If Kincaid can fill the slot role of this team...

[Cray51]

Our offense will hum like it did to start the year.

 

When you go back and watch the first quarter of last year, the guy that consistently jumps out as making big time plays was - Isiah McKenzie.  They used him in the slot role, and he was an outlet Josh looked to multiple times throughout the game.  As the year went on, Isiah made some mistakes (thinking of that fumble against the Chiefs) and started to struggle.  All of a sudden, Diggs wasn't generating as much, Davis looked poor, and our offense looked disjointed.

 

This team benefits from having a true slot option.  Josh can play pocket passer more frequently if so.  If Kincaid can come in and force teams to truly defend the slot, the rest of our offense opens up BIG time.

 

I think it's the single biggest question mark on offense going into the year.

[BuffaloBillyG]

Slot this year is going to be STACKED. Between Kincaid running routes there, Sherfield chipping in, Harty and I expect to even see Diggs out of the slot more this team is set up to have match up nightmares for most defenses.

[Augie]

The BIGGEST question mark is still OLine, but we need legit options in the slot to have a well rounded offense. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 7 yard completion that moves the chains. 

[Gregg]

6 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Our offense will hum like it did to start the year.

 

When you go back and watch the first quarter of last year, the guy that consistently jumps out as making big time plays was - Isiah McKenzie.  They used him in the slot role, and he was an outlet Josh looked to multiple times throughout the game.  As the year went on, Isiah made some mistakes (thinking of that fumble against the Chiefs) and started to struggle.  All of a sudden, Diggs wasn't generating as much, Davis looked poor, and our offense looked disjointed.

 

This team benefits from having a true slot option.  Josh can play pocket passer more frequently if so.  If Kincaid can come in and force teams to truly defend the slot, the rest of our offense opens up BIG time.

 

I think it's the single biggest question mark on offense going into the year.

 

I still think the OL is the biggest question mark on offense. They need to do a better job in both pass protection and opening up holes in the run game. Last year the Eagles and Chiefs had the #1 and #2 OL's respectively. Bills were 26th. Allen is great but he needs help up front for this offense to really take off. Especially in the playoffs when the Bills are playing really good teams.

[Special K]

Also, the 2 TE formation, a running formation on many teams, will be more of a passing formation for the Bills. This will put added stress on the D because it will be that much harder to figure out what the Bills O is doing.

 

Looking forward to seeing some confused opposing defenses this year!

[Shaw66]

What I like is the versatility.   There's a role for a Beasley-type quick little guy in the slot, a guy who can separate from man coverage with raw quickness and change of direction.   That's a different kind of threat.   Kincaid is a Kelce-type threat in the slot, a guy who offers a big target in the open spaces in the zone.  

 

If Dorsey does it right, that will be times when Kincaid and a small slot guy are in the huddle at the same time.   If, for example, Shakir can be that slot guy, and he also can play wideout, when they're both in the huddle the defense has a real problem.   A formation with Kincaid wide and Shakir in the slot poses completely different problems for the defense than one with Kincaid in the slot and Shakir wide.   The same, maybe even better, with Kincaid on the field with Harty or Sherfield.  

 

If Kincaid is as good as he seems to be, based on camp reports, the versatility of the 11 guys on the field for the Bills will be amazing.   Think about it:   The #1 wideout is top 5 in the league, and a matchup nightmare.  The #2 wideout threatens all over the field, depending on whether it's Davis, Sherfield, Shakir, or who knows, maybe Shorter.   The slot guy threatens the middle of the field - I mean, if Kincaid can be a threat anything at all like Kelce, it would be amazing.   The running back looks like a serious three-down back who can be great in the passing game.   And the quarterback is both a great thrower and a legitimate running threat.   The Eagles might be the only offense in the league with such high-level threats throughout their entire lineup.  

[Drew21PA]

I want to get excited about the Kincaid prospects but am turning down expectations for the kid

 

still think he will be a threat but my expectation is not 1,000 yards that’s for sure

 

im still thinking maybe 500 probably +/- 150 yards either way

 

not because he couldn’t do more but becuase I’m not sure how much Dorsey will actually dial him up 

[Cray51]

And let me be clear, I dont believe Kincaid is a 1,000 yard rookie year guy.  I think success is 500-600 yards.

