Wow...NFL attempting to make vaccines mandatory for NFL players now...NFLPA not with it

[foreboding]

47 minutes ago, MrSarcasm said:

What constitutes way behind? At what point are they just behind?

I think 85% is terrible and we aren't there. Who wants 7 or 8 players walking around without protecting them and others. 1 is too many.

[Wayne Cubed]

1 minute ago, mannc said:

What makes you think that?

 

Why wouldn't I think that? You think a policy was passed between the NFL and the NFLPA without consent from the players? So the NFLPA signed off on a policy without consulting its own clients? 

[ndirish1978]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

What I bolded is probably correct.

 

The part about "based entirely on perception" is probably incorrect as is the "NFL only wants cover from blame" bit.

I think there's reasonable evidence to believe the NFL's policies were based on the science available at the time they were drawing them up last Spring, but have been slow to adjust to the changing reality on the ground this Summer.  I put up some refs and calculations over in the facts thread if you want to understand what I mean.

 

 

I agree that there are medical people in place trying their best to do things based on the evidence at hand. I do not believe these people are alone in setting league policies though. I believe they make their set of recommendations and the league makes their policies taking the experts reports into account along with their own set of executives. The desired outcome was a 100% vaccinated league, they set out to do that with a carrot/stick approach. Carrot - no mask, fewer tests, can visit family and friends; Stick - Mask, daily tests, no family visits AND no endorsements? I agree that the word entirely was a poor choice, should have been significantly influenced by perception.

[mannc]

Just now, Wayne Cubed said:

 

Why wouldn't I think that? You think a policy was passed between the NFL and the NFLPA without consent from the players? So the NFLPA signed off on a policy without consulting its own clients? 

I don't doubt that they "consulted" with the players, whatever that means, but neither of us knows what actually went into the NFLPA agreeing to the protocols.  It may have been based on the union's perception that it was the lesser of several evils.  I'm pretty sure the membership did not vote on it. I can't prove it, but I bet if you asked the Bills players (both vaxed and unvaxed), they probably would tell you it was a mistake to sign off on the protocols.

[Wayne Cubed]

Just now, mannc said:

I don't doubt that they "consulted" with the players, whatever that means, but neither of us knows what actually went into the NFLPA agreeing to the protocols.  It may have been based on the union's perception that it was the lesser of several evils.  I'm pretty sure the membership did not vote on it. I can't prove it, but I bet if you asked the Bills players (both vaxed and unvaxed), they probably would tell you it was a mistake to sign off on the protocols.

 

There's just no bases to believe that. There have been a few players vocally against it. Beasely being one. He does not represent the majority of players opinions. If there was a majority of opinions about this policy, more players would just come out and say it. But they aren't. And why would they be against it? For unvaxxed, its the same exact policy they had the previous season. For vaxxed it's less restrictions. This was all based on current data available. Which made sense at the time. You could argue it needs updating with the Delta variant, I would agree with that but there was nothing crazy about the policy at that time. It was incentivizing getting vaccinated and players/teams saw the benefit in it.

[bigdogtim]

I had read that people are accepting because America is a free country and everyone (read Beasley) is entitled to choose.  Agreed.  However, playing in the NFL is a privilege enjoyed by an elite few (read Beasley and his buddies).  It seems to me that whenever an elite group is afforded such a privilege, the group has arguable an ethical if not moral obligation to his peers.  That seems a small price to pay for membership in this elite group. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

I agree that there are medical people in place trying their best to do things based on the evidence at hand. I do not believe these people are alone in setting league policies though. I believe they make their set of recommendations and the league makes their policies taking the experts reports into account along with their own set of executives. The desired outcome was a 100% vaccinated league, they set out to do that with a carrot/stick approach. Carrot - no mask, fewer tests, can visit family and friends; Stick - Mask, daily tests, no family visits AND no endorsements? I agree that the word entirely was a poor choice, should have been significantly influenced by perception.

 

I can go with "significantly influenced by perception", most business decisions are.

 

My point is that the policies (including the carrots and the sticks) were likely not divorced from medical/scientific "best practice" according to the NFL's medical officers and scientific consultants at the time they were drawn up.  This isn't the place to discuss but there are some studies and calculations on the Covid Facts Thread in OTW.  

