Do you think a 4-3 formation could be a good one ?

[Italian Bills]

I lately have this in my mind … using all our three LBs together to give more pressure on other QB and because our three LBs are quick enough to pass over opposite tackles. 
Maybe dropping Milano in the middle letting Edmunds and Klein go for the QB. 

 

Another reason because we could use a 4-3 formation is because we do have four strong defensive backs and anyway we could switch from the 4-3 to a nichel or dime formation if needed. 
 

What you think ? 

[NI Bills Fan]

its certainly a question worth considering after seeing how Klein played on Sunday.  However, in my simple mind, I boil that question down to who do you want on the field, AJ Klein or Taron Johnson?

 

In todays pass heavy NFL, and with how well TJ can read the play, tackle and cover etc., I'd opt for the nickel with TJ on the field over Klein the majority of the time.

Edited November 17, 2021 by NI Bills Fan

[JGMcD2]

I don’t think we’re taking Taron Johnson off the field. Maybe a little more against run heavy teams… but we’ll play predominantly nickel. 

[Italian Bills]

1 minute ago, NI Bills Fan said:

its certainly a question worth considering after seeing how Klein played on Sunday.  However, in my simple mind, I boil that question down to who do you want on the field, AJ Klein or defensive backs?

 

In todays pass heavy NFL, and with with how well TJ can read the play, tackle and cover etc. , I'd opt for the nickel with TJ on the field over Klein the majority of the time.

Interesting point of you… honestly i didn’t consider TJ in my theory. This because i wish to be very aggressive on the line attacking the QB more often.. maybe also using a safety blitz sometimes. 

[bmur66]

You want to change the no. 1 rated defense?

[djp14150]

If the 3 rd LB is a safety…sure.

[Hebert19]

17 minutes ago, Italian Bills said:

I lately have this in my mind … using all our three LBs together to give more pressure on other QB and because our three LBs are quick enough to pass over opposite tackles. 
Maybe dropping Milano in the middle letting Edmunds and Klein go for the QB. 

 

Another reason because we could use a 4-3 formation is because we do have four strong defensive backs and anyway we could switch from the 4-3 to a nichel or dime formation if needed. 
 

What you think ? 

Gameplan specific.  Against colts or a henry lead titans I'd like to see more 4-3...against most teams more nickel.  

 

Good news is that our LBS cover pretty well...so against running teams we don't lose too much in passing. 

[Italian Bills]

2 minutes ago, bmur66 said:

You want to change the no. 1 rated defense?

I didn’t say that. I was just thinking if sometime we could use that 4-3 formation to be more aggressive against the QB, we never used our three LBs together and having three very good ones, it could be something to use here and there, not constantly. 

1 minute ago, djp14150 said:

If the 3 rd LB is a safety…sure.

No no… i would like to see what would happen with all our three LBs together on the field at the same time. Of course we would have to think about dropping one and be very focused on the deep side of the field. 

[Italian Bills]

3 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

Gameplan specific.  Against colts or a henry lead titans I'd like to see more 4-3...against most teams more nickel.  

 

Good news is that our LBS cover pretty well...so against running teams we don't lose too much in passing. 

The gameplan is obviously very important to decide when to use this formation and when don’t do it. I agree with you that against strong run offense teams using three LBs could help our interior OL pretty well. 

[GunnerBill]

The split against Baltimore in the playoffs last year was about 60% nickel and 40% 'base' (I use the inverted commas because the Bills' base is nickel but you get the point... I use base here as shorthand for 4-3). 

 

That is what I would do against Indy this week. I'd consider it against New England as well but their formations can take advantage of catching you in base and I worry they'd pick on Klein in coverage. 

 

Most of the time I am fine with the Bills primarily playing nickel. Against the run heavy teams though I'd like a more even split. 

[NewEra]

I think it’s a GREAT idea this week.  Might be a good idea to play some vs the Pats too.  

 

[hondo in seattle]

I think the OPs question was interesting because I hear it said on tv that the Bills employ the 4-3 as their base defense.  Yet the OP suggests we try the 4-3.   Why should we try 4-3 when we're already 4-3?  Well, because we're actually a 4-2 defense as we all know.  

 

In the old days, the 4-2 would be called a "pass prevent" defense and it is good against the pass.  An important consideration in a league where the pass is getting more and more important over the years - a trend that's likely to continue.

 

With this lighter formation, we do seem to struggle against bigger backs.  But, weirdly, the run D that McD and Frazier have created with this 4-2 is currently ranked as the 3rd best run defense in the league.  

