2022 MVP: Mahomes wins. Allen gets 1 vote? (42 TDs, 19 TOs, 315 YPG & 63.3%% Comp %--EOY talk 54+)

[Billz4ever]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I sincerely cannot think of a single time Allen has made that many mistakes against a good team and the Bills still won. The closest I can think of is the Packers from earlier this year and they weren't even a playoff team. The story on the Bills is that Allen has to play perfect for the team to have a chance against other playoff teams, and sometimes even that isn't enough (see: the divisional round this year). Do you think the Bills would have beaten the Jaguars in the divisional round if Allen was hopping on one foot for the entire 2nd half and got relieved by Case Keenum for a couple drives? I don't. You're correct that this is all hypothetical, but there are enough data points over the past three seasons to know that the Bills don't beat good teams if Allen doesn't play at an elite level for 4 quarters. I mean he had arguably the greatest game in playoff history and the gap between the two teams was otherwise so great that the Bills still lost.

We'll let's put this to rest right here so we can move on.

 

The wildcard game the week prior the divisional loss.  Allen threw 2 picks, lost a fumble returned for a TD, took 7 sacks, and had a much lower completion %.

 

You're literally comparing that to a game where Mahomes had a way better completion percentage, threw no picks and lost 1 fumble.  

Edited February 10, 2023 by Billz4ever

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I sincerely cannot think of a single time Allen has made that many mistakes against a good team and the Bills still won. The closest I can think of is the Packers from earlier this year and they weren't even a playoff team. The story on the Bills is that Allen has to play perfect for the team to have a chance against other playoff teams, and sometimes even that isn't enough (see: the divisional round last year). Do you think the Bills would have beaten the Jaguars in the divisional round if Allen was hopping on one foot for the entire 2nd half and got relieved by Case Keenum for a couple drives? I don't. You're correct that this is all hypothetical, but there are enough data points over the past three seasons to know that the Bills don't beat good teams if Allen doesn't play at an elite level for 4 quarters. I mean he had arguably the greatest game in playoff history and the gap between the two teams was otherwise so great that the Bills still lost.

 

 

I agree. What if Joe Thuney was our LG instead of Rodger Saffold and Allen was able to make that pass without getting hit at the same time? Maybe Diggs scores a long TD which would have changed the game.

 

 

 

The playoff game vs the Ravens. Allen had a not great game (which was excusable with the extreme wind) and the DEF balled the ***** out. Guess you could debate if the Ravens are a "good"  playoff team. 

 

That's the only game I can think of though. 

[DapperCam]

55 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Mahomes found a way to lose against the Bengals in the playoffs last year. Quite literally he was the primary reason they lost. This year his defense was the primary reason they won. This post is a joke and you know it.

My memory may be faulty, but I distinctly remember Mahomes giving Joe Burrow the ball with time for a game winning time expiring drive. KC defense stood up. Then Mahomes was gifted a personal foul penalty for a game winning field goal on the next drive (it was a penalty but not because of some great play by Mahomes unless you count the flop). It wasn’t some convincing win where he was slinging it all over the place.

[Dopey]

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

But everything I said there is true. Of course Mahomes is an elite QB. He made a number of great plays in that game, like he always does. The numerous mistakes however would have sunk him if he was the Bills QB that day because our defense would not have held the Bengals for that long, our #2 WR would not have made several great catches and plays to keep drives going. Allen played like crap against the Jets but made a great play at the end that should have gotten us right back in it... and instead it bounced off Davis's chest. I've seen this story too many times in Allen's career so the common narratives are really starting to frustrate me. So many times I've seen Allen put the team on his back against other good teams, and not once have I seen the team do the same for him. Sure against the Bears and Falcons of the world he can play below his standard and the Bills still win. But if he made that many mistakes against the Bengals we lose every single time.

