Bobby Wagner released

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He's a liability when offenses exploit his slow processing. His instincts really haven't improved at all since entering the league. Mahomes regularly manipulates him with his eyes. A less athletic but more instinctual LB in Logan Wilson stays disciplined and does a better job taking away the middle of the field against the Chiefs, despite having quite a bit less range, because he doesn’t fall for the manipulation.

 

I don't need a playmaker at MLB. I just need someone that can process the play as it's happening and react accordingly.

PATRICK MAHOMES! UGH.

 

 

[Big Blitz]

Wagner had 170 tackles this year. 

 

He's always around the ball on every run play.  I think he's still a top 5 MLB in the league.  

 

Edmunds had 107 tackles.  He'll be 24 in May.  Monster season was just supposed to happen and we sucked vs good running teams.  

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Wagner had 170 tackles this year. 

 

He's always around the ball on every run play.  I think he's still a top 5 MLB in the league.  

 

Edmunds had 107 tackles.  He'll be 24 in May.  Monster season was just supposed to happen and we sucked vs good running teams.  

Yeah brutal vs the Colts😂😂

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Wagner had 170 tackles this year. 

 

He's always around the ball on every run play.  I think he's still a top 5 MLB in the league.  

 

Edmunds had 107 tackles.  He'll be 24 in May.  Monster season was just supposed to happen and we sucked vs good running teams.  

We're not built to stop good running teams. Does anyone here know their team?

 

Is there anyone that's good vs the run on our team consistently? 

 

Edmunds didn't play in our worst game vs the run.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[HappyDays]

20 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

PATRICK MAHOMES! UGH.

 

 

 

Yeah, the guy that we eventually have to stop to win a Super Bowl. If one of our core defensive players is that easily abused by the QB that will be our nemesis for the next decade, it's not a good long term fit. I'm at the point where any potential roster move we make on defense I'm asking "how does this player help us against the Chiefs?" For Edmunds the answer is "he doesn’t." To my eyes he is in fact a direct liability against the Chiefs. That doesn't mean he's a terrible player. Just a bad fit for that final barrier we need to cross.

 

For similar reasons I'd like to see us upgrade Levi Wallace this year. Edmunds and Wallace are good enough players against most teams, but not against the one team that has knocked us out of the playoffs in two consecutive years.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by HappyDays

[Big Blitz]

25 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yeah brutal vs the Colts😂😂

 

 

CEH and Jerrick McKinnon (5 catches 54 yards) looked good. 

 

Henry.  I know.  1 carry 75 yards.  

 

Patriots round 1.  Not awful but infuriating.  Wagner's presence doesn't allow that to happen.  

 

Harris had 18 for 103 in round 2

 

Fournette 113 yards 

 

Patterson and Davis 17 carries 70 yds and a TD

 

 

My God we played trash offenses.  Definitely run it all back on D.  

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Big Blitz

[YattaOkasan]

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah, the guy that we eventually have to stop to win a Super Bowl. If one of our core defensive players is that easily abused by the QB that will be our nemesis for the next decade, it's not a good long term fit. I'm at the point where any potential roster move we make on defense I'm asking "how does this player help us against the Chiefs?" For Edmunds the answer is "he doesn’t." To my eyes he is in fact a direct liability against the Chiefs. That doesn't mean he's a terrible player. Just a bad fit for that final barrier we need to cross.

 

For similar reasons I'd like to see us upgrade Levi Wallace this year. Edmunds and Wallace are good enough players against most teams, but not against the one team that has knocked us out of the playoffs in two consecutive years.

 

Edmunds did fine the first game against the chiefs (with out Milano). No tre is the difference between the first and second games. I think we play much better defense with tre on the field.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah, the guy that we eventually have to stop to win a Super Bowl. If one of our core defensive players is that easily abused by the QB that will be our nemesis for the next decade, it's not a good long term fit. I'm at the point where any potential roster move we make on defense I'm asking "how does this player help us against the Chiefs?" For Edmunds the answer is "he doesn’t." To my eyes he is in fact a direct liability against the Chiefs. That doesn't mean he's a terrible player. Just a bad fit for that final barrier we need to cross.

 

For similar reasons I'd like to see us upgrade Levi Wallace this year. Edmunds and Wallace are good enough players against most teams, but not against the one team that has knocked us out of the playoffs in two consecutive years.

 

In all my years playing and studying football I've never heard anyone say the way to stop a top QB is with elite Mike linebackers. 