 

Would the 4-3 provide greater blitz opportunities?  Maybe.  A 4-3 with a blitzing linebacker would mean, obviously, 5 guys going after the QB with 6 in coverage.  

 

But I think McD and Frazier prize coverage over pressure.  They typically want 7 in coverage.  And, given our rankings (#2 pass, #3 run, #1 overall), they're probably not eager to experiment with new/different ideas.  

 

 

[Frostbite]

32 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I think it’s a GREAT idea this week.  Might be a good idea to play some vs the Pats too.  

 

Agreed. Would love to see it this week. Wanted it badly against the titans

[chris heff]

48 minutes ago, bmur66 said:

You want to change the no. 1 rated defense?

Exactly my first thought.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

1 hour ago, bmur66 said:

You want to change the no. 1 rated defense?

 

19 minutes ago, chris heff said:

Exactly my first thought.

Great Ryan's Ghost!

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, Italian Bills said:

I lately have this in my mind … using all our three LBs together to give more pressure on other QB and because our three LBs are quick enough to pass over opposite tackles. 
Maybe dropping Milano in the middle letting Edmunds and Klein go for the QB. 

 

Another reason because we could use a 4-3 formation is because we do have four strong defensive backs and anyway we could switch from the 4-3 to a nichel or dime formation if needed. 
 

What you think ? 

No.  There is a reason we paid Klein starting money (because he was supposed to be the Starting SLB) and moved to running the nickel 90% of the time.  Modern offenses have changed how defenses are.  The only time I seen us run more traditional 4-3 was against the Titans because of their Run Heavy offense.  It will stay that way, majority Nickel.  

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, Italian Bills said:

I lately have this in my mind … using all our three LBs together to give more pressure on other QB and because our three LBs are quick enough to pass over opposite tackles. 
Maybe dropping Milano in the middle letting Edmunds and Klein go for the QB. 

 

Another reason because we could use a 4-3 formation is because we do have four strong defensive backs and anyway we could switch from the 4-3 to a nichel or dime formation if needed. 
 

What you think ? 

Leslie Frazier spoke about this during his press conference yesterday.  It’s on the WGR website.

 

He said that the Bills are mostly a Nickel defense largely because of how good Taron Johnson has been against the run.  He said that typically and offense feels confident to run against a nickel defense but thanks to Johnson and our safeties which can come up and make tackles, they’ve been able to keep the extra DB on the field without much of a drop off.  

 

He did say the one exception was the game against Tennessee - probably because of Henry.  So I think there’s a decent chance we see more 4-3 on Sunday 

Edited November 16, 2021 by JohnNord

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

As was already pointed out, maybe against run heavy teams like this coming week against Indy.  Tenn would be another one, but they do have a pretty strong group of WR/TE when healthy so somewhat risky there.

 

Do agree it may be worth playing Klein a bit more to use as a blitzer or on some plays let him drop back and instead blitz either Edmunds or Milano just to confuse things.  But still not very often overall.

[Italian Bills]

Everything i had in my mind about this 4-3 stuff, start from the fact that i wish we could play more propositive football on D instead that conservative. 
I mean… i want our approach to be very aggressive, give less time to other QBs to throw, get more sacks… but of course not every single play, but sometimes yes. 
Mix the formation could only improve our D and worry other DCs how to answer changing their comfort zone. 
 

We have top cornerbacks and safeties that can cover the field pretty damn well man to man, so i won’t be so concerned to try the 4-3 few times. 
And like you guys said, against strong backs, with who we have hard times, one more LB could help a lot. 

[Virgil]

No.  3-3-5, maybe 

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

I don’t think we’re taking Taron Johnson off the field. Maybe a little more against run heavy teams… but we’ll play predominantly nickel. 

 

I'm wondering why we don't say in 4-3 against 2 wr sets and take Levi off the field? 

 

Or against 3 wr sets, go 3-3 nickel more and have Klein play on the edge. 

[nucci]

Most teams use 3 WR formations during the games. You need 5 DBs especially if they also have a good TE

[MAJBobby]

Bills Running the Nickel over 90% of the time have created the TOP Defense in the NFL.  And people here want to change that... Why?

 

I think their Nickel is a good one, no reason to change anything there, they are the Top Defense in the league for a reason. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by MAJBobby

[nucci]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Bills Running the Nickel over 90% of the time have created the TOP Defense in the NFL.  And people here want to change that... Why?

You put your best players on the field. Like you said, seems to be working 

[hondo in seattle]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Bills Running the Nickel over 90% of the time have created the TOP Defense in the NFL.  And people here want to change that... Why?

 

As I recall, we ran Nickel 91% of the time last year.

 

Is that true again this year?  I thought it was somewhat less, though still - by far - our preferred formation.  

