NFLPA initiating investigation into Tua’s concussion protocol

[UKBillFan]

8 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Doyle was injured in game it appears and pretty sure he didn’t come back into the game after the injury. Your trying to tie the two events seems like a reach. Not to mention a knee injury compared to a brain injury is like comparing apples to oranges. 

 

I read someone say that we put Doyle out there with an ACL over Brown - I wsn't sure at the time how true that was. Injury is still injury though, yes, concerns around concussion carries extra weight.

[RiotAct]

1 hour ago, YoloinOhio said:

Is this guy for real? 

 

Did Tua laugh like this?

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

The fingers! Yikes!

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

 

 

Lip service?

[1ManRaid]

38 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

From the NFL website:

 

 

A blind man can see that wasnt orthopedic.

 

He was able to laugh during a movie?  Ok hes good for next week.

 

Thanks, it passes me off that they ignored the "or receives a report that..." part of the protocol.  The NFL's chief medical examiner admitted they don't take video evidence into account when making their concussion determination, which is stupid because I can't believe the easily available video of him being loopy wouldn't have been available to count as a "report".

[stevewin]

1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

 

 

Maybe I wasn't watching as much sports coverage early in the week (usually always less after a Bills loss) - mostly some GMFB with NFL employees dutifully parrotting the NFL scripted talking points "Turns out he only hurt his back!" (with a straight face) - but where were all these talking heads with their outrage earlier in the week after what happened Sun?

 

It seems to me the NFL's playbook to respond to this has to be to throw Miami under the bus - a rogue organization behaving irresponsibly in an isolated incident - and I'm fine with that.

Edited September 30, 2022 by stevewin

[The Wiz]

2 minutes ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

Thanks, it passes me off that they ignored the "or receives a report that..." part of the protocol.  The NFL's chief medical examiner admitted they don't take video evidence into account when making their concussion determination, which is stupid because I can't believe the easily available video of him being loopy wouldn't have been available to count as a "report".

With that explanation they have plausible deniability.  Doesn't matter what happened on the field if he passes the test according to NFL concussion protocol.  

 

That's likely the reason they don't use video evidence as part of the report.

[Warcodered]

 

[Captain Caveman]

1 hour ago, FrenchConnection said:

They're still not treating this seriously. Here is a quote from a concussion information sheet:

 

"Limit activities that require a lot of thinking or concentration (including social activities, homework, video games, texting, computer, driving, job-related activities, movies, parties). These activities can slow the brain's recovery."

 

Yes MacGruber is a movie, but to be fair I'd say it's the opposite of "requiring a lot of thinking"

[stevewin]

1 minute ago, The Wiz said:

With that explanation they have plausible deniability.  Doesn't matter what happened on the field if he passes the test according to NFL concussion protocol.  

 

That's likely the reason they don't use video evidence as part of the report.

So is the whole spotter thing - person who watches for evidence of concussion during the game and calls down if anything is suspected - is that only to get the player looked at, and the on field visual evidence isn't used at all in the asessment?

[The Wiz]

2 minutes ago, stevewin said:

So is the whole spotter thing - person who watches for evidence of concussion during the game and calls down if anything is suspected - is that only to get the player looked at, and the on field visual evidence isn't used at all in the asessment?

no idea.  I don't remember if the Dr. said where the report comes from.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nfl-claims-concussion-protocols-didnt-fail-tua-tagovailoa-on-sunday-thats-hard-to-believe-after-thursdays-scary-head-injury-051800394.html
 

NFL claims concussion protocols didn’t fail Tua Tagovailoa on Sunday. That’s hard to believe after Thursday’s scary head injury

[BrooklynBills]

Definitely learned a lot more about the concussion protocol through all this.  I think learning that the team doctor still has final say allows us to make a few logical conclusions. I don't think there is some grand conspiracy here but I do think this exposes a huge crack in the system.

 

Some facts that have become clearer:

1. The Independent Neurologist administers the baseline tests. HE DOES NOT DETERMINE IF HE IS CLEARED TO PLAY.

2. The Team doctor has final say and can make a determination that a "no-go" symptom is caused by an orthopedic issue.

 

In the Bills game, Tua stumbling after the hit would TYPICALLY result in the "no-go" policy that is established. This is the reason that Mahomes was pulled out of that game two years ago.  He had a head collision and was wobbly getting up. He passed the concussion tests but the doctors would not let him go back in because of the "no-go" policy. 

 

With the Tua situation, if the team doctor had determined that the back injury caused the wobbliness and Tua passed the baseline test, then the protocol allows him to go in the game AND not have to be in concussion protocol(because he passed the test).  **This is where it gets very tricky because the we don't know the team doctor's motives.**  The HC can completely isolate himself from the situation because he just plays who the doctors say can play.