 

I've heard pass rush and CB's, but this is a 1st. 

 

Our defensive line and DBs haven't been good enough in the playoffs vs KC.

[BuffBillsForLife]

Wagner would be an unbelievable boost to our D.  The question is, is his first priority getting paid or trying to chase another ring?  He already has one so money might be the big motivator and I don't know if Beane is going to back up the Brinks truck for a LB in his 30s, even if he's probably going in the HOF.  I have no actual evidence to support this but I still believe JJ Watt didn't sign here because we lowballed him and I'm worried the same thing will happen again.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

Wagner would be an unbelievable boost to our D.  The question is, is his first priority getting paid or trying to chase another ring?  He already has one so money might be the big motivator and I don't know if Beane is going to back up the Brinks truck for a LB in his 30s, even if he's probably going in the HOF.  I have no actual evidence to support this but I still believe JJ Watt didn't sign here because we lowballed him and I'm worried the same thing will happen again.

I think the Bills were still convincing the NFL they're real contenders. This is the first time in probably 30 years that good players will be calling the Bills to come join them. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

Sign him to a 3 year deal that you can get out after two if need be, and then trade Edmunds, draft a replacement next year to groom under Wagner.

 

I agree Edmunds not worth the second contract and should get a 2nd or early 3rd at worst in a trade.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Dr.Mantis_Toboggan

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

Edmunds did fine the first game against the chiefs (with out Milano). No tre is the difference between the first and second games. I think we play much better defense with tre on the field.

 

Mahomes played like crap in our regular season win. He had open throws and just flat out missed them. It was an underrated storyline from that game.

 

16 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

In all my years playing and studying football I've never heard anyone say the way to stop a top QB is with elite Mike linebackers. 

 

I've heard pass rush and CB's, but this is a 1st. 

 

Our defensive line and DBs haven't been good enough in the playoffs vs KC.

 

I don't need an elite MLB... I need one capable of processing and reacting at an above average level. Logan Wilson isn't an explosive player, he just does what he's supposed to.

 

Agreed our DL hasn't been nearly good enough against KC. That's a separate issue that also needs to be addressed.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by HappyDays

[Buffalo_Stampede]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Mahomes played like crap in our regular season win. He had open throws and just flat out missed them. It was an underrated storyline from that game.

 

 

I don't need an elite MLB... I need one capable of processing and reacting at an above average level. Logan Wilson isn't an explosive player, he just does what he's supposed to.

 

Agreed our DL hasn't been nearly good enough against KC. That's a separate issue that also needs to be addressed.

 

It's not a separate issue. It's the issue.

[GoBills808]

43 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

CEH and Jerrick McKinnon (5 catches 54 yards) looked good. 

 

Henry.  I know.  1 carry 75 yards.  

 

Patriots round 1.  Not awful but infuriating.  Wagner's presence doesn't allow that to happen.  

 

Harris had 18 for 103 in round 2

 

Fournette 113 yards 

 

Patterson and Davis 17 carries 70 yds and a TD

 

 

My God we played trash offenses.  Definitely run it all back on D.  

 

 

Henry went for 182 against the Seahawks

23 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Mahomes played like crap in our regular season win. He had open throws and just flat out missed them. It was an underrated storyline from that game.

 

 

I don't need an elite MLB... I need one capable of processing and reacting at an above average level. Logan Wilson isn't an explosive player, he just does what he's supposed to.

 

Agreed our DL hasn't been nearly good enough against KC. That's a separate issue that also needs to be addressed.

 

And yet it was definitely the Bengals LB that caused him to play poorly 😂😂

[BobbyC81]

5 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

That's exaclty what I said to him. I dont think anything hurt worse than seeing Thurman in a Dolphins jersey. 

Who said they are committed to Edmunds? They are only committed until there is a better opportunity.  Wagner is the superior player by far even at his age. Edmunds will never be anything more than an average MLB. Trade him and get a high pick to help the OL and or DL.

Beane, McDermott & Frazier repeatedly say Edmunds is great for them.  Why would they get rid of him?

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

It's a 5th year option. You use the 5th year option for two reasons: to lock up a good player for another year while you work out an extension, or to lock up a player for another year of evaluation who you aren't 100% sure about yet.

 

Edmunds is fine. He works. He gets the job done. Moving on from him without having an immediate upgrade is not an option, which is why you take the 5th year option. Bringing in Wagner would be a huge upgrade.