 

I do think the "carrots and the sticks" approach has backfired somewhat for the NFL now.  For example, it led to a situation where a player who called the league office with questions about the basis for the protocols was given one set of information, then given the name of some NFL experts to call for further discussion and what the expert (referred by the NFL) told them differed.  (Believe me or don't, I heard this from a source I won't name but who is close to the player in question and on the same team). 

 

I understand how it happened - the NFL-provided info was the original info underlying the protocols, and the expert given info was revised based on what the expert was currently seeing in practice - but it  led to a huge loss of trust.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, bigdogtim said:

I had read that people are accepting because America is a free country and everyone (read Beasley) is entitled to choose.  Agreed.  However, playing in the NFL is a privilege enjoyed by an elite few (read Beasley and his buddies).  It seems to me that whenever an elite group is afforded such a privilege, the group has arguable an ethical if not moral obligation to his peers.  That seems a small price to pay for membership in this elite group. 

 

I agree that playing in the NFL is a privilege, but there is a valid point that the problem at this point is not any of the Bills players sent home behaving unethically or immorally towards his peers.  They weren't sent home for protocol violations, nor did any protocol violations cause problems to date.

 

The problem is under the current protocols where they are tested every 2 weeks, a vaccinated asymptomatic or presymptomatic person can be in the facility interacting, unmasked, with players and staff, and will not be detected before they have had (what are defined as) close contacts with vaccinated players who are then sent home (even though they have not behaved unethically or immorally).

 

 

[TBBills]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-nfl-proposes-making-covid-043214385.html

They definitely should make it mandatory. Don't want to follow the companies rules you don't need to get paid.

[Kwai San]

36 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

I dont have my hopes up for this season.  It could derail at anytime.  It's gonna be stupid.  Vaccine or no vaccine. 

 

I agree with this......the whole season could just go right off the rails in a very short period of time.  How do you compensate people who buy tickets to a game, reserve hotels, get travel accommodations?  That right there is a rather large investment for some fans of which would go right out the window if a team were to forfeit a game or move a game.  Last season was a different animal all together.  With no fans it was relatively easy to massage the schedule....this season that is out the window.  Can you even begin to imagine the lawsuits that would occur?  And in our litigious society you damn well know that will happen.

 

From a completely selfish fanboy point of view I really want this season to happen as I believe the Bills are inn a position to do some damage and possibly win a SB.  But from a logical thinking persons point of view....I can see both sides of the coin regarding the vax.  Full disclosure I am vaxxed.  Not that I wanted too but I was required too.  Having the vax does make me feel much safer thats for sure and i didn't have that opinion in the beginning.  I feel sorry for the folks who are suffering needlessly and some of those folks will indeed die.  I can't just callously say oh well....them the breaks.  Thats not me.

 

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and the season will play out to a level of normal.  I am not betting on it though.

 

Go BILLS!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, mannc said:

IIRC, he had had both shots and was a day or so shy of two weeks post vax when he caught it.  Doesn't seem like a great spokesperson for the vax.  

 

This is incorrect.  Dawkins stated that he was "a few days" (I recall 1.5 weeks) past the 2nd shot when he DEVELOPED SYMPTOMS.   Since the incubation period is 5 to 14 days, the chances are that Dawkins was infected either a bit before he received his second shot up to about a week afterwards.

[Kwai San]

41 minutes ago, mannc said:

And he was vaccinated...

 

Come on man....he was not fully vaxxed....yes had 2 shots but was short of the 2 weeks required to have the vax take hold.  That has been told by him several times.

[Malazan]

42 minutes ago, mannc said:

I did not say they necessarily are under fire. I posed the question.  The fact that many players are vaccinated doesn't mean they favor the protocols or even wanted the vax; many probably got vaccinated because they didn't feel like they had a viable choice, and many who are vaccinated may nonetheless believe the protocols are silly and counterproductive.  

 

"I'm just asking the question" is one of the most BS things ever.

 

7 minutes ago, TBBills said:

They definitely should make it mandatory. Don't want to follow the companies rules you don't need to get paid.

 

That's a rough viewpoint. Companies shouldn't just make rules up on their own. It's  bad situation that our political process has been so poisoned that companies are left in the position to do this, but we should work to get that process fixed and not force companies to make the decision. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by jeremy2020

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

It’s a business 

 

if said business says get a shot or take a hike 

 

They have a Choice 

to comply or not.  
 

