Ken Dorsey - would he choose OC here or leave to be Daboll's OC?

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Did Josh ascend to elite status under Dabol/Dorsey, as opposed to the losing OCs Beane brought before Dabol,who were replaced in short order. You want to diminish what Dabol/Dorsey accomplished, where we we should have advanced to a home Championship game if not for Sean's epic brain freeze the last 13 seconds, go right ahead. Don't prioritize what makes Josh comfortable with a playcaller. Taking any leftover failed OC will be fine. Some of the people just want to be arbitrary. 

 

It wasn't "arbitrary"--I was simply pointing out your dramatics.  You posted something that made no sense, then you retracted it after I pointed that out.

 

Also, the Bills did advance to the AFCC game under Daboll/Dorsey...last year.  And got blown out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bangarang]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloFan68 said:

I haven’t heard about us interviewing anyone for the OC position so I’m waiting to hear we’re promoting Dorsey to OC then I hope we officially hire Jordan Palmer as the QB coach. I figure this would be a perfect case for Josh. 
Let’s Go Buffalo!!!!!

We still have to interview an outside minority candidate before Dorsey can officially be named OC. 
 

Also, people need to let the Jordan Palmer dream die. It’s not going to happen. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Bangarang

[Einstein]

58 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

It may not result in killing our chances,but wouldn't you want to make the most important player on your team and arguably the best QB in football,comfortable with his playcaller if you want to maximize our chances. If Josh has expressed his preference on an OC, Beane has a mandate to get him. It's not as if there's multiple teams vying for him It's the Giants,  the worst team in football by most accounts. 

 

With all due respect to Allen, he only knows what he knows.

 

He likes who he has been surrounded with. But he doesnt know what other experts are out there.

 

I am hoping the Bills make a strong push for Doug Pederson. He won a SB with the Bears 3rd string QB. That is beyond impressive.

[HamptonBillsfan]

7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It wasn't "arbitrary"--I was simply pointing out your dramatics.  You posted something that made no sense, then you retracted it after I pointed that out.

 

Also, the Bills did advance to the AFCC game under Daboll/Dorsey...last year.  And got blown out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why is everything a gotcha moment with you. I gave my opinion about Beane not retaining Dorsey and how it would be a negative. I didn’t retract anything. You're in no position to call anything ridiculous. You have your opinion,that's all.

[HamptonBillsfan]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

With all due respect to Allen, he only knows what he knows.

 

He likes who he has been surrounded with. But he doesnt know what other experts are out there.

 

I am hoping the Bills make a strong push for Doug Pederson. He won a SB with the Bears 3rd string QB. That is beyond impressive.

And then was fired shortly after for running that franchise into the ground and alienating the fanbase because he thought he invented modern offensive football strategy. By the way, why hasn't Doug gotten a sniff of OC or HC jobs since being fired? Could be his head is to big for the room.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Then why post that it will?

 

Getting Dorsey simply because he's a guy the QB wants has nothing to do with their chances of getting to the SB.

 

What if Dorsey sucks as an actual Coordinator?--worse than Daboll, who couldn't, with Josh, get them to the SB?

So you think a lack of offense is the reason the Bills aren’t playing today?  Seriously?

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

So you think a lack of offense is the reason the Bills aren’t playing today?  Seriously?

 

no.

[frostbitmic]

IMO, the Giants will use their two first round picks to move up for Kenny Pickett - QB - Pitt.

 

New GM, new HC, often means new QB. If I'm Schoen and Daboll, I don't want my career hanging on Daniel Jones.

[Punching Bag]

22 hours ago, Doc said:

 

I agree.  But we're all pretty much in agreement that they have offered him the OC position, and he obviously hasn't taken it.  So unless passing game coordinator is the same as OC, the Bills can't block him leaving.

 

Diaboll may have caused Jiants to be fined / lose draft picks.

 

By stating "Daboll wanted to be a package deal with Ken Dorsey."  he is giving ammunition to anyone stating minority candidates have no chance of being selected as required by rule.

[Mr. WEO]

15 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

 I gave my opinion about Beane not retaining Dorsey and how it would be a negative. I didn’t retract anything. 

 

2 hours ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Beane should head the words of Josh when he gives his heartfelt endorsement of Dorsey. No excuses will be accepted for not signing this guy. Don't kill our chances to go in the future. 

 

1 hour ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

It may not result in killing our chances,

 

 

One more time...the ridiculous part wasn't the suggestion that the Bills should consider who Josh prefers as OC, it was the suggestion that if they didn't, and hired someone else, this would kill the Bills chances of making it to the SB.

