Allen's final throw, bad decision or bad pass?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Quintin Morris maybe he clears behind the linebacker? 

[Nephilim17]

I don't know the route expectation but if Davis keep running hard and Josh throws it higher and leads the runner it seems like a good chance of a TD to me — and unlikely that it's picked. And Davis seemed to slow down after the ball came out and was looking short and low. 

We've seen good Josh make throws like this routinely. 

[fasteddie]

The way I saw it, Morris was probably supposed to run to about the 10 yard line. When he carried his route to the post, Davis had to stop his route. This allowed Peterson to jump the route.

Morris should have kept the LB low so he would not have been in the passing lane to Davis, allowing him to keep running the post route.

I was at the game, and from where I sat, the middle of the field was wide open. Nobody draws up passing combinations like that.

Edited November 15, 2022 by fasteddie

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Just ridiculously over aggressive onn first and second downs there.

 

The ball that hit Knox in the hands in the end zone was ridiculously over aggressive?

[Bob in STL]

It was a bad pass no doubt.    More than that, given that it was not fourth down, it has to go down as another very bad decision.  

 

  

 

We all hate to say bad things about Josh because he is the franchise, lots of people look to blame other players with "what ifs" - but the reality is he is not yet a clutch performer.    Maybe he will be someday?  Right now, he still tends to make erratic and desperate plays when he does not have to.  Our team record is close games bears this out.  

Edited November 15, 2022 by Bob in STL

[Bangarang]

It was both a bad decision and a bad throw. Given the situation, there was no need to try and force that throw. 
 

Check it down to Motor, pick up an easy 7 yards at minimum and move on to the next play. Allen tried playing hero ball and it cost the team. He needs to be better. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This. To the extent there was a "makeable" throw to Davis it was a tough, low percentage play. He obviously threw it badly, who knows how much that was the injury or just a plain miss, but in the first place having gone for the endzone on 1st down (a makeable play for Knox) I think the decision to try and force a low percentage play to Davis on 2nd down when Morris for at least another first down was open was the wrong decision. And I agree totally with you and @Reed83HOF about why he went there. Finally, to cut Josh some slack I wasn't mad on the play design where everyone is running towards the endzone. If they run someone to the middle of the field just past the 1st down marker they would have been wide open based on the coverage the Vikes were showing. 

 

Josh is frustrated with himself and forcing stuff. He needs to clear his head and get back to what he was doing early in the year, taking the underneath stuff and softening the defense up before hitting them down the field. And Ken Dorsey needs to help him with a better plan, more creativity and misdirection and better playcalling. 

I think a big part of it is the team has just no confidence in their ability to punch it in in a goal to go situation.  Singletary got stuffed on every carry in the second half.  I don’t blame him for targeting the single coverage when Davis had a step but that ball was def off target

 

that’s a pretty routine play against man and it’s likely a td with a better throw 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

11 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

It was a bad pass no doubt.    More than that, given that it was not fourth down, it has to go down as another very bad decision.  

 

I don't know if he saw McKenzie get pushed out of bounds but even if not, it was a lack of awareness on Allen's part to even make that throw when you have more time and more plays.   Throw it away and live to fight on.   

 

We all hate to say bad things about Josh because he is the franchise, lots of people look to blame other players with "what ifs" - but the reality is he not yet a clutch performer.    Maybe he will be someday?  Right now, he still tends to make erratic and desperate plays when he does not have to.  Our team record is close games bears this out.  

I’m all for criticizing him when he deserves it and the throw itself was absolutely awful no matter what one believes about the read/decision…but not a clutch performer is a huge stretch.  
 

he was on his way to the statistically best playoff run for a qb in history when the defense choked against kc last year with two of the most clutch late drives I’ve ever seen back to back…he had comeback wins over kc and baltimore this year,  he and gabe bailed us out big time in the bills colts playoff game two years ago, tons of examples of him being clutch in big moments 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Bob in STL]

Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I’m all for criticizing him when he deserves it and the throw itself was absolutely awful no matter what one believes about the read/decision…but not a clutch performer is a huge stretch.  
 

he was on his way to the statistically best playoff run for a qb in history when the defense choked against kc last year with two of the most clutch late drives I’ve ever seen back to back…he had comeback wins over kc and baltimore this year,  he and gabe bailed us out big time in the bills colts playoff game two years ago, tons of examples of him being clutch in big moments 

He is a great player.  Best player on the team, one of the best in the league - OK.  He is clutch in some moments and not so clutch in other moments.  Like the past two Sundays.  