I call bull💩 on this. Allen was hurt in the loss to the Jets. The very next game, Josh played and literally gave the game to the Vikings. You can't argue this(well...). We went on an 8 game winning streak after that. Allen was definitely not playing his best in this stretch. The excuses were "his elbow". Fair enough, but he had some games where the team put Allen oh their back. We didn't go on that winning streak on the back of Allen. Not even close. 

[HappyDays]

3 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

We'll let's put this to rest right here so we can move on.

 

The wildcard game the week prior the divisional loss.  Allen threw 2 picks, lost a fumble returned for a TD, took 7 sacks, and had a much lower completion %.

 

You're literally comparing that to a game where Mahomes had a way better completion percentage, threw no picks and lost 1 fumble.  

 

I don't consider the Dolphins with Skylar Thompson at QB to be a good team but your point is taken, that is a reasonable example where the defense stepped up to keep us in the game while Allen and the offense floundered for several drives.

 

Just to tie up this discussion, my point is not to compare Allen and Mahomes as QBs. I recognize that Mahomes' overall body of work is better than Allen's. I just hate when people say things like "great players find a way to win" as some evidence that Mahomes is SO much better than Allen. I think the gap between their support systems is much greater than the gap between the QBs. Mahomes literally "made enough plays" to win the AFCCG but he had a lot of help from his team and his coaches.

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

My memory may be faulty, but I distinctly remember Mahomes giving Joe Burrow the ball with time for a game winning time expiring drive. KC defense stood up. Then Mahomes was gifted a personal foul penalty for a game winning field goal on the next drive (it was a penalty but not because of some great play by Mahomes unless you count the flop). It wasn’t some convincing win where he was slinging it all over the place.

The personal foul came on a 5-yard run on a 3rd and 4 at the Cincy 47.  To make it sound like the only reason they won is because of that is just not factual.  Chiefs would've had a 1st down at the Cincy 42 with time left anyway.

 

And explain how you get over 300 yards and 67% completion without making good throws?

[Brand J]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't consider the Dolphins with Skylar Thompson at QB to be a good team but your point is taken, that is a reasonable example where the defense stepped up to keep us in the game while Allen and the offense floundered for several drives.

 

Just to tie up this discussion, my point is not to compare Allen and Mahomes as QBs. I recognize that Mahomes' overall body of work is better than Allen's. I just hate when people say things like "great players find a way to win" as some evidence that Mahomes is SO much better than Allen. I think the gap between their support systems is much greater than the gap between the QBs. Mahomes literally "made enough plays" to win the AFCCG but he had a lot of help from his team and his coaches.

This was by far your best post. You either came around or simmered down, but either way it was the most rational. Earlier you said Mahomes “absolutely did not” make the plays he needed to make for the Chiefs to win, but here you acknowledge he “made enough plays to win the AFCCG,” which never should’ve been questioned or in doubt.
 

Great players do find a way to win, even if you hate the saying. They won’t always win, but more often than not they find a way - hence Mahomes’ success. Let’s get Allen the help he needs on the OL and a legit second receiving option (I don’t consider this to be Knox), to see how much he can elevate his game. He still needs to get better pre and post snap, even the most ardent Allen supporter can’t argue against this. Lastly I’ll say, even though I am a realist, I’m also a Mahomes and Chiefs hater, so…

 

Fly Eagles, Fly! 🦅 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

14 hours ago, Awwufelloff said:

Still can’t believe we traded that pick away when we needed a QB

 

 

He wouldn’t have been that guy here.

[Jay_Fixit]

18 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

He wouldn’t have been that guy here.

There is nothing to suggest he wouldn’t have been or be. That’s literally just a guess.

[Brand J]

8 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

There is nothing to suggest he wouldn’t have been or be. That’s literally just a guess.

It’s what people say to lessen the sting. I’m sure there are a bunch of Portland Trailblazer fans who say “Michael Jordan wouldn’t have been ‘Michael Jordan’ if he was drafted by us and not the Bulls.”

