Knox lack of involvement

[JMM]

Obviously he's not on the level of a Kelce, and he had the tragedy with his brother in the beginning of the year. But I was very hopeful he would take the next step this year and be more involved.  He certainly has the athleticism to for instance get down the seam but you never see it. My question is this a scheme issue? For those that watch closely or have access to all 22 what routes is he running? Is he getting free release or are they holding him in to chip or block in support of the O line which is weak on the right side? It just seems to me this could take some pressure off of Josh and eventually open things up for the wrs as well.

[Dablitzkrieg]

He's running the "I'm staying in to block because my oline sucks" routes

[Mango]

Just now, Dablitzkrieg said:

He's running the "I'm staying in to block because my oline sucks" routes

Is this even true?

 

People keep saying this but I would actually love some data around routes run vs. snap count. 
 

Trying not to be hard on Knox because his life is hard. But I don’t even know if this is true. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

Just now, Mango said:

Is this even true?

 

People keep saying this but I would actually love some data around routes run vs. snap count. 
 

Trying not to be hard on Knox because his life is hard. But I don’t even know if this is true. 

Go look it up.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Like @Dablitzkrieg said, he’s not be asked to run the same routes as last year. 
 

Maybe it’s time to start turning him loose    and use him as a weapon instead of a catch-all

[Bferra13]

I'm still trying to figure out why kumerow sees any snaps on offense. As for Knox, yeah hes blocking for our crap line from what I can see.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Bferra13

[EmotionallyUnstable]

8 minutes ago, Mango said:

Is this even true?

 

People keep saying this but I would actually love some data around routes run vs. snap count. 
 

Trying not to be hard on Knox because his life is hard. But I don’t even know if this is true. 

Statistically, he has seen fewer targets (to this point) and a fewer target share percentage than last season. 

[Mango]

7 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Go look it up.

Thanks for adding so much to the conversation and being a reasonable human to a reasonable question. 
 

But sure, here you go. Knox is running routes on 5.6% less plays than he did in 2021. In the last 3 weeks his decline is less than 5% decrease in routes run. 

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dawson-knox/#bio

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/snap-count-analysis/?team=BUF&snaps=10

 

Go find a more accurate hill to die on and stop being such a curmudgeon. Maybe you should have tried looking it up…
 

 

8 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Statistically, he has seen fewer targets (to this point) and a fewer target share percentage than last season. 

He isn’t running less routes though. Everybody keeps parroting that it’s because he’s blocking so much more….but he’s not. He’s just being targeted less. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Daboll >>>>>>Dorsey

[LABILLBACKER]

All I know is he's not near as productive anymore.  He's averaging 2 catches & 26 yards per game. I know our OL sucks but 53M is alot to pay a blocker. 

[ArtVandalay]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

Is this even true?

 

People keep saying this but I would actually love some data around routes run vs. snap count. 
 

Trying not to be hard on Knox because his life is hard. But I don’t even know if this is true. 

 

2 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Go look it up.

Prior to his injury he ran the 8th most routes of any TE in the league, that figure with injury and bye is still the 17th most in the league of any TE and hes run a route on 70% of the teams pass plays.

 

So he runs plenty, the blocking excuse is BS.

 

He's just not refined as a receiver and hasn't made any improvement.  On the INT today he's running vertical instead of horizontal when Allen rolls.  Fundamental breakdown.

 

The lack of development given his contract reward is terrifying. These type of deals are what land your cap in hot water. Gave him a pass for the first month, but need to produce, there's been zero development from last year. 

[Brand J]

The contract extension was curious (given his production to date) and no bueno. I maintain it would’ve been smarter to wait until after the season to see how he fared in Dorsey’s offense, even if it meant a slightly higher dollar amount at the end, than paying him the 6th highest salary at the start of the league year. Wonder if Beane has any buyer’s remorse. 

[Mango]

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

All I know is he's not near as productive anymore.  He's averaging 2 catches & 26 yards per game. I know our OL sucks but 53M is alot to pay a blocker. 