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

16 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

He is a great player.  Best player on the team, one of the best in the league - OK.  He is clutch in some moments and not so clutch in other moments.  Like the past two Sundays.  

No disagreement there…he blew this one on the fumble alone without anything else needed as evidence and there’s plenty of stuff you can pile on top of that. 
 

but even someone like mahomes falls on his face sometimes in a big moment like the afc championship last year. 
 

If he starts coming up small in big moments in the playoffs then I might start to agree with your original point a bit more 

 

it’s pretty criminal how many clutch drives he’s had spoiled by poopy defensive play if we’re talking about his career overall.  Arizona and KC last year immediately come to mind 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Bookie Man]

Both

[B-Large]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The throw is already behind Davis. If he flattens the route the throw is just even further behind him.

 Davis is already heading toward the back of the end zone before that pass is released.  That pass needed to be aimed at the right upright.

 

that vid isn't full speed I don't think, maybe it looks different if it is.

 

Looks like a bad pass to me.  Maybe, maybe if Gabe flattens that route and blocks out the defender.  Maybe.

 

Seems like a stinker.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 minutes ago, B-Large said:

 Davis is already heading toward the back of the end zone before that pass is released.  That pass needed to be aimed at the right upright.

 

that vid isn't full speed I don't think, maybe it looks different if it is.

 

Looks like a bad pass to me.  Maybe, maybe if Gabe flattens that route and blocks out the defender.  Maybe.

 

Seems like a stinker.

That’s what I think too…it’s hardly a risky play imo.  99% of the time that’s a td or incompletion out the back of the end zone.  If you’re gonna throw a ball that off target everything is a risky play though 🤣

 

I think he didn’t see Harrison smith biting as hard as he thought he would  on the other post route after he pumped and got spooked and overthought it.  Unfortunately Harrison smith did bite hard on the other post lol you can see the absolute panic in smith as he does a desperation dive late to get to the other post route haha he probably thought gabe was wide open behind him with the game winning td 

 

both sides are probably correct here…the presnap read was good and if he trusted it mid play he would’ve been fine but it looks like he panicked a little bit just before releasing the ball and at that point just check it down to somebody 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[EastTNBillsfan]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

He's not been on the same page with Gabe alot this year. I personally thought Gabe was never open to begin with and Josh should've thrown it away. 

I know he hasn't, but I still think a healthy Josh makes that throw. But maybe I'm wrong. 

 

I also think running it was his best option, but we've seen him thread that needle many times before. 

[TheBrownBear]

Yep.  Saw this yesterday.  It was just a terrible throw.  I think he just came to him late and made a bad toss of the football.  He had a few throws on Sunday that were off but he was bailed out by his receivers.  That one unfortunately went right into Peterson's breadbasket.  

[B-Large]

3 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

That’s what I think too…it’s hardly a risky play imo.  99% of the time that’s a td or incompletion out the back of the end zone.  If you’re gonna throw a ball that off target everything is a risky play though 🤣

 

I think he didn’t see Harrison smith biting that hard on the other post route after he pumped and got spooked and overthought it.  Unfortunately Harrison smith did bite hard on the other post lol you can see the absolute panic in smith as he does a desperation dive late to get to the other post route haha he probably thought gabe was wide open behind him with the game winning td 

 

LOL, the more I watch, the more I see a massive gap for him to run and pickup some yardage against 1 LB , or an easy gainer to an well rested, underutilized Motor.

 

but you're right, thrown up high and away, either Gabe makes a grab or we play the next down.  

 

Easiest INT that Vike will make this year,  Oh well, moving on I guess....

