Kirksey signing with the Bills PS

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

1 minute ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Kirksey surprisingly has made $37m so far in his NFL career.  Dude must really love football if he’s willing to be on the practice squad and then be making the vet minimum if he actually gets called up to the 53 man roster 

Or he wants to win something 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Well, no.

Bigger is great if it doesn't bring along slower. In McD's defense, slower is a problem.

Well yes, converted safeties who weigh 223-226 pounds and don’t have elite athleticism don’t make effective starting MLBs in the NFL.

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Kirksey surprisingly has made $37m so far in his NFL career.  Dude must really love football if he’s willing to be on the practice squad and then be making the vet minimum if he actually gets called up to the 53 man roster 

 

He wont be on the PS long, and if I could make $1.08M for a few months work I would keep showing up until they told me to stay home.

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Kirksey surprisingly has made $37m so far in his NFL career.  Dude must really love football if he’s willing to be on the practice squad and then be making the vet minimum if he actually gets called up to the 53 man roster 

How do we know he'll get the vet minimum?   For example, if he's on the PS and some other team wants to sign him, the Bills can keep him only if they match the offer, right?   The offer doesn't have to be vet minimum.   

 

For this guy, who's had a significant contract history (which presumably means he's pretty talented), I would expect that he's already negotiated his deal with the Bills for when he's activated, and that there's going to be something more than the vet minimum in it for him.   I mean, the guy has a resume that suggests that he has some actual value in the market place.   He's been playing on contracts worth $3-4 million a year.  He has talent, and except for his injury history, he doesn't look like his career is over.  Maybe he's willing to give the Bills a discount because he wants to go to a winner, but I'd expect that when he's activated he'll be someplace over the vet minimum.  

 

The entire arrangement already has been negotiated with him.   PS is sort of a tryout for him, with both sides expecting that he's going to be elevated soon.  There's been a handshake on what the deal will be when he's elevated.   

[Doc]

35 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

Kirksey surprisingly has made $37m so far in his NFL career.  Dude must really love football if he’s willing to be on the practice squad and then be making the vet minimum if he actually gets called up to the 53 man roster 

 

Being released so late in the pre-season gives few options.  So better to go with a team that has a chance to make the SB.

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, noacls said:

Remains to be seen to all of the above. Kirksey has limited athletic ability and is 31. He is being added to an aging somewhat slow back 7. I have hope but this D always has trouble with speed.

 

Kaiir Elam quickly solves some of the speed problem, but it remains to be seen whether he'll be a part of the equation in any meaningful way this season. 

[Dunkirk Donski]

4 minutes ago, noacls said:

Remains to be seen to all of the above. Kirksey has limited athletic ability and is 31. He is being added to an aging somewhat slow back 7. I have hope but this D always has trouble with speed.

Kirksey came into the league with "elite" speed.  He's aged but i doubt he's as slow as Klein

[DrDawkinstein]

20 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Really? 
 

Typically not a good sign when the guy you sign to the practice squad in late August is most likely penciled in to be your starter in a few weeks… it’s similar to them signing washed John Brown and Cole Beasley in late December… for both cases it obviously means/meant something went wrong with their evaluation of said position groups. 
 

Don’t think it’s a big deal at MLB, but they clearly misjudged what they had… and looks like another day 2 pick McBeane threw in the trash in Bernard.

 

You assume they thought our MLBs were actually good and not just "what we currently have to work with". I'd guess Beane has had his eye out for an affordable upgrade at MLB since free agency started. But contracts are always at a premium in May, and far more affordable in late August.

 

Plenty of teams (all of them?) brought in guys from other cuts yesterday. It's part of the business and standard procedure. Not due to a mis-evaluation by the FO.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, noacls said:

Remains to be seen to all of the above. Kirksey has limited athletic ability and is 31. He is being added to an aging somewhat slow back 7. I have hope but this D always has trouble with speed.

Is he slower than AJ Klein? 

 

This will all be irrelevant after MNF in 10-days. 

 

We're all going to see Bernard is a safety, and Dodson is a Special Teamer, both of them taking wrong angles, both of them manhandled by Guards, both of them having their tackles broken because they both lack strength, so none of this will matter. 

 

Kirksey is a low-end starter, but if it needs to be said that it's August 31st that those guys are still "battling" despite Dodson getting a free month without Bernard is pretty revealing. 

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

Fair enough as a reaction to the "he starts week one" "after half time week 2", upgrade from Edmunds because (more tackles in....more games played) gang.  That's been kind of chafing my grits as well.  I think this is a solid cutdown-day signing and it's excellent that we were able to put him on the PS at least to come up to speed in our offense and complete his rehab.  The 53 man roster had questions at backup OT, MLB, and QB and props to Beane for addressing all 3.
 

