The Good News and The Bad News

[BillsFanForever19]

The Good News:

 

 

- When we have Daryl Williams at RG and Spencer Brown at RT - the Offensive Line is solid. Not amazing, but solid. The offense performs at a much higher level with that stability on the Line. Getting them back and in the right spots will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

- When we have Star Lotulelei on the D-Line, the entire Defense performs better. This has been obvious in practically every game he's been on the field this season. His ability to eat up Lineman consistently makes everyone play a little more free.

 

- We were down Tremaine Edmunds. And outside of a handful of plays here and there or a game here or there when everything is working around him, AJ Klein is a huge dropoff. Getting back Star and Edmunds will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

 

The Bad News:

 

 

- With both Star and Brown's personal decisions, there's no telling when we'll get either back. Brown will be out for at least the Saints game. Star could theoretically come back for New Orleans, but it will be less than 14 days and who's to say he'll be up to it.

 

- Both could easily be put back on the list again for at least 10 days for a simple exposure.

 

- Tremaine Edmunds seems like he's on the right path. But with a Hammy, he could go back down at any time.

 

- McDermott's decision to insist on banging a square peg into a round hole by consistently putting out Cody Ford at RG and Daryl Williams at RT with Spencer Brown out doesn't seem like it's going to change. All logic pointed to not doing that again today and he did it. Sure enough, it looked like garbage, just as it has in the past. So I'm not convinced he's going to change this way of thinking if he didn't after seeing it a couple times already. But for the love of God - put Williams at Guard and try something else at Tackle. Please!

 

- We have ZERO depth on this team. Apparently, Ryan Bates, Tommy Doyle, and Jamil Douglas are so bad that McDermott refuses to give them a chance at RT - even though Daryl Williams is a turnstile there while being a decent Guard. AJ Klein is not good. Period. Asking him to fill in at LB outside of in a pinch is always going to bite us. We're also nowhere with Harrison Phillips and Vernon Butler if something happens to Star or Oliver.

 

 

All in all, when we have our best guys out there - we're at least competitive with good teams at full strength like the Titans and Chiefs. Today we were just too short handed and made terrible personnel decisions on top of it. We may have still lost had we had all 3 guys we were missing and had McDermott not continue to make boneheaded O-Line personnel decisions. But it wouldn't have looked like it looked today otherwise.

Edited November 21, 2021 by BillsFanForever19

[CEN-CAL17]

This is so beyond a player here or there…..

 

I just can’t wait to hear McDs excuses etc….

 

*Gotta look at the film.

*Everyone has to do their part, coaches too.

*Theres a few plays I know Josh would like to have back.

*I gotta do better.

*Cant turn the ball over.

 

Coach why was it hard to stop the run? Would an extra DL or extra LB help, why stay in the Nickel knowing they were gonna run? From the outside it looks like no adjustments were made.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by CEN-CAL17

[Eastport bills]

1 minute ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

The Good News:

 

 

- When we have Daryl Williams at RG and Spencer Brown at RT - the Offensive Line is solid. Not amazing, but solid. The offense performs at a much higher level with that stability on the Line. Getting them back and in the right spots will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

- When we have Star Lotulelei on the D-Line, the entire Defense performs better. This has been obvious in practically every game he's been on the field this season. His ability to eat up Lineman consistently makes everyone play a little more free.

 

- We were down Tremaine Edmunds. And outside of a handful of plays here and there or a game here or there when everything is working around him, AJ Klein is a huge dropoff. Getting back Star and Edmunds will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

 

The Bad News:

 

 

- With both Star and Brown's personal decisions, there's no telling when we'll get either back. Brown will be out for at least the Saints game. Star could theoretically come back for New Orleans, but it will be less than 14 days and who's to say he'll be up to it.

 

- Both could easily be put back on the list again for at least 10 days for a simple exposure.

 

- Tremaine Edmunds seems like he's on the right path. But with a Hammy, he could go back down at any time.