[Bob in STL]

8 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

No disagreement there…he blew this one on the fumble alone without anything else needed as evidence and there’s plenty of stuff you can pile on top of that. 
 

but even someone like mahomes falls on his face sometimes in a big moment like the afc championship last year. 

 

True, but Mahomes has been to the SB and has a ring.  

 

No players make every play every time.   We have a hard time seeing errors with Allen because he is so damn good most of the time and such a stand up guy that puts it on his shoulders.  Without him we are a .500 team.  

[B-Large]

6 minutes ago, EastTNBillsfan said:

I know he hasn't, but I still think a healthy Josh makes that throw. But maybe I'm wrong. 

 

I also think running it was his best option, but we've seen him thread that needle many times before. 

 

I think it's the decision that's a stumper.  Gabe isn't open, and that wasn't a pass thrown to a precise spot.  I love Josh, but he messed up on that one.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

But we all can agree, there’s nothing easy about that throw to any of those WRs in the end zone. 
 

There is nothing obviously wide open short of the end zone.

 

Singletary is the only dump off option and like we’ve said, he’s late. 
 

McKenzie to Josh’s left is completely blanketed.

 

Thats where I still say, play design or the actual route run was poor, because there just wasn’t any space to get a ball in there easily.

 

Throwing to the other side of the linebacker as Quintin Morris clears is possible, but not easy. 
 

Gabe, the ball would have to be much higher and centered. 
 

And I don’t what Diggs was doing on the left hand side enough to see if he was open.

 

Josh forced a bad design. 

[IronyAbounds]

17 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

He is a great player.  Best player on the team, one of the best in the league - OK.  He is clutch in some moments and not so clutch in other moments.  Like the past two Sundays.  

You can't say he wasn't clutch against KC last year. He's not the one that screwed up the 12 seconds.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

It’s a bad ball by Josh, behind Gabe.

 

Just not an easy throw there, but higher and to Josh’s left it may have squeaked in there.

 

Morris just adds confusion to that route IMO.

[B-Large]

7 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

But we all can agree, there’s nothing easy about that throw to any of those WRs in the end zone. 
 

There is nothing obviously wide open short of the end zone.

 

Singletary is the only dump off option and like we’ve said, he’s late. 
 

McKenzie to Josh’s left is completely blanketed.

 

Thats where I still say, play design or the actual route run was poor, because there just wasn’t any space to get a ball in there easily.

 

Throwing to the other side of the linebacker as Quintin Morris clears is possible, but not easy. 
 

Gabe, the ball would have to be much higher and centered. 
 

And I don’t what Diggs was doing on the left hand side enough to see if he was open.

 

Josh forced a bad design. 

 

Feel like that is a throw had it been high to the back of the endzone, would be easy one for Josh Allen. 

 

I'd have like to see Davis' route angled off the corner of the endzone on that play, it was very congested in the middle toward the goal line

 

I should be designing plays its so easy! LOL

 

 

 

While we're at it, anybody have footage of Wide Right, 13 Seconds or my unsung favorite, Leodis McKelvin being stripped by the Patriots on Monday night football when we had the Pats beat, in Foxboro nonetheless?

 

Painful to watch!  LOL

Edited November 15, 2022 by B-Large

[frostbitmic]

Bad Decision - Absolutely

 

Bad Pass - The Viking DB that intercepted it will tell you it was a perfect pass.

[BananaB]

He ain’t clutch but it wasnmt him who dropped a TD pass in the endzone on first down. 😂 How about hitting Davis on 4th down from 70 yards away? Sometimes your just only as good as your supporting cast. Allen and Diggs are the only guys with any consistency on this offense. 
 

As far as the Int seems to be a lot of speculation of what went wrong there. 

Edited November 15, 2022 by BananaB

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 minutes ago, B-Large said:

 

Feel like that is a throw had it been high to the back of the endzone, would be easy one for Josh Allen. 

 

I'd have like to see Davis' route angled off the corner of the endzone on that play, it was very congested in the middle toward the goal line

 

I should be designing plays its so easy! LOL

While we're at it, anybody have footage of Wide Right, 13 Seconds or my unsung favorite, Leodis McKelvin being stripped by the Patriots on Monday night football when we had the Pats beat, in Foxboro nonetheless?

