Hodgins must stay

[FilthyBeast]

Beane has shown he loves keeping his draft picks no matter what so if Hodgins keeps up the solid camp/preseason it's going to be at the expense of touchdown jesus or even Crowder who could be somewhat of a surprise cut.

[hemma]

I could say something about Tampa’s Tyler Johnson (see above) not playing STs and yet still making the roster as the 5th/6th WR the last 2 years, but I’m a mature adult and I won’t do that.

 

[Logic]

8 minutes ago, hemma said:

I could say something about Tampa’s Tyler Johnson (see above) not playing STs and yet still making the roster as the 5th/6th WR the last 2 years, but I’m a mature adult and I won’t do that.

 

Nothing says "I'm a mature adult" quite like pointing out the action that you're choosing not to take in order to achieve said designation. 😜

[Cheektowaga Chad]

If hodgins has another 2 games like this past Saturday, I don't see how you don't keep him on the roster

 

Think a lot of people are over rating a guy like kumerow, believe he was a healthy scratch a few times last season 

[Don Otreply]

53 minutes ago, hemma said:

I could say something about Tampa’s Tyler Johnson (see above) not playing STs and yet still making the roster as the 5th/6th WR the last 2 years, but I’m a mature adult and I won’t do that.

 

It’s good to see there is an adult in the room, 👍

[Turk71]

Hodgins has great hands and rarely drops passes. His 1.1% drop rate was best in the nation. What he lacks in speed and athleticism he makes up for with size, body control, positioning, and great hands. His catch radius, ball tracking, and high pointing are also major strengths.

Senior year red zone targets (inside the 20) were 12 for 12 with 9 tds.

More than one site said his hands and body control were perhaps the best in his class. He won contested throws consistently in college. 

His pro comparables were Michael Thomas and Allison on one site. I think he fits in a niche that  he, Kumerow, and maybe Howard can fill; a big possession  target in the middle of the zone and in the red zone.

I think it could come down to keeping him or Kumerow. If it comes down to that I think I would keep Hodgins and trade Kumerow to GB. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Turk71

[nosejob]

On 8/14/2022 at 7:18 AM, John from Riverside said:

We drafted him

we’ve been patient with him

We need to keep him

I think he's gonna be another Gabe.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Beane has shown he loves keeping his draft picks no matter what so if Hodgins keeps up the solid camp/preseason it's going to be at the expense of touchdown jesus or even Crowder who could be somewhat of a surprise cut.

Hodgins doesn't play ST.  He doesn't beat out Kumerow in that regards.   Hodgins is fighting for that 5th WR spot with Crowder and Austin.  The Bills need to identify which among them brings the best value to the team.   Crowder and Austin have NFL experience,

[GunnerBill]

12 hours ago, hemma said:

I could say something about Tampa’s Tyler Johnson (see above) not playing STs and yet still making the roster as the 5th/6th WR the last 2 years, but I’m a mature adult and I won’t do that.

 

 

You could. But you would be wrong. He isn't one of their top special teamers but he played 19% of ST snaps last year. If you are a depth receiver you need to play teams in some way. 

 

And interestingly when you break this down that is because the games where he played over 60% of the offensive snaps they took him off special teams. Through the first 6 games of last season he was playing on pretty much all their kick coverage units (and averaging about 30% of ST snaps). As his offensive use increased his special teams use decreased. Which is exactly as you would expect it. 

 

There are no 5th or 6th choice receivers who just sit on the bench not playing special teams and waiting for a starter to get injured. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Pete]

9 hours ago, ganesh said:

Hodgins doesn't play ST.  He doesn't beat out Kumerow in that regards.   Hodgins is fighting for that 5th WR spot with Crowder and Austin.  The Bills need to identify which among them brings the best value to the team.   Crowder and Austin have NFL experience,

Austin and Crowder are slots, and we have slot WRs.  Hodgin can win jump balls.  Josh could throw ball up high for Hodgins, he will go get it.  Red zone threat.  A big WR scores TDs, catches everything, wins jump balls, never drops....thats a dimension the Bills are lacking

[Deadstroke]

11 hours ago, ganesh said:

Hodgins doesn't play ST.  He doesn't beat out Kumerow in that regards.   Hodgins is fighting for that 5th WR spot with Crowder and Austin.  The Bills need to identify which among them brings the best value to the team.   Crowder and Austin have NFL experience,

Hodgins played 8 ST snaps Saturday and credited with one assist.  Not too shabby.  Seems to me they just might be grooming him.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

14 hours ago, hemma said:

I could say something about Tampa’s Tyler Johnson (see above) not playing STs and yet still making the roster as the 5th/6th WR the last 2 years, but I’m a mature adult and I won’t do that.