 

- McDermott's decision to insist on banging a square peg into a round hole by consistently putting out Cody Ford at RG and Daryl Williams at RT with Spencer Brown out doesn't seem like it's going to change. All logic pointed to not doing that again today and he did it. Sure enough, it looked like garbage, just as it has in the past. So I'm not convinced he's going to change this way of thinking. But for the love of God - put Williams at Guard and try something else at Tackle. Please!

 

- We have ZERO depth on this team. Apparently, Ryan Bates, Tommy Doyle, and Jamil Douglas are so bad that McDermott refuses to give them a chance at RT - even though Daryl Williams is a turnstile there while being a decent Guard. AJ Klein is not good. Period. Asking him to fill in at LB outside of in a pinch is always going to bite us. We're also nowhere with Harrison Phillips and Vernon Butler.

You make a good "glass half full case". Unfortunately the fly in the ointment is this team has problems with discipline ( silly penalties and fundamentals(tackling and drops) I think they are not buttoned up enough,as they are playing now, to go the distance on the road in the playoffs. Maybe they turn it around in Dec.

[BillsFanForever19]

5 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

This is so beyond a player here or there…..

 

I just can’t wait to hear McDs excuses etc….

 

*Gotta look at the film.

*Everyone has to do their part, coaches too.

*Theres a few plays I know Josh would like to have back.

*I gotta do better.

*Cant turn the ball over.

 

Coach why was it hard to stop the run? Would an extra DL or extra LB help, why stay in the Nickel knowing they were gonna run? From the outside it looks like no adjustments were made.

 

A player here or there is greatly underestimating the importance of having Brown at RT and Williams at RG instead of Ford at RG and Williams at RT - as well as Star at 1-Tech instead of Vernon Butler/Harrison Phillips and Tremaine Edmunds instead of AJ Klein. These are MASSIVE dropoffs that change the way both sides of the team play entirely. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by BillsFanForever19

[KOKBILLS]

6 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

This is so beyond a player here or there…..

 

I just can’t wait to hear McDs excuses etc….

 

*Gotta look at the film.

*Everyone has to do their part, coaches too.

*Theres a few plays I know Josh would like to have back.

*I gotta do better.

*Cant turn the ball over.

 

Coach why was it hard to stop the run? Would an extra DL or extra LB help, why stay in the Nickel knowing they were gonna run? From the outside it looks like no adjustments were made.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed...

 

They had zero injuries...zero at QB...RB...WR (well Cole a bit but he looked OK)...TE...LT...DE...S...or CB...None...

 

They got stomped...Trampled...

 

McD is going to have to eat this one...It's on him big time...

[97bills]

Im here for the good news!! 

[ticketssince61]

It is a little odd that our excuse is that our late 3rd round development OT did not play.

[Evian]

I don't see ANY good news. The Bills are a built like a soft warm weather team that can't stop the run or run the ball. 

 

Soft teams put up big points against bad teams and get beaten by physical teams. That is the Bills in a nutshell.

 

[Success]

I think what alarmed me today was the team giving up.

 

There was no heart in either unit - but watching that D was a head-shaker.  When the Colts had 2nd and goal on the 10, I felt like I lost track of the missed, half-hearted arm tackles. The lack of effort has rarely been so visible.

 

That's a real issue, heading into a tough & crucial stretch.  That's coaching.  I love McD - but it's not a good sign when a team gives up like that.

 

[chaccof]

This whole season has felt a lot like 1989 to me - Bills come into the season after losing the AFC Championship game (in a season when no one had the Bills doing anything), the team is stocked to the gills on offense (and had a terrific OL which the current teams lacks as many have noted) and then they just sort of went through the motions to a 9-7 season and lost in the divisional round to Cleveland.  Maybe '21 is that season for this team, they went further than expected last year, read their press, and figured beating good teams would just magically happen.  And so we can hope that next year is the year that the team licks their wounds, gets serious and goes on a nice run like the '90 Bills team did - they just kept their mouths shut and played terrific football.  Here's hoping.....

Edited November 21, 2021 by chaccof
misspelling

[97bills]

14 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

This is so beyond a player here or there…..

 

I just can’t wait to hear McDs excuses etc….

 

*Gotta look at the film.

*Everyone has to do their part, coaches too.

*Theres a few plays I know Josh would like to have back.