My point is that I don't think truly below-average players keep getting signed into their 30's.  Kirksey got a second contract from the Browns for 4 years, $38M ($9.5/yr).  They did have some defensive talent at that point with Myles Garrett, Emmanuel Ogbah, and Joe Schoebert - and they re-upped Kirksey at that point even though they switched their defense from 3-4 to 4-3 and moved him outside.  It IS the Browns, but do they really do that for a guy who's below average? For comparison, $9.5M AAV would currently slot him in at #7 ILB in the league, between DeVondre Campbell and Demario Davis.

 

Then Green Bay signed him 2 year, $13M ($6.5/yr) - again, that's not a star, but it's not a "below average" player offer to a 7 year vet who just got cut 2 years into his 2nd contract.  It would currently slot him in at #10 ILB in AAV, between Eric Kendricks and Ju'Whuan Bentley   

 

If we look at the league as an "efficient marketplace" which favors youth, even taking into account that FA get overpaid, Kirksey's contract history says GMs think he's average or above.

 

He HAS struggled with injuries, starting in 2018 after the Browns drafted Baker and the hope was they were going somewhere (and it looked as though they switched back to 3-4?).  Was he trying to "play up to his contract" or find an extra gear to help the Browns to a winning season, and over-extended himself?  Milano did this up to 2020, but he seems to have learned to "play within himself" and change up his technique to help this.  Last year was the first season in 5 years he managed a full season, and starting the season with an injury issue doesn't bode well. 

 

He HAS played on mostly poor defensive squads, though the Browns at least broke even in 2018 (and like I said, had some defensive talent); Green Bay had an OK D in 2020 IIRC.  The Texans also showed flashes towards the end of last season.

To me, this is similar to signing AJ Klein in 2020, when Klein was 29 and just off 2 years starting with the Saints (though we paid Klein a lot more).  What I want to know is what kind of player is Kirksey?  What I mean by that is, in Klein we got below average native athleticism combined with above-average knowledge of the game and ability to read and react to his keys quickly ("Coach Klein" as Micah Hyde calls him), plus willingness to THUMP as a tackler. 

 

What I'm looking for is some info on what kind of player Kirksey is in that regard?

 

 

 

 

I got you. I think Kirksey’s ceiling and positive traits are what kept getting him signed to those contracts. However his deficiencies are why he didn’t play out any of them (except his rookie deal). He’s fast in a straight line and can cover ground really, really well. He’s genuinely explosive. Just don’t ask him to change direction or take on blockers. He is not strong so he has to beat an OL to a spot to make a play downhill. It’s over if one gets a hat on him. Likewise once he’s moving, he is in trouble if he has to quickly change direction to make a play. He just can’t. In coverage he will get to a spot or run with a guy really well, but he can’t stay with someone making moves on him.

 

Honestly, he is not a terrible player or anything. But his play can be frustrating at times and his injury issues are frustrating as well. Some (okay, a lot) of my reaction was basically “Oh, ****, not again.” If we had bonafide starter and he got signed to be the backup, I’d be good with it. As it stands he is probably is an improvement at MLB as long as he stays healthy, which speaks to a different frustration. 

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, noacls said:

He did not, ran a 4.72 40 at combine. That is average, but he is now 31

 

Where did you see that?  From what I can tell, he didn't run at the Combine and ran a 4.58 40-yard at his Pro Day.

[noacls]

12 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Where did you see that?  From what I can tell, he didn't run at the Combine and ran a 4.58 40-yard at his Pro Day.

nflcombineresults.com

Thank you for pointing that out DOC. Usually this site is dead on. Kirksey is not slow but he is aging along with the back 7 and was released by one of the worst teams in nfl. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by noacls

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Exactly.   Beane has told us that, compared to the other positions, it just isn't that important to have a star in the middle.   At least, that's what they think.   We may find out this season just how undermanned they can afford to be. 

 

We've had this discussion in depth before, and as before, I don't think your conclusion is correct - though framing it as "isn't that important to have a star" is closer to reasonable than your previous "MLB is the least important player on defense". 

 

It is a point that McDermott has managed to build a competent, average-ish defense without that middle "star" at times.  He did in 2017.

They plainly would prefer a star, or why would Beane have traded up and used a first round pick on Edmunds, then signed his 5th year option, if having a star in the middle wasn't important to him?  Why did Carolina invest in Keuchly?   I think that to the contrary, while last season was Edmunds best to date, he just didn't emerge into enough of that Keuchly-like "star in the middle" that would persuade Beane and McDermott  to lock down the kind of money and duration of contract stars receive - and that Edmunds was able to attract on the open market.  They want a star at MLB, they just didn't see Edmunds shining brightly enough.

 

Remember "does Edmunds need to produce more splash plays?"  "Yes."