 

 

I know antonio brown left the team and whatnot - but he did play 50% of snaps on offense last year.  And 89 on special teams.  

 

I'd say Johnson fits more into the shakir spot.  

[BADOLBILZ]

14 hours ago, hemma said:

I could say something about Tampa’s Tyler Johnson (see above) not playing STs and yet still making the roster as the 5th/6th WR the last 2 years, but I’m a mature adult and I won’t do that.

 

 

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.........but you can get a wealth of statistics on a player from the site below.   Snap counts are right on a players main statistical page you just need to scroll a few categories down.  

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnTy00.htm

[hemma]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion.........but you can get a wealth of statistics on a player from the site below.   Snap counts are right on a players main statistical page you just need to scroll a few categories down.  

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnTy00.htm

I’m mortified.  Disinformation at its worst.

I went there, either did not find the right page/insufficient scrolling and used a different site.

thanks.  

I just hope Thad Brown doesn’t pick up on this error.

 

[ColoradoBills]

3 hours ago, Deadstroke said:

Hodgins played 8 ST snaps Saturday and credited with one assist.  Not too shabby.  Seems to me they just might be grooming him.

 

How can this possibly be true?

From what I read here ST duties can only be performed by highly talented elite players who are born with that skill.

Like speed, these skills cannot be taught.

Asking a guy like Hodgins to run down the field and either block or tackle would be disastrous and borders on insanity.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

How can this possibly be true?

From what I read here ST duties can only be performed by highly talented elite players who are born with that skill.

Like speed, these skills cannot be taught.

Asking a guy like Hodgins to run down the field and either block or tackle would be disastrous and borders on insanity.

 

Sarcasm aside, the point is the Bills do have elite gunners. So why would you take away an elite element of your team in order to prioritise a 5th or 6th guy at a position where they are very unlikely to see the field? I'm sure they want to see Isaiah play some special teams because for them to even consider keeping him above a guy who has proven very able at it would be taking a voluntary downgrade to your team. 

[ColoradoBills]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sarcasm aside, the point is the Bills do have elite gunners. So why would you take away an elite element of your team in order to prioritise a 5th or 6th guy at a position where they are very unlikely to see the field? I'm sure they want to see Isaiah play some special teams because for them to even consider keeping him above a guy who has proven very able at it would be taking a voluntary downgrade to your team. 

 

It was pretty good sarcasm if I do say so myself.

Yes, I agree, and Jones and Neal are those guys.  Bernard also was an elite gunner in college.

ALL of last year's top core special team players are still on the roster and new players destined to make the team (Bernard as an example)

will also be on ST.  Not every depth player HAS to be a core player.  If that's true, then Moss needs to be traded/released!

 

I will say it again, Kumerow was only a core ST guy for 1 year in his entire career and he was on the bottom of that list in total snaps.

If he has to be a "roster lock" this year in regard to his ST skills, then Smalley needs to be replaced.

 

The main "sarcasm" in my post is that a guy like Hodgins can learn to take some ST snaps.  If he continues to impress as a WR in the

next couple of weeks he will make the team IMO.   

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

It was pretty good sarcasm if I do say so myself.

Yes, I agree, and Jones and Neal are those guys.  Bernard also was an elite gunner in college.

ALL of last year's top core special team players are still on the roster and new players destined to make the team (Bernard as an example)

will also be on ST.  Not every depth player HAS to be a core player.  If that's true, then Moss needs to be traded/released!

 

I will say it again, Kumerow was only a core ST guy for 1 year in his entire career and he was on the bottom of that list in total snaps.

If he has to be a "roster lock" this year in regard to his ST skills, then Smalley needs to be replaced.

 

The main "sarcasm" in my post is that a guy like Hodgins can learn to take some ST snaps.  If he continues to impress as a WR in the

next couple of weeks he will make the team IMO.   

 

I don't think Kumerow is a roster lock. But I think his special teams ability means he wins ties. Hodgins has to pure beat him out as a receiver. And to do that he has to make plays not against 3rd stringers, which is why as I have said elsewhere what the Bills do with Hodgins this week will tell us a lot. If he is only out there second half with Barkley against the 3s.... then as far as the Bills are concerned he is on the outside looking in. If, however, they give him some run with Keenum and the rest of the "starters" (basically the 2s) then he is in with a shot IMO. 