 

Painful to watch!  LOL

I just don’t like the spacing there. 
 

It was a bad ball, came out late, was behind Gabe and low.

 

But that’s a high degree of difficulty we’re asking for there, nothing easy about that throw. 
 

Not one throw there was easy yards except waiting for Singletary to dump off, and he gets tackled after a 5-yard gain 

[B-Large]

1 minute ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I just don’t like the spacing there. 
 

It was a bad ball, came out late, was behind Gabe and low.

 

But that’s a high degree of difficulty we’re asking for there, nothing easy about that throw. 
 

Not one throw there was easy yards except waiting for Singletary to dump off, and he gets tackled after a 5-yard gain 

 

The middle of the field was jammed, it almost looks like Allen could have taken off the left and had a decent chance to score.. there was a lot of green.

 

But yeah, no separation anywhere.  Play just felt ugly.

[BullBuchanan]

It's both a bad throw and a bad decision. Josh is trowing directly into the strength of what appears to be Cover 4. Could he make it? Sure, but this is a game about percentages and this defense is designed specifically to make this a low percentage throw. Against lesser QBs it would be practically impossible, but because Josh is Josh he says ***** you and throws it anyway. This time even he's not good enough to beat the stacked odds against him.

Cover 4 opens up the underneath routes which he had in a wide open Singletary.

This is not new behavior from Josh. He's done it his whole career and I posted a video from Brett Kollman about how the Dolphins figured him our last year, but just didn't have the talent to beat him. Now they do and apparently a lot of the league has the same playbook. If Josh doesn't adapt, this will keep happening. He can't fix it with better throws. He has to put his ego aside and take what the defense gives. It's then up to Dorsey to figure out ways to get Josh what he wants by countering the defense.

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, BananaB said:

Rarely see this miscommunication with Diggs. Last week on the Sauce INT Allen threw inside and Gabe went out. Bad throw plus miscommunication on someones part. We don’t know, just like we don’t know about Sunday. 

 

It was a bad throw.  I'm trying to communicate to you.  There seems to be some miscommunication.

 

Gabe was running the route.  He caught 6 passes for 94 yards and a TD on 9 targets (one target thrown to Defender--see above.).

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

17 minutes ago, B-Large said:

 

LOL, the more I watch, the more I see a massive gap for him to run and pickup some yardage against 1 LB , or an easy gainer to an well rested, underutilized Motor.

 

but you're right, thrown up high and away, either Gabe makes a grab or we play the next down.  

 

Easiest INT that Vike will make this year,  Oh well, moving on I guess....

Lol the Peterson quote about how they defended it well cuz they know josh or whatever he said made me chuckle.  I don’t think the Vikings could’ve defended that play much worse.  They gave the first read a step in single coverage for a 50/50 ball for a td that should’ve been incomplete at worst.  They left Morris open underneath,  nobody picked up singletary on his delayed route after the block, they left big running lanes open too 

 

josh just had a straight up split second brain fart 

[Scott7975]

7 hours ago, Pete said:

horrible throw and a worse decision.  He should of dumped it to wide open Singletary who had a great shot of scoring

 

At the time Josh Allen started that throw, Singletary wasnt even past the LoS yet because he helped on a block.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Scott7975

[Beck Water]

31 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I just don’t like the spacing there. 
 

It was a bad ball, came out late, was behind Gabe and low.

 

But that’s a high degree of difficulty we’re asking for there, nothing easy about that throw. 
 

Not one throw there was easy yards except waiting for Singletary to dump off, and he gets tackled after a 5-yard gain 

 

In one of the screen shots I've seen Diggs to the L, well short of the goal line - what was his coverage?

 

In any event, situational awareness: it's 2nd and 10 from the 20 yd line with 1:19 left.  A dump off to an RB who gets tackled after a 5 yd gain makes it 3rd and 5 from the 15 yd line. 

 

A throw with a top DB in close coverage and able to break between the receiver and the QB, I think is pretty risky even if the ball is thrown a bit earlier and ahead of Gabe.  Whether Gabe could have run his route differently in a way that would have boxed the DB out, I can't tell.