 

We all know that players can have concussions and pass the baseline test (Andrew Whitworth described a situation with himself last night).  I would assume guys have passed the baseline test and were kept out because of the "no-go" situation (like the Mahomes situation). Ultimately, EVERYONE (Players, Coaches, NFL execs, fans) wants these players on the field.  It would seem players/coaches have a general culture of not being overly concerned about head injuries.

 

I don't think Miami maliciously tried to circumvent the concussion protocol. I do think the they found a loophole in the process which allowed Tua to return to what was a massive game for the Dolphins.  And I think the HC isolated himself away from the decision making process by simply "trusting" the doctor.

[The Wiz]

3 minutes ago, BrooklynBills said:

With the Tua situation, if the team doctor had determined that the back injury caused the wobbliness and Tua passed the baseline test, then the protocol allows him to go in the game AND not have to be in concussion protocol(because he passed the test).  **This is where it gets very tricky because the we don't know the team doctor's motives.**  The HC can completely isolate himself from the situation because he just plays who the doctors say can play.

He can isolate himself all he wants from the situation but I have a hard time believing that even if medically cleared most coaches would put a player back in after seeing them barely able to stand or walk without help.  That is just negligence on his part if that's the road he wanted to go by "isolating" himself.

[BrooklynBills]

3 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

He can isolate himself all he wants from the situation but I have a hard time believing that even if medically cleared most coaches would put a player back in after seeing them barely able to stand or walk without help.  That is just negligence on his part if that's the road he wanted to go by "isolating" himself.

 

I completely agree and think it's a major error from a rookie HC.  I don't think it was malicious but was clear negligence.  Don't take this to mean that I'm absolving McDaniel here.

[UKBillFan]

It's even made the mainstream media over here.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/sep/30/tua-tagovailoa-miami-dolphins-concussion-head-injury

 

If the link doesn't work, let me know and I can post the article.

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

Doyle was injured in game it appears and pretty sure he didn’t come back into the game after the injury. Your trying to tie the two events seems like a reach. Not to mention a knee injury compared to a brain injury is like comparing apples to oranges. 

 

On WGR they said that he was injured during the game and continue playing on it and finished the game.

[Scott7975]

21 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nfl-claims-concussion-protocols-didnt-fail-tua-tagovailoa-on-sunday-thats-hard-to-believe-after-thursdays-scary-head-injury-051800394.html
 

NFL claims concussion protocols didn’t fail Tua Tagovailoa on Sunday. That’s hard to believe after Thursday’s scary head injury

 

Yeah like the NFL is going to admit anything.  Same NFL that destroyed spygate tapes and covered up concussions for decades.

[Patrick Duffy]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yeah like the NFL is going to admit anything.  Same NFL that destroyed spygate tapes and covered up concussions for decades.

 

Yeah, I mean I could be wrong here.....but I can't recall a single instance seeing any player that got up stumbling after hitting his head on the ground getting cleared from protocol in that short amount of time even if it turned out to not be a concussion.

[ehfeuh57]

17 minutes ago, BrooklynBills said:

 

I completely agree and think it's a major error from a rookie HC.  I don't think it was malicious but was clear negligence...

 

I think it was malicious. Coach needed to win the game against the Bills. It was more important than Tua's future.

 

And then they had to play him the 1/2 week later to cement the "back injury" and not concussion protocol excuse.

Edited September 30, 2022 by DrDare

[Scott7975]

57 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

 

Lip service?

 

He lies to the interviewer and our face in this video by saying the independent and team physician have to both clear him and he said it multiple times to reinforce it.  From NFL's own website:

 

Quote

For the avoidance of doubt, the responsibility for the diagnosis of concussion and the decision to return a player to a game remain exclusively within the professional judgment of the Head Team Physician or the Club physician designated as responsible for the diagnosis and management of concussion.

 

http://NFL Concussion Diagnosis and Management Protocol https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol

 

https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/health-and-wellness/player-care/concussion-protocol-return-to-participation-protocol

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Scott7975

[BrooklynBills]

2 minutes ago, DrDare said:

 

I think it was malicious. Coach needed to win the game against the Bills. It was more important than Tua's future.

 

We can debate the semantics of malicious v. negligence.  But I do think he was just more than ok to just let bureaucracy and protocol override common sense and reason.  Which means he took all humanity out of his decision making.  I don't think that reflects well on him as a HC.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Should there be automatic ejections and suspensions for penalized hits that force players into concussion protocol?

 

 

[clayboy54]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Should there be automatic ejections and suspensions for penalized hits that force players into concussion protocol?

 

 

God forbid we should adopt a Targeting rule in the NFL.

[ehfeuh57]

On 9/25/2022 at 6:08 PM, Rc2catch said:

The dolphins can’t even clear him. 
Its the independent doctor on the hook here right??? Or did he never actually enter the concussion protocol?? 