 

On the other hand, I'm getting "last year's slot receiver" vibes from the steps Beane took to build that "defense without an MLB star".  To recap, last year Beane and McDermott wagered that between a vet who had shown out in the rare times the starter went down (McKenzie), two vet FA (Austin and Crowder) and a 5th round pick in Shakir - oh, and Knox, who had shown himself more reliable as a target in 2021 - he had done "enough" at slot receiver.  Well, he hadn't, as the use of this year's 1st round pick on Kincaid plus this year's 2nd biggest FA spend on Harty showed.

 

This season, Beane wagered that between a 4th year ST ace who had played with variable success when plugged in for Edmunds in 2 "starts" + most of a 3rd game** (Dodson), last year's 3rd rounder, and AJ Klein he would have done "enough" (I don't know what they really thought about Spector TBH).  Well, between Klein apparently having lost 2 steps, Bernard not hitting the gym and drinking his protein shakes like he should have off-season then having a hammy, and Dodson still being Dodson, I think the answer is "hadn't" again.

 

Moving on from Klein to Kirksey may be a positive step - we'll see what he has once the hammy heals up.  Josh Norman had a hammy to start the 2020 season, and it became evident when he did start that the answer to "can he still play as McDermott and Frazier hoped?" was "No".  Age 33 doesn't heal like 23, that's for darn sure.

 

But don't be surprised if significant resources are used on an MLB next season unless Dorian Williams comes on strong.

 

Edit:

** meant to add, that while Dodson shows as having 5 starts, they break down as follows:

    2 - substituting for Milano.  Bad.  Very Bad.  When you substitute straight-up for "Cookie", your defense may crumble.  See Klein, AJ.

    2-  substituting for Edmunds "next man up" fashion.  OK against the run, sucked in by PA, couldn't cover.

    1 - listed as starter, but both Milano and Edmunds played.  The team started in 4-3 base, so Dodson was listed as a starter though he only played 10 total defensive snaps

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Beck Water

[Doc]

18 minutes ago, noacls said:

nflcombineresults.com

Thank you for pointing that out DOC. Usually this site is dead on. Kirksey is not slow but he is aging along with the back 7 and was released by one of the worst teams in nfl. 

 

Might have the answer right there.  I guess we'll have to stay tuned.

[Beck Water]

29 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I got you. I think Kirksey’s ceiling and positive traits are what kept getting him signed to those contracts. However his deficiencies are why he didn’t play out any of them (except his rookie deal). He’s fast in a straight line and can cover ground really, really well. He’s genuinely explosive. Just don’t ask him to change direction or take on blockers. He is not strong so he has to beat an OL to a spot to make a play downhill. It’s over if one gets a hat on him. Likewise once he’s moving, he is in trouble if he has to quickly change direction to make a play. He just can’t. In coverage he will get to a spot or run with a guy really well, but he can’t stay with someone making moves on him.

 

Honestly, he is not a terrible player or anything. But his play can be frustrating at times and his injury issues are frustrating as well. Some (okay, a lot) of my reaction was basically “Oh, ****, not again.” If we had bonafide starter and he got signed to be the backup, I’d be good with it. As it stands he is probably is an improvement at MLB as long as he stays healthy, which speaks to a different frustration. 

 

So his positive traits would be explosion, and fast straight-line speed?  What do you see as a ceiling?

 

I sort of felt the "best ability is availability" combined with coaching change was sufficient explanation for "moving right along".  Near as I can tell, he had 4 different DCs in Cleveland, then when Kevin Stefanski took over, it only makes sense to kick the highly paid guy with the poor availability to the curb.  But Pettine, who was his HC for 2 years, was DC in Green Bay when they signed him - that would say Pettine thought well of him.

 

When I look at Spotrac's ILB FA list, it's kind of un-inspiring.  But there are a couple guys who signed for $2.5-$3M who seem plausibly better than what we have

Edited August 31, 2023 by Beck Water

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

We've had this discussion in depth before, and as before, I don't think your conclusion is correct - though framing it as "isn't that important to have a star" is closer to reasonable than your previous "MLB is the least important player on defense". 

 

It is a point that McDermott has managed to build a competent, average-ish defense without that middle "star" at times.  He did in 2017.

They plainly would prefer a star, or why would Beane have traded up and used a first round pick on Edmunds, then signed his 5th year option, if having a star in the middle wasn't important to him?  Why did Carolina invest in Keuchly?   I think that to the contrary, while last season was Edmunds best to date, he just didn't emerge into enough of that Keuchly-like "star in the middle" that would persuade Beane and McDermott  to lock down the kind of money and duration of contract stars receive - and that Edmunds was able to attract on the open market.  They want a star at MLB, they just didn't see Edmunds shining brightly enough.

 

Remember "does Edmunds need to produce more splash plays?"  "Yes."