[FireChans]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You could. But you would be wrong. He isn't one of their top special teamers but he played 19% of ST snaps last year. If you are a depth receiver you need to play teams in some way. 

 

And interestingly when you break this down that is because the games where he played over 60% of the offensive snaps they took him off special teams. Through the first 6 games of last season he was playing on pretty much all their kick coverage units (and averaging about 30% of ST snaps). As his offensive use increased his special teams use decreased. Which is exactly as you would expect it. 

 

There are no 5th or 6th choice receivers who just sit on the bench not playing special teams and waiting for a starter to get injured. 

Who is the Buccaneers Taiwan Jones? 

[ColoradoBills]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think Kumerow is a roster lock. But I think his special teams ability means he wins ties. Hodgins has to pure beat him out as a receiver. And to do that he has to make plays not against 3rd stringers, which is why as I have said elsewhere what the Bills do with Hodgins this week will tell us a lot. If he is only out there second half with Barkley against the 3s.... then as far as the Bills are concerned he is on the outside looking in. If, however, they give him some run with Keenum and the rest of the "starters" (basically the 2s) then he is in with a shot IMO. 

 

True.  But let's not inflate Kumerow's WR skills.  He has proven he can't separate from CBs.  He had his shot at being a reliable depth WR last year.

I think we have seen his ceiling and unless he is destined to replace a guy like Jones for a ST Core Elite guy his lack of WR skills will put

him back on the PS IMO.

 

Hodgins' ceiling is not yet known but he also has taken snaps with the 1s in camp and from all reports played well.  While his play in the next

2 preseason games are important it's been said repeatedly that the overall camp performance is just as, if not more important.

 

It is an interesting situation and you and I see it from different points of view which is fine with me.  I'm quite sure that what you and I are

debating will be exactly what the coaches will be doing in the next couple of weeks.  We will soon all find out what they decide!

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:41 PM, BuffBillsForLife said:

Kumerow is getting the last WR slot over Hodgins because of how much this coaching staff values special teams contributions for backups.

 

I'm just happy we're at the point where our 6th string WR is a real contributor.

 

 

They value ST so much, they prioritize keeping guys solely for the ST ability, only to not trust them to do their job and cover a squib kick with 13 seconds left?  I’m not arguing whether or not they prioritize ST, I agree they have done this in the past, my question is what’s the point if you don’t trust these specialists when it matters most anyway?

 

After that nonsense I don’t understand nor agree with prioritizing guys like Kumerow who have zero potential to develop into a meaningful WR over somebody like Hodgins, or Stevenson even if he was healthy. Hodgins atleast brings the possibility that he could step up and contribute if his number is called, where as Kumerow is what he is at this point in his career.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Dr.Mantis_Toboggan

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Who is the Buccaneers Taiwan Jones? 

 

They don't have a Taiwan Jones, but the Bills are far from the only team who keep an elite gunner just to be a gunner. Multiple Superbowl Champions New England do too. 

27 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

True.  But let's not inflate Kumerow's WR skills.  He has proven he can't separate from CBs.  He had his shot at being a reliable depth WR last year.

I think we have seen his ceiling and unless he is destined to replace a guy like Jones for a ST Core Elite guy his lack of WR skills will put

him back on the PS IMO.

 

Hodgins' ceiling is not yet known but he also has taken snaps with the 1s in camp and from all reports played well.  While his play in the next

2 preseason games are important it's been said repeatedly that the overall camp performance is just as, if not more important.

 

It is an interesting situation and you and I see it from different points of view which is fine with me.  I'm quite sure that what you and I are

debating will be exactly what the coaches will be doing in the next couple of weeks.  We will soon all find out what they decide!

 

I don't think we do see it that differently. Hodgins vs Kumerow is still a competition IMO. My only point is that until the team showd us different they have Kumerow ahead.

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They don't have a Taiwan Jones, but the Bills are far from the only team who keep an elite gunner just to be a gunner. Multiple Superbowl Champions New England do too. 

Yup, that’s why the Pats have all those rings, their gunners… Brady was just along for the ride.

[LABILLBACKER]

I think if Hodgins puts together a couple more good preseason games, we'll be saying goodbye to Kumerow. It's mind bogling that this organization puts so much emphasis on ST only to ignore them like the KC game. 

[ColoradoBills]

21 minutes ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

 

After that nonsense I don’t understand nor agree with prioritizing guys like Kumerow who have zero potential to develop into a meaningful WR over somebody like Hodgins, or Stevenson even if he was healthy. Hodgins atleast brings the possibility that he could step up and contribute if his number is called, where as Kumerow is what he is at this point in his career.