Not to over correct. But he’s running routes at about the same rate as last season. 
 

2021: 75.4% of snaps he runs routes.

2022: 69.8% of snaps he runs routes. But 70.7% the last 3 weeks. 
 

[MasterStrategist]

5 minutes ago, Mango said:

Thanks for adding so much to the conversation and being a reasonable human to a reasonable question. 
 

But sure, here you go. Knox is running routes on 5.6% less plays than he did in 2021. In the last 3 weeks his decline is less than 5% decrease in routes run. 

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dawson-knox/#bio

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/snap-count-analysis/?team=BUF&snaps=10

 

Go find a more accurate hill to die on and stop being such a curmudgeon. Maybe you should have tried looking it up…
 

 

He isn’t running less routes though. Everybody keeps parroting that it’s because he’s blocking so much more….but he’s not. He’s just being targeted less. 

You could be right, but just based on watching (not reviewing every single game/play), it seems we are using Knox alot to chip & release.

 

Against Rams and Miami, they both rushed 5 or more, and definitely seemed like Knox stayed in to block (no release in those games).

 

Not sure how that site you reference accounts for chip/release, in terms of routes ran.  But bottom line is Knox definitely can be a mismatch, and we're not seeming to utilize/execute plays to him.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

10 minutes ago, Mango said:

Thanks for adding so much to the conversation and being a reasonable human to a reasonable question. 
 

But sure, here you go. Knox is running routes on 5.6% less plays than he did in 2021. In the last 3 weeks his decline is less than 5% decrease in routes run. 

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dawson-knox/#bio

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/snap-count-analysis/?team=BUF&snaps=10

 

Go find a more accurate hill to die on and stop being such a curmudgeon. Maybe you should have tried looking it up…
 

 

He isn’t running less routes though. Everybody keeps parroting that it’s because he’s blocking so much more….but he’s not. He’s just being targeted less. 

fair enough.

 

Additionally I will add that his yards per catch and yards before catch are lower this season as well, which theoretically could be linked to him being asked to stay in and help out more before releasing into his route.

[Mango]

1 minute ago, MasterStrategist said:

You could be right, but just based on watching (not reviewing every single game/play), it seems we are using Knox alot to chip & release.

 

Against Rams and Miami, they both rushed 5 or more, and definitely seemed like Knox stayed in to block (no release in those games).

 

Not sure how that site you reference accounts for chip/release, in terms of routes ran.  But bottom line is Knox definitely can be a mismatch, and we're not seeming to utilize/execute plays to him.

He is on pace to have the second best year of his career. As Knox starts to get his feet back under him he’ll likely firmly cement himself as his second best year and push for his best year ever.

 

The issue is his contract. His historical production didn’t warrant the value. We’ve never run an offense that relied on TE. 

[Nextmanup]

9 minutes ago, Mango said:

Thanks for adding so much to the conversation and being a reasonable human to a reasonable question. 
 

But sure, here you go. Knox is running routes on 5.6% less plays than he did in 2021. In the last 3 weeks his decline is less than 5% decrease in routes run. 

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dawson-knox/#bio

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/reports/snap-count-analysis/?team=BUF&snaps=10

 

Go find a more accurate hill to die on and stop being such a curmudgeon. Maybe you should have tried looking it up…
 

 

He isn’t running less routes though. Everybody keeps parroting that it’s because he’s blocking so much more….but he’s not. He’s just being targeted less. 

I think it's a function of scheming, yes.  If someone is going to say "We need to get Knox more involved as a receiver," it would almost have to be Dorsey, and plays/routes would need to be designed to effect that goal.

 

Now, if Knox started running a bunch of pass routes but could never get open such that Josh never throws him the ball, that would be on Knox.  I do not think that's predominantly been the case though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, Mango said:

Not to over correct. But he’s running routes at about the same rate as last season. 
 

2021: 75.4% of snaps he runs routes.

2022: 69.8% of snaps he runs routes. But 70.7% the last 3 weeks. 
 

a consideration and I’m not sure it changes anything but a tight end may see large change in assignment with being in line and chipping a rusher first vs a route where they are split wide for instance. 