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

The playoff game vs the Ravens. Allen had a not great game (which was excusable with the extreme wind) and the DEF balled the ***** out. Guess you could debate if the Ravens are a "good"  playoff team. 

 

That's the only game I can think of though. 

You might remember that the weather that night was very bad and limited both offenses.  In spite of that Allen threw for over 200 yards and a TD.  Importantly Allen did not have a TO and clearly outplayed Lamar Jackson.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

It’s what people say to lessen the sting. I’m sure there are a bunch of Portland Trailblazer fans who say “Michael Jordan wouldn’t have been ‘Michael Jordan’ if he was drafted by us and not the Bulls.”

What sting?  That we passed on Mahomes and ended up with Allen? 

 

First off that was 6 years ago.

 

Second, had we passed on Mahomes to draft Rosen or Darnold instead of Allen then I might agree that the sting is still there.  But the very next year we drafted an elite QB who is a generational talent in his own right.  At that point all that mattered was what did KC & Buffalo do to develop their guy and surround him with the best offensive talent and coaching possible.  Looking at it from that perspective it's clear that the Chiefs have done a lot more for Mahomes then the Bills did for Allen. 

 

 

[Billz4ever]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

It’s what people say to lessen the sting. I’m sure there are a bunch of Portland Trailblazer fans who say “Michael Jordan wouldn’t have been ‘Michael Jordan’ if he was drafted by us and not the Bulls.”

 

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

What sting?  That we passed on Mahomes and ended up with Allen? 

 

First off that was 6 years ago.

 

Second, had we passed on Mahomes to draft Rosen or Darnold instead of Allen then I might agree that the sting is still there.  But the very next year we drafted an elite QB who is a generational talent in his own right.  At that point all that mattered was what did KC & Buffalo do to develop their guy and surround him with the best offensive talent and coaching possible.  Looking at it from that perspective it's clear that the Chiefs have done a lot more for Mahomes then the Bills did for Allen. 

 

 

 

Which should be the priority of any organization I would think and hope.  If you aren't arming and protecting the face of your franchise, I question your priorities and your ability to ever bring home a Championship.

 

Guess they thought Diggs would be all we needed and we could do everything else offensively on the cheap, while pouring a ton of resources into the defense with not a lot to show for it given what was spent.

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Dopey said:

I call bull💩 on this. Allen was hurt in the loss to the Jets. The very next game, Josh played and literally gave the game to the Vikings. You can't argue this(well...). We went on an 8 game winning streak after that. Allen was definitely not playing his best in this stretch. The excuses were "his elbow". Fair enough, but he had some games where the team put Allen oh their back. We didn't go on that winning streak on the back of Allen. Not even close. 

I don't agree.  A better description of the Vikings game was that Allen made key mistakes at the end when the Bills could have won a game.  But that game was lost because of the D.  The fact is that Allen played very well in leading the Bills to a 27 - 10 lead late in the 3rd quarter.  And in spite of playing at home where a top ranked D is supposed to thrive the D promptly let the Vikes back in the game allowing Cook to go 82 yards off tackle to cut the lead to 27 - 17. 

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Billz4ever said:

 

 

Which should be the priority of any organization I would think and hope.  If you aren't arming and protecting the face of your franchise, I question your priorities and your ability to ever bring home a Championship.

 

Guess they thought Diggs would be all we needed and we could do everything else offensively on the cheap, while pouring a ton of resources into the defense with not a lot to show for it given what was spent.

It's the difference between a defensive minded head coach and an offensive minded head coach.

 

I like McD and he deserves a lot of credit for lifting the Bills out of football hell and making them relevant again.  But this off season is a big test for him.  Either he pivots on a dime and works to strengthen the O or he doubles down on the D.  If he doubles down and focuses on the D then at minimum the Bills better make it to the AFC championship game next season or McD should be fired.

