2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

[CincyBillsFan]

Prescott also made his bid today with 4 TD's.  The reality is while Jackson is likely to win MVP this might be the closest race we've seen in a while with 4 or 5 guys ALL getting appreciable votes.

 

 

[Punch]

If he had even average turnover luck, he might have had a stronger case. Allen's had one of the lowest turnover worthy play rates in the League all year, despite the turnovers. 

[Warcodered]

15 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Wouldn't exactly call it a bad game. Allen obviously won't win even though he has 15 more TDs than the guy who eventually will.

 

Anyone watching that game should understand the context of the turnovers by Allen. The lost fumble was stupid and 100% on him. The 1st Interception was pretty clearly on Davis, who (once again) should've read a zero blitz in his route. The other Interception was on Allen but was literally meaningless and actually a benefit for the offense since the defender chose to intercept a ball on 4th down... making for negative yardage for the Dolphin offense.

 

Allen’s dumbest play tonight was the one at the end of the 1st half to Ty Johnson preventing points on the board.

 

But all good... onto the playoffs!!!

 

The fumble? A guy was literally immediately in the pocket hitting the ball in his hands. 🤷‍♂️

[HalftimeAdjustment]

6 hours ago, Warcodered said:

The fumble? A guy was literally immediately in the pocket hitting the ball in his hands. 🤷‍♂️

 

I was premature in calling it a bad game. It did not start well with 2 INTs in the endzone, a strip sack, and a failed drive at the end of the 1st half. However he picked it up and also outplayed Tua.

[WNYFAN1]

All week all we heard on this board and Buff media was how depleted Miami's defense was.

 

Bills O scored 14.

[dickleyjones]

1 hour ago, WNYFAN1 said:

All week all we heard on this board and Buff media was how depleted Miami's defense was.

 

Bills O scored 14.

So is your conclusion that Miami's defense was in fact not depleted?

[Chaos]

In the game that mattered most, Josh was twice as good as a QB as Tua, and a better RB than Achane.   Josh Allen is the MVP of the NFL.

 

[UKBillFan]

Josh isn't MVP as the turnovers hurt him. Would still give to McCaffrey personally. But it is an absolute joke he isn't a Pro-Bowler.

[Thurman#1]

On 1/5/2024 at 1:48 AM, transplantbillsfan said:

 

2023 MVP: Lamar will win it with 15 fewer TDs than Josh Allen (end of season talk pg 75+)

 

 

As he should.

 

 

On 1/5/2024 at 1:09 AM, BullBuchanan said:

Well, it was a putrid day for Josh, so criticizing his "best" play really shouldn't be off the table. It was also just one of three plays criticized, but I like how everyone has cherry picked that one play to focus on and not the two throws he completely missed.

 

 

Putrid may be overstating it, but it sure wasn't good.

 

The defense gets most of the credit today.

[WNYFAN1]

1 hour ago, dickleyjones said:

So is your conclusion that Miami's defense was in fact not depleted?

Sure, that's one conclusion you could draw from this.

[H2o]

The only thing Josh is worried about is the Lombardi. Regular season MVP, Pro Bowl, whatever, whatever, it doesn't matter. He just wants to win. Whether he's putting up 426 total yds or a 100 total yds, the guy is just about that W. We've strung together quite a few of them in a row now, and against quality competition. Let them have their regular season accolades, and let our guy get that ring. 

[DapperCam]

I actually think Dak should win it. He has the volume and efficiency, and his team is #2 seed. I don’t really understand the infatuation with Jackson.

 

Seems like whoever drives the narratives for these things in the media has decided though (Disney?)

[UKBillFan]

3 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I actually think Dak should win it. He has the volume and efficiency, and his team is #2 seed. I don’t really understand the infatuation with Jackson.

 

Seems like whoever drives the narratives for these things in the media has decided though (Disney?)

 

I think the poor performances against the Bills may have cost him.

 

Worth noting he had five less turnovers than Josh but six fewer TDs.  Both got their teams to the number two seeds. Prescott does have higher pass completion and around 200 more yards. I don't think Josh should be in the MVP discussion, but I'm not sure about Jackson or Prescott either.

[Thurman#1]

47 minutes ago, H2o said:

The only thing Josh is worried about is the Lombardi. Regular season MVP, Pro Bowl, whatever, whatever, it doesn't matter. He just wants to win. Whether he's putting up 426 total yds or a 100 total yds, the guy is just about that W. We've strung together quite a few of them in a row now, and against quality competition. Let them have their regular season accolades, and let our guy get that ring. 