 

On 9/28/2022 at 7:25 AM, DrDare said:

 

Did you know that the Dolphins have their own doctors too and they do stuff and are allowed to use their brains.

 

On 9/28/2022 at 9:22 AM, Rc2catch said:

Get outta town, really?? 
What about the independent neurologists at games whose only job is to watch for players possibly concussed? Team doctors can’t overrule the independent neurologist when it comes to the concussion protocol. So once again how would Miami be on the hook for Tua not entering the concussion protocol or being cleared if he did enter? 

 

8 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

He lies to the interviewer and our face in this video by saying the independent and team physician have to both clear him and he said it multiple times to reinforce it.  From NFL's own website:

 

  Quote

For the avoidance of doubt, the responsibility for the diagnosis of concussion and the decision to return a player to a game remain exclusively within the professional judgment of the Head Team Physician or the Club physician designated as responsible for the diagnosis and management of concussion.

 

http://NFL Concussion Diagnosis and Management Protocol https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/resources/fact-sheets/nfl-head-neck-and-spine-committee-s-concussion-diagnosis-and-management-protocol

 

https://www.nfl.com/playerhealthandsafety/health-and-wellness/player-care/concussion-protocol-return-to-participation-protocol

 

 

I got yelled at multiple pages back for saying the team doctors were absolutely involved and never got a thumbsup

 

turns out I'm even more right than even I thought

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, clayboy54 said:

God forbid we should adopt a Targeting rule in the NFL.

Not targeting. Only if you’re penalized on a hit that causes a concussion.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Should there be automatic ejections and suspensions for penalized hits that force players into concussion protocol?

 

 

yes IMO.  Any cheap shot with intent to maim should have punishment of many games without pay

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Should there be automatic ejections and suspensions for penalized hits that force players into concussion protocol?

 

 

 

Hmmm good question.  I think thats a grey area because I think the penalties arent even called right half the time.  There are a lot of head shots never called for instance. Some of them are even fined after not being called on the field.  Others seem to me a weak call.  For instance I thought the Milano call was weak.  Im sure its a penalty by definition but I see that also go uncalled all the time.  I believe that shove caused a concussion and I was ok with the flag but it seems pretty weak to throw someone out of a game and or suspend them for.

 

Also, looking at the play that actually put Tua on a stretcher and in concussion protocol, there wasnt anything dirty about it.  Not a penalty.  Yet it caused a concussion. Does that guy now get a suspension for it?  I dunno.  A little grey.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Scott7975

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

yes IMO.  Any cheap shot with intent to maim should have punishment of many games without pay

Even if intent isn’t isn’t there. Like take this hit  on Tee Higgins. Penalty was thrown, but should be automatic ejection and 1 game suspension.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Hmmm good question.  I think thats a grey area because I think the penalties arent even called right half the time.  There are a lot of head shots never called for instance. Some of them are even fined after not being called on the field.  Others seem to me a weak call.  For instance I thought the Milano call was weak.  Im sure its a penalty by definition but I see that also go uncalled all the time.  I believe that shove caused a concussion and I was ok with the flag but it seems pretty weak to throw someone out of a game and or suspend them for.

 

Also, looking at the play that actually put Tua on a stretcher and in concussion protocol, there wasnt anything dirty about it.  Not a penalty.  Yet it caused a concussion. Does that guy now get a suspension for it?  I dunno.  A little grey.

Milano’s hit was unnecessary. But obviously players would be able to appeal a suspension.

 

The Tua hit I don’t think should’ve been a penalty, and it wasn’t. Some head injuries aren’t the result of a penalty. If a hit that causes a concussion isn’t a penalty it can also be reviewed and the player suspended.

 

 

 

[Rc2catch]

12 minutes ago, DrDare said:

 

 

 

 

I got yelled at multiple pages back for saying the team doctors were absolutely involved and never got a thumbsup

 

turns out I'm even more right than even I thought

[Pete]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Even if intent isn’t isn’t there. Like take this hit  on Tee Higgins. Penalty was thrown, but should be automatic ejection and 1 game suspension.

 

 

So dirty!  Wicked cheap shot.  That type of play- suspend 8 games without pay imo

[ChrisWatson#21]

It was more important for the Dolphins to win a week 3 game vs the Bills than Tua’s health.  If they would have done the right thing and removed him from the game by default there was a good chance he misses the Bengals game.  Plays stupid games win stupid prizes.

[Ayjent]

7 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

That may or may not be true - what we know is the NFL has put in place a consistent and verifiable protocol to follow and took it out of the hands of team doctors that may have some stake in the game and brought in - independent teams to review and determine the outcomes.

 

If the players - find loop holes that allow them to clear the protocol faster - that is not on the NFL for failing the players - that is on the players and the NLFPA.
 