*I gotta do better.

*Cant turn the ball over.

 

Coach why was it hard to stop the run? Would an extra DL or extra LB help, why stay in the Nickel knowing they were gonna run? From the outside it looks like no adjustments were made.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spot on, people that think just because we had a few players out is why we took one on the Chin, think again this team just isn’t that good.  

[BillsFanForever19]

3 minutes ago, ticketssince61 said:

It is a little odd that our excuse is that our late 3rd round development OT did not play.

 

It's more than that. When he's in, we get solid play out of the RT position. When he's in, Daryl plays RG and handles it pretty well. When he's NOT in, Daryl handles the RT position poorly and Cody Ford at RG is a complete turnstile. 

 

I'm not here saying we definitely would have won if the O-Line was correct and we had Star and Edmunds instead of Klein and Butler. But to look at how we've performed at full strength and how we performed today and say it doesn't matter is foolish.

[starrymessenger]

The good news is that after Jax and now Indy we know what the bad news is. Whether the coaches and players can now suck it up and make the necessary adjustments (especially with guys coming back) is probably a 50/50 proposition at this point. If they can’t do that some major changes at both levels should be made.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

27 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

The Good News:

 

 

- When we have Daryl Williams at RG and Spencer Brown at RT - the Offensive Line is solid. Not amazing, but solid. The offense performs at a much higher level with that stability on the Line. Getting them back and in the right spots will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

- When we have Star Lotulelei on the D-Line, the entire Defense performs better. This has been obvious in practically every game he's been on the field this season. His ability to eat up Lineman consistently makes everyone play a little more free.

 

- We were down Tremaine Edmunds. And outside of a handful of plays here and there or a game here or there when everything is working around him, AJ Klein is a huge dropoff. Getting back Star and Edmunds will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

 

The Bad News:

 

 

- With both Star and Brown's personal decisions, there's no telling when we'll get either back. Brown will be out for at least the Saints game. Star could theoretically come back for New Orleans, but it will be less than 14 days and who's to say he'll be up to it.

 

- Both could easily be put back on the list again for at least 10 days for a simple exposure.

 

- Tremaine Edmunds seems like he's on the right path. But with a Hammy, he could go back down at any time.

 

- McDermott's decision to insist on banging a square peg into a round hole by consistently putting out Cody Ford at RG and Daryl Williams at RT with Spencer Brown out doesn't seem like it's going to change. All logic pointed to not doing that again today and he did it. Sure enough, it looked like garbage, just as it has in the past. So I'm not convinced he's going to change this way of thinking if he didn't after seeing it a couple times already. But for the love of God - put Williams at Guard and try something else at Tackle. Please!

 

- We have ZERO depth on this team. Apparently, Ryan Bates, Tommy Doyle, and Jamil Douglas are so bad that McDermott refuses to give them a chance at RT - even though Daryl Williams is a turnstile there while being a decent Guard. AJ Klein is not good. Period. Asking him to fill in at LB outside of in a pinch is always going to bite us. We're also nowhere with Harrison Phillips and Vernon Butler if something happens to Star or Oliver.

 

 

All in all, when we have our best guys out there - we're at least competitive with good teams at full strength like the Titans and Chiefs. Today we were just too short handed and made terrible personnel decisions on top of it. We may have still lost had we had all 3 guys we were missing and had McDermott not continue to make boneheaded O-Line personnel decisions. But it wouldn't have looked like it looked today otherwise.

i don’t disagree with the personnel analysis generally, but the oline seemed to actually play well today. Not the sort of horrible performance against Jax, and they did well on outsize zone runs and sweeps. 

[Let's Go Buffalo]

I'm not going to lie, this loss sucks....but at least it's not the last game of the season for us. We still have plenty of games left, and we have two ways we can go from here....and I truly believe we can get back on track. I've been a Bills fan for close to 40 years, and like many of you have seen seasons end on a bitter note. It's not the end this time thankfully, so let's go get it!

[Bigantall]

37 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

This is so beyond a player here or there…..

 

I just can’t wait to hear McDs excuses etc….

 

*Gotta look at the film.