 

 

Oh my, yes!!

[Jerome007]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:09 AM, BullBuchanan said:

Well, it was a putrid day for Josh, so criticizing his "best" play really shouldn't be off the table. It was also just one of three plays criticized, but I like how everyone has cherry picked that one play to focus on and not the two throws he completely missed.

Putrid day? Maybe remind yourself that perfection doesn't exist? He sure made some  huge mistakes and the missed throw to Diggs was one of them, but he did so many great things too and willed himself and the team to victory.  To call that performance "putrid"... 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Jerome007

[BullBuchanan]

2 minutes ago, Jerome007 said:

Putrid day? Maybe remind yourself that perfection doesn't exist? He sure made some  huge mistakes and the missed throw to Diggs was one of them, but he did so many great things too and willed himself and the team to victory.  To call that performance "putrid"... 

 

 

He was 15-30, 0 TD, 1 INT, 2 Fumbles, a 53.3 passer rating.

He was objectively horrendous.

[Logic]

The moment Lamar threw 5 TDs and had a perfect passer rating against the Dolphins in the same week that Josh had a stinker against the Patriots, the MVP award was decided.

Had Josh had the game he had last night bit WITHOUT the three turnovers, then maybe -- just maybe -- he'd have had a shot.

As it is, Lamar is gonna win it.

It's okay, though, because Josh is gonna be hoisting the Super Bowl MVP trophy instead.

[Jerome007]

McCaffrey could have won it but got injured and wouldn't h ave played anyway since Sf got a bye. Sure, same thing for Lamar but RBs need more shine than QBs to win it. Which makes sense too. 

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, DapperCam said:

I actually think Dak should win it. He has the volume and efficiency, and his team is #2 seed. I don’t really understand the infatuation with Jackson.

 

Seems like whoever drives the narratives for these things in the media has decided though (Disney?)

Jackson beat Purdy and Prescott

Allen beat Prescott and Tua 

Tua beat Prescott 

 

Against the three of the Top QB in the NFL, Prescott and his team came small. 

 

Allen's crime is he lost to Mac Jones and Zach Wilson

[DapperCam]

1 hour ago, ganesh said:

Jackson beat Purdy and Prescott

Allen beat Prescott and Tua 

Tua beat Prescott 

 

Against the three of the Top QB in the NFL, Prescott and his team came small. 

 

Allen's crime is he lost to Mac Jones and Zach Wilson

It’s just a weird narrative because QBs don’t play each other. They play defenses.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

He was 15-30, 0 TD, 1 INT, 2 Fumbles, a 53.3 passer rating.

He was objectively horrendous.

Objectively there isn't a whole lot of objectivity in your post.  Did the Bills lose either fumble? No. And what about rushing stats?  They suddenly don't count for dual threat QB's like Allen?

 

 

[VW82]

Now we're claiming Josh didn't even have a bad game vs. Phins?? He had four turnovers including the one on downs to end the first half that robbed us of three points. We won because the defense generated two turnovers and shut out the Phins in the second half, and because Harty ran a punt return back 97 yards. 

 

I just don't understand why we need to distort the truth like this week after week. It's okay to admit Josh was all over the place this season, good and bad. You can't just look at TDs and nothing else with no context. 

 

Forget NFL MVP, the Bills defense was the MVP of the team this year.

[Alphadawg7]

Lamar is, and should be, the MVP.  The MVP award is not for who has the most passing stats.  

[Alphadawg7]

27 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Now we're claiming Josh didn't even have a bad game vs. Phins?? He had four turnovers including the one on downs to end the first half that robbed us of three points. We won because the defense generated two turnovers and shut out the Phins in the second half, and because Harty ran a punt return back 97 yards. 

 

I just don't understand why we need to distort the truth like this week after week. It's okay to admit Josh was all over the place this season, good and bad. You can't just look at TDs and nothing else with no context. 

 

Forget NFL MVP, the Bills defense was the MVP of the team this year.

 

Josh didn't have a bad "game" but he did have a bad first half.  However, its also maybe not as bad as it appears either...none the less, he has no case for MVP.