The NFL wants consistency and to show they are following the designed and agreed to protocols - that is their goal.  The issue is a concussion is a very individual injury and the best/quick way to identify it is the cognitive tests.  If as has been stated - Tua passed those cognitive tests - what grounds are there set up for someone to say - “No, you can’t play” - you may have had a concussion, but all testing shows you are fine.

 

I would have been fine if the “wobbly legs” he displayed was enough to automatically put them in the full protocol, but that is not the agreed to rule and unless either Tua or the independent doctor comes forward and says something was not done according to protocol or Tua says I didn’t feel comfortable- the NFLPA has nothing to stand on.

 

So far all we have heard is that Tua was evaluated (no timing on how quickly after the initial hit) and that he passed the cognitive tests that cleared him from the protocol and at that time the team decided it was less a head injury and more of a back issue (probably BS, but we are not there and the only thing he needed to do to return was pass his cognitive test).

 

The worst part - is a good coach and training staff - never lets him back out against Buffalo - just to protect the player from himself and then re-evaluates throughout the week and most likely gives him another week to recover, but the Dolphins and Tua did themselves a disservice because he wanted to play and they want to win.

All that we know is that they say they have a protocol, but whether or not the protocol is followed as intended or easily maneuvered around by teams and/or players is a whole different story.  And lets say everything was as intended and it's a legitimate protocol, which I don't believe, but let's make believe and buy that for a second.  Common sense has to be employed here bc it doesn't take a medical degree to see a person hit their head in the way Tua did on Sunday followed by a reaction to know that' it was a bad injury, and likely a brain injury.  We all know that is nothing to gamble with due to the potential severity in light of all of the recent studies.  Whatever those protocol tests were, assuming everything was done legitimately, didn't take the obvious chain of events that lead to the tests enough weight.  It's like seeing someone break their leg and having a doctor check the top and bottom of the bone for fractures while ignoring that middle where the players leg was moving in unnatural ways.  Everyone can see it is broken but the doctor says  "You passed the broken leg protocol".

 

The league wants to report less concussions like they are making positive strides, and you can see how that might lead to a situation where the league persuades "independent" doctors (paid by the NFL) to use a more conservative approach in declaring concussions.  The teams and players aren't always going to make the best choices if the discretion is left to them to utilize good judgment (the NFL of the past).  Now its even harder when a medical professional green lights it and the team and player have to use the same discretion in light of that questionable call.  

 

It's stupid by all involved because it looks like what it is - a sports league that isn't really doing enough to prevent brain injuries despite trying to say it is. 

 

[Solomon Grundy]

33 minutes ago, Pete said:

yes IMO.  Any cheap shot with intent to maim should have punishment of many games without pay

Milano's push wasn't malicious IMO. He shouldn't have been ejected. 

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Milano's push wasn't malicious IMO. He shouldn't have been ejected. 

I agree.  But the shot on Tee Higgins was a cheap shot.

Milano hits like a truck, plays hard, plays fair.  I just bought a white Milano jersey- he’s a dawg!

[The Wiz]

45 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Even if intent isn’t isn’t there. Like take this hit  on Tee Higgins. Penalty was thrown, but should be automatic ejection and 1 game suspension.

 

 

If that's the case should Edmunds be suspended for damn near ripping Jackson's head off?

 

He looked like he was going shoulder first on that hit so he wasn't trying to get a headshot on him. 

 

Chase was falling down and he lined up his hit wrong.   

 

These plays happen a lot and are part of the game when these guys are going to speed.   

 

Think of the concussion allen had back in 2019 against the pats.   No flag and no fine on the hit.  Was just a matter of a split second decision that ended up poorly. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by The Wiz

[atlbillsfan1975]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

On WGR they said that he was injured during the game and continue playing on it and finished the game.

Did they report if he notified staff of the injury during the game? Or showed signs of the injury? 

[Southern_Bills]

12 hours ago, UKBillFan said:

Whilst I appreciate the point what was known about Doyle’s fitness when we put him on the field late on? At what point did he pick up the torn ACL?

 

IMO a torn ACL happens in a single event, hard to prevent that.

 

When a player has a concussion and you cover it up to put him back on the field 4 days later, that's irresponsible. 

 

Who knows if it will ever be proven, but anyone with a brain knows that is what happened. 

[UKBillFan]

8 minutes ago, Southern_Bills said:

 

IMO a torn ACL happens in a single event, hard to prevent that.

 

When a player has a concussion and you cover it up to put him back on the field 4 days later, that's irresponsible. 

 

Who knows if it will ever be proven, but anyone with a brain knows that is what happened. 

 

It's not preventing the injury, it's what happened afterwards. Big Turk stated that , on WGR, they said he was injured in the game but carried on playing. As atlbillsfan1975 asked, I'm not sure if the Bills were aware or Doyle complained of injury until after the game.