 

If McD focuses on the offense we have to recognize that it might take a couple of years to fix the problem. In this scenario McD would have those couple of years to get it done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Awwufelloff]

3 hours ago, Dopey said:

I call bull💩 on this. Allen was hurt in the loss to the Jets. The very next game, Josh played and literally gave the game to the Vikings. You can't argue this(well...). We went on an 8 game winning streak after that. Allen was definitely not playing his best in this stretch. The excuses were "his elbow". Fair enough, but he had some games where the team put Allen oh their back. We didn't go on that winning streak on the back of Allen. Not even close. 

I’m a season ticket holder and feel like I was watching different games then some posters on here. 

[Billz4ever]

2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

It's the difference between a defensive minded head coach and an offensive minded head coach.

 

I like McD and he deserves a lot of credit for lifting the Bills out of football hell and making them relevant again.  But this off season is a big test for him.  Either he pivots on a dime and works to strengthen the O or he doubles down on the D.  If he doubles down and focuses on the D then at minimum the Bills better make it to the AFC championship game next season or McD should be fired.

 

If McD focuses on the offense we have to recognize that it might take a couple of years to fix the problem. In this scenario McD would have those couple of years to get it done.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed.  The NFL has shifted and coaches (particularly defensive coaches) either learn to adapt, or they get left in the dust.  The adage "defense wins championships" isn't as true as it used to be.  With the high-powered offenses and the rules always being adjusted in favor of the offense and scoring more points, there has to be a point where a coach decides that the defense doesn't have to be perfect.  It just has to be good enough and you can't continue dumping your best resources into one side of the ball, when the side you need to score points is being carried by one guy, and against good teams, needs help to win.

[Brand J]

37 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

What sting?  That we passed on Mahomes and ended up with Allen? 

 

First off that was 6 years ago.

 

Second, had we passed on Mahomes to draft Rosen or Darnold instead of Allen then I might agree that the sting is still there.  But the very next year we drafted an elite QB who is a generational talent in his own right.  At that point all that mattered was what did KC & Buffalo do to develop their guy and surround him with the best offensive talent and coaching possible.  Looking at it from that perspective it's clear that the Chiefs have done a lot more for Mahomes then the Bills did for Allen. 

 

 

I’d say it’s more so the sting of all those accolades that Mahomes has rather than passing on him and ending up with Allen. People like to say “that wouldn’t have happened here” as if to convince themselves the player would be lesser.
 

We do agree that McBeane has failed to surround their superstar QB with the best resources possible. They obviously didn’t think a defensive minded HC’s unit could fail time and time again if most of the premium resources were put into that side of the ball. And we now know their perspective was wrong. I bet that you’ll see McBeane address the offense with those premium resources much more than the defense this offseason…

[The Red King]

Allen had some rough games.  Inconsitancy will kill his MVP chances this season, not overall stats.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Billz4ever said:

Agreed.  The NFL has shifted and coaches (particularly defensive coaches) either learn to adapt, or they get left in the dust.  The adage "defense wins championships" isn't as true as it used to be.  With the high-powered offenses and the rules always being adjusted in favor of the offense and scoring more points, there has to be a point where a coach decides that the defense doesn't have to be perfect.  It just has to be good enough and you can't continue dumping your best resources into one side of the ball, when the side you need to score points is being carried by one guy, and against good teams, needs help to win.

If I identify my best player to be my qb, I'm sure as he'll not going to selfishly surround him with flawed defensive players. These next 2 off seasons better be flooded with offense. We've already wasted his first 5. Let's not waste his next 5.

[machine gun kelly]

I love Josh, but Mahoney was better.  Allen and Mahoney both made mistakes in 21, but somehow Mahomes mistakes in those early lost games was overlooked.

 

Allen needs consistent play and getting at least to the SB to get serious consideration.

 

Besides, MVP is not his be all endgame, it’s a ring.  He can do it if Beane finds him the talent, and he makes the most of it.