1. Turnover 1 - To me, this feels like another miscommunication by Davis.  I do find it interesting that 38% of Josh's INT's are on attempts to Davis.  They are just not on the same page, and it was another situation where it is hard to tell who was right or wrong.  Davis just needs to plant and turn around and easy TD.  But also, he is open when he broke right too.  So hard to say is that a Josh mistake or Davis mistake.  
2. Turnover 2 - The INT was not the issue, in fact, at that point the INT was RIGHT decision and Miami screwed up catch it as it was essentially a punt given that any incomplete pass or other failed conversion gave Miam the ball back with much better field position.  The true mistake here was bailing to early on his flat read to the TE on the left for the easy first down and rolling right and putting himself in a spot where the best decision was heave it and either hope for a TD or hope for an INT so Miami gets worse field position.  Josh even said so himself.  So the INT was the correct decision at that time, but Josh did miss the opportunity for an easy first down at the start of the play to the left, so that is the real mistake here, not the INT.  
3. End of half missed points - This is 100% on James Cook, sorry that was a perfect pass in the endzone and Cook once again drops a perfect dime for a TD for the 3rd time now in like 3 or 4 games.  Sure, we can blame Josh for not putting the ball in the endzone on that last attempt, but if you watch the replay it looks like if Josh hits him he can get in, so I don't hate him being aggressive there, Miami just made a great stop.  Ideally, you want to see us get at least 3 there, so the option was to just throw it away, but I don't hate the aggression either given the proximity to the goal line on where the ball was delivered.  But none of this should have mattered, Cook took the points off the board.  

 

Second half though, outside a strip fumble, which was a great play by a talented player, Josh had a pretty stellar 2nd half and he willed us to a win multiple times late in that game with his legs.  

[DapperCam]

1 hour ago, VW82 said:

Now we're claiming Josh didn't even have a bad game vs. Phins?? He had four turnovers including the one on downs to end the first half that robbed us of three points. We won because the defense generated two turnovers and shut out the Phins in the second half, and because Harty ran a punt return back 97 yards. 

 

I just don't understand why we need to distort the truth like this week after week. It's okay to admit Josh was all over the place this season, good and bad. You can't just look at TDs and nothing else with no context. 

 

Forget NFL MVP, the Bills defense was the MVP of the team this year.

You want Allen to throw it away at the end of the half instead of hitting the guy in stride running full speed 3 yards from the end zone? Gotta give your guy a chance to punch it in and make a play.

 

That’s a winning play by Allen, just didn’t work out.

[Alphadawg7]

57 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

You want Allen to throw it away at the end of the half instead of hitting the guy in stride running full speed 3 yards from the end zone? Gotta give your guy a chance to punch it in and make a play.

 

That’s a winning play by Allen, just didn’t work out.

While I agree as I am of the mindset is to be more aggressive, the rule of thumb is you can’t take points off the board.  No coach wants the ball in play outside of the endzone unless the player has either a clear path to get out of bounds or a clear path to endzone.  So doing so took points off the board and is gonna oiss off the coach.  
 

Me personally, the way we moved the ball, confidence in our D against Tua, and us getting ball at half made me comfortable with the risk and giving our guy a shot to score.  But it’s overall the incorrect move as 3 points is better than the 0 points we got

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, VW82 said:

Now we're claiming Josh didn't even have a bad game vs. Phins?? He had four turnovers including the one on downs to end the first half that robbed us of three points. We won because the defense generated two turnovers and shut out the Phins in the second half, and because Harty ran a punt return back 97 yards. 

 

I just don't understand why we need to distort the truth like this week after week. It's okay to admit Josh was all over the place this season, good and bad. You can't just look at TDs and nothing else with no context. 

 

Forget NFL MVP, the Bills defense was the MVP of the team this year.

Allen had an uneven first half - at times playing great and at other times making bad mistakes.  The Bills moved up and down the field thanks to Allen's play.  If you're going to call out his mistakes - missing Diggs on the deep ball was the worst one - then at least acknowledge that a dropped TD pass by Cook and the refs not calling 2 obvious penalties completely altered how Allen's first half went.

 

Allen had a fantastic 4th quarter which won the game with a lot of help from Harty's punt return.  In my experience it's better for a QB to play great and not make mistakes in the 4th quarter then the 1st quarter.

 

It's laughable to say that the Bills D was the team MVP.  They have overcome a lot of injuries and McD has them playing great right now but that doesn't alter the fact that they could not hold the lead in the last 2 minutes of 3 of the Bills losses.

