:

I agree - but let's keep in mind we are without Milano, Jones, Bernard was out in first Q last night, Tre White (although hes a wimp). It's a massive hit to our D. Our depth sucks and it shows.

I get it and that sucks but this team just matched all over us all 3x we saw them and those guys were out there for other games. This coach just won’t come off this zone and Burrow is going to shred the ***** out of it every time.

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Just now, All_Pro_Bills said:

This falls on Beane and the FO.  But why does our depth suck?

 

Is the payroll "top heavy" which results in not being able to pay for better depth players?

Is it bad drafting, picking the wrong players, reaching for need?

Is it bad free agent acquisitions, targeting the wrong players?

Is it over-paying by re-signing players on the roster where few to any of them are outperforming their pay level?

Is it just the injuries and the way it goes with the salary cap system in the NFL when you have a lot of key players hurt?

All the above and this roster is just poorly constructed?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Things change in a heartbeat in football. The sport is unforgiving, both physically and mentally. You blow off a draft or two because you think you're set, and you'll end up where Beane was buying up aging free agents and watching their careers dissipate seemingly immediately. Miller and Floyd are basically eating roster spots at the moment. Hyde and Poyer are on the backside of their careers. You could have a succession plan, but you've pissed away draft picks like Elam and all the ones you've traded to move up for players that likely would have been there at the original pick.

 

I think most GM's are that way. Beane just bit it when we found out McDermott had no clue on strategy in < 15 seconds, and ever since we've been weak-spined and outphysical'ed by the teams that can.

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The Von signing was our "going all in".  At least the major bit of it.

 

It didn't pan out and now we're seeing the repercussions.  I seriously doubt we make playoffs, and if we do, it's besting Miami for the AFCE.  They have a pretty cake schedule IMO.

 

We need to rebuild.  It will take 3-4 years.  THEN, we'll have a second window with Allen to win it.  If not, we will likely be back to the drought era days.

 

13 seconds was the window.

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5 minutes ago, pocoboy said:

 

Things change in a heartbeat in football. The sport is unforgiving, both physically and mentally. You blow off a draft or two because you think you're set, and you'll end up where Beane was buying up aging free agents and watching their careers dissipate seemingly immediately. Miller and Floyd are basically eating roster spots at the moment. Hyde and Poyer are on the backside of their careers. You could have a succession plan, but you've pissed away draft picks like Elam and all the ones you've traded to move up for players that likely would have been there at the original pick.

 

I think most GM's are that way. Beane just bit it when we found out McDermott had no clue on strategy in < 15 seconds, and ever since we've been weak-spined and outphysical'ed by the teams that can.

Unfortunately this is looking more and more like it's true.

 

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9 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

You won’t win many games where you have 2+ turnovers and 10 points through 3 quarters.

 

Once again, this is on the offense. 

I could buy this argument if the Bills had emphasized their offense to the same extent that the other lead contenders have.  But the reality is that they have not. 

 

I'm not sure why some Bills fans expect the offense to be incredibly productive game after game when besides Allen & Diggs (and maybe soon Kincaid) the unit is made up of average and below average talent?  Throw in that the offensive coaching is not exactly world beating and IMO you're blaming an offense that is not built to dominate and win games.  That honor goes to the defense which for a number of reasons including bad FA signings, bad draft picks, poor coaching and injuries hasn't come close to living up to what needs to do.

 

It's water under the bridge but in 2019 the Bills needed to go the route that the Bengal's, Eagles, Dolphins, Cowboys, 49's and Chiefs have gone.  They didn't and now because Allen is so often brilliant and makes us think that the offense is better then it really is, we put the responsibility and blame on that unit for coming up short. I just don't buy it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Casey D said:

They did address it with McGovern and Torrence.  

Who have both played poorly.

Torrence certainly has potential. McGovern just wasn't very good before we got him, and he's not very good now. Add to that the perpetual "project" guy in Spencer Brown, and you still have a poor offensive line.

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15 minutes ago, Blackbeard said:

The Von signing was our "going all in".  At least the major bit of it.

 

It didn't pan out and now we're seeing the repercussions.  I seriously doubt we make playoffs, and if we do, it's besting Miami for the AFCE.  They have a pretty cake schedule IMO.

