PFF 10 top coaches...LOL

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Yeah, doesn't seem far off. I'd say anywhere between 5-8 for me. Speaking for myself, I'd consider that a "top tier". Others may feel differently I guess.

IMO there are clearly 5-7 coaches who are above McDermott- the three aforementioned, Tomlin/McVay/Shanahan, then any combination of Vrabel/McDermott/Reich you prefer

[Augie]

2 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

And this is yet another example why PFF is trash.

 

@Royale with Cheese told me all I need to know. They will get no clicks from me! 

[FilthyBeast]

1 minute ago, 4merper4mer said:

Shirley they can’t be serious with a Mike McCarthy in the top 10.

 

He's a SB winning head coach and that matters so I would also put him in the top 10 and above McD for that reason alone.

 

Also when you consider what a circus the Dallas front office is with Jerry Jones at the helm it's still a big deal that he got the Cowboys back to the playoffs and won the division last year regardless of getting bounced in the first round.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree. His 7-9 coaching job two years ago with a bottom 5 roster and the absolute worst QB play in the league was one of his best coached seasons IMO. Even getting them to 10 wins last year. I think they should, by talent alone, be one of the worst 5 teams in the league this season. It is probably bad for the Pats that he keeps them overachieving with their talent because they need some difference makers and they have stopped finding them later in the draft so early picks would help. But he is still coaching the hell out of that team. They are just less talented. 

 

I think he's a big reason why they have less talent.  He hasn't drafted well and offered bad contracts to veteran players.  

I think losing McDaniels will hurt them a lot and their offense will be a mess.  

 

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

IMO there are clearly 5-7 coaches who are above McDermott- the three aforementioned, Tomlin/McVay/Shanahan, then any combination of Vrabel/McDermott/Reich you prefer

Yeah, I can't really argue with ya about that. Reason I guessed 5-8. Probably about 8th though I'd say, but I do think he's top 10

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I think he's a big reason why they have less talent.  He hasn't drafted well and offered bad contracts to veteran players.  

I think losing McDaniels will hurt them a lot and their offense will be a mess.  

 

 

He is. But this ranking is of them as coaches. Bill the GM has hurt Bill the coach over the last 5 or 6 years, no question. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

I stopped scrolling when I didn't see Mike Tomlin as a HOF HC.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

He's a SB winning head coach and that matters so I would also put him in the top 10 and above McD for that reason alone.

 

Also when you consider what a circus the Dallas front office is with Jerry Jones at the helm it's still a big deal that he got the Cowboys back to the playoffs and won the division last year regardless of getting bounced in the first round.

 

 

 

So that means Doug Pederson should be in the top 10 as well since he won a Super Bowl?

 

The Cowboys have talent and a franchise level QB...and in the NFC East which is a terrible division.  The Cowboys underperformed.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

IMO there are clearly 5-7 coaches who are above McDermott- the three aforementioned, Tomlin/McVay/Shanahan, then any combination of Vrabel/McDermott/Reich you prefer

 

I have Shanahan in the Vrabel/McDermott tier. I'm not going to argue if someone ranks Shanahan best of that tier, but there is no way he belongs ahead of Tomlin or McVay for me. I have Reich below that Vrabel/McDermott/Shanny tier because his team plays way too many let down games year after year and his only playoff win is against Bill O'Brien. 

[FilthyBeast]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So that means Doug Pederson should be in the top 10 as well since he won a Super Bowl?

 

The Cowboys have talent and a franchise level QB...and in the NFC East which is a terrible division.  The Cowboys underperformed.

 

Yes 100%, probably even more so because he's responsible for the only championship in franchise history in Philly.

 

I think the Jaguars are going to take a massive step this year too with him down there. Maybe not playoffs just yet but they will be a factor and probably can win 7 or 8 games.

 

That's why for all the shortcomings and lowlights McDermott has so far in his career, if he can coach this team to a SB win he'd be legendary and nobody will care about '13 seconds' or anything else.

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I have Shanahan in the Vrabel/McDermott tier. I'm not going to argue if someone ranks Shanahan best of that tier, but there is no way he belongs ahead of Tomlin or McVay for me. I have Reich below that Vrabel/McDermott/Shanny tier because his team plays way too many let down games year after year and his only playoff win is against Bill O'Brien. 

Yeah I'm with you here. I'd put Vrabel/McD basically same with one no better than other. Agree with Reich also....

[GoBills808]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I have Shanahan in the Vrabel/McDermott tier. I'm not going to argue if someone ranks Shanahan best of that tier, but there is no way he belongs ahead of Tomlin or McVay for me. I have Reich below that Vrabel/McDermott/Shanny tier because his team plays way too many let down games year after year and his only playoff win is against Bill O'Brien. 

McDermott's teams have shown the same tendencies, and he actually lost to Bill O'Brien in the playoffs.