 

I added in another thread, one pick up worth restructuring a couple of contracts to signing bonuses to get Gesecki.  His market value is $8.3 mil. Per and he’ll probably take a little less to be on a SB contender.  We finally picked up Hines and Cook on the pass catching RB’s and can potentially let Motor walk.  I like motor, but it’s dollars and cents.  So there’s your 21 personnel.  We already have some of the 11 and 10 personnel for the last few years.  We wanted with Howard to get an effective 12 personnel.  Knox and Gesecki would be a nice tandem for 15-17% of the time.  Big pass catching talent especially in the red zone.

 

It’s been talked to death needing a 1st RD WR or at least in the 2nd.  Our first four picks in the draft not in this order needs to be a WR, two Guards, and a Safety.

 

That’s what this team of hits will end up with success.

 

I’ll add Gabe is a solid #3, and Shakir will develop over time.  We need a true #2 who has breakaway acceleration.  Gabe is fine in speed down the road, but not out of the gate at the LOS.

 

We then would have 10, 11, 21, and 12 personnel groupings which is what McBeane has wanted all along.  Stud Guards would also help not only in pass pro, but in the run game.  The interior line always helps the most in the run game while the Tackles are so important in pass pro.

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by machine gun kelly

[Matt_In_NH]

Get the turnovers down and he will be MVP

[transplantbillsfan]

22 hours ago, The Wiz said:

I'll start and end with this, he would have been in the same shoes that Allen is in right now.  Trying to do everything on his own with a mediocre offense.  Outside of Diggs, the Bills have very little. 

 

Imagine Mahomes with Zay Jones, K. Benjamin and a player that probably is bagging groceries somewhere.

 

And that's the incredibly frustrating aspect of all of this.

 

Although right now I think the problem is more the OL with Josh running for his life or getting elbow injuries from blind side strip sacks.

 

Notice how Kansas City actually chose to part ways with its most dynamic weapon in the offseason in favor of building the OL.

[Billl]

11 hours ago, pkwwjd said:

Let's just call this award "best statistical QB award"because that is what it has become. MVP talk should have ended when Chad Henne marchrd 98 yards for a TD against Jacksonville when PM was hurt and out of the game. It is obvious to anyone watching that PM is not the MVP if his backup can accomplish what we expect PM to accomplish.

Yeah, Henne really lit it up with 7 attempts for 23 yards that game.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

9 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

There is nothing to suggest he wouldn’t have been or be. That’s literally just a guess.

He would’ve come here with a rookie defensive HC, Rick Dennison at OC, laughable offensive weapons, and very likely a day one starter.

 

I think it’s very, very, very plausible he doesn’t develop into the level of player he is today considering the offense didn’t start to explode until Dabs was in year 2 and we finally added some offensive weapons. That would be year 3 for Mahommes. 
 

Edited February 11, 2023 by TheyCallMeAndy

[transplantbillsfan]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have always thought Ben is the comparitor in that sense. Not that Allen isn't more talented than Ben, he is. But I think the Bills organisation now has much more in common with those Steelers operations than the Colts or the Patriots. And it takes more than a QB to win. The Bills will break through and win a ring or maybe two. I am still confident of that. But they are not a dynasty. 

 

Neither were the Colts

20 hours ago, Dr.Sack said:

Three criticisms of Allen:

 

#1 has hurt his right UCL in 2/5 seasons
#2 rarely takes the check-down leading to suboptimal completion %
#3 too many TOs

 

Ummm... you're criticizing Josh for the 2 UCL injuries???? Are you being funny here?

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

See the problem is I actually watched the game so I don't fall for this crap. In the 2nd half Mahomes made a number of mistakes and bad throws that invited the Bengals back into the game. If his defense hadn't stepped up it would have been two years in a row with the same ending. If Allen led his offense to 23 points against the Bengals we would have lost by at least 2 scores. It's weird how quick certain people on here are to point out Allen's mistakes, but Mahomes' mistakes dont matter because he "willed his team to win." I guess he willed Chad Henne to a 98 yard TD drive the week before too.