 

On the other hand, I'm getting "last year's slot receiver" vibes from the steps Beane took to build that "defense without an MLB star".  To recap, last year Beane and McDermott wagered that between a vet who had shown out in the rare times the starter went down (McKenzie), two vet FA (Austin and Crowder) and a 5th round pick in Shakir - oh, and Knox, who had shown himself more reliable as a target in 2021 - he had done "enough" at slot receiver.  Well, he hadn't, as the use of this year's 1st round pick on Kincaid plus this year's 2nd biggest FA spend on Harty showed.

 

This season, Beane wagered that between a 4th year ST ace who had played with variable success when plugged in for Edmunds in 2 "starts" + most of a 3rd game** (Dodson), last year's 3rd rounder, and AJ Klein he would have done "enough" (I don't know what they really thought about Spector TBH).  Well, between Klein apparently having lost 2 steps, Bernard not hitting the gym and drinking his protein shakes like he should have off-season then having a hammy, and Dodson still being Dodson, I think the answer is "hadn't" again.

 

Moving on from Klein to Kirksey may be a positive step - we'll see what he has once the hammy heals up.  Josh Norman had a hammy to start the 2020 season, and it became evident when he did start that the answer to "can he still play as McDermott and Frazier hoped?" was "No".  Age 33 doesn't heal like 23, that's for darn sure.

 

But don't be surprised if significant resources are used on an MLB next season unless Dorian Williams comes on strong.

 

The only evidence you have that middle linebacker is important to them is that they used draft capital on one five years ago.   The evidence I have is that they used no money and no draft capital to replace him.   And I have Beane's presser, in which he admits that he spent all the money and draft capital elsewhere, and in which he also admits that they've been intending to have all the players around the middle linebacker pick up whatever talent differential may be in the middle.   And I have the fact that they upgraded EVERY position on defense in the past two years, which is exactly the time frame within which they knew they weren't keeping Edmunds.   They've signed two bigtime pass rushers, a starting defensive tackle and two backup tackles, re-signed Oliver, used a first-round pick on a corner, re-signed Poyer, and signed a veteran backup safety.  

 

In the face of all that, do you really think that middle linebacker is a more important position than any of the other positions?   The only evidence you have is they drafted Edmunds.   I think it's clear that their view of what they need in the middle has changed.  

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, ROCBillsBeliever said:

 

A couple of points:

 

-My comment was witty, grammatically and stylistically flawless, and it harkened back to a Buffalo Bills coaching choice mistake we all like to poke fun at. This is quality.

 

-If my accusation that you troll others on this board with negative posts about the Bills is ridiculous, you can easily prove this. Want to know how, my good chap? 

 

Here's how: Stop posting low-quality negative vitriol about the Bills. Plain and simple. Want to prove my accusation ridiculous? Then post positive, well-researched content. 

 

Or, keep doing what you do. 

 

Good night, old chap. 

 

I guess we have different standards. You called two people on the board trolls. Maybe that's your way of being flawless and portraying quality. 

 

Secondly, I'm really not here to prove anything to anybody. I'm here to express my feelings and opinions and vice versa. I've posted many positive things on here. I know most of my posts are negative. I get that and I understand the displeasure many feel about that. You can always mute me.

 

I've never represented my words as gospel nor do I think I know it all. I've been humbled here many times and been wrong probably more than right. 

 

A simple apology will due chap. 

 

 

35 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I got you. I think Kirksey’s ceiling and positive traits are what kept getting him signed to those contracts. However his deficiencies are why he didn’t play out any of them (except his rookie deal). He’s fast in a straight line and can cover ground really, really well. He’s genuinely explosive. Just don’t ask him to change direction or take on blockers. He is not strong so he has to beat an OL to a spot to make a play downhill. It’s over if one gets a hat on him. Likewise once he’s moving, he is in trouble if he has to quickly change direction to make a play. He just can’t. In coverage he will get to a spot or run with a guy really well, but he can’t stay with someone making moves on him.

 

Honestly, he is not a terrible player or anything. But his play can be frustrating at times and his injury issues are frustrating as well. Some (okay, a lot) of my reaction was basically “Oh, ****, not again.” If we had bonafide starter and he got signed to be the backup, I’d be good with it. As it stands he is probably is an improvement at MLB as long as he stays healthy, which speaks to a different frustration. 

Really good post!

[RoyBatty is alive]

22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I still say he starts week 1 if healthy.

I highly doubt that.   No way can he learn the playbook and terminology in such a short amount of time to call out defensive signals as MLB.  I think about 5 weeks is the right amount of time

[Nephilim17]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

In the face of all that, do you really think that middle linebacker is a more important position than any of the other positions?   The only evidence you have is they drafted Edmunds.   I think it's clear that their view of what they need in the middle has changed.  