Just now, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Yeah I'm with you here. I'd put Vrabel/McD basically same with one no better than other. Agree with Reich also....

Shanahan has taken JimmyG to the Super Bowl and an NFCCG, that's got to count for something

[Ethan in Cleveland]

OMG this has to be a joke!

 

I have not shied away from criticizing McDermott but there is no way in hell he is 18th in the league.  He is not without his faults, but he is easily a top 10 coach and leagues ahead of some of these clowns like McCarthy and Kingsbury ranked ahead of him.  

 

McDermott sticks true to his roots as a former defensive coordinator, helming strong units on that side of the ball while not always getting expected results out of his offenses based on talent level.

 

And this description is 180 degree false.  It's the defense that has let us down time and again while the offense has been great.  Anyone that even casually followed the Bills would know the QBs they faced last year were garbage and the defense cost us the SB.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If this list was 5-7 years ago, I would have Belicheck up there.  I don't think he's even top 5 now.  

How do you figure that?  He took a team with a rookie QB to the playoffs and beat the Bills at home throwing the ball three times.  Seems he is still at the top of his game.  I agree he is a terrible GM but would you want any other coach to game plan to win one game other than Belichick?

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

Get over it. McDermott is a top tier coach in this league. If you choose to condemn him for 13 seconds and ignore the rest of what he has accomplished, that is on you.

im over it... I am saying how it looks to outsiders. And I do believe McD is top tier. 

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

McDermott's teams have shown the same tendencies, and he actually lost to Bill O'Brien in the playoffs.

Shanahan has taken JimmyG to the Super Bowl and an NFCCG, that's got to count for something

Definitely, I mainly was referring to Vrabel/Reich. Guess I should have clarified a bit more. I can see how some would put Shanahan 1 or 2 spots ahead of McD. 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

McDermott's teams have shown the same tendencies, and he actually lost to Bill O'Brien in the playoffs.

Shanahan has taken JimmyG to the Super Bowl and an NFCCG, that's got to count for something

 

Not to anywhere close the level Reich's have. 

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, Ethan in Portland said:

How do you figure that?  He took a team with a rookie QB to the playoffs and beat the Bills at home throwing the ball three times.  Seems he is still at the top of his game.  I agree he is a terrible GM but would you want any other coach to game plan to win one game other than Belichick?

Well, that particular game isn't a very good argument. I mean that type of weather game could go either way for any teams. If you want to stick with that though, I'd say one could put it on Daboll more than McD

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

How do you figure that?  He took a team with a rookie QB to the playoffs and beat the Bills at home throwing the ball three times.  Seems he is still at the top of his game.  I agree he is a terrible GM but would you want any other coach to game plan to win one game other than Belichick?

 

McDermott took the Bills to the playoffs with a career back up and a bunch or WR's that weren't in the league 2-3 years later.

 

So he beat the Bills in a terrible weather game.  What happened the next two times?  Well, in those 14 drives, we scored 11 TD's, Emmanuel Sanders dropped a TD pass and kicked two FG's.  Did Belicheck lack talent on defense or was he severely outcoached?

[MJS]

39 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

What’s top tier? 

A tier is "one of two or more rows, levels, or ranks arranged one above another."

 

Imagine that there are multiple tiers of coaches in the league, then imagine that there is a top tier of coaches. Then imagine that McDermott is in that top tier.

 

That's what I mean.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

I think their reasoning is lazy and I don't like a lot of that list...but I think McD being somewhere in the middle of the pack is pretty accurate. 

 

I also agree with what a couple of others have said in this thread...they mentioned his strong defensive acumen but his defenses have consistently come up small in the biggest games and moments of his time here. 

[GoBills808]

Just now, MJS said:

A tier is "one of two or more rows, levels, or ranks arranged one above another."

 

Imagine that there are multiple tiers of coaches in the league, then imagine that there is a top tier of coaches. Then imagine that McDermott is in that top tier.

 

That's what I mean.

Imagine being wrong then.

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Definitely, I mainly was referring to Vrabel/Reich. Guess I should have clarified a bit more. I can see how some would put Shanahan 1 or 2 spots ahead of McD. 

 

 

 

So can I. Shanahan above McDermott I think is fair. But he is still in that tier to me rather than in the top 2 tiers. Personally I have Shanny #6, McDermott #7 and Vrabel #8. 

[MJS]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Imagine being wrong then.

Go look at any other coach ranking and McDermott will be among the top coaches.

 

You McDermott haters are getting more and more lonely, and your arguments are getting more and more flimsy.

[GoBills808]

Just now, MJS said:

Go look at any other coach ranking and McDermott will be among the top coaches.

 

You McDermott haters are getting more and more lonely, and your arguments are getting more and more flimsy.