 

But watching the film from the first quarter of the year last year, Dorsey leveraged the slot role to GREAT success.  When we started trying to fill Shakir into that role, man we could not get things going.  Kincaid or Harty can really help fill gap.

 

Sub point - two TE sets will also be huge for this offense.  But that's another discussion

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, Drew21PA said:

I want to get excited about the Kincaid prospects but am turning down expectations for the kid

 

still think he will be a threat but my expectation is not 1,000 yards that’s for sure

 

im still thinking maybe 500 probably +/- 150 yards either way

 

not because he couldn’t do more but becuase I’m not sure how much Dorsey will actually dial him up 

I've said before that if Kincaid can make some plays early in the season, the threat of him will be enough.   He and Knox will force the defense to be stout in the passing game up the middle, which should create opportunities for the wideouts, and for Cook in the flats.  So, I think Kincaid could prove more important than what is reflected in his yardage.  

[Nextmanup]

They key to offensive consistency is certainly NOT Kincaid.

It's Josh, just like it always is.

 

Of course, it doesn't hurt if he can get some help.

 

Offensive line and receivers, I'm looking at you.

 

 

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

They key to offensive consistency is certainly NOT Kincaid.

It's Josh, just like it always is.

 

Of course, it doesn't hurt if he can get some help.

 

Offensive line and receivers, I'm looking at you.

 

 

That's true.   Josh and Dorsey.   Bills have the tools.  Dorsey needs to run an offense that utilizes them, and Josh has to execute it. 

 

This offense should be as multiple and as feared as the Chiefs at their best with Hill and Kelce.   

[Big Turk]

59 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Our offense will hum like it did to start the year.

 

When you go back and watch the first quarter of last year, the guy that consistently jumps out as making big time plays was - Isiah McKenzie.  They used him in the slot role, and he was an outlet Josh looked to multiple times throughout the game.  As the year went on, Isiah made some mistakes (thinking of that fumble against the Chiefs) and started to struggle.  All of a sudden, Diggs wasn't generating as much, Davis looked poor, and our offense looked disjointed.

 

This team benefits from having a true slot option.  Josh can play pocket passer more frequently if so.  If Kincaid can come in and force teams to truly defend the slot, the rest of our offense opens up BIG time.

 

I think it's the single biggest question mark on offense going into the year.

 

Our offense averaged almost 400 yards a game last year, at over 397, 2nd only to KC.

 

The people who think there was some huge "dropoff" are not basing it on facts. 

 

There was no real dropoff, they may not have looked as pretty as they did earlier in the year but they still put up yards and points.

 

I could easily see them leading the NFL in offense this year and points scored. They probably have their most loaded offense of the Allen era overall.

 

 

[Cray51]

7 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

They key to offensive consistency is certainly NOT Kincaid.

It's Josh, just like it always is.

 

Of course, it doesn't hurt if he can get some help.

 

Offensive line and receivers, I'm looking at you.

 

 

Yea I dont disagree with you.  Allen needs to take what's in front of him.  But the players in front of him need to be consistent and able to deliver.  McKenzie was not able to for a large chunk of the year last year - so much so that we brough Beasley back.

 

Kincaid has worlds more talent that McKenzie - we need to see him deliver on that talent

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Cray51 said:

Our offense will hum like it did to start the year.

 

When you go back and watch the first quarter of last year, the guy that consistently jumps out as making big time plays was - Isiah McKenzie.  They used him in the slot role, and he was an outlet Josh looked to multiple times throughout the game.  As the year went on, Isiah made some mistakes (thinking of that fumble against the Chiefs) and started to struggle.  All of a sudden, Diggs wasn't generating as much, Davis looked poor, and our offense looked disjointed.

 

This team benefits from having a true slot option.  Josh can play pocket passer more frequently if so.  If Kincaid can come in and force teams to truly defend the slot, the rest of our offense opens up BIG time.

 

I think it's the single biggest question mark on offense going into the year.