I agree that recent evidence shows the McBeane don't think that in a passing league MLB is a priority position.

 

But perhaps they had the same or a similar view when they drafted Edmunds but were hoping with his height, reach and speed he could be a unicorn MLB and be a vital asset on the D for the short passing game. But he really wasn't.

 

And now they figure most, if not all MLBs, aren't really a force against passing teams so that's why it's no longer a priority worth much more than low-third-round picks.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Really? 
 

Typically not a good sign when the guy you sign to the practice squad in late August is most likely penciled in to be your starter in a few weeks… it’s similar to them signing washed John Brown and Cole Beasley in late December… for both cases it obviously means/meant something went wrong with their evaluation of said position groups. 
 

Don’t think it’s a big deal at MLB, but they clearly misjudged what they had… and looks like another day 2 pick McBeane threw in the trash in Bernard.

Is Christian Kirksey a better MLB than Dodson or Bernard?  Is he washed like Beasley and Brown were? 
 

They didn’t like what they saw in camp and saw an opportunity to upgrade…damn them.  
 

I’m really you confused on negativity, its so unlike you.  Taron Johnson, Christian Benford, Dawson Knox, Gabe Davis, Devin Singletary, James Cook…those are day 2/late round successes.  But lets keep focusing on day 2 and 3 misses.

Edited August 31, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[BillnutinHouston]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

 

Typically not a good sign when the guy you sign to the practice squad in late August is most likely penciled in to be your starter in a few weeks… 
 

 

George Cumby says hello.

[Shaw66]

18 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

I agree that recent evidence shows the McBeane don't think that in a passing league MLB is a priority position.

 

But perhaps they had the same or a similar view when they drafted Edmunds but were hoping with his height, reach and speed he could be a unicorn MLB and be a vital asset on the D for the short passing game. But he really wasn't.

 

And now they figure most, if not all MLBs, aren't really a force against passing teams so that's why it's no longer a priority worth much more than low-third-round picks.

I think that's exactly right.  Edmunds wasn't a heat-seeking missile when he joined the Bills, and I think McBeane hoped he would learn to become one.  Then they would have had a truly magnificent player in the middle of the defense.  I think they now look at the position as you say in the bold sentence. 

[BarleyNY]

40 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

So his positive traits would be explosion, and fast straight-line speed?  What do you see as a ceiling?

 

When I look at Spotrac's ILB FA list, it's kind of un-inspiring.  But there are a couple guys who signed for $2.5-$3M who seem plausibly better than what we have

 

I think at this point we’ve seen his ceiling.

 

Deion Jones and Jaylon Smith are still out there. Jones is still a FA and Smith is on a PS. Neither has had a lot of interest this off-season so I’m not sure how much better they’d be than Kirksey. I haven’t seen them play much though. Maybe it is because Kirksey took the deal we were offering to MLBs. I’d be surprised if it was much more than vet minimum plus incentives. 

[stevewin]

54 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Might have the answer right there.  I guess we'll have to stay tuned.

A team can be bad, but still have decent/deep talent for specific position groups

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

The only evidence you have that middle linebacker is important to them is that they used draft capital on one five years ago.   The evidence I have is that they used no money and no draft capital to replace him.   And I have Beane's presser, in which he admits that he spent all the money and draft capital elsewhere, and in which he also admits that they've been intending to have all the players around the middle linebacker pick up whatever talent differential may be in the middle.   And I have the fact that they upgraded EVERY position on defense in the past two years, which is exactly the time frame within which they knew they weren't keeping Edmunds.   They've signed two bigtime pass rushers, a starting defensive tackle and two backup tackles, re-signed Oliver, used a first-round pick on a corner, re-signed Poyer, and signed a veteran backup safety.  

 

In the face of all that, do you really think that middle linebacker is a more important position than any of the other positions?   The only evidence you have is they drafted Edmunds.   I think it's clear that their view of what they need in the middle has changed.  

 

Shaw, with all respect, you skate right over evidence I spelled out in plain language - the Bills picked up his 5th year option.  Why'd they do that, if MLB didn't matter to them?  Or why didn't they pick it up and then trade him, maybe for more draft capital than a 3rd round comp?

 

Speaking of draft capital, how can you square 2 3rd round picks in 2 years as "no draft capital"?  Seriously?

 

As for prioritizing elsewhere, I think of Beane and McDermott as a sort of executive chef team.  They look at what they need, they look at what ingredients are potentially available to them, and they map out a strategy.  You want to look at their food purchase decisions and say "well they didn't buy a steak this year, they spent their money on veal and chicken, so clearly steak doesn't matter to them since they didn't buy a steak".  I say "maybe they couldn't square the quality of the available steak with its cost and with other menu needs, so they made a plan to live with hamburger, buy two beef calves to fatten up for the future, and fund the organic chicken and prime veal they need.  That doesn't mean they don't value steak, or that they won't buy a steak in the future".