*Everyone has to do their part, coaches too.

*Theres a few plays I know Josh would like to have back.

*I gotta do better.

*Cant turn the ball over.

 

Coach why was it hard to stop the run? Would an extra DL or extra LB help, why stay in the Nickel knowing they were gonna run? From the outside it looks like no adjustments were made.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's my whole contention they do not know how to make adjustments when something isn't working maybe Leslie is meant to be a coordinator after all

[CEN-CAL17]

1 minute ago, Bigantall said:

That's my whole contention they do not know how to make adjustments when something isn't working maybe Leslie is meant to be a coordinator after all

They should have had a big man package. I wanna see Oliver at DE on strong side.

 

Oliver, Butler, Harrison, Obada, Hughes

 

5-2-4…… Hughes can drop back/out from time to time. 
 

Not a single team is scared of this offense or defense…. The film has exploited our weaknesses 

 

 

 

[Pitch left]

28 minutes ago, Success said:

I think what alarmed me today was the team giving up.

 

There was no heart in either unit - but watching that D was a head-shaker.  When the Colts had 2nd and goal on the 10, I felt like I lost track of the missed, half-hearted arm tackles. The lack of effort has rarely been so visible.

 

That's a real issue, heading into a tough & crucial stretch.  That's coaching.  I love McD - but it's not a good sign when a team gives up like that.

 

So that was the point the Jax player was making -- somethings not right with the dynamics here - culture, top talent, etc ... how do you perform so badly in 2 of 3 games ? 

[RiotAct]

28 minutes ago, chaccof said:

This whole season has felt a lot like 1989 to me - Bills come into the season after losing the AFC Championship game (in a season when no one had the Bills doing anything), the team is stocked to the gills on offense (and had a terrific OL which the current teams lacks as many have noted) and then they just sort of went through the motions to a 9-7 season and lost in the divisional round to Cleveland.  Maybe '21 is that season for this team, they went further than expected last year, read their press, and figured beating good teams would just magically happen.  And so we can hope that next year is the year that the team licks their wounds, gets serious and goes on a nice run like the '90 Bills team did - they just kept their mouths shut and played terrific football.  Here's hoping.....

It’s always “next year”.

[Nihilarian]

The good news...the 8-2 Titans lost to the 1-8 Texans 😆Josh Allen managed to stay healthy and the offense looks to live or die with his performance. 

 

 

The Bad news is Buffalo isn't going to take the division and perhaps might not even make the playoffs in 2021.

 

Can't run the ball...can't stop the run. The offensive line sucks moose arse and one player on that line shouldn't make or break a 5 player line...on either side! 

 

The Buffalo defense isn't as good as the #1 stat would suggest. 

 

The Patriots take the division with a rookie at QB and not because of that QB...but rather despite him. Mostly because the rest of the team is solid. They can run and stop the run! Their offensive line is decent. Their coaching is solid with actually making adjustments during games to counter what the other team is doing. 

 

I wonder if the Bills fans that still think it's a "passing league" will think twice about that after this Colts game...Taylor, 32 carries 185 yards 4 rushing TDs, 5 TDs for a lead running back with a good offensive line...probably not.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Nihilarian

[Milanos Milano]

8 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

It’s always “next year”.

Always, never changes. We just aren’t drafting well enough. 

[Nihilarian]

5 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said:

Always, never changes. We just aren’t drafting well enough. 

The Bills addressed their perceived biggest need for pass rushers with those first two picks. 

 

Some of the offensive line players from last season that were resigned simply aren't playing nearly as well this season. The Bills need some really good OGs.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Bad news is Beane and McD pissed away a SB year window with Allen on his rookie deal. Beane should have made moves to the DL and OL early in the year. Instead he stood pat protecting his precious draft picks in 2022. 

They should have been all in like the Rams. Now they will have to scramble to even win the division.

[jkeerie]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

It's more than that. When he's in, we get solid play out of the RT position. When he's in, Daryl plays RG and handles it pretty well. When he's NOT in, Daryl handles the RT position poorly and Cody Ford at RG is a complete turnstile. 