 

I have no idea what will happen but if it ends up that way it ends up that way.

The only thing I hope is the Bills organization as a whole does the most it can to keep guys playing football every week.

The rest is what it is.

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, Process said:

Lol, care to share why it wouldn't work? Sure some vets will retire. Who gives a damn.

 

 

1 hour ago, Buffalo619 said:

A mandate will never work. This has potential to backfire tremendously. Get your popcorn ready. Bring in the tomato plants. 
 

I was going to post something similar to Process to why would it never work...As stated above, for sure some will retire or whatnot, but not enough to be a big deal. Also some could just decide to get it to keep getting paid.

 

Anyway, I don't see how you think it would never work.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Sheneneh Jenkins

[MrSarcasm]

51 minutes ago, foreboding said:

I think 85% is terrible and we aren't there. Who wants 7 or 8 players walking around without protecting them and others. 1 is too many.

So we are talking about an 8% difference then or 7 extra players. If 1 is too many then the NFL needs to shut down until they have 100% compliance.

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, Process said:

That's different then saying a mandate wouldn't work. If they agree to a mandate, then the players can't do anything about it. Get the shot or retire, which I'm sure Beasley would do. And I couldn't care less. 

Well one thing that would be for sure is all cards would be shown for him. Would definitely find out if he's bluffing or not lol. With that said, I can't say I would not care because he's a solid part of this offense and he would be missed for sure, however the other WR's and depth they have would definitely soften the blow.

[transplantbillsfan]

All vaccination/political discussion aside... if the NFL and NFLPA Allowed the vaccination mandate, it doesn't seem like anyone could argue against the fact that it would lift at least one very real weight of worry we have with this team this year.  The only potential negative result I would see is Beasley following through on his threat to retire.

[LeGOATski]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Boy said:

    Feel like there is some CYA going on the leagues part. If games get canceled they can assign the blame elsewhere.

No canceled games. You play with who you have. Like how they made one team play with no QBs last year. Washington?

 

But I fully expect the NFL to play favorites again.

[Buffalo Boy]

26 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

No canceled games. You play with who you have. Like how they made one team play with no QBs last year. Washington?

 

But I fully expect the NFL to play favorites again.

Sounds good to me.

Still super pissed about Titans getting what amounted to a two week bye before playing us when they were the cause of the problem. Some serious BS , that!

[NickelCity]

31 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

No canceled games. You play with who you have. Like how they made one team play with no QBs last year. Washington?

 

But I fully expect the NFL to play favorites again.

 

Denver, wasn't it?

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Kwai San said:

 

I agree with this......the whole season could just go right off the rails in a very short period of time.  How do you compensate people who buy tickets to a game, reserve hotels, get travel accommodations?  That right there is a rather large investment for some fans of which would go right out the window if a team were to forfeit a game or move a game.  Last season was a different animal all together.  With no fans it was relatively easy to massage the schedule....this season that is out the window.  Can you even begin to imagine the lawsuits that would occur?  And in our litigious society you damn well know that will happen.

 

 

They have not done so when they moved games whether for virus, weather, or ratings so they are not going to now.

[clayboy54]

9 minutes ago, NickelCity said:

 

Denver, wasn't it?

Yes. Washington had no QB on their own account.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Sounds good to me.

Still super pissed about Titans getting what amounted to a two week bye before playing us when they were the cause of the problem. Some serious BS , that!

 

I See No Lies.

[Success]

48 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

All vaccination/political discussion aside... if the NFL and NFLPA Allowed the vaccination mandate, it doesn't seem like anyone could argue against the fact that it would lift at least one very real weight of worry we have with this team this year.  The only potential negative result I would see is Beasley following through on his threat to retire.

If all we lost was Beasley, I'd be for it.  I really wouldn't mind seeing him move on at this point.  I absolutely love him on the field, but he has become way too much of a distraction. I can also see him missing more than a few games.

 

I'd wonder how many would go that route, though.  Would some of the younger guys like Davis really opt out of their career if it was mandated?  It could be devastating for the Bills if none of our unvaxxed guys are willing to budge.