 

That was the point of my analogy to what the Bills did last year at slot (seems similar to what they did this year at MLB), only to invest a 1st rounder and their 2nd biggest FA $$ this year.  Last year's meagre investment doesn't mean they didn't value slot and want a star there, as we see by this year's investment.  It just means they thought they could "get by" with what they had (and were probably wrong). 

 

I don't think you're able to be fully reasonable in discussion  on this point - you seem so dug in on your POV that you're unable to fully recognize counter points.  I've given it my best shot, so rather than dead horse whaling, we're going to have to agree to disagree.  Ciao!

Edited August 31, 2023 by Beck Water

[NewEra]

36 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Is Christian Kirksey a better MLB than Dodson or Bernard?  Is he washed like Beasley and Brown were? 
 

They didn’t like what they saw in camp and saw an opportunity to upgrade…damn them.  
 

I’m really you focused on negativity, its so unlike you.  Taron Johnson, Christian Benford, Dawson Knox, Gabe Davis, Devin Singletary, James Cook…those are day 2/late round successes.  But lets keep focusing on day 2 and 3 misses.

Some like to focus on the present and the future while trying to find a way to improve.  
 

Some like to live in the past and cry about it.  

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Shaw, with all respect, you skate right over evidence I spelled out in plain language - the Bills picked up his 5th year option.  Why'd they do that, if MLB didn't matter to them?  Or why didn't they pick it up and then trade him, maybe for more draft capital than a 3rd round comp?

 

Speaking of draft capital, how can you square 2 3rd round picks in 2 years as "no draft capital?

 

As for prioritizing elsewhere, I think of Beane and McDermott as a sort of executive chef team.  They look at what they need, they look at what ingredients are potentially available to them, and they map out a strategy.  You want to look at their food purchase decisions and say "well they didn't buy a steak this year, they spent their money on veal and chicken, so clearly steak doesn't matter to them since they didn't buy a steak".  I say "maybe they couldn't square the quality of the available steak with its cost and with other needs, so they made a plan to live with hamburger and buy two beef calves to fatten up.  That doesn't mean they don't value steak, or that they won't buy a steak in the future".

 

That was the point of my analogy to what the Bills did last year at slot (seems similar to what they did this year at MLB), only to invest a 1st rounder and their 2nd biggest FA $$ this year.  Last year's meagre investment doesn't mean they didn't value slot and want a star there, as we see by this year's investment.  It just means they thought they could "get by" with what they had (and were probably wrong). 

 

I don't think you're able to be very rational in discussion  on this point, and I've given it my best shot, so rather than dead horse whaling, we're going to have to agree to disagree.  Ciao!

Thanks.

[LABILLBACKER]

39 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think that's exactly right.  Edmunds wasn't a heat-seeking missile when he joined the Bills, and I think McBeane hoped he would learn to become one.  Then they would have had a truly magnificent player in the middle of the defense.  I think they now look at the position as you say in the bold sentence. 

Completely agree....he was never a thumper or heat seeking missile. And over the years they also realized he rarely generated turnovers, sacks, TFL's or deflections. He did what he was told and backpedaled into the zone securing the middle.  I just don't see the Bills in the future investing anymore on an MLB as you see with RB's.  It's becoming a less important cog in your avg NFL defense. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[Beck Water]

46 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think that's exactly right.  Edmunds wasn't a heat-seeking missile when he joined the Bills, and I think McBeane hoped he would learn to become one.  Then they would have had a truly magnificent player in the middle of the defense.  I think they now look at the position as you say in the bold sentence. 

 

Just a little point that last season, if you look at "passer rating against", Edmunds was 30th in the league with 63.6.

 

If, by "heat seeking missile", you mean "able to seek and defend pass targets", there were only 4 LB who were better, one of whom was our own Guido Torpedo, Matt Milano, at 62.6.  There were a lot of DB who were worse last year.

 

I'll engage because I think you said something where we might be able to identify points of agreement and communicate.  I think they do believe "most, if not all MLBs, aren't really a force against passing teams".   I think they do believe a MLB who is not a force against passing teams isn't worth "much more than low-third-round picks".  

 

But I don't think it follows that they don't WANT an MLB who can be a force against passing teams.  I think if there's someone they identify who could plausibly become what they hoped Edmunds would be, they would put resources into acquiring him.  But Edmunds was the #6 FA contract this year, too rich for a team that is already paying their QB, WR1, LT, Edge, and CB on 2nd contracts, and there wasn't someone they could identify in that range. 

 

I do think they could have and should have done a bit more at MLB, but that's another story.