 

I'm not here saying we definitely would have won if the O-Line was correct and we had Star and Edmunds instead of Klein and Butler. But to look at how we've performed at full strength and how we performed today and say it doesn't matter is foolish.

What you say about the o line is true.  Plus, I forgot that we're also missing Zimmer.  He is huge on this d line.  

[damj]

1 hour ago, 97bills said:

Im here for the good news!! 

I just saved 15% by switching to Geico!

[Buffalo Barbarian]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

The Good News:

 

 

- When we have Daryl Williams at RG and Spencer Brown at RT - the Offensive Line is solid. Not amazing, but solid. The offense performs at a much higher level with that stability on the Line. Getting them back and in the right spots will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

- When we have Star Lotulelei on the D-Line, the entire Defense performs better. This has been obvious in practically every game he's been on the field this season. His ability to eat up Lineman consistently makes everyone play a little more free.

 

- We were down Tremaine Edmunds. And outside of a handful of plays here and there or a game here or there when everything is working around him, AJ Klein is a huge dropoff. Getting back Star and Edmunds will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

 

The Bad News:

 

 

- With both Star and Brown's personal decisions, there's no telling when we'll get either back. Brown will be out for at least the Saints game. Star could theoretically come back for New Orleans, but it will be less than 14 days and who's to say he'll be up to it.

 

- Both could easily be put back on the list again for at least 10 days for a simple exposure.

 

- Tremaine Edmunds seems like he's on the right path. But with a Hammy, he could go back down at any time.

 

- McDermott's decision to insist on banging a square peg into a round hole by consistently putting out Cody Ford at RG and Daryl Williams at RT with Spencer Brown out doesn't seem like it's going to change. All logic pointed to not doing that again today and he did it. Sure enough, it looked like garbage, just as it has in the past. So I'm not convinced he's going to change this way of thinking if he didn't after seeing it a couple times already. But for the love of God - put Williams at Guard and try something else at Tackle. Please!

 

- We have ZERO depth on this team. Apparently, Ryan Bates, Tommy Doyle, and Jamil Douglas are so bad that McDermott refuses to give them a chance at RT - even though Daryl Williams is a turnstile there while being a decent Guard. AJ Klein is not good. Period. Asking him to fill in at LB outside of in a pinch is always going to bite us. We're also nowhere with Harrison Phillips and Vernon Butler if something happens to Star or Oliver.

 

 

All in all, when we have our best guys out there - we're at least competitive with good teams at full strength like the Titans and Chiefs. Today we were just too short handed and made terrible personnel decisions on top of it. We may have still lost had we had all 3 guys we were missing and had McDermott not continue to make boneheaded O-Line personnel decisions. But it wouldn't have looked like it looked today otherwise.

 

i agree with most of this but we can get by without Edmunds. Our biggest problem is not being physical up front on both sides of the ball.

 

 

1 hour ago, 97bills said:

Im here for the good news!! 

 

fresh out

 

 

[vincec]

1 hour ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

This is so beyond a player here or there…..

 

I just can’t wait to hear McDs excuses etc….

 

*Gotta look at the film.

*Everyone has to do their part, coaches too.

*Theres a few plays I know Josh would like to have back.

*I gotta do better.

*Cant turn the ball over.

 

Coach why was it hard to stop the run? Would an extra DL or extra LB help, why stay in the Nickel knowing they were gonna run? From the outside it looks like no adjustments were made.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more.

[Boatdrinks]

Good news : the Bills have another game in just 4 days ! 
 
Bad news : the Bills have another game in just 4 days. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

The Good News:

 

 

- When we have Daryl Williams at RG and Spencer Brown at RT - the Offensive Line is solid. Not amazing, but solid. The offense performs at a much higher level with that stability on the Line. Getting them back and in the right spots will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

- When we have Star Lotulelei on the D-Line, the entire Defense performs better. This has been obvious in practically every game he's been on the field this season. His ability to eat up Lineman consistently makes everyone play a little more free.

 

- We were down Tremaine Edmunds. And outside of a handful of plays here and there or a game here or there when everything is working around him, AJ Klein is a huge dropoff. Getting back Star and Edmunds will help immensely on that side of the ball.