 

[Punching Bag]

2 hours ago, Mat68 said:

Increase the projected cap next year by 10% and the NFLPA will fold like a cheap tent.  

 

Are you suggesting NFLPA prefers carets to carrots?

[Patrick Duffy]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Until another WR gets hurt, then all of a sudden their WR unit looks incredibly subpar…. 

Depends which WR that got hurt. As long as it's not Diggs, the WR unit will never be subpar

[LeGOATski]

20 minutes ago, clayboy54 said:

Yes. Washington had no QB on their own account.

That must've been what threw me off 😄

[Success]

3 minutes ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Depends which WR that got hurt. As long as it's not Diggs, the WR unit will never be subpar

 

I agree w/ that to an extent, but if there was a week that Beasley & Davis are out (which could be every other week for all we know), and then someone like Sanders got hurt....we'd be pretty thin.

 

[Patrick Duffy]

2 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I agree w/ that to an extent, but if there was a week that Beasley & Davis are out (which could be every other week for all we know), and then someone like Sanders got hurt....we'd be pretty thin.

 

Well yeah, any team missing 3 WRs would be tough.

5 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I agree w/ that to an extent, but if there was a week that Beasley & Davis are out (which could be every other week for all we know), and then someone like Sanders got hurt....we'd be pretty thin.

 

My point was if another WR got hurt it in no way makes this Bills unit "subpar" like other poster stated. This is about as good Bills WR's have been with the depth this year

[Fred Slacks]

Everyone’s seems to be strongly opinionated about Beasley because he isn’t on their same narrative. But you’re also assuming the rest fall in line with that belief which they may or may not. Strong stance. But what if it’s mandated and Josh Allen sits out cause he’s not wanting to get vaccinated. Just assuming he’s gotten it or will is a big assumption. 
 

I see no reason why we can’t play this season the exact way we did last season pre vaccine. We made it through then surely we can do it again. 
 

This doesn’t need to be an issue. Mandating anything will make it an issue. 
 

Also the Supreme Court ruling back in 1912 was a $150 fine for not vaccinating. They didn’t pin the man down and vaccinate his child because he refused to vaccinate it. Just so we have the correct context. Any mandate that is applied people will still have freedom to choose. Like employers requiring it and employees quoting their jobs. The exact same could happen in the NFL. This is not as simple as many on here think it is. 
 

playing devils advocate assume JA is anti Covid vaccine like Beasley. You think the Bills would be stoked if it’s mandated and JA walks away and says he’s not getting it?  They just guaranteed him $150 million. 
 

Just food for thought. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I could see your point if it stopped you from getting Covid or even spreading it...

 

Why does it have to stop it?  What if it "just" reduces the chance of a player getting Covid or even spreading it?

 

Let's reframe as hypothetical Football question on a different topic. 

 

Suppose there's a treatment that doesn't eliminate the risk of knee injury but reduces it, thus reducing the risk of missing multiple games or even a season.  Would the players want it? 

 

Suppose it reduces the risk 100 fold.  My guess is they'd line up en masse.  A mandate wouldn't matter.  Side effects at the 10 per 100,000 wouldn't matter.

 

Now make that hypothetical treatment 10 fold, or 5 fold, or only 3 fold reduction of risk. 

 

At what point do you think the players would stop wanting this hypothetical "knee injury reduction treatment"?

 

I dunno.  I tend to think even at 3 fold reduction of risk for missing games or losing a season due to a knee injury, the players would be like "*****, yeah, why wouldn't I?".

 

Because there's such a quagmire of misinformation and news without context around Covid, it's become a huge challenge for player to strip off the noise and really get down to facts and logic to make a decision (and despite what people think, I believe most NFL players are quite intelligent.  Not well educated, sometimes; make poor choices, sometimes; but modern NFL football is a complicated game.  I don't think you can master a modern NFL playbook if you're a dummy.)

 

Plus, because their bodies are their money-makers, the players understandably want to choose what goes in their bodies and not have it forced on them.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

14 minutes ago, Fred Slacks said:

Everyone’s seems to be strongly opinionated about Beasley because he isn’t on their same narrative. But you’re also assuming the rest fall in line with that belief which they may or may not. Strong stance. But what if it’s mandated and Josh Allen sits out cause he’s not wanting to get vaccinated. Just assuming he’s gotten it or will is a big assumption. 
 