 

 

Yeah, I get it about the 5th year option.

 

Here's the thing ... the 5th year option for Edmunds costs $12.3M.

 

Do you pay an average guy $12.3M a year? NO. You do not.

 

Do you pay an average guy $12.3M a year if, as you say, "it gives you an extra year while you work out an extension"? NO. You do not. You don't need to work out an extension with an average guy if it costs you $12.3M to do it. You can get an average guy elsewhere cheaper and without paying them anywhere near that much. Do you lock up an average guy for another year because "you aren't quite sure about him yet" by paying him $12.3M? NO. You don't do any of those things for an average guy. The idea isn't just bad, it's ludicrous.

 

And I think of you as a smart poster, so I have a really hard time understanding why you're saying something as weird as this. You say that he's average and then you go on to say that moving on from him without an immediate upgrade is not an option. Those two statements are absolutely incongruent. It's a piece of cake to find an average guy, easier still to upgrade from him with $12.3M. You do it. What you don't do to replace an average guy, you don't pay him vastly over his replacement cost. And $12.3M is far far far over the replacement cost of an average linebacker. Sorry, man, the idea doesn't make sense.

 

Again, Beane said THIS WEEK that Edmunds is "definitely" a "core building block moving forward." He simply wouldn't do that if he thought Edmunds was average But more, there isn't a single GM in the league right down to the horrible ones who is stupid enough to do that. To replace a guy who's average you can bring in an FA for probably $3M, and that's the smart thing to do for an average guy.

 

Your opinion is very clearly completely opposite from Beane's. And frankly, if the choice is between believing Beane and believing a guy on the internet. that's not even a real choice. The reason I'm right on this isn't that I'm smart. I don't claim that. I'm just a guy on the internet too. But Beane isn't. He's one of the best GMs in the game. When I find myself disagreeing with Beane, I simply figure that with the vast difference in information he has, experience he has, contacts he has, access to guys like McDermott and our assistant coaches that he has, if I disagree with him about something happening on the Bills about a guy who's been on the team for four years, I'm almost certainly wrong.

 

 

 

You too. All of us here too.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

 

 

3 hours ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

Wagner would be an unbelievable boost to our D.  The question is, is his first priority getting paid or trying to chase another ring?  He already has one so money might be the big motivator and I don't know if Beane is going to back up the Brinks truck for a LB in his 30s, even if he's probably going in the HOF.  I have no actual evidence to support this but I still believe JJ Watt didn't sign here because we lowballed him and I'm worried the same thing will happen again.

 

 

Wagner might indeed be a real boost.

 

If he played at the same level he played at when younger, he absolutely would be. Even if he played at the level he played at last year he'd be an upgrade. But his production has already started to fall. It is likely to continue doing so. And older guys are more likely to be injured. He'd also be expensive.

 

You mention J.J. Watt. Same age then as Wagner is now. Remind me, how did the Watt thing turn out for Arizona anyway?

 

Certainly worth thinking about bringing in Wagner. Great player. But this isn't some sure thing anymore than the Watt thing was. He will likely cost a bunch, and he's old and getting older. IMO they don't do it. But certainly not impossible by any means. But Beane wouldn't back up the Brinks truck in a year when we're not going to have much cap money. It's not the way he works. If Wagner is willing to give a real discount for a shot at a title, it becomes more likely, I think. We'll see.

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, Rigotz said:

Signing Wagner and trading Edmunds would be a dream.

 

- Upgrade the ILB position.

- Get draft capital back for Edmunds.

- Edmunds fully gtd $12.7M 5th year option moves to the new team at no penalty.

- Groom a mid-to-late round ILB behind Wagner, an All-Pro.

 

 

Groom a mid-to-late round ILB and you're extremely likely to come up with a decent player.

 

In a position that McDermott clearly finds to be an extremely important one in his defense. A position that he's spent a #9 pick on in Carolina and a #16 on here in Buffalo. A mid-round guy isn't going to do it, unless you're spectacularly lucky. Which could happen, but counting on great luck isn't much of a strategy.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Thurman#1

[nucci]

7 hours ago, Motor26 said:

Where does he play? They run base nickel 98% of the time. And they are committed to Edmunds.

LB

[H2o]

Wagner will be 32 in June, but he hasn't really lost a step yet. I'm one who believes that Edmunds is not the long term answer. I'd be good with trading him, signing Wagner, and drafting Chad Muma in the 2nd Round to groom as the MLB in this defense. 