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, nucci said:

You put your best players on the field. Like you said, seems to be working 

Yep no reason to change a defense up because a depth LBer had a good game in a fill in performance. 

2 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

As I recall, we ran Nickel 91% of the time last year.

 

Is that true again this year?  I thought it was somewhat less, though still - by far - our preferred formation.  

Yes it is true again this year.  Fraiser even said Nickel is the defense, only game they didnt play it heavy was Tenn because of Henry.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by MAJBobby

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

They have the unarguably BEST defense in the NFL 

 

You don’t did what isn’t broken!!!

 

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

The NFL is a copycat league.  

 

Will more teams switch to the Nickel as their base after seeing the Bills success?

 

Or are the Bills just blessed with unique talent that allows us to successfully utilize the Nickel against run & pass?

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, hondo in seattle said:

The NFL is a copycat league.  

 

Will more teams switch to the Nickel as their base after seeing the Bills success?

 

Or are the Bills just blessed with unique talent that allows us to successfully utilize the Nickel against run & pass?

Will be as long as other teams can find 2 LBers that go sideline to sideline and a Nickle that plays the run like a LBer.

[WhoTom]

47 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

I'm wondering why we don't say in 4-3 against 2 wr sets and take Levi off the field? 

 

Levi is our #2 CB. If you go 4-3, you take Taron off the field, not Levi.

 

 

[Motorin']

6 minutes ago, WhoTom said:

 

Levi is our #2 CB. If you go 4-3, you take Taron off the field, not Levi.

 

 

 

Taron is a better cb than Levi. The Bills think so too--take a look at their respective salaries. 

 

And the Bills value positional flexibility. I just saying that I think Taron could play CB 2 against run heavy teams and do a better job than Levi. 

 

And I'm not crapping on Levi. I think he's playing really well and is a solid outside deep half CB. 

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

It seems it’s been a while since I’ve seen the old 

which is better the 3-4 or the 4-3 and did Buffalo have the right personnel 

 

was it Rex or before him?

[hondo in seattle]

58 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

It seems it’s been a while since I’ve seen the old 

which is better the 3-4 or the 4-3 and did Buffalo have the right personnel 

 

was it Rex or before him?

 

Yeah, I remember those days.  That argument is becoming obsolete.    Nickel is the most common alignment in the NFL now, though there are variation of it.  The Bills run it more than anybody.

If I'm not mistaken, the 3-3 and the 3-4 (in that order) are the most common alignments.   4 man fronts are less common though Frazier, for one, loves the 4-2.

 

Any good X-and-O guy out there who can break this down better with percentages? 

[Max Fischer]

If the Bills were going to go 4-3, they would have done that before paying Taron Johnson starter money.

 

Just coincidently, I think this week AJ could play a bit more than normal to stop Jonathan Taylor. However, TJ is more than capable run defender. 

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Bills Running the Nickel over 90% of the time have created the TOP Defense in the NFL.  And people here want to change that... Why?

 

I think their Nickel is a good one, no reason to change anything there, they are the Top Defense in the league for a reason. 

 

Our D is awesome, especially against the pass. 

 

Against the Titans, the D gave up the most points all year. 

 

Klein only saw 3 snaps against Tenn. They are one of a handful of run heavy teams that might give us problems.

 

I think Klein should be on the field more against teams like Tenn, Indy, Cleveland and NE.  

 

 

 

[MAJBobby]

4 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Our D is awesome, especially against the pass. 

 

Against the Titans, the D gave up the most points all year. 

 

Klein only saw 3 snaps against Tenn. They are one of a handful of run heavy teams that might give us problems.

 

I think Klein should be on the field more against teams like Tenn, Indy, Cleveland and NE.  

 

 

 

They didnt play Nickle in Tenn.  Fraiser even confirmed that.

[Motorin']

15 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

They didnt play Nickle in Tenn.  Fraiser even confirmed that.

 

What did they play with Klein only seeing 3 snaps?

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, Motorin' said:

 

What did they play with Klein only seeing 3 snaps?

Ask the DC

 

 

[Motorin']

5 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Ask the DC

 

 

 

lol, that is a true statement. The Bills were not exclusively nickel against the Titans, because they were in 4-3 on 3 plays. On the other 50 plays they were in nickel. 

[LeGOATski]

4 hours ago, djp14150 said:

If the 3 rd LB is a safety…sure.

That's 4-2-5, which the Bills have used often with Neal. 

 

Instead of "run and stop the run", McDermott's philosophy seems to be "pass and stop the pass." That's why 4-3 hasn't really factored into their system as much.