 

Thank you.

 

I honestly forgot about that Chad Henne drive. That right--much like Reid's success with Alex Smith at QB before Mahomes--is why I get so frustrated at Allen’s coaching situation, which has just been very good, not great.

[LABILLBACKER]

31 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

And that's the incredibly frustrating aspect of all of this.

 

Although right now I think the problem is more the OL with Josh running for his life or getting elbow injuries from blind side strip sacks.

 

Notice how Kansas City actually chose to part ways with its most dynamic weapon in the offseason in favor of building the OL.

If only the Bills were so bold.

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

And Josh has Diggs.  

 

Mahomes had fewer weapons than he did last season.  The Bills were the team favored to win the SB, not the Chiefs, so trying to pretend the Bills were a garbage team carried by Allen isn't going to fly.

 

And he did have better numbers than Allen.  6 more TDs, 2 fewer INTs, a thousand more yards, 4 points better in completion %, and 10 points in QB rating.

 

Ummm... did Mahomes really have fewer weapons than last season?

 

I don't think last season the Chiefs had JuJu, MVS, Kadarius Toney, Isaiah Pacheco, or Skyy Moore.

 

I get that Hill was an Elite HOF weapon, but KC found a way to add a handful of more than competent players to replace him.

 

Ever consider the benefit of 3 or 4 more good players over a single Elite player?

 

And on a side note, maybe it should be an indictment on Mahomes that he could only win 1 Super Bowl as clearly the best QB in the NFL with a 1st ballot HOFer at both TE and WR1. 

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Ummm... did Mahomes really have fewer weapons than last season?

 

I don't think last season the Chiefs had JuJu, MVS, Kadarius Toney, Isaiah Pacheco, or Skyy Moore.

 

I get that Hill was an Elite HOF weapon, but KC found a way to add a handful of more than competent players to replace him.

 

Ever consider the benefit of 3 or 4 more good players over a single Elite player?

 

And on a side note, maybe it should be an indictment on Mahomes that he could only win 1 Super Bowl as clearly the best QB in the NFL with a 1st ballot HOFer at both TE and WR1. 

OK, minus getting into how the Chiefs draft better, what does that have to do with the Bills, who were dominated on both sides of the ball by Cincy, a team the Chiefs beat and are now playing for a title? Mahomes is the MVP and is playing in his 3rd SB, no matter how much you hate him or his team.  Why can't Bills fans take off the homer blinders once and awhile?

Edited February 11, 2023 by Billz4ever

[Meatloaf63]

11 hours ago, Billz4ever said:

You're entire argument is based on hypotheticals that you have no way of knowing the outcome.

 

If there's an "if" in your argument, it's not a real argument.  It's a prediction based of a hypothetical situation, so it's literally impossible to claim it's true.

You should change your name to Homer63.

 

You've clearly proven you can't leave homer bias out of your thinking.

Yep, their argument is just like the Brady argument. He's just a product of the system.  Any mistakes are his fault and any of Josh's mistakes are because of the people around him and not really his.

You’ve proven you look at stats only which is the most foolish way to judge athletes. When you can’t understand that playing an inferior schedule produces unequal results then you your opinion means absolutely nothing. What happened this year when they went head to head when the Bills were relatively healthy? How many games did Mahomes play with a sprained UCL. How many games did Mahomes play without a 30 million dollar piece of his defense? Who was Mahomes coordinator vs Allen’s? You conveniently ignore all of that. Mahomes is a hell of a Qb, but so is Allen, but they certainly don’t play in the same environment, and anyone who doesn’t understand that is clueless.

[Billl]

37 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Thank you.

 

I honestly forgot about that Chad Henne drive. That right--much like Reid's success with Alex Smith at QB before Mahomes--is why I get so frustrated at Allen’s coaching situation, which has just been very good, not great.