[delirious]

The Edmunds truthers out in full force doing their mental gymnastics for a guy that can't even hold Wagner's jock strap. 

 

[mannc]

5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah, the guy that we eventually have to stop to win a Super Bowl. If one of our core defensive players is that easily abused by the QB that will be our nemesis for the next decade, it's not a good long term fit. I'm at the point where any potential roster move we make on defense I'm asking "how does this player help us against the Chiefs?" For Edmunds the answer is "he doesn’t." To my eyes he is in fact a direct liability against the Chiefs. That doesn't mean he's a terrible player. Just a bad fit for that final barrier we need to cross.

 

For similar reasons I'd like to see us upgrade Levi Wallace this year. Edmunds and Wallace are good enough players against most teams, but not against the one team that has knocked us out of the playoffs in two consecutive years.

 

Good post…this is exactly why I don’t want Jordan Davis in the first…he does nothing to get us over the hump vs the Chiefs.

[SydneyBillsFan]

9 hours ago, zow2 said:

It’s great how every name player that hits the market we hear “make it happen” on this board.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure how we can squeeze him onto the TBD 153-man roster.

[Thurman#1]

55 minutes ago, delirious said:

The Edmunds truthers out in full force doing their mental gymnastics for a guy that can't even hold Wagner's jock strap. 

 

 

 

Yes they are out and doing their mental gymnastics. You're an excellent example.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

32 minutes ago, mannc said:

Good post…this is exactly why I don’t want Jordan Davis in the first…he does nothing to get us over the hump vs the Chiefs.

 

 

Basing a decision only on getting past the Chiefs is nuts. Doesn't make any sense. If we'd been better at stopping the run against Indy or Tennessee or the first Pats game we win one more game and play the Chiefs at home and drastically improve our chances without changing anything else. You bring in people who will make you a better team.

 

Beyond that, it ain't as if the Chiefs never run. They do. If Jordan Davis crunches up a run and changes a 3rd and 4 to a 3rd and 7, he's improving our chances against the Chiefs.

[mannc]

14 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Basing a decision only on getting past the Chiefs is nuts. Doesn't make any sense. If we'd been better at stopping the run against Indy or Tennessee or the first Pats game we win one more game and play the Chiefs at home and drastically improve our chances without changing anything else. You bring in people who will make you a better team.

 

Beyond that, it ain't as if the Chiefs never run. They do. If Jordan Davis crunches up a run and changes a 3rd and 4 to a 3rd and 7, he's improving our chances against the Chiefs.

Fine, but they can find guys in the third round (or in FA) who can do that quite well. This guy is not another Jeffrey Simmons.

Edited March 9, 2022 by mannc

[Solomon Grundy]

4 minutes ago, mannc said:

Fine, but they can find guys in the third round (or in FA) who can do that quite well. This guy is not another Jeffrey Simons.

I’d, honestly, would like to see them target Travis Jones in the 2nd. 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, H2o said:

Wagner will be 32 in June, but he hasn't really lost a step yet. I'm one who believes that Edmunds is not the long term answer. I'd be good with trading him, signing Wagner, and drafting Chad Muma in the 2nd Round to groom as the MLB in this defense. 

 

 

Personally, Wagner looks to me like he has lost a half step.

 

But assume he hasn't. Would that mean he won't by opening day?

 

As for Muma, I think he could easily become the next Preston Brown. There could maybe be a guy there with the traits that the Bills look for. Maybe. But maybe not. IMO Muma isn't the guy.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

48 minutes ago, delirious said:

The Edmunds truthers out in full force doing their mental gymnastics for a guy that can't even hold Wagner's jock strap. 

 

For one, we're stuck with his cap hit. So this already makes get rid of Edmunds people clueless.

 

If there was a way to upgrade Edmunds I'm pretty sure everyone would be on board with that. There just isn't an easy way to upgrade.

 

This isn't a situation where taking on $12 million in dead cap by releasing him makes us better.

 

When someone like me says try to extend Edmunds to a Milano like deal we can save cap and improve the current team to win a Super Bowl. 

[Thurman#1]

11 minutes ago, mannc said:

Fine, but they can find guys in the third round (or in FA) who can do that quite well. This guy is not another Jeffrey Simons.

 

 

I'm not against that. I'm not saying Davis or bust!