 

We need to rebuild.  It will take 3-4 years.  THEN, we'll have a second window with Allen to win it.  If not, we will likely be back to the drought era days.

 

13 seconds was the window.

THIS! N

Nobody predicted it but the Von Miller signing is proving to be a HUGE mistake for so many reasons. 

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53 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:


Only push back I have on this is that was the third or fourth time Kincaid went airborne like that to pick up extra yardage. Agreed though, a savy vet picked up on a rookie leaving himself vulnerable to a fumble. 

That was a heck of timed punch out!    Yeah I was angry with Kincaid there.   Have to have big picture awareness and have both arms over that ball.  5 extra yards there isn’t enough to risk injury and possession!

 

Tough way to be reminded of both.  

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1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I could buy this argument if the Bills had emphasized their offense to the same extent that the other lead contenders have.  But the reality is that they have not. 

 

I'm not sure why some Bills fans expect the offense to be incredibly productive game after game when besides Allen & Diggs (and maybe soon Kincaid) the unit is made up of average and below average talent?  Throw in that the offensive coaching is not exactly world beating and IMO you're blaming an offense that is not built to dominate and win games.  That honor goes to the defense which for a number of reasons including bad FA signings, bad draft picks, poor coaching and injuries hasn't come close to living up to what needs to do.

 

It's water under the bridge but in 2019 the Bills needed to go the route that the Bengal's, Eagles, Dolphins, Cowboys, 49's and Chiefs have gone.  They didn't and now because Allen is so often brilliant and makes us think that the offense is better then it really is, we put the responsibility and blame on that unit for coming up short. I just don't buy it.


Bills fans expect an offense with Allen, Diggs, and a first round pass catcher to be productive… and they should. For the last 4 games they have not scored more than 10 points in the first 3/4 of the game. That’s bad for any offense, and especially for one with a top 5 QB and without any significant injuries.
 

This defense, already decimated by injuries, is constantly on the field. Time of possession is wildly in opponents’

favor. Coach is doing no favors blitzing guys like Burrow when success has mostly been had against him by rushing three. But they held a top offense last night to an amount of points our offense should be able to match or best. Including basically shutting them down second half. 

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22 minutes ago, JohnnyBuffalo said:

You feel that was enough?   The line isn’t giving up pressure with 4 rushing or worse less?   You feel they are able to run the ball when needed?

I had hope for both these guys but it's clear that they were halfway measures with a bit of wishing & hoping thrown in.  And this is a cavalier way to treat the 2nd most important offensive unit after QB.  But the Bills brain trust has been trying to build an O line based on hopes & wishes, and failing at it, for years.  

 

Over time I do believe that Torrence will be a solid guard.  And for sure he's an upgrade over Safold.  But then again by most measures Safold was the worst starting guard in the NFL last season.

 

How many 1st round picks or high profile O line signings have the Bills made since 2019?  How does this compare with the other offensive minded teams? 

 

 

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31 minutes ago, JohnnyBuffalo said:

You feel that was enough?   The line isn’t giving up pressure with 4 rushing or worse less?   You feel they are able to run the ball when needed?

I did, but I agree that the performance, especially running the ball, leaves a lot to be desired.  OLs everywhere are not great however, and it is hard to have All-Pros at every position.  I think you and I agree, it's just that they thought they had fixed it but they have not.

11 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Who have both played poorly.

Torrence certainly has potential. McGovern just wasn't very good before we got him, and he's not very good now. Add to that the perpetual "project" guy in Spencer Brown, and you still have a poor offensive line.

Well they paid McGovern like he was good, and most reviews I saw of his play for Dallas were good.  The line seemed fine early on, but has regressed, like most of the team.

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8 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Kromer, Shula, Brady, and Boras are all experienced offensive coaches who have called plays. Fact.

None of them are coordinators with a scheme that they are masters of.  That is what Allen deserves.  They need a coordinator to come in who has a proven system, someone who is in demand.  Those guys have called plays and that is not what I am talking about and none of them were really that great at it and that is why they are position coaches here essentially.