 

This is all I've been saying.  Slow clap from me.  The crazy thing is when Kumerow was picked up by the Bills I had high hopes he could

be the cheap/reliable depth WR that all teams need.  I feel that last year was his big chance and I have to now admit, he is who he is.

A JAG receiver at best who is pretty good on ST.

 

In regard to ST, the Bills have a lot of players who excel on the squads and if they move on from Kumerow I am confident they have

other players that can take up his snaps.  The only other point I try to make is we haven't seen how effective Hodgins can be on ST.

 

My hope was for Kumerow, now it's for Hodgins.  If he fails, they need to reload with another next year.

[Scott7975]

If it were me I would keep Hodgins over Kumerow.  Just because Kumerow played special teams doesn't mean he isn't replaceable on special teams.

[FireChans]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They don't have a Taiwan Jones, but the Bills are far from the only team who keep an elite gunner just to be a gunner. Multiple Superbowl Champions New England do too. 

 

I don't think we do see it that differently. Hodgins vs Kumerow is still a competition IMO. My only point is that until the team showd us different they have Kumerow ahead.

As we have seen, they have kept their elite gunner but the Super Bowls have dried up over the last couple seasons. 

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Sarcasm aside, the point is the Bills do have elite gunners. So why would you take away an elite element of your team in order to prioritise a 5th or 6th guy at a position where they are very unlikely to see the field? I'm sure they want to see Isaiah play some special teams because for them to even consider keeping him above a guy who has proven very able at it would be taking a voluntary downgrade to your team. 

You’re bias for gunners Bill, so how can we take your word for the above 👆 

 

 😂

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

Yup, that’s why the Pats have all those rings, their gunners… Brady was just along for the ride.

 

That was not the argument. But the argument that it is somehow a waste of a roster spot doesn't get past the point that the most successful dynasty of all time always carried one.

7 minutes ago, FireChans said:

As we have seen, they have kept their elite gunner but the Super Bowls have dried up over the last couple seasons. 

 

But nobody is arguing an elite gunner wins you Superbowls. Just that they add more value to your team than fringe talent depth players.

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But nobody is arguing an elite gunner wins you Superbowls. Just that they add more value to your team than fringe talent depth players.

 

It's also true that many "fringe talent depth players" once given an opportunity have excelled.

The Bills to their credit have a couple of elite gunners already with hopefully another (Bernard) in the wings.

At this point Kumerow is a depth gunner.

 

I'll get off my Hyde Park soapbox now!

[Brand J]

We can no longer argue about Araiza and his ability or inability to hold for FGs, so the discussion has moved to gunner gods on STs. How lovely it is to have such a strong roster! Go Bills! 💙❤️

[FireChans]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That was not the argument. But the argument that it is somehow a waste of a roster spot doesn't get past the point that the most successful dynasty of all time always carried one.

 

But nobody is arguing an elite gunner wins you Superbowls. Just that they add more value to your team than fringe talent depth players.

I reject the assertion that it’s IMPORTANT.

 

2020 Bucs had 29th ST unit in the NFL per DVOA. 
 

2019 KC was 2.

 

2018 NE was 16.

 

2017 PHI was 16.

 

2016 NE was 8.

 

It doesn’t matter. 
 

The history of the NFL tells us it’s much more important to be elite offensively or defensively than have anything better than average STers. If you have two young guys who are both gonna be at the end of the roster, and one is a better STer, by all means keep that one. But this fixation with maximizing the ST unit with players who will NEVER EVER be contributors on the offensive or defensive side of the ball is just poor strategy. Siran Neal is a good example. Great youngish (well not anymore) STer who can play some defense. Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow is puke.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I reject the assertion that it’s IMPORTANT.

 

2020 Bucs had 29th ST unit in the NFL per DVOA. 
 

2019 KC was 2.

 

2018 NE was 16.

 

2017 PHI was 16.

 

2016 NE was 8.

 

It doesn’t matter. 
 

The history of the NFL tells us it’s much more important to be elite offensively or defensively than have anything better than average STers. If you have two young guys who are both gonna be at the end of the roster, and one is a better STer, by all means keep that one. But this fixation with maximizing the ST unit with players who will NEVER EVER be contributors on the offensive or defensive side of the ball is just poor strategy. Siran Neal is a good example. Great youngish (well not anymore) STer who can play some defense. Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow is puke.

 

That is not what the Bills are doing. They are keeping an elite gunner (Jones) over some guys who are fringe talents and never see the field. 