 

If they can find somebody who can do it later, I'd be thrilled. I haven't gone deep on space eaters.

 

But while Simmons is really good, he's not a space eater. He's not even a DT at this point, though he could be. But more of a penetrator, and not really a consistent two-gapper. And that's what the Bills need. IMO Davis is going to be very good at that.

 

But I'm not pounding the table for him or anything. I think we do need a two-gapper there. I have a general idea Davis is going to be a good one, but I could definitely be wrong. If the Bills want someone else, I'm fine with that.

[H2o]

3 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Personally, Wagner looks to me like he has lost a half step.

 

But assume he hasn't. Would that mean he won't by opening day?

 

As for Muma, I think he could easily become the next Preston Brown. There could maybe be a guy there with the traits that the Bills look for. Maybe. But maybe not. IMO Muma isn't the guy.

A Preston Brown comp for Chad Muma? Yeah, nah, they're not the same player. Muma actually profiles more so to Kuechly, athletically, than he does Preston Brown. Muma is more athletically gifted than Brown ever was, has instincts that can't be taught, and when he gets his hands on the ball carrier he brings them to the ground. This was evidenced by his NCAA leading 85 solo tackles. He got better every year. I encourage you to go watch some tape of the young man.

[Coach Tuesday]

What about Beane’s approach to his own draftees and free agency generally would lead anyone to think they’d consider cutting bait on Edmunds and signing Bobby Wagner?  It’s a waste of thought energy.

 

Wouldn’t be surprised if the Cowboys or Chiefs signed him tomorrow.

 

Beane doesn’t go after prized free agents, he just doesn’t.  The man has never had any credit card debt in his entire life - that’s who he is.  

[Niagara Dude]

10 hours ago, CDogg20 said:

Please make this happen. Please oh please

This could be a player Beane signs on a 2-3 year deal and then trades out Edmunds.  That gives him time to draft another LB and not have to worry about extending Edmunds this offseason to huge contract.  All depends what they think of Edmunds and do they want to invest a big contract into a player who has been good but not great so far in his career. Edmunds is still young enough to get to another level and maybe in another system used differently he reaches his true potential. There are some coaches and GM'S that love his size speed ratio. 

[H2o]

8 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Wouldn’t be surprised if the Cowboys or Chiefs signed him tomorrow.

Both the Cowboys and the Chiefs are in cap limbo more so than us with the impact players they need to get re-signed. I don't see it happening. It will also depend on what Wagner is chasing, $$$ or a another ring. He could end up somewhere like Denver with Russ, or maybe he and KJ Wright both sign with LV, or Miami may come knocking at his door, possibly AZ. He will have options, but I don't think either of those will be Dallas or KC reaching out to him. 

[delirious]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yes they are out and doing their mental gymnastics. You're an excellent example.

 

🤡

Hope springs eternal.... HE'S STILL YOUNG!1!1!1!!!!!111

Edited March 9, 2022 by delirious

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

Beane has stated several times he wants to make moves that make sense for now and the future. Signing a soon to be 32 year old LB who will most likely want at least a 4 year deal who won't come cheap doesn't seem like a good decision imo but I really like the player.

Edited March 9, 2022 by BuffaloBillsGospel

[DeltaDigital]

9 hours ago, Rigotz said:

Signing Wagner and trading Edmunds would be a dream.

 

- Upgrade the ILB position.

- Get draft capital back for Edmunds.

- Edmunds fully gtd $12.7M 5th year option moves to the new team at no penalty.

- Groom a mid-to-late round ILB behind Wagner, an All-Pro.

THIS is the move. Financially savvy, and a business decision. Window is open NOW. 

[Coach Tuesday]

20 minutes ago, H2o said:

Both the Cowboys and the Chiefs are in cap limbo more so than us with the impact players they need to get re-signed. I don't see it happening. It will also depend on what Wagner is chasing, $$$ or a another ring. He could end up somewhere like Denver with Russ, or maybe he and KJ Wright both sign with LV, or Miami may come knocking at his door, possibly AZ. He will have options, but I don't think either of those will be Dallas or KC reaching out to him. 

 

Las Vegas also makes a ton of sense.  Point is, zero chance Beane (i) cuts bait on Edmunds and (ii) signs a prized FA linebacker in his 30s.  Zero.

[SoCal Deek]

This move makes way too much sense. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

This move makes way too much sense. 

Makes no sense at all.