 

 

[ROCBillsBeliever]

1 hour ago, newcam2012 said:

I guess we have different standards. You called two people on the board trolls. Maybe that's your way of being flawless and portraying quality. 

 

Secondly, I'm really not here to prove anything to anybody. I'm here to express my feelings and opinions and vice versa. I've posted many positive things on here. I know most of my posts are negative. I get that and I understand the displeasure many feel about that. You can always mute me.

 

I've never represented my words as gospel nor do I think I know it all. I've been humbled here many times and been wrong probably more than right. 

 

A simple apology will due chap. 

 

 

Really good post!

 

Well, to each their own. I guess I'll mute you. I just don't need more negativity in my life. Got plenty to spare. 

 

Take care, and hope you turn over a few new leaves. Maybe I will, too. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

I highly doubt that.   No way can he learn the playbook and terminology in such a short amount of time to call out defensive signals as MLB.  I think about 5 weeks is the right amount of time

He already knows the defense. Roquan Smith started the same week he was traded to Baltimore.

 

Everyone is different. It’ll really depend on his health.

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I think that's exactly right.  Edmunds wasn't a heat-seeking missile when he joined the Bills, and I think McBeane hoped he would learn to become one.  Then they would have had a truly magnificent player in the middle of the defense.  I think they now look at the position as you say in the bold sentence. 

I think they were trying to find a Luke Kuechly type like he had in Carolina. It just never materialized. 

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think they were trying to find a Luke Kuechly type like he had in Carolina. It just never materialized. 

 

This exactly.

 

McD doesnt require an all-pro LB in the middle, but his defense sure runs a lot better with one. The problem is Edmunds never developed into an All-Pro level player. He plateaued at the Pro-Bowl Alternate level, which we all know is no where near the same.

 

In light of that, regardless of how important the position is or isnt, you dont sink $18M/year into that player.

[BillsVet]

6 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Kirksey is exactly what you need at MLB when you’re paying premium QB rates.  Like, exactly.

 

Does this mean you can't have a RD1/RD2 pick or high dollar UFA at every position now?  

 

What is Buffalo going to do?  Because, like, finding value lower in the draft or among lesser UFA's is hard. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Is Christian Kirksey a better MLB than Dodson or Bernard?

 

Good question.  He was at one point.  At this stage in his career and coming back from a hammy, I would say "uncertain".

 

What he may be, is an upgrade on AJ Klein as that savvy vet player who knows the defense, can spot what the offense is doing and call the counter, and who can use his knowledge to compensate for elite physicality.

 

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

They didn’t like what they saw in camp and saw an opportunity to upgrade…damn them. 

 

That's really what this is.  They saw an opportunity to upgrade on AJ Klein for the practice squad and as a "plan C" in case Dodson and Bernard both fail at MLB.

 

Time will tell on everything else.

 

Some people here like to over-react on everything.  We trade an RB who is parked on the bench for Nyheim Hines, who immediately takes over the punt return duties that Crowder had been filling and that Shakir and McKenzie looked shaky with - and proceded to fill them capably all season while making limited offensive contributions.  But some here act like we traded for our own budget Christian McCaffrey who would become an immediate game-changer on offense.

 

Rationally when you look at what Hines actually accomplished before the trade, he was contributing a couple of rush attempts and a couple of receptions per game, for about 34 ypg, as well as being a solid returner.  We got a good ROI for what we sent, and what his previous history was.  Yea us!

 

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

This exactly.

 

McD doesnt require an all-pro LB in the middle, but his defense sure runs a lot better with one. The problem is Edmunds never developed into an All-Pro level player. He plateaued at the Pro-Bowl Alternate level, which we all know is no where near the same.

 

In light of that, regardless of how important the position is or isnt, you dont sink $18M/year into that player.

 

Succinct statement of what I've been trying to explain. 

And Edmunds actually took a big step in his 5th year to the point where you might say "all pro is possible from here", but you don't bet 4 year, $72M with $50M guaranteed on that after he hasn't managed it in 5.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good question.  He was at one point.  At this stage in his career and coming back from a hammy, I would say "uncertain".

 

What he may be, is an upgrade on AJ Klein as that savvy vet player who knows the defense, can spot what the offense is doing and call the counter, and who can use his knowledge to compensate for elite physicality.

 

 

That's really what this is.  They saw an opportunity to upgrade on AJ Klein for the practice squad and as a "plan C" in case Dodson and Bernard both fail at MLB.

 

Time will tell on everything else.

 

Some people here like to over-react on everything.  We trade an RB who is parked on the bench for Nyheim Hines, who immediately takes over the punt return duties that Crowder had been filling and that Shakir and McKenzie looked shaky with - and proceded to fill them capably all season while making limited offensive contributions.  But some here act like we traded for our own budget Christian McCaffrey who would become an immediate game-changer on offense.