Allen’s OC until this season was the guy who just won COTY his first season as a head coach.  That’s about as good of a coaching situation as you can possibly have.

[transplantbillsfan]

11 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

It’s obvious you don’t get it and/or the frustration is clouding your judgement, so there’s nothing more for me to say. 

 

Translation:

29 minutes ago, Billz4ever said:

OK, minus getting into how the Chiefs draft better, what does that have to do with the Bills, who were dominated on both sides of the ball by Cincy, a team the Chiefs beat and are now playing for a title? Mahomes is the MVP and is playing in his 3rd SB, no matter how much you hate him or his team.  Why can't Bills fans take off the homer blinders once and awhile?

 

Huh???? Are we having the same conversation??? The guy I responded to said Mahomes had fewer weapons this year. I responded...

[transplantbillsfan]

10 minutes ago, Billl said:

Allen’s OC until this season was the guy who just won COTY his first season as a head coach.  That’s about as good of a coaching situation as you can possibly have.

 

It is? 

 

How 'bout 13 seconds?

[Billl]

24 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

It is? 

 

How 'bout 13 seconds?

Yes, it is.  That was an incredibly coached game by McDermott and his staff even though the end was a disaster.  Nobody wants to look at the game in its totality because if they did, they’d have to acknowledge that Kansas City dominated that game.  Buffalo nearly stole a game they had no business winning because of their aggressive coaching that kept coming up aces.  The Bills went for it on 4th down 4 times.  They were 4/4 with 3 TDs.  Because of how it ended, everyone seems to think of that game as one that the Bills should have won.  That’s true in a way, but it’s also true that they were either tied or trailing for 59 minutes.

 

The better team won that game.  If Butker misses that FG at the end of regulation (and he’d already missed an XP), that would be looked at as nearly a perfect game from a coaching standpoint.  People only remember the outcome, though.  Such is sports.

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

Allen’s OC until this season was the guy who just won COTY his first season as a head coach.  That’s about as good of a coaching situation as you can possibly have.

 

I'll go ahead and disagree here. Daboll is absolutely a great coach. He has become a great leader of coaches and players alike with his interpersonal authenticity and professional diligence. Dudes love Dabs. That's important, especially early on. 

 

However, Daboll has ONLY had ANY offensive success calling plays with Josh Allen as his QB. He didn't call plays this season with the New Jersey Football Giants. So I see Daboll as someone who is meant for the Head Coaching job. He's a hell of a teacher, a uniter, an organizer, but he had some serious trouble marrying the run and the pass games while in Buffalo, despite the offensive success we enjoyed. So defensive players had some advantages, leaning into the pass rush, feasting on some meh players in predictable pass and run situations. 

 

What Daboll DID do VERY effectively was get stompin' mad at Allen when he refused to take what the defense was giving him. THAT was the missing ingredient this year, even as the offense starting stringing together a run game. Allen was being an impatient, sophomoric, myopic stallion too often in 2022. His greatest successes had come from ELITE patience, precision, and zen, and then of course that KC playoff explosion that effed up all our expectations...

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

Neither were the Colts

 

Quite. But their model was star driven. It was 5 or 6 star players and a lot of jags.

[Richard Noggin]

12 minutes ago, Billl said:

Yes, it is.  That was an incredibly coached game by McDermott and his staff even though the end was a disaster.  Nobody wants to look at the game in its totality because if they did, they’d have to acknowledge that Kansas City dominated that game.  Buffalo nearly stole a game they had no business winning because of their aggressive coaching that kept coming up aces.  The Bills went for it on 4th down 4 times.  They were 4/4 with 3 TDs.  Because of how it ended, everyone seems to think of that game as one that the Bills should have won.  That’s true in a way, but it’s also true that they were either tied or trailing for 59 minutes.