 

Allen is the Bill's MVP for at least the 4th straight year.

 

 

[Orlando Tim]

If I was allowed to vote the only two guys I am considering is CMC and Purdy. CMC passed every version of stat/eye test I can think of and is the guy defenses plan around. Purdy is stats wise the best. Lamar has a great defense and is allowed to play average and still win. I would still prefer Josh over any of them, but that is not the point of the award. If Lamar wins I won't know what to say because he is statistically so far behind Purdy in almost every category, you would have to give far too much weight to one bad game. 

[achrist33]

I think it should probably be CMC this year.  He is all around the best player in the NFL hands down right now.  

[Chaos]

Josh Allen yesterday the first player in NFL history to throw for 350+ yards, rush for 65+ yards and complete 75%+ of his passes in a single game.

 

This is possibly the most crucial game of the season.  Josh Allen is the NFL MVP. 

[Warcodered]

 

🤷‍♂️

 

Regular season is over Josh ends it with the most TDs and Yards, not in the Pro Bowl and not winning the MVP because why the ***** not.

Edited January 9 by Warcodered

[Mr. WEO]

Jackson will get it because his team had 13 wins.  No one should think he's having a better season than Allen.  

 

He's an option QB who fumbles a lot but doesn't score a lot and has a low INT rate on a team with the #1 Defense.   

 

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

4 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

 

🤷‍♂️

 

Regular season is over Josh ends it with the most TDs and Yards, not in the Pro Bowl and not winning the MVP because why the ***** not.

 

He isn't winning the MVP because he isn't the most deserving of it.  Him not making the Prow-Bowl however was egregious.  

 

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Jackson will get it because his team had 13 wins.  No one should think he's having a better season than Allen.  

 

He's an option QB who fumbles a lot but doesn't score a lot and has a low INT rate on a team with the #1 Defense.   

 

 

 

Which is sad his team is 11-6, in 3 of those losses he left the field with the lead and in one of them he went back in for OT and left with it again.

[Mr. WEO]

42 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

He isn't winning the MVP because he isn't the most deserving of it.  Him not making the Prow-Bowl however was egregious.  

 

is Jackson more deserving? Why?

[Alphadawg7]

8 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Which is sad his team is 11-6, in 3 of those losses he left the field with the lead and in one of them he went back in for OT and left with it again.

 

No disrespect, but there seems to be some selective memory going on here because you seem to forget that the offensive struggles of Allen and the offense were a key reason the defense, which was decimated by injuries compared to our mostly healthy offense, was in that position in the first place.

 

 

 

[HappyDays]

 

[Alphadawg7]

30 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

is Jackson more deserving? Why?

 

Why is Allen more deserving?  Because people want to cherry pick 2 "season total" stats that lack context week to week where he leads in total yards and total TD's?   He also leads in total Interceptions and total turnovers too.

 

MVP is not an award for most passing stats.  Lamar played in one less game than Josh, but still put up 29 total TD's to just 7 INTs and 4500 total yards.  Yards they are about the same as Josh has just over 300 more total yards, but he also played one more game than Lamar.  So odds are they finish pretty close had they played same number of games.  

 

So literally, the ONLY case for Josh is "15 more TD's" but Josh also had 15 more turnovers than Lamar which significantly eats away at the 15 more TD's argument.  And if Lamar plays one more game that 15 TD's gap shrinks a little as Lamar likely adds at least 2 or 3 more to his TD total, possibly more.  

 

Bottom line, Lamar put up 4500 yards in one less game and 29 TD's.  His efficiency was better and he hurt his teams effort to win games far less than Josh did.  

 

I love Josh who is my fave player all time now...I bet on him to be MVP...I would love nothing more than him to be MVP.  But he just isn't more deserving this year than Lamar.  

Edited January 9 by Alphadawg7

[Ralonzo]

6 hours ago, VW82 said:

Now we're claiming Josh didn't even have a bad game vs. Phins?? He had four turnovers including the one on downs to end the first half

 

...and there's where I knew I could stop reading

[Warcodered]

25 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect, but there seems to be some selective memory going on here because you seem to forget that the offensive struggles of Allen and the offense were a key reason the defense, which was decimated by injuries compared to our mostly healthy offense, was in that position in the first place.

 

 

 

In a position to close games and win? How terrible.