 

 

It's not a "gothca".  It's what you actually said.

 

[Punching Bag]

3 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

IMO, the Giants will use their two first round picks to move up for Kenny Pickett - QB - Pitt.

 

New GM, new HC, often means new QB. If I'm Schoen and Daboll, I don't want my career hanging on Daniel Jones.

 

Likely Schoen and Daboll have told Mara and others in front office that it would take time and they will use Jones as QB while they work on building lines and clearing up cap issue.

[frostbitmic]

2 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

Daboll took this job in large part because he loves Daniel Jones.

 

The Giants are not drafting a QB in Round 1 with either pick. 

 

Try again.

That is your opinion, not fact.

[Bangarang]

3 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

Your opinion is backed up by absolutely nothing.

 

Fact - Bill Belichick loved Daniel Jones coming out of the 2019 Draft.

 

Fact - Brian Daboll loves Daniel Jones.

 

 

The irony here is fun

[Doc]

14 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

What's at play? This is just fodder on this board. You don’t know that Dabol has reached out to Dorsey. My point to all the conspiracy theorists is Josh wants this guy so Beane has a responsibility to the best player on our team to get him. Why are you deluding yourself into accepting his departure as no big deal. Accept whatever happens,accept impotence. Accept mediocrity.

 

I'm sure Beane is doing everything he can to keep Dorsey, assuming they want him to be OC.  But he can't make players or coaches sign with the team.  And no amount of hand-wringing or complaining by us will change anything.

 

12 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Actually I do think someone could mess this up.  Remember the jags canning their assistant coaches several years ago, then discovering they had to pay an extra year of salary because of how the contract was written, and then firing their GC?  I do.

 

Your view on the NFL rejecting the contract out of hand  is similarly misguided. Ever hear of a savings clause?  What about a clause that allows for promotion as of right upon Rooney satisfaction ?
 

And, because the Bills seek the right to promote against one’s will doesn’t mean they would exercise that right.  Ergo, your Rooney problem is feigned. Frankly, in my view, the whole idea of insulating against a situation like this makes perfect sense.  Wanna be Josh’s QB coach?  Gotta potentially sacrifice some marketability as insulation in case the guy above you leaves and we then wish to explore continuity. 

 

Making a mistake in how much you pay someone isn't against any rule.  It's just foolish.  And that's far different than every lawyer who has ever worked on coaching contract somehow failing to realize they could have locked-up coaches beforehand. 

 

The Bills obviously wanted Dorsey to be their next OC, hence the promotion last off-season.  You're telling me no one thought to offer Dorsey a contract that you're proposing?  Doubtful at best.  Even ignoring the Rooney Rule, there might be reluctance on Dorsey's part, and the Bills might realize over the course of the season that he's not OC material.  Why would either party lock themselves into that kind of contract?

 

6 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

Translation:

 

"You just caught me in a blatant lie"

 

 

Nice admission.

 

I may have gotten that wrong.  My apologies.

[Einstein]

34 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

And then was fired shortly after for running that franchise into the ground and alienating the fanbase because he thought he invented modern offensive football strategy. By the way, why hasn't Doug gotten a sniff of OC or HC jobs since being fired? Could be his head is to big for the room.

 

1) He didnt run anything into the ground. He was fired due to a power struggle between him and Howie Roseman.

 

2) Hasn't sniffed a job? He is literally interviewing for a Head Coach job this week lol. 

[stinky finger]

17 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

What irony?

 

Everything points to Daboll liking Daniel Jones.

 

Not 1 single thing points to Daboll not liking Daniel Jones. 

You may be right on why Daboll chose the Giants.

 

You say he took it in “large part” because he loves DJ and “fact” that he indeed does. 
 

Can you provide proof of this as fact?

 

Or just speculating? 

[SectionC3]

22 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I'm sure Beane is doing everything he can to keep Dorsey, assuming they want him to be OC.  But he can't make players or coaches sign with the team.  And no amount of hand-wringing or complaining by us will change anything.

 

 

Making a mistake in how much you pay someone isn't against any rule.  It's just foolish.  And that's far different than every lawyer who has ever worked on coaching contract somehow failing to realize they could have locked-up coaches beforehand. 