 

The better team won that game.  If Butker misses that FG at the end of regulation (and he’d already missed an XP), that would be looked at as nearly a perfect game from a coaching standpoint.  People only remember the outcome, though.  Such is sports.

 

This is so true. By necessity, because they were losing, the Bills let it ALL hang out. And it worked, sort of. It certainly exploited some of what Spags does, and challenged Reid to counter (either with ball control/clock maintenance OR with the spread-out, on-field options that let Kelce identify and exploit an inexplicable coverage blind spot). And one could argue that not a lot of split-out TEs would have been able to dictate that rapid solution. So it could have been more talent than coaching, on the offensive side, when all is said and done. But whatever. The Bills wilted. They called timeouts and STILL didn't field PROGRESSIVE-minded, forward-leaning solutions. They fell back onto the WORST cliches of last-ditch prevent defense. 

[LABILLBACKER]

21 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I'll go ahead and disagree here. Daboll is absolutely a great coach. He has become a great leader of coaches and players alike with his interpersonal authenticity and professional diligence. Dudes love Dabs. That's important, especially early on. 

 

However, Daboll has ONLY had ANY offensive success calling plays with Josh Allen as his QB. He didn't call plays this season with the New Jersey Football Giants. So I see Daboll as someone who is meant for the Head Coaching job. He's a hell of a teacher, a uniter, an organizer, but he had some serious trouble marrying the run and the pass games while in Buffalo, despite the offensive success we enjoyed. So defensive players had some advantages, leaning into the pass rush, feasting on some meh players in predictable pass and run situations. 

 

What Daboll DID do VERY effectively was get stompin' mad at Allen when he refused to take what the defense was giving him. THAT was the missing ingredient this year, even as the offense starting stringing together a run game. Allen was being an impatient, sophomoric, myopic stallion too often in 2022. His greatest successes had come from ELITE patience, precision, and zen, and then of course that KC playoff explosion that effed up all our expectations...

Brian was able to quickly identify Josh's early flaws and reel him back in.  You definitely have to give Dabs credit for molding Josh into the qb who practically pitched 2 perfect games in the playoffs.  Dorsey has been more of an intoxicating OC allowing more hero ball Josh to seep back in. I naively assumed Ken would practice more Daboll-isms but it never materialized.  I think in a year or 2 when the dust settles, we might see a Ben Johnson type taking over.

[transplantbillsfan]

58 minutes ago, Billl said:

Yes, it is.  That was an incredibly coached game by McDermott and his staff even though the end was a disaster.  Nobody wants to look at the game in its totality because if they did, they’d have to acknowledge that Kansas City dominated that game.  Buffalo nearly stole a game they had no business winning because of their aggressive coaching that kept coming up aces.  The Bills went for it on 4th down 4 times.  They were 4/4 with 3 TDs.  Because of how it ended, everyone seems to think of that game as one that the Bills should have won.  That’s true in a way, but it’s also true that they were either tied or trailing for 59 minutes.

 

The better team won that game.  If Butker misses that FG at the end of regulation (and he’d already missed an XP), that would be looked at as nearly a perfect game from a coaching standpoint.  People only remember the outcome, though.  Such is sports.

 

On the one hand, I applaud your post. On the other hand, I think it's sleight of hand.

 

Are 4 4th down conversions your argument for good coaching? Maybe drive 1 with the 4th and 2 on the 50 and the 4th and goal on the 1. But I think that's more analytics. Took players executing more than anything.

 

The other drive they went for it on 4th down twice and converted, they pretty much needed to. They were down late in the game. To me that's not great coaching as much as trusting your players.

 

And there were 2 TDs on 4th downs, not 3.

 

How about a coach who doesn't make absolutely certain that the kicker knows to kick it short?

 

Or a coach who makes sure the defense doesn't leave the best TE in NFL history a wide open seam in the middle of the field when the Chiefs still have a timeout?

 

Those 2 things were pretty clearly just poor coaching decisions.