 

Rationally when you look at what Hines actually accomplished before the trade, he was contributing a couple of rush attempts and a couple of receptions per game, for about 34 ypg, as well as being a solid returner.  We got a good ROI for what we sent, and what his previous history was.  Yea us!

 

 

I think this Kirksey move means they would trust him to be in the right spot.  He might have slowed down physically as players do but with the youth of Bernard/Dodson and still going out and getting Kirksey....they simply don't trust them.

 

McDermott will take chances on players with physical limitations like a Levi Wallace, if he can trust they will at least be where they are supposed to.  

[Beck Water]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think this Kirksey move means they would trust him to be in the right spot.  He might have slowed down physically as players do but with the youth of Bernard/Dodson and still going out and getting Kirksey....they simply don't trust them.

 

McDermott will take chances on players with physical limitations like a Levi Wallace, if he can trust they will at least be where they are supposed to.  

 

I'm not sure it means anything more than that they think Kirksey should be an upgrade on AJ Klein at this point.  After all, they had the youth of Bernard/Dodson and they still went out and re-signed AJ Klein.  Who looked, in game 3, like he couldn't be trusted to be where he was supposed to, because he simply wasn't able to get there.

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Shaw, with all respect, you skate right over evidence I spelled out in plain language - the Bills picked up his 5th year option.  Why'd they do that, if MLB didn't matter to them?  Or why didn't they pick it up and then trade him, maybe for more draft capital than a 3rd round comp?

 

Speaking of draft capital, how can you square 2 3rd round picks in 2 years as "no draft capital"?  Seriously?

 

As for prioritizing elsewhere, I think of Beane and McDermott as a sort of executive chef team.  They look at what they need, they look at what ingredients are potentially available to them, and they map out a strategy.  You want to look at their food purchase decisions and say "well they didn't buy a steak this year, they spent their money on veal and chicken, so clearly steak doesn't matter to them since they didn't buy a steak".  I say "maybe they couldn't square the quality of the available steak with its cost and with other menu needs, so they made a plan to live with hamburger, buy two beef calves to fatten up for the future, and fund the organic chicken and prime veal they need.  That doesn't mean they don't value steak, or that they won't buy a steak in the future".

 

That was the point of my analogy to what the Bills did last year at slot (seems similar to what they did this year at MLB), only to invest a 1st rounder and their 2nd biggest FA $$ this year.  Last year's meagre investment doesn't mean they didn't value slot and want a star there, as we see by this year's investment.  It just means they thought they could "get by" with what they had (and were probably wrong). 

 

I don't think you're able to be fully reasonable in discussion  on this point - you seem so dug in on your POV that you're unable to fully recognize counter points.  I've given it my best shot, so rather than dead horse whaling, we're going to have to agree to disagree.  Ciao!

I think the Beane was really going to resign Edmunds. All indications pointed that way. Thinking he might even take a slight discount to stay in Buffalo

 

Things changed when the Bears massively overpaid for him. At that point, there's no way Beane could resign him. 

 

Now Beane had to make another tough decision on Oliver. That decision was made much easier with the departure of Edmunds. Additionally, the Bills are pretty thin in this department too. So it was prudent to sign Oliver on what looks to be a pretty fair level of compensation.

 

Of course, the MLB void still existed. I truly believe Jack Campbell was their guy. No proof of that just my opinion. Kincaid still on the board with no Campbell was an easy decision. The Dorian Williams pick is a hard scratcher. Not sure I get it to this day. Maybe, I'm just not that smart. Seems like every draft Beane does a WTF...

 

Free agency is the next option. Seems like the available FAs weren't a good fit or really not true MLB. Correct me if I'm wrong. 

 

Last resort, Beane decides to stay the course with the available MLBs on the roster. One of them will hopefully take a step forward and at least be serviceable. Not a crazy notion and still a possibility. Training camp and pre season seems to show the liability at the position. Beane has to do something.

 

The Kirksey signing. Is he great? Is he elite? No and no. Is it a solid signing? Yes. He brings experience and some skill to the forefront. You can't hate the free move sort of speak. I guess you could absolutely critique the process of how things evolved. 

 

Let's hope the MLB position isn't the Achilles heal of the defense. I don't agree that it's an insignificant position. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by newcam2012

[newcam2012]

18 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

This exactly.

 

McD doesnt require an all-pro LB in the middle, but his defense sure runs a lot better with one. The problem is Edmunds never developed into an All-Pro level player. He plateaued at the Pro-Bowl Alternate level, which we all know is no where near the same.

 

In light of that, regardless of how important the position is or isnt, you dont sink $18M/year into that player.

I can say with some confidence the bears fans will be disappointed in Edmunds. I hope not because I wish Edmunds well and I have nothing against the NFC Bears.