There is no sensible way of including McDermott in the top tier of NFL head coaches. 

And LMAO at McDermott hater. I think he’s a good HC

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, cle23 said:

I'm not saying I agree with them, but they are basing it on if they had an average roster.  So it's not a ranking on how the coaches have performed with their given team, but how they THINK they'd perform if every coach was given the exact same roster of average players.

So what did they think about McDs first season, when they had your boy Tyrod and Nate peterman leading the team to the playoffs while throwing to Kelvin Benjamin and Zay Jones.  The same season everyone proclaimed us to be tanking based on the talent level of the roster. Yet McD broke the playoff drought…..in his first season. I’m sure that carries zero weight….

[Patrick Duffy]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

So can I. Shanahan above McDermott I think is fair. But he is still in that tier to me rather than in the top 2 tiers. Personally I have Shanny #6, McDermott #7 and Vrabel #8. 

Yeah, That's about where I'm at. For me, I can't see McD no worse than 8th, or maybe even 9th. But better than 10th

[machine gun kelly]

2 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

 

 

In a similarly useful, highly scientific exercise, I am going to rank the best flavors of ice cream but stipulate for the purposes of my rankings that they all have to taste like mashed potatoes.

 

Talk about off-season filler content...

 

 

My throat hurts from laughing so hard at

this comment.  We’ll done my six fingered friend.  I can expect reasonably 4th or so would be fair as Belichick, and Harbaugh makes a lot of sense with longevity of success, and can even go along with McVeigh as he has two SB appearances with one win.  That’s why 4th or 5th if you throw in Reid.  This just makes PFF a joke.  PFF, 20th in offense.  Do thesE morons not see we were too 3 in the NFL in offense on the last two years and now his OC just was promoted to the Giants HC.

[hondo in seattle]

Here's the problem with using analytics to judge coaches.

Players thrive under good coaches.  Because the players are playing well, they're rated highly by the analytic guys.  So the expectation is that the coach wins all his games because he has the better rated players.  

 

Analytic nerds are still struggling to fairly evaluate players given all the things that impact their performance (coaching, scheme, the players around them, their responsibility on each playcall, etc.).  They're not remotely ready to evaluate coaches.  

Edited June 7, 2022 by hondo in seattle

[Rocky Landing]

I've read a lot of annoying things in PFF, but this may be the worst. Ignoring the article's rankings, and just reading the author's comments is enough. He completely ignores such concepts as team building and culture. It appears that he doesn't consider anything a head coach does beyond game-day on the sideline. The only thing he seems to regard before last season is coaches reputations. I frankly think he knows almost nothing about many of these teams, and coaches beyond the stat sheets in front of his face. And seriously-- Kliff Kingsbury #4...?

 

And I'll just go ahead and be a homer here in defense of our Sean McDermott: "...not always getting expected results out of his offenses based on talent level." Perhaps this author doesn't know the Buffalo Bills of 2017 (and their first playoff appearance in nearly two decades) , captained by Tyrod Taylor throwing to fat-ass Kelvin Benjimin, and Mills, and Ducasse protecting the right side of the O-line? 

[Patrick Duffy]

1 minute ago, hondo in seattle said:

Here's the problem with using analytics to judge coaches.

Players thrive under good coaches.  Because the players are playing well, they're rated highly by the analytic guys.  So the expectation is that the coach wins all his games because he has the better rated players.  

I'm sure many do rank in that particular way. For me, I think you also have to look at how a particular coach manages his roster. Things like players respect and wanting to play for said coach. Also bringing the team together and getting the most from each player. Character can also play a part. 

 

It's logical to consider those other things like that along with W/L records. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

33 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

McDermott took the Bills to the playoffs with a career back up and a bunch or WR's that weren't in the league 2-3 years later.

 

So he beat the Bills in a terrible weather game.  What happened the next two times?  Well, in those 14 drives, we scored 11 TD's, Emmanuel Sanders dropped a TD pass and kicked two FG's.  Did Belicheck lack talent on defense or was he severely outcoached?

He has eight SB rings.  You really think he is not a top tier coach any more?  What McD accomplished with TT and that bunch of WR's is very impressive. So is Belichick getting to the playoffs with a rookie QB.  The two don't need to be mutually exclusive.

 

As for the playoff game, I was there and there was simply no stopping Allen that day.  Everything worked including the throw away TD to Knox.  No team was beating the Bills at home in that setting on that day.  

33 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

McDermott took the Bills to the playoffs with a career back up and a bunch or WR's that weren't in the league 2-3 years later.

 

So he beat the Bills in a terrible weather game.  What happened the next two times?  Well, in those 14 drives, we scored 11 TD's, Emmanuel Sanders dropped a TD pass and kicked two FG's.  Did Belicheck lack talent on defense or was he severely outcoached?