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If no one is open, you don't throw it or throw it away.

 

It sounds like you're saying all play designs should have open WR.  

Right. People seem to think the coaches know what the defense will look like and then should call rhe right play.  That's silly.  

 

This play was designed properly.  If the defense was straight man, or of they were blitzing, there would be opportunities downfield.  If the defense dropped, the opportunities were short.  Allen didn't execute. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

56 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

I just don’t like the spacing there. 
 

It was a bad ball, came out late, was behind Gabe and low.

 

But that’s a high degree of difficulty we’re asking for there, nothing easy about that throw. 
 

Not one throw there was easy yards except waiting for Singletary to dump off, and he gets tackled after a 5-yard gain 

 And a first and goal right? 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

5 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

It was a horrible decision.  They took the TD shot on first down. Second down should have been to get the first down.

After the decision to go to Davis it was a horrible throw. It was behind and short. The only way yo complete that pass is high arcing pass that Davis catches at the back boundary.  Its a throw Allen can make and has in the past.

 

Now if Davis ran the wrong route or incorrectly adjusted his route and he was supposed to check up at the 3 yard line in front of the defender, then maybe the throw was where it was supposed to go. In that case it is still a horrible decision to go to Davis as there were better options.

I think the bolded is true.

 

It would have to be a much higher pass under the goal post and Gabe would have to leap up and catch it.

 

Much like the Stetson Bennett pass during the UGA Miss St game.

[HappyDays]

Here's Patrick Peterson breaking it down:

 

We have a big problem if opposing defenses know exactly what route we're going to run and where Allen will throw the ball based on the coverage.

 

He basically says that Davis only runs a couple routes and pretty much always runs inside post in the red zone. That makes it way too easy for a veteran DB to make a play on the ball. Dorsey needs to add some red zone wrinkles, fast. We've been figured out.

[Scott7975]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Here's Patrick Peterson breaking it down:

 

We have a big problem if opposing defenses know exactly what route we're going to run and where Allen will throw the ball based on the coverage.

 

He basically says that Davis only runs a couple routes and pretty much always runs inside post in the red zone. That makes it way too easy for a veteran DB to make a play on the ball. Dorsey needs to add some red zone wrinkles, fast. We've been figured out.

 

Yup.  Dorsey aint it.  Whats strange though is I keep hearing about how our offense is complicated and tough to pick up.  I heard this again as to why Hines hasnt been more involved yet.

 

Edit: This is not to say that Dorsey cant be it but so far he isnt.  We also need another playmaker. I hope that we get OBJ. I know some people dont want him but he is a talent.  The Bills need more talent on O than just Josh and Diggs.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Scott7975

[transplantbillsfan]

10 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Found this on Twitter today, it's the final throw of the game from Allen's perspective.  

 

The decision looked good, the pass looked late and off target. 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting that but you left out 1 other option that's possible.

 

Miscommunication.

 

Watch that clip frame by frame.  If Davis cuts across the field rather than diagonally into the end zone Peterson doesn't get the chance to get in front of him.  To me the 2 choices should be bad throw or miscommunication or bad throw.  And I certainly wonder myself.

 

Regardless... Allen and Davis haven't been on the same page this year.

[Lane Meyer K12]

Seems like maybe it was a bad route more than anything else. He threw to a spot. 

[Green Lightning]

9 hours ago, Freak-O said:

Interesting angle. It’s not a bad decision after all but a poor throw. I can cut him some slack due to the elbow thing. Maybe he shouldn’t have attempted it with the sore elbow but on the other hand there’s hardly much time to ponder in such a situation. He saw a receiver and instinctively made a throw that usually hits home. 

Like the Jets pick, go up top and not chest high and it would have worked. Bad decision on where to put the ball. 

[BullBuchanan]

35 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Here's Patrick Peterson breaking it down:

 

We have a big problem if opposing defenses know exactly what route we're going to run and where Allen will throw the ball based on the coverage.

 

 

do you think this is a Bills thing? what do you think film study is all about?

 

this is literally what football is.