 

The Bills obviously wanted Dorsey to be their next OC, hence the promotion last off-season.  You're telling me no one thought to offer Dorsey a contract that you're proposing?  Doubtful at best.  Even ignoring the Rooney Rule, there might be reluctance on Dorsey's part, and the Bills might realize over the course of the season that he's not OC material.  Why would either party lock themselves into that kind of contract?

 

 

I may have gotten that wrong.  My apologies.

You give way, way too much credit to the lawyers these teams hire.  The people the bills have have are far from the cream of the crop. 
 

And, re the first paragraph,  this isn’t about making anyone sign.  It’s about making sure that, when someone does sign (like Dorsey did several yards ago, when he had little leverage), that the team is protected in a situation such as this one.  
 

bottom line here: some rando on an internet message board came up with a plan to avoid the mess in which the bills now find themselves.  They’d be wise to try to implement the tool in the future.  

[Bangarang]

25 minutes ago, FFadpecr said:

 

What irony?

 

Everything points to Daboll liking Daniel Jones.

 

Not 1 single thing points to Daboll not liking Daniel Jones. 

You play real fast and lose with the word fact. And now you’re moving the goal posts. 
 

There’s a pretty large difference between Daboll loving DJ, liking him, or not being deterred by him being on the roster. 
 

The reality is you don’t know how Daboll really feels about DJ, no matter how much you pretend otherwise. 

[Doc]

20 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

You give way, way too much credit to the lawyers these teams hire.  The people the bills have have are far from the cream of the crop. 
 

And, re the first paragraph,  this isn’t about making anyone sign.  It’s about making sure that, when someone does sign (like Dorsey did several yards ago, when he had little leverage), that the team is protected in a situation such as this one.  
 

bottom line here: some rando on an internet message board came up with a plan to avoid the mess in which the bills now find themselves.  They’d be wise to try to implement the tool in the future.  

 

You know any contacts at the NFL?  The Bills?  Might be worth pitching your idea.

[Mango]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Remember, he was the one trashing Josh until his epic playoff performance.  Now Jones is a great QB.  LOL!

 

 

He also has two different posts claiming that the Bills v KC game was rigged for entertainment. 
 

At this rate we are 5 offseason posts away from him organizing a raid on local

pizza places to save the children. 

[purple haze]

1 hour ago, FFadpecr said:

 

What irony?

 

Everything points to Daboll liking Daniel Jones.

 

Not 1 single thing points to Daboll not liking Daniel Jones. 

What points to you believing Daboll likes Jones?   He might like the Giants owners/organizational structure.  He might like GM Joe Schoen.  He might like that the Giants have two picks in the top 10.    None of that has to do with Jones.  
 

Daboll might like Jones too, but there are other reasons he might have taken the job in spite of Daniel Jones presence.

 

[TPS]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I'm sure Beane is doing everything he can to keep Dorsey, assuming they want him to be OC.  But he can't make players or coaches sign with the team.  And no amount of hand-wringing or complaining by us will change anything.

I'm sure Josh is also doing everything he can to keep Dorsey here as the next OC, which may be the most important factor.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, TPS said:

I'm sure Josh is also doing everything he can to keep Dorsey here as the next OC, which may be the most important factor.

 

Definitely.  But again, they can only do so much if he's intent on leaving.

[HamptonBillsfan]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

 

 

One more time...the ridiculous part wasn't the suggestion that the Bills should consider who Josh prefers as OC, it was the suggestion that if they didn't, and hired someone else, this would kill the Bills chances of making it to the SB.

 

 

It's not a "gothca".  It's what you actually said.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

 

 

One more time...the ridiculous part wasn't the suggestion that the Bills should consider who Josh prefers as OC, it was the suggestion that if they didn't, and hired someone else, this would kill the Bills chances of making it to the SB.

 

 

It's not a "gothca".  It's what you actually said.

 

Since you insist on calling my assertion "ridiculous " without the courtesy of offering a legitimate reason,I can only infer that you're trying to insult me. Let me tell you,in this my final installment in this tedious back and forth, why it's not ridiculous. Since 1994 when the Bills went to the SB,they've had numerous OCs. 28 years of losing and being the whipping boy of the AFCE. Now we have a team that has some talent, if you don't have quality playcalling, why should anyone expect better results. Dorsey has been at the side of Dabol and has Josh's trust. He should provide continuity,not to mention the skill players all want him. If you prefer a failed OC off the scrap heap,good luck.

[HamptonBillsfan]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

1) He didnt run anything into the ground. He was fired due to a power struggle between him and Howie Roseman.