 

This team went halfway in with a new philosophy.  They needed more tight ends who can block.  Last night we saw they are somewhere in between what they think they are and what they want to be.  That is in part the knox injury and on the coaches.  

 

the offensive line played the whole game going backwards at the snap.  That is an absurd way to play football in the nfl.

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1 minute ago, Casey D said:

I did, but I agree that the performance, especially running the ball, leaves a lot to be desired.  OLs everywhere are not great however, and it is hard to have All-Pros at every position.  I think you and I agree, it's just that they thought they had fixed it but they have not.

 

The offensive conundrum at the moment is all on the relationship between Ken Dorsey and Josh Allen. Steps:

 

1) OC draws up plays that (presumably) each have a purpose/plan.

2) OC effectively communicates that purpose/plan to QB, so when each play is called the QB knows exactly how to maximize the play's effectiveness.

3) QB calls play

4) QB carries out instructions to maximize play.

 

There are some in-between points too - the blocking/protection, rushers, targets all have points that would synergize with the QB's points to bring about the best chance of a play to work.

 

I've long suspected that point #2 is the weak link.

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5 minutes ago, Casey D said:

Well they paid McGovern like he was good, and most reviews I saw of his play for Dallas were good.  The line seemed fine early on, but has regressed, like most of the team.

They've been figured out. When the fans can call out the tendencies of the OC with a high degree of accuracy imagine what a team doing 30+ hours of film study can do. 

Dorsey can't innovate or pivot in a meaningful way. Execution is part of it, but the execution is excruciatingly difficult when the other team knows exactly what you're trying to do.  It's why we look better up-tempo, because Dorsey has no time to call the same stupid shotgun run.   

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Just now, JohnBonhamRocks said:


Bills fans expect an offense with Allen, Diggs, and a first round pass catcher to be productive… and they should. For the last 4 games they have not scored more than 10 points in the first 3/4 of the game. That’s bad for any offense, and especially for one with a top 5 QB and without any significant injuries.
 

This defense, already decimated by injuries, is constantly on the field. Time of possession is wildly in opponents’

favor. Coach is doing no favors blitzing guys like Burrow when success has mostly been had against him by rushing three. But they held a top offense last night to an amount of points our offense should be able to match or best. Including basically shutting them down second half. 

Sure Allen and Diggs are top 5 but who else on the O is even above average? And yes I have high hopes for Kincaid but he's not there yet.

 

The injury's on D suck but when you put so many eggs in one basket and then drop the basket what do you expect to happen?

 

I think the difference between how I look at this and you do is that my expectation of the offense is a lot lower then yours is.  I can't help but notice that again our O line is below average; that we don't have any dangerous weapons beyond Diggs (Kincaid is getting close); the coaching is average at best and the franchise has made a conscious decision to focus more on the D then the O. 

 

Like a lot of Bills fans I was fooled by the sheer productivity and brilliance of Allen.  He fooled us into thinking we had a great offense instead of a unicorn at QB. And we've been warned by analyst after analyst who said that our inability to run the ball was not sustainable; that our over reliance on Allen was not sustainable; and that we had to improve our O line and get more play makers on the field.

 

We did try to address these short comings in the draft this year and it looks like it will pay off with Kincaid.  But it may be a case of to little to late.

 

 

 

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Just now, pocoboy said:

 

The offensive conundrum at the moment is all on the relationship between Ken Dorsey and Josh Allen. Steps:

 

1) OC draws up plays that (presumably) each have a purpose/plan.

2) OC effectively communicates that purpose/plan to QB, so when each play is called the QB knows exactly how to maximize the play's effectiveness.

3) QB calls play

4) QB carries out instructions to maximize play.

 

There are some in-between points too - the blocking/protection, rushers, targets all have points that would synergize with the QB's points to bring about the best chance of a play to work.

 

I've long suspected that point #2 is the weak link.

I never liked the idea of coordinators sitting in the stands.  A very easy first step to improving the offense might be to bring Dorsey down from the sky box and have him on the sideline with the QB and the offense.  If there's a problem or some confusion face-to-face back-and-forth discussion is more effective.  And when Allen is on the sidelines sitting by himself instead of this the OC would be planted in the seat right next to him.  Focused and engaged. 