 

 

The Bad News:

 

 

- With both Star and Brown's personal decisions, there's no telling when we'll get either back. Brown will be out for at least the Saints game. Star could theoretically come back for New Orleans, but it will be less than 14 days and who's to say he'll be up to it.

 

- Both could easily be put back on the list again for at least 10 days for a simple exposure.

 

- Tremaine Edmunds seems like he's on the right path. But with a Hammy, he could go back down at any time.

 

- McDermott's decision to insist on banging a square peg into a round hole by consistently putting out Cody Ford at RG and Daryl Williams at RT with Spencer Brown out doesn't seem like it's going to change. All logic pointed to not doing that again today and he did it. Sure enough, it looked like garbage, just as it has in the past. So I'm not convinced he's going to change this way of thinking if he didn't after seeing it a couple times already. But for the love of God - put Williams at Guard and try something else at Tackle. Please!

 

- We have ZERO depth on this team. Apparently, Ryan Bates, Tommy Doyle, and Jamil Douglas are so bad that McDermott refuses to give them a chance at RT - even though Daryl Williams is a turnstile there while being a decent Guard. AJ Klein is not good. Period. Asking him to fill in at LB outside of in a pinch is always going to bite us. We're also nowhere with Harrison Phillips and Vernon Butler if something happens to Star or Oliver.

 

 

All in all, when we have our best guys out there - we're at least competitive with good teams at full strength like the Titans and Chiefs. Today we were just too short handed and made terrible personnel decisions on top of it. We may have still lost had we had all 3 guys we were missing and had McDermott not continue to make boneheaded O-Line personnel decisions. But it wouldn't have looked like it looked today otherwise.

 

Apparently once you test positive and have had Covid according to Aaron Rodgers you're not tested for the next 90 days as testing would generate false results.  Not certain this is true, thought do seem to recall someone else here confirming that is correct, so simple exposure may not be an issue.  Do agree with their personal decisions creating the larger problem.  Admittedly they could be vaxxed and still be out, but reduces the potential.  Actually don't fault Star as rumor is he's a Morman and that getting vaxxed is very controversial within their religion.  He may be one of a handful in the league if vaccines were to become mandatory, would have a legal exemption. 

 

Last week there were at least two or three threads all about how good and valuable AJ Klein is, now he's no good!  LOL

 

Not saying they shouldn't make a change but curious as to how you know we made "terrible personnel decisions"  You don't know that based on what has been seen in practice that Doyle or Douglas are even worse.  Bates may be better but then are playing our only backup center which is somewhat risky, but may have been worth the risk all things considered.  Certainly easy for fans and the media to say they should change things without having any idea whether the changes will actually help or not.

 

I do think if there were any positions that could least afford to have a starter out particularly today against Indy would be Star followed by two offensive lineman.  If it were just Brown out, think we'd still have been OK, but once down to two backups we're in trouble.

 

Having said all this still feel if every team in the AFC were 100% healthy including Buffalo, the Bills still may have the most talented roster overall.   The two teams we'd likely still struggle with is Indy and Tenn as seem to struggle with run heavy teams.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

49 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

The Bills addressed their perceived biggest need for pass rushers with those first two picks. 

 

Some of the offensive line players from last season that were resigned simply aren't playing nearly as well this season. The Bills need some really good OGs.

Except I’m waiting for them to, you know, rush the passer?

[Nihilarian]

28 minutes ago, AlCowlingsTaxiService said:

Except I’m waiting for them to, you know, rush the passer?

Hey, I agree. Beane did say that this past draft was more about the future.

 

Anyway, kinda tough to rush the passer when the QB goes 11 of 20 for 106 yards...

 

Can't...stop...the...run!!!  But then Taylor has been averaging 5.8 YPC against everyone. He also has been averaging 16 carries per game...till Buffalo. 32 rushes for 185 yards, 4 TDs rushing.

 

So much for that #1 overall defense.

[TheCockSportif]

This is the first time I'm saying this in 3 or so years, but good and bad news aside, this doesn't look like a team that wants to win to me.  They win and it's kumbaya.  They lose, and they fold like a tent.