 

2) Hasn't sniffed a job? He is literally interviewing for a Head Coach job this week lol. 

Listen, I understand you like Doug and what he did with Foles the SB year was nothing if not miraculous. His subsequent years were bad and as a consequence they had to offload their 1st rd QB and Foles. Besides why would he come to Buffalo to be Sean's OC That the formula for disaster. 

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Since you insist on calling my assertion "ridiculous " without the courtesy of offering a legitimate reason,I can only infer that you're trying to insult me. Let me tell you,in this my final installment in this tedious back and forth, why it's not ridiculous. Since 1994 when the Bills went to the SB,they've had numerous OCs. 28 years of losing and being the whipping boy of the AFCE. Now we have a team that has some talent, if you don't have quality playcalling, why should anyone expect better results. Dorsey has been at the side of Dabol and has Josh's trust. He should provide continuity,not to mention the skill players all want him. If you prefer a failed OC off the scrap heap,good luck.

 

This is not about my preference. Or 1994, or 28 years of losing.  Or insulting you. 

 

It's about claiming that without the hiring of Dorsey  the Bills chances of making the SB are "killed".  Sorry, that's a ridiculous take.  So is your claim that only Dorsey can provide "quality playcalling" going forward.   No one else has made such a claim for obvious reasons.

 

The "legitimate reason" is that there you can't just  assume all you have about Dorsey's skill as an OC.  I'm just pointing this out. 

 

 

 

 

[Einstein]

3 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Listen, I understand you like Doug and what he did with Foles the SB year was nothing if not miraculous.

 

Again, that is NOT what happened.

 

He was fired due to a power struggle between him and Howie Roseman. It was seen as a surprise firing.

 

3 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

His subsequent years were bad

 

You realize that Pederson went to THREE playoff games, in two separate years, AFTER the Super Bowl year... right?

 

He had 1 bad year.

 

 

[HamptonBillsfan]

16 minutes ago, Buffalo619 said:

First time play caller with team on the verge of Super Bowl is a big risk for Mcd to take. I’d suspect they look at other options and keep Dorsey as final option if all others fail. 
 

Its a hot job. Better then some head coaching positions. There is plenty of options out there. Look for Nagy, Chula, Chud, Childress, Garrett as top candidates. 

All scrap heap,failed HCs and OCs. Childress,Garrett,those two kill your argument right off the bat. Again our HOF QB wants Dorsey and trusts him. Means nothing right.

[Doc]

I'm starting to warm up to Pederson.  You're looking at retread OCs or taking a chance on an up-and-comer.  Pederson has won a SB.  The only question is he's a WCO guy and can Josh do that and/or can Pederson be an E-P guy?

 

On the flip side, if there's a guy available who won the SB as a DC, I'd take him as well.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Doc

[HamptonBillsfan]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo619 said:

Not much really. It comes down to McD and Beane s decision .   Garret and Childress are still very respected coaches in a small nfl circle.  I expect they’ll do their due diligence and pick the best candidate. 
 

Garrett was terrible with Dak, got fired in season by the lowly Giants. Childress was bad with Minn and has never established himself as a winner. Remember me touting Dorsey. He's going to be good. He was instrumental in making Josh the best in the business. 

[Einstein]

10 minutes ago, Doc said:

I'm starting to warm up to Pederson.  You're looking at retread OCs or taking a chance on an up-and-comer.  Pederson has won a SB. 

 

On the flip side, if there's a guy available who won the SB as a DC, I'd take him as well.

 

Yes.

 

To me, he is THE choice.

 

Four top 12 offenses despite having Nick Foles, Alex Smith, and Carson Wentz as his QB's. 

[SectionC3]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

You know any contacts at the NFL?  The Bills?  Might be worth pitching your idea.

Believe it or not, yes, I do.   But what their GC’s office does is up to Russ Brandon’s brother and his staff.  
 

Also, you can save your condescension for the other board.  I’m sorry that you’re out of your element on this particular issue.  But it’s not a reason to be rude.  

23 minutes ago, Doc said:

I'm starting to warm up to Pederson.  You're looking at retread OCs or taking a chance on an up-and-comer.  Pederson has won a SB.  The only question is he's a WCO guy and can Josh do that and/or can Pederson be an E-P guy?

 

On the flip side, if there's a guy available who won the SB as a DC, I'd take him as well.