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This team got bad, real bad, real quick.  D has been a pushover for a while. Josh made up for it by heroics.  Dorsey put a sulky on a racehorse.  Don’t forget we would not have been successful w/o McD in the first place.  May not win another game. Who are they going to beat?  Already lost to the Pats. How bad is that?  I don’t know the answer.  

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30 minutes ago, Casey D said:

I did, but I agree that the performance, especially running the ball, leaves a lot to be desired.  OLs everywhere are not great however, and it is hard to have All-Pros at every position.  I think you and I agree, it's just that they thought they had fixed it but they have not.

Well they paid McGovern like he was good, and most reviews I saw of his play for Dallas were good.  The line seemed fine early on, but has regressed, like most of the team.

Maybe.

I'll admit, I'm not the obsessive fan who watches the All 22s. We have some of those here, and I appreciate their insights.

PFF scores so far (I don't think these take yesterday into account):

 

Good (70+): Dawkins (76.5), Brown (70!)

Average-ish (mid 60s): Morse

Poor: McGovern (58.6), Torrence (60.5)

 

Yes, take it with a big boulder of salt. But my eye test says the middle of the line is a consistent problem, and that Brown's mobility makes him a good run blocker while that same lean length compromises him in pass protection.

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Sal is unlistenable right now.  Siezes on 1 mis-step of each caller to discredit and dismiss entire (legitimate) criticisms.  Also has go-to points that indicate everything is ok like they were 7-6 once in 2021.

 

Chris Brown was able to criticize this morning and he did not combust

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7 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

Sal is unlistenable right now.  Siezes on 1 mis-step of each caller to discredit and dismiss entire (legitimate) criticisms.  Also has go-to points that indicate everything is ok like they were 7-6 once in 2021.

 

Chris Brown was able to criticize this morning and he did not combust

 

Yeah it's tough to find optimism at the moment. You don't see a lot of urgency or drive on the field. Everybody looks tentative when the game is in the balance, afraid to make mistakes, but also wound so tight that mistakes are prevalent (see the 2nd half challenge last night).

 

I think McDermott knows he's losing the room. His "complementary football" line is pointing fingers. To call the guy who bails you out of many games the problem comes off as extremely defensive (no surprise for McDermott), as if he knows things are going into the ditch and he's blaming the driver when he was supposed to check the tire tread weeks ago.

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23 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Maybe.

I'll admit, I'm not the obsessive fan who watches the All 22s. We have some of those here, and I appreciate their insights.

PFF scores so far (I don't think these take yesterday into account):

 

Good (70+): Dawkins (76.5), Brown (70!)

Average-ish (mid 60s): Morse

Poor: McGovern (58.6), Torrence (60.5)

 

Yes, take it with a big boulder of salt. But my eye test says the middle of the line is a consistent problem, and that Brown's mobility makes him a good run blocker while that same lean length compromises him in pass protection.


Are we sure they haven’t muddled Brown and Torrence up?

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A lot of doom and gloom across the Atlantic…

Bengals are (now, this month) a better team than the Bills, so losing this one away from home by 6 points was not that surprising to me.  Too many parts of our team are only average or at best just above average, including our D since Milano went down. 

The most frustrating part for me is that, when it matters, we cannot run on teams.  Yes there is the odd game where it works, but overall, the Bills “pure running game”, by which I mean the combo of OL/running back(s) excluding QB runs has been poor for the best part of a decade.  Have we really had a RB in the past 10 years that was in let's say the top 10 of NFL RB’s ? Not in my opinion anyway.

I’m still relatively optimistic about reaching the play-offs.  I considered winning one of the 3 super tough road games in this stretch (Bengals, Eagles, Chiefs) would do it, provided we took care of business we should take care off (not a given I know). And I personally thought that of those 3 games, current form considered, Bengals was the toughest challenge.

On the other hand one has to wonder what we could achieve in the play-offs, and if not making them would long term be a better thing for this team, in that it may lead to some more drastic changes.  We seem to be stuck in some sort of limbo of hanging onto hope that this roster/coaches combo will lead us to the Superbowl, but even good teams need to insert some spark from time to time to. What that spark is to be I have my opinion just like anyone on this board, but I suppose that’s food for approximately 758 threads over the coming months…

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39 minutes ago, May Day 10 said:

Sal is unlistenable right now.  Siezes on 1 mis-step of each caller to discredit and dismiss entire (legitimate) criticisms.  Also has go-to points that indicate everything is ok like they were 7-6 once in 2021.