[Mango]

Just now, Nextmanup said:

I think it's a function of scheming, yes.  If someone is going to say "We need to get Knox more involved as a receiver," it would almost have to be Dorsey, and plays/routes would need to be designed to effect that goal.

 

Now, if Knox started running a bunch of pass routes but could never get open such that Josh never throws him the ball, that would be on Knox.  I do not think that's predominantly been the case though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Im not trying to run the guy out of town. It is a tough year to judge any guy by their performance at work. 
 

I also don’t think you can judge the OC for a physically and emotionally bruised TE that has never actually been the guy fans are expecting him to be. 
 

 

[Rc2catch]

I would have to put some blame on josh and Dorsey. He’s locked onto Diggs and nothing wrong with that. But he’s not willing to play the 10-15 yard part of the field unless it’s an RPO and it’s been a fail most times he throws to Davis on those. He’s 15+ down the field or running or throwing it to the backs. 
I haven’t watched close enough to know how many crossing routes are ran. It seems we have a lot more RPO this year and Knox is never involved for that as a receiver obviously. They are going to need to tweak some things. 

[Mango]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

a consideration and I’m not sure it changes anything but a tight end may see large change in assignment with being in line and chipping a rusher first vs a route where they are split wide for instance. 

Knox lines up in the slot 18% of the time, compared to 21% last year. 
 

 

6 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

I think it's a function of scheming, yes.  If someone is going to say "We need to get Knox more involved as a receiver," it would almost have to be Dorsey, and plays/routes would need to be designed to effect that goal.

 

Now, if Knox started running a bunch of pass routes but could never get open such that Josh never throws him the ball, that would be on Knox.  I do not think that's predominantly been the case though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NoSaint]

Just now, Mango said:

Knox lines up in the slot 18% of the time, compared to 21% last year. 
 

 

good info!

 

I always get curious about the data vs just creating a storyline out of thin air to support an idea 

[GoBills808]

I think he may still be more banged up than we realize 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

good info!

 

I always get curious about the data vs just creating a storyline out of thin air to support an idea 

Same sort of thing as you. But thanks to BK’s snarky response I looked it up.
 

When I asked earlier in the thread I actually didn’t think that info was available. Luckily fantasy football has exploded and that’s something those guys track.

Who knew?

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Is this even true?

 

People keep saying this but I would actually love some data around routes run vs. snap count. 
 

Trying not to be hard on Knox because his life is hard. But I don’t even know if this is true. 

 

It’s a good question.  Knox is running a lot of routes, because even when he stays in to block or chip he often leaks out on a route.  The route where Josh got picked, he stayed in to block then released down the sideline.  But the Jets had “seen that movie” before and someone hustled over there, so when Josh threw to Knox on a line instead of with an arc, it got picked.

 

I know I’ve seen him running intermediate routes, but I can’t give you a number.

 

If anyone can tell me how to get my mitts on real all-22 where I can select individual plays, I’d go through and chart it.

[Victory Formation]

Knox is playing bad because he’s depressed for obvious reasons. God bless him.

[Beck Water]

48 minutes ago, Mango said:

Same sort of thing as you. But thanks to BK’s snarky response I looked it up.
 

When I asked earlier in the thread I actually didn’t think that info was available. Luckily fantasy football has exploded and that’s something those guys track.

Who knew?

 

Where did you find this?

[Mango]

Just now, Beck Water said:

 

Where did you find this?

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dawson-knox/#

[Brand J]

2 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Knox is playing bad because he’s depressed for obvious reasons. God bless him.

I can’t really even say that he’s been playing bad because the ball hasn’t found him much, at all. We don’t see the routes where Knox wins and Allen never looks his way. It’d be another thing if he was getting the opportunities and not making the most of them. Allen just doesn’t use his TE like Brady or Mahomes.

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dawson-knox/#

 

Oh, that’s great!  Thank you!  So there’s the answer - he’s had 325 offensive snaps, and he’s run 164 routes.