I totally agree weapons wise for Josh, but sharing that single biggest question mark on offense is how well will our revamped O-line hold up, it will look better if Kincaid produces in the slot as Josh won’t need to hold the ball as long and the line won’t have to hold up as long per play, both those things are inter woven, and crucial to short and long term success. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by Don Otreply

[Einstein's Dog]

51 minutes ago, Special K said:

Also, the 2 TE formation, a running formation on many teams, will be more of a passing formation for the Bills. This will put added stress on the D because it will be that much harder to figure out what the Bills O is doing.

 

Looking forward to seeing some confused opposing defenses this year!

I'm hoping we see Dorsey/Josh take advantage of personnel mismatches that arise with putting Kincaid out there. 

 

I hope to see some no-huddle used to keep the defense from substituting when the offense has caught the defense with a situation the Bills like.  For instance when putting Kincaid out in 12 grouping and the defense responds by putting out an extra LB.  Then the Bills might do no-huddle to force the D to have to keep that LB out there and try to cover Kincaid w an LB.  Or if the D puts out a DB when Kincaid goes out there, the Bills might want to go power smash ball and run it down their throat for a few plays.

 

 

[Rubes]

If Kincaid can learn how to block effectively, that could really create some nightmares for DCs.

 

[Airseven]

Is Kincaid a TE or WR or "weapon" or Kelce or Kupp? I'm losing track on here. Keep in mind, Beane scrambled to trade up and take him due to the run on WRs. I doubt he was the top target. He's a good prospect, but his impact on the offense will likely be subtle. At least initially.    

[BarleyNY]

3 minutes ago, Airseven said:

Is Kincaid a TE or WR or "weapon" or Kelce or Kupp? I'm losing track on here. Keep in mind, Beane scrambled to trade up and take him due to the run on WRs. I doubt he was the top target. He's a good prospect, but his impact on the offense will likely be subtle. At least initially.    

 

I think the plan is for Kincaid to be a bigger Beasley who can run after catches rather than fall down immediately. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

10 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

And if he can’t it will be more of the same of Josh and Diggs doing everything while playing back yard football 

I remember these posts last August…

🚨🚨BREAKING NEWS🚨🚨:

 

Pessimistic person continues pessimistic takes. Film at 11.

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Augie said:

The BIGGEST question mark is still OLine, but we need legit options in the slot to have a well rounded offense. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 7 yard completion that moves the chains. 

Exactly, 11 play 75 yard drives that take up 7 or more minutes off the clock are wonderful thing. It's what we saw in 2021 when Josh was being discussed as an MVP candidate. 

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

What I like is the versatility.   There's a role for a Beasley-type quick little guy in the slot, a guy who can separate from man coverage with raw quickness and change of direction.   That's a different kind of threat.   Kincaid is a Kelce-type threat in the slot, a guy who offers a big target in the open spaces in the zone.  

 

If Dorsey does it right, that will be times when Kincaid and a small slot guy are in the huddle at the same time.   If, for example, Shakir can be that slot guy, and he also can play wideout, when they're both in the huddle the defense has a real problem.   A formation with Kincaid wide and Shakir in the slot poses completely different problems for the defense than one with Kincaid in the slot and Shakir wide.   The same, maybe even better, with Kincaid on the field with Harty or Sherfield.  

 

If Kincaid is as good as he seems to be, based on camp reports, the versatility of the 11 guys on the field for the Bills will be amazing.   Think about it:   The #1 wideout is top 5 in the league, and a matchup nightmare.  The #2 wideout threatens all over the field, depending on whether it's Davis, Sherfield, Shakir, or who knows, maybe Shorter.   The slot guy threatens the middle of the field - I mean, if Kincaid can be a threat anything at all like Kelce, it would be amazing.   The running back looks like a serious three-down back who can be great in the passing game.   And the quarterback is both a great thrower and a legitimate running threat.   The Eagles might be the only offense in the league with such high-level threats throughout their entire lineup.  

even scarier is you haven't mentioned Knox, 

[boyst]

45 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

And if he can’t it will be more of the same of Josh and Diggs doing everything while playing back yard football 

I remember these posts last August…

But you're so negative. Get your reality out of here.

 

I think Kincaid improves this team. No doubt about it. Is it enough? I don't know. I see no reason to think a team won't put a LB and Safety on him. Diggs can be covered 1x1 in most cases because our OL is poor. 

 

We need a legit #2 WR and/or OL to improve to make the difference.