He has eight SB rings.  You really think he is not a top tier coach any more?  What McD accomplished with TT and that bunch of WR's is very impressive. So is Belichick getting to the playoffs with a rookie QB.  The two don't need to be mutually exclusive.

 

As for the playoff game, I was there and there was simply no stopping Allen that day.  Everything worked including the throw away TD to Knox.  No team was beating the Bills at home in that setting on that day.  

[Cray51]

I took some time to understand the analysis, I think they are missing a lot of key context around roster construction (which they did say they were omitting) and nuance from year to year.  Looking at the list, coaches I would immediately put beneath McD are:

 

Kingsbury - had a 5-9 first season where they bottomed out, then brought in Kyler and Hopkins.  Were average two seasons ago (and fizzled out at the end of the year), and slightly above average this year, with a slew of offensive weapons and a 1st overall rookie QB at the helm.

 

Pete Carroll - he was great in the mid 2010s, but man has his team struggled over the last few seasons.  He had a top 5 QB the entire decade, but his defense is what has struggled.  Just poor design and execution.

 

Frank Reich - Hasn't had a season about 11 wins, in potentially the easiest division in the AFC.  Carousel of QBs aside, I just havent seen enough wins when it has mattered to push him above McD, who has made the AFC Championship game and playoffs in 4 of 5 years

 

Mike Mccarthy - Was fired from GB recently, took a Cowboys team loaded with talent (their roster was very strong last year) to a 12-5 record (which is what should have been expected with that roster and in that division) and lost in the WC.  Nobody looks at Mccarthy as a coach who elevates the roster currently.

 

Brandon Staley - simply not done enough.  9-8 is a decent record, but top 12 coach?  Needs more time

 

Nick Sirianni - Limped to a 9-8 record (similar to McD in his rookie year as HC) but was blown out by Tampa.  Wasn't even a close matchup.  Needs to show much more

 

Doug Pederson - Had one great year, with Nick Foles running Reich's inventive offense.  Has been average to below average every other year, and was fired recently.

 

That puts McD right around 10th with Tomlin, Vrabel, McVay - where I think he should be.  Playoffs in 4 of 5 seasons, elevated the results of a completely dysfunctional organization in Year 1.  Competitive defense all 5 years, brought in a slew of coordinators who have moved onto promotions, and has improved his own coaching ability year over year.  To me he is right there with Vrabel, if not slightly ahead.

[AmishRifle]

Hopefully McDermott uses this as personal bulletin board material!  

[GoBills808]

Sean McDermott is not a top tier NFL head coach shouldn’t be that controversial a statement.

[todd]

Their methodology is inherently flawed. From a quantitative standpoint, they leave out strength of schedule, weather, etc.

 

From a qualitative standpoint, they don't address this at all. Leadership and motivational qualities, how they treat players, etc. 

 

This is the problem with PFF. They try to break everything down into quantitative items, and certain things absolutely cannot be measured that way. But hey, they try. The PFF results are absolute crap much of the time for this reason.

[Cray51]

3 minutes ago, todd said:

Their methodology is inherently flawed. From a quantitative standpoint, they leave out strength of schedule, weather, etc.

 

From a qualitative standpoint, they don't address this at all. Leadership and motivational qualities, how they treat players, etc. 

 

This is the problem with PFF. They try to break everything down into quantitative items, and certain things absolutely cannot be measured that way. But hey, they try. The PFF results are absolute crap much of the time for this reason.

I find it funny that they use a simple quantitative equation, pair it with a 2 variable analysis, add their own thoughts and opinions on top of it all, leave our core variables, and come off as some intensive statistical breakdown and analysis.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I stopped at PFF

 

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

He has eight SB rings.  You really think he is not a top tier coach any more?  What McD accomplished with TT and that bunch of WR's is very impressive. So is Belichick getting to the playoffs with a rookie QB.  The two don't need to be mutually exclusive.

 

As for the playoff game, I was there and there was simply no stopping Allen that day.  Everything worked including the throw away TD to Knox.  No team was beating the Bills at home in that setting on that day.  

 

Yes, he's an All Time Great.  I'm talking about now...I don't view him as that anymore.  

 

Not just the playoff game, we dominated his defense in New England in week 16. 

 

I think Brady covered his warts while he was in New England.  He's a below .500 coach without Brady.  

7 minutes ago, todd said:

Their methodology is inherently flawed. From a quantitative standpoint, they leave out strength of schedule, weather, etc.

 

From a qualitative standpoint, they don't address this at all. Leadership and motivational qualities, how they treat players, etc. 

 

This is the problem with PFF. They try to break everything down into quantitative items, and certain things absolutely cannot be measured that way. But hey, they try. The PFF results are absolute crap much of the time for this reason.

 

Bingo.

[CircleTheWagons99]

I still dont get why people go to that site, Poor Football Focus.......