 

On Kumerow I agree with you. But someone has to beat him off the roster. If someone does that he won't be here.

[SWATeam]

Hodgins has a pretty nice release for a big guy.  Intriguing for sure.

[Turk71]

I don't think Kumerow is anything special on STs or as a wr. Hodgins fits a niche as a wr that the Bills need. I think it would be a mistake to let him go. If they do I think he will be picked up and have a decent career somewhere else.

  

On 8/15/2022 at 2:17 PM, Don Otreply said:

All the points folk are making in this thread are valid, to include what you posted, it’s is gonna be a narrow window for him to make the 53, especially if they go with 6 WRs, if the go with 7 he has a slightly bigger window. It would suck if we attempt to practice squad the guy and he get poached by another team going through the waiver process, we shall see. 

I think trying to put him on the p s would be the same as releasing him. He will almost certainly be poached imo.

I saw him play in college many times and was in the stadium for 2 of his games. He caught almost everything thrown in his direction and was most efficient in the red zone; 12 red zone targets for 12 catches and 9 tds his last college year.

 On a side note; his father James Hodgins spent 8 years in the NFL as a fullback and won a SB with the Rams lead blocking for Marshall Faulk. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Turk71

[Don Otreply]

7 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

I don't think Kumerow is anything special on STs or as a wr. Hodgins fits a niche as a wr that the Bills need. I think it would be a mistake to let him go. If they do I think he will be picked up and have a decent career somewhere else.

  

I think trying to put him on the p s would be the same as releasing him. He will almost certainly be poached imo.

I saw him play in college many times and was in the stadium for 2 of his games. He caught almost everything thrown in his direction and was most efficient in the red zone; 12 red zone targets for 12 catches and 9 tds his last college year.

 On a side note; his father James Hodgins spent 8 years in the NFL as a fullback and won a SB with the Rams lead blocking for Marshall Faulk. 

I quite agree with you, in that putting Hodgins through waviers is the same as cutting him results wise, he would never make it to the PS, imo we need to figure out the correct way to get him on the 53.  I’m certain Beane understands this as well. 

[BillsFanNC]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

I reject the assertion that it’s IMPORTANT.

 

2020 Bucs had 29th ST unit in the NFL per DVOA. 
 

2019 KC was 2.

 

2018 NE was 16.

 

2017 PHI was 16.

 

2016 NE was 8.

 

It doesn’t matter. 
 

The history of the NFL tells us it’s much more important to be elite offensively or defensively than have anything better than average STers. If you have two young guys who are both gonna be at the end of the roster, and one is a better STer, by all means keep that one. But this fixation with maximizing the ST unit with players who will NEVER EVER be contributors on the offensive or defensive side of the ball is just poor strategy. Siran Neal is a good example. Great youngish (well not anymore) STer who can play some defense. Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow is puke.

 

Attempting to minimize the importance of special teams in any way to a fanbase that's witnessed...

 

Wide right

 

Music city debacle 

 

13 seconds

 

Isn't going to fly.

[FireChans]

14 minutes ago, DRsGhost said:

 

Attempting to minimize the importance of special teams in any way to a fanbase that's witnessed...

 

Wide right

 

Music city debacle 

 

13 seconds

 

Isn't going to fly.

My friend, overemphasizing 3 plays over 32 years ain’t the way. But point taken lol.

 

IMO, 13 seconds was a failure of defense INFINITELY more than ST. 

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is not what the Bills are doing. They are keeping an elite gunner (Jones) over some guys who are fringe talents and never see the field. 

 

On Kumerow I agree with you. But someone has to beat him off the roster. If someone does that he won't be here.

I really don’t think elite gunners matter. 
 

This emphasis on special teams will disappear as football is dragged kicking and screaming into the analytic age. I just truly don’t believe the value is there IRT roster building. It will suck for guys like Taiwan Jones and Jake Kumerow across the league, but IMO your special teams coach is supposed to get your end of the roster people coached up on ST, not need “elite” bums. 
 

Guys like Stefon Diggs and AB were STers early in their careers. I would hate to be the team that gets rid of them too early in favor of 32 year old gunners. 

[John from Riverside]

37 minutes ago, DRsGhost said:

 

Attempting to minimize the importance of special teams in any way to a fanbase that's witnessed...

 

Wide right

 

Music city debacle 

 

13 seconds

 

Isn't going to fly.

Why did 13 seconds get included in that

[Pete]

9 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Why did 13 seconds get included in that

Kicking off instead of squib kicking it