 

Kincaid alone won't be able to do it unless he has a historic season. That'd require an entire change in philosophy & Dorsey succeeding with 2TE sets 

[The Jokeman]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

But you're so negative. Get your reality out of here.

 

I think Kincaid improves this team. No doubt about it. Is it enough? I don't know. I see no reason to think a team won't put a LB and Safety on him. Diggs can be covered 1x1 in most cases because our OL is poor. 

 

We need a legit #2 WR and/or OL to improve to make the difference.

 

Kincaid alone won't be able to do it unless he has a historic season. That'd require an entire change in philosophy & Dorsey succeeding with 2TE sets 

Look at what Dorsey had  for talent at TE #2/slot  last season, it was dreadful. Kincaid is significantly better and because of that he should improve the offense as most have said. 

[boyst]

Just now, The Jokeman said:

Look at what Dorsey had  for talent at TE #2/slot  last season, it was dreadful. Kincaid is significantly better and because of that he should improve the offense as most have said. 

Until it's on the field and proven I don't buy it. McKenzie nearly doubled all stats of harry and Sherfield 

[The Jokeman]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

Until it's on the field and proven I don't buy it. McKenzie nearly doubled all stats of harry and Sherfield 

Harty missed 3/4th of the season. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by The Jokeman

[Ramza86]

All this sounds good....until Josh Allen gets hurried 30 times every week and cant wait for the plays to develop. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

If used correctly he is a 70 catch 800 yard guy as a rookie. Remember he is not a TE, he is a slot receiver. That is still 20 or so less receptions than Beasley had in this offense in one less game. If he only has 40 catches for 500 yards then they have a problem. 

 

Diggs should be around 105 receptions.

Then I think Davis goes for 65 receptions and at 16 YPC that puts him just over 1000 yards. 

 

That's 240 receptions of the 350-380 completions Josh will throw. The remaining 120ish receptions will be spread around to the other guys. Knox probably makes 40 or 50 of those. 

[Drew21PA]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I've said before that if Kincaid can make some plays early in the season, the threat of him will be enough.   He and Knox will force the defense to be stout in the passing game up the middle, which should create opportunities for the wideouts, and for Cook in the flats.  So, I think Kincaid could prove more important than what is reflected in his yardage.  

I can agree to that too

 

they have to start out really strong

 

my opinion is that the first 8 games in the season are all winnable and should reflect that heading into cincinatti 

 

so start strong as you indicated 

[boyst]

16 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Harty missed 3/4th of the season. 

Career wise 

 

And regardless injury takes away value. 

Edited August 9, 2023 by boyst

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

The BIGGEST question mark is still OLine, but we need legit options in the slot to have a well rounded offense. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 7 yard completion that moves the chains. 

Bills were by far the best team in the regular season from outside the redzone.  Literally the best team in the NFL at moving the chains.  There is no real upside here.  The real question is can Kincaid/Harty make us more effective in the redzone.  If they can't, then the offense will still be excellent, but it won't be better than 2022. 

[Cray51]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Our offense averaged almost 400 yards a game last year, at over 397, 2nd only to KC.

 

The people who think there was some huge "dropoff" are not basing it on facts. 

 

There was no real dropoff, they may not have looked as pretty as they did earlier in the year but they still put up yards and points.

 

I could easily see them leading the NFL in offense this year and points scored. They probably have their most loaded offense of the Allen era overall.

 

 

Before the bye week:  441 Yards of offense per game (where I said they looked good, and McKenzie was effective in his role)

After: 371 Yards of offense per game

 

You are right - we average 397 yards of offense for the year - which was helped by a tremendous start and then hurt by a REAL drop-off of 70 yards a game.

 

Even breaking down just McKenzie:

 

First 6 weeks: 26 Tgts (4.5 per game), 3 TDs

Last 10 weeks: 39 Tgts (3.9 per game), 1 TD

 

That's with injuries piling up for other players as well.

 

If Kincaid can bring 3-4 catches on 5-6 targets, for 40ish yards and play a better blocking role then McKenzie, this team improves

[boyst]

8 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Yea I mean it is a lot to ask… which fans either 1) don’t see or 2) don’t want to see because it ruins their optimism for the season.