 

Chris Brown was able to criticize this morning and he did not combust

 

He is becoming John Murphy. I have wondered for a while if he can be impartial at all. He rides the team plane, as the sideline reporter the Bills help pay his mortgage. He gets short with anyone that isn't "it's gonna be fine". He just won't accept there are problems. 

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Steve Tasker just has zero grasp of reality in anything he’s saying. The guy just keeps saying the bengals have answers. Dafuk are we supposed to just be good with that? We aren’t supposed to be upset that we don’t have them? The guy will say how good we are in one breath then just make it like it’s no surprise we lose to the Jets with Zach Wilson.

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9 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Steve Tasker just has zero grasp of reality in anything he’s saying. The guy just keeps saying the bengals have answers. Dafuk are we supposed to just be good with that? We aren’t supposed to be upset that we don’t have them? The guy will say how good we are in one breath then just make it like it’s no surprise we lose to the Jets with Zach Wilson.

 

 

He made some very good points with:

 

"They are going to play a lot of good football"

 

And

 

"They are going to win 'a ton' more games."

 

 

Hard hitting analysis right there

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8 minutes ago, blitzboy54 said:

 

He is becoming John Murphy. I have wondered for a while if he can be impartial at all. He rides the team plane, as the sideline reporter the Bills help pay his mortgage. He gets short with anyone that isn't "it's gonna be fine". He just won't accept there are problems. 

 

His debate style/tactic is off-putting and transparent

 

Someone could call in and make a really good point, but slip up and say their red zone offense wasn't great or something.  Sal seizes on the mis-step, pointing out the rz offense is 4th in the league, say it loudly into the microphone 5 different ways for 4 minutes, and basically ignore ir gloss over the valid criticisms 

 

If someone does make an airtight call, he always "agree to disagree"

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Here's a frustrating stat - McDermott blitzed Burrow on 30.4% of pass plays. On those plays he went 10/14 for 158 yards.

 

We're the only defense I see that regularly blitzes without getting home. It's crazy. Every offensive line picks up our blitz without issue, meanwhile our pass protection scheme constantly fails against the blitz.

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Interesting day at TBD. Before the game, all we heard on here was that the Bills were going to get squashed because the Bengals are a bad matchup. Some said that it's not the end of the season even if they lose big. Then, the team goes out and loses by 6. Now, some people on here want to trade Josh Allen for picks. And this stuff is not coming from the usual suspects, but from usually positive posters. So, from what I gather, it would have been OK to lose by 24 but losing by 6 means fire everyone and trade the QB? 

Season 6 Ok GIF by Paramount+

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

Here's a frustrating stat - McDermott blitzed Burrow on 30.4% of pass plays. On those plays he went 10/14 for 158 yards.

 

We're the only defense I see that regularly blitzes without getting home. It's crazy. Every offensive line picks up our blitz without issue, meanwhile our pass protection scheme constantly fails against the blitz.

They got there a number of times and Burrow just Mahomesed his way out of it.

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2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Here's a frustrating stat - McDermott blitzed Burrow on 30.4% of pass plays. On those plays he went 10/14 for 158 yards.

 

We're the only defense I see that regularly blitzes without getting home. It's crazy. Every offensive line picks up our blitz without issue, meanwhile our pass protection scheme constantly fails against the blitz.


Plus, hasn’t the book on beating Burrow largely been about rushing 3 and playing tight coverage?

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9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Here's a frustrating stat - McDermott blitzed Burrow on 30.4% of pass plays. On those plays he went 10/14 for 158 yards.

 

We're the only defense I see that regularly blitzes without getting home. It's crazy. Every offensive line picks up our blitz without issue, meanwhile our pass protection scheme constantly fails against the blitz.

Once in a while they could try overloading one side of the formation to bring 4 of say 6 rushers from that side to overwhelm the blockers rather than nicely distribute the blitzes evenly across the line.

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