I don’t know if pederson fits the culture here for a variety of reasons.  PSE has had enough problems with sexual misconduct, and isn’t Peterson a guy who had an affair with a subordinate at a previous stop?  
 

not sure I want to get away from EP, either.  But if he can run EP, and if they can live with a guy of pederson’s background, I am all for a hire like this one. 

[Doc]

4 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

Believe it or not, yes, I do.   But what their GC’s office does is up to Russ Brandon’s brother and his staff.  
 

Also, you can save your condescension for the other board.  I’m sorry that you’re out of your element on this particular issue.  But it’s not a reason to be rude. 

 

Condescension?  Look, if you think you're the first person to come up with this idea and it could help the Bills in the future...
 

But seriously, if you have a chance, run it by Gregg Brandon.  I'd be curious to hear what he thinks.

 

4 minutes ago, SectionC3 said:

I don’t know if pederson fits the culture here for a variety of reasons.  PSE has had enough problems with sexual misconduct, and isn’t Peterson a guy who had an affair with a subordinate at a previous stop?  
 

not sure I want to get away from EP, either.  But if he can run EP, and if they can live with a guy of pederson’s background, I am all for a hire like this one. 

 

A quick search showed allegations of an affair while in KC, but nothing was substantiated.  But the offensive system will be important.

[Special K]

43 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

Garrett was terrible with Dak, got fired in season by the lowly Giants. Childress was bad with Minn and has never established himself as a winner. Remember me touting Dorsey. He's going to be good. He was instrumental in making Josh the best in the business. 

 

If the decision is between a bunch of retreads who run old school offenses, or a young innovative offensive mind who understands the direction NFL offenses are headed, give me the young mind please.

[Mumrahel]

7 hours ago, Doc said:

 

The Giants won't be drafting a QB this year or next because they think Daboll can fix him and will be picking up his 5th year option (for 2023).  That's obvious and moot.  But while Daboll may or may not love Jones, the Giants will be picking a QB in 2024 and Daboll and Dorsey, if he goes there, will be looking for a new job.  Again Jones' problem are mental and having to learn a new system won't help him a lot.  Meanwhile the Giants are way over the cap and will have to shed players.

I wish the Giants could hire you, you seem to be able to predict the future.  Let me clue you in on something about Daniel Jones, his problems were not mental, mentally he's as sharp as they come, postal abilities above average and mechanics A1.  The problem with Daniel Jones was the worse Oline in the league couples with the worse Offensive Scheme in the league, he could not overcome both of them.  No QB would have been able to.  Jason Garrett's offense indirectly is the reason Gettleman and Judge no longer have a job and why Schoen and Daboll got hired.  

 

I'm here to see what you guys had to say about Dorsey but I just replied here just to bring some clarity to Jones and so called mental issues.  

[BigAl2526]

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me for Dorey to leave Buffalo.  It's not just the difference between the Buffalo and NY Giants offense, (and starting QB) and the likelihood that Buffalo will be a playoff caliber team for several years, it's the fact that in NY he would always be the second ranked offensive minded guy on the coaching staff.  If Dorsey is confident, he has what it takes to be the offensive guru of his team, it seems to me as if he would be less comfortable having an offensive minded head coach looking over his shoulder.  If Dorsey is not that confident, and wants to be able to go to his head coach for advice ono drawing up plays, I'm not sure I want him for my OC.

[HamptonBillsfan]

44 minutes ago, Special K said:

 

If the decision is between a bunch of retreads who run old school offenses, or a young innovative offensive mind who understands the direction NFL offenses are headed, give me the young mind please.

Well said Mr. K. 100%

[TheyCallMeAndy]

48 minutes ago, Special K said:

 

If the decision is between a bunch of retreads who run old school offenses, or a young innovative offensive mind who understands the direction NFL offenses are headed, give me the young mind please.

100% agree. 
 

McDs OCs hires thus far have been underwhelming. Hopefully they don’t cheap out on Dorsey. 

[Codyny13]

11 hours ago, nucci said:

it's not a lateral move. He's not the OC here. Daboll could also make him Asst HC

The point is if he was the o coordinator. It’s a hypothetical.

[Richard Noggin]

6 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

100% agree. 
 

McDs OCs hires thus far have been underwhelming. Hopefully they don’t cheap out on Dorsey. 

So the guy whose offensive players LOVE him and the trust he places in them, who is now HC of a big market franchise...that guy replacing an admittedly uninspiring hire after just one season (Dennison was hired during an offseason when no one wanted to come to Buffalo) means "McDs OC hires thus far have been underwhelming"?

Edited January 31, 2022 by Richard Noggin