 

If all that fails and it shows early….I hope they realize it before the trade deadline and add a legit WR opposite Diggs whatever the cost… though I don’t trust Beane to pony up picks aggressively for an all in move at the deadline. 

 

 

my first thought is if we are failing at the trade deadline we obviously dont need Knox. we would have clearly overpaid for him. trade him for a WR.

[Cray51]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

And if he can’t it will be more of the same of Josh and Diggs doing everything while playing back yard football 

I remember these posts last August…

To be fair, Crowder going down really hurt us last year.  Guy was never healthy and forced McKenzie into a role he couldnt handle

[Ethan in Cleveland]

3 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Before the bye week:  441 Yards of offense per game (where I said they looked good, and McKenzie was effective in his role)

After: 371 Yards of offense per game

 

You are right - we average 397 yards of offense for the year - which was helped by a tremendous start and then hurt by a REAL drop-off of 70 yards a game.

 

Even breaking down just McKenzie:

 

First 6 weeks: 26 Tgts (4.5 per game), 3 TDs

Last 10 weeks: 39 Tgts (3.9 per game), 1 TD

 

That's with injuries piling up for other players as well.

 

If Kincaid can bring 3-4 catches on 5-6 targets, for 40ish yards and play a better blocking role then McKenzie, this team improves

Excellent post

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

And if he can’t it will be more of the same of Josh and Diggs doing everything while playing back yard football 

Josh's backyard football is plenty enough to get us to the 20.  Even in the playoffs. Inside the 20, some combination of better RBs, better play calling, more time for the QB, and receivers more receivers getting open is needed.  
 

Imagine the Eagles without the Rugby scrum last year, or the Chiefs without Reid scheming Kelce open every time the Chiefs get to the opponents 15 yard line.  

The Bills in the McDermott era have had no red zone persona, except when they were comfortable letting Josh run QB sweeps a few years back".  Otherwise, nothing to distinguish them.  Hence ranking 14th in RZ offense last year, despite having one of the best QBs in the NFL both passing and rushing. 

[Mango]

Kincaid will fill in the slot alright. 

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

Bills were by far the best team in the regular season from outside the redzone.  Literally the best team in the NFL at moving the chains.  There is no real upside here.  The real question is can Kincaid/Harty make us more effective in the redzone.  If they can't, then the offense will still be excellent, but it won't be better than 2022. 

Harris and Murray should also be factors in the redzone as both are bigger backs compared to Singletary/Cook and more accomplished than Moss. Toss in Sherfield/Shorter brings a little more size, Harty can play the McKenzie role as quick guy and seems like Dorsey making changes as reports of Harty in the backfield as well as TEs etc. 

[Cray51]

44 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Agree… I’m not worried about regular season offense. They should manage. It’s come playoff time where I fear the weaknesses offensively will become more exposed. 

Revisionist history… McKenzie was front runner for slot even before Crowder injury… and also to be fair a Crowder injury was to be expected given his history.

It was a clearly stated roster battle going into camp last year.  Crowder got hurt (you could say it was expected, I would more say probable) at the beginning of camp, which put him on the back foot even going into preseason.  Where he then got hurt again before missing the entire regular season.

 

Simply having Crowder there may have allowed us to keep Mckenzie fresh and not force him into the role as consistently as he was in it.

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

Bills were by far the best team in the regular season from outside the redzone.  Literally the best team in the NFL at moving the chains.  There is no real upside here.  The real question is can Kincaid/Harty make us more effective in the redzone.  If they can't, then the offense will still be excellent, but it won't be better than 2022. 

 

The beginning of 2022? Or the end of 2022? The red zone is an issue for sure, but it’s not like we can ignore that it looked like we had a different offense at the end of the year after that amazing start. We can certainly be better than the way we finished last season. How much of that was the elbow injury and how much was other factors? We’ll probably never know. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

my first thought is if we are failing at the trade deadline we obviously dont need Knox. we would have clearly overpaid for him. trade him for a WR.

Don't need Knox? You have no understanding of this offense or how they will use Kincaid. 

[The Wiz]

4 hours ago, Augie said:

The BIGGEST question mark is still OLine, but we need legit options in the slot to have a well rounded offense. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 7 yard completion that moves the chains. 

Our oline could look worse.....