5 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I can’t really even say that he’s been playing bad because the ball hasn’t found him much, at all. We don’t see the routes where Knox wins and Allen never looks his way. It’d be another thing if he was getting the opportunities and not making the most of them. Allen just doesn’t use his TE like Brady or Mahomes.

 

When I’ve looked at some all 22,  I’ve seen him open.  He’s usually the intermediate option and Josh goes for the deep guy.

 

[Victory Formation]

15 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I can’t really even say that he’s been playing bad because the ball hasn’t found him much, at all. We don’t see the routes where Knox wins and Allen never looks his way. It’d be another thing if he was getting the opportunities and not making the most of them. Allen just doesn’t use his TE like Brady or Mahomes.

Explain Knox’s past production then? Before he was playing like a top 10 TE, now he’s just a guy.

[Brand J]

3 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

Explain Knox’s past production then? Before he was playing like a top 10 TE, now he’s just a guy.

You can’t make plays if the ball doesn’t come to you. You’re just assuming Knox is at fault and/or playing badly. That doesn’t necessarily have to be the case.

[JerseyBills]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

All I know is he's not near as productive anymore.  He's averaging 2 catches & 26 yards per game. I know our OL sucks but 53M is alot to pay a blocker. 

One of the only contracts I didn't like. If Dorsey is going to use him like this, it's pointless to pay him that.

Should've waited til next year

[Mark Vader]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Is this even true?

 

People keep saying this but I would actually love some data around routes run vs. snap count. 
 

Trying not to be hard on Knox because his life is hard. But I don’t even know if this is true. 

You haven't noticed how often he has been staying on the line or lining up as an H-Back this year?

[Mango]

1 minute ago, Mark Vader said:

You haven't noticed how often he has been staying on the line or lining up as an H-Back this year?

 
Keep reading through the thread. This is actually a data point and there is no significant difference in his route running or percentage of snaps lined up in the slot. 

[Buffarukus]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

The contract extension was curious (given his production to date) and no bueno. I maintain it would’ve been smarter to wait until after the season to see how he fared in Dorsey’s offense, even if it meant a slightly higher dollar amount at the end, than paying him the 6th highest salary at the start of the league year. Wonder if Beane has any buyer’s remorse. 

 

i agree with this. id think poyer was a proven commodity worth a early extension if you want to secure talent. i was never in the knox is garbage club many were but he litterally just became a threat in the passing game for the first time his ENTIRE career not long ago. i get he has a high ceiling but there wouldn't be a desperate need by this team for a pass catching rb if knox showed the promise of being a outlet he was trending towards. coaches or knoxs? either way here's to josh and knox getting that connection back we have seen in the past.

[Mark Vader]

7 minutes ago, Mango said:

 
Keep reading through the thread. This is actually a data point and there is no significant difference in his route running or percentage of snaps lined up in the slot. 

Yes, I read through the thread. 

 

My point is that there have been many occasions, especially during the first 3 or 4 games where Knox was lining up as an H-Back and lining up on the line.

Considerably more than last year. There is no denying that.

 

Now that looks to have changed over the last few weeks, but Knox is not having the same type of season that he had before.

 

While the loss of his brother probably has had a huge mental impact on him, I do not think it is preventing him from giving his all when he's on the field.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

Not to over correct. But he’s running routes at about the same rate as last season. 
 

2021: 75.4% of snaps he runs routes.

2022: 69.8% of snaps he runs routes. But 70.7% the last 3 weeks. 
 

He can run routes till he's blue in the face. But he's either not getting open or Josh isn't seeing him.

[Nephilim17]

11 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

He can run routes till he's blue in the face. But he's either not getting open or Josh isn't seeing him.

It would be good if someone with All 22 can answer this. Josh saw him in the past though... So it is he offensive scheming now?

[UConn James]

Knox was open in the flat on a pass play, and Josh ignored it and went deep right, incomplete. Didn’t keep notes but it was in the second half. Some terrible decisions by QB1 today. Tried to go for the home run throw too many times rather than taking what was there.

Edited November 7, 2022 by UConn James