I see no reason why we can’t play this season the exact way we did last season pre vaccine. We made it through then surely we can do it again. 
 

This doesn’t need to be an issue. Mandating anything will make it an issue. 
 

Also the Supreme Court ruling back in 1912 was a $150 fine for not vaccinating. They didn’t pin the man down and vaccinate his child because he refused to vaccinate it. Just so we have the correct context. Any mandate that is applied people will still have freedom to choose. Like employers requiring it and employees quoting their jobs. The exact same could happen in the NFL. This is not as simple as many on here think it is. 
 

playing devils advocate assume JA is anti Covid vaccine like Beasley. You think the Bills would be stoked if it’s mandated and JA walks away and says he’s not getting it?  They just guaranteed him $150 million. 
 

Just food for thought. 

The problem with comparing last season vs this season is that the viral strain is different, its infectiousness is different, and the NFL protocols are different.

 

My personal perspective is that the NFL protocols need to be revised for the regular season, but I don't think getting 10% or even 30% more players vaccinated is the most effective change. 

 

If a player walks away and refuses to comply with NFL rules, my understanding is there are levels of penalties/loss of game checks and game-check amortized signing bonus) but eventually they forfeit their guarantees (like AB with Oakland).  That would be any NFL rules.

 

This isn't the place to discuss Supreme Court rulings and mandatory vaccine law.  We're also not discussing children here, we're discussing the NFL employer-employee relationship and potential employer rules, complicated by union representation and a CBA.

 

[Doc Brown]

6 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

So these two idiots got fined for not wearing masks?  That is beyond stupid.  I get not wanting a vaccine.  It really is a personal decision. How is wearing a mask violate your body.  This is beyond stupid and inconsiderate of the team. 

What?

[transplantbillsfan]

49 minutes ago, Success said:

If all we lost was Beasley, I'd be for it.  I really wouldn't mind seeing him move on at this point.  I absolutely love him on the field, but he has become way too much of a distraction. I can also see him missing more than a few games.

 

I'd wonder how many would go that route, though.  Would some of the younger guys like Davis really opt out of their career if it was mandated?  It could be devastating for the Bills if none of our unvaxxed guys are willing to budge.

 

 

I could see Beasley retiring.  We know that Star isn't vaccinated... I don't know his reasons, but since he sat out last year I could also see him retiring.

 

The only other players I think we know for sure aren't vaccinated are Davis and Butler.  I don't think we'd miss Butler much, unless it was BOTH him and Star retiring.  Kinda doubt Davis would retire considering he's a 4th round draft pick making very little money who will be due a big contract in a couple years.

 

Don't know for sure, but I know Milano had to leave the facility for a day, but I thought I heard he was actually vaccinated.  If he chose to retire that would obviously hurt.

 

We've heard from Edmunds that he'd rather not talk about his status.  Again, if he's unvaccinated, he's also due a big contract coming up momentarily.

 

I've posted my reasoning for why I think Allen is already vaccinated.  If the vaccine were mandated and he doesn't have it I just think he'd get it just because of how much he loves football.

 

Rookies and UDFAs to me are all the more likely to have gotten vaccinated just because of their new status in the league and generally tenuous status on the team.

 

 

So.... I could absolutely see Cole and Star retiring if the vaccine were mandated.  I don't really think we lose anyone else.  Just my own speculation.

[Fred Slacks]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

The problem with comparing last season vs this season is that the viral strain is different, its infectiousness is different, and the NFL protocols are different.

 

My personal perspective is that the NFL protocols need to be revised for the regular season, but I don't think getting 10% or even 30% more players vaccinated is the most effective change. 

 

If a player walks away and refuses to comply with NFL rules, my understanding is there are levels of penalties/loss of game checks and game-check amortized signing bonus) but eventually they forfeit their guarantees (like AB with Oakland).  That would be any NFL rules.

 

This isn't the place to discuss Supreme Court rulings and mandatory vaccine law.  We're also not discussing children here, we're discussing the NFL employer-employee relationship and potential employer rules, complicated by union representation and a CBA.

 

I only mentioned the other things as well because they were in other comments. 
 

They can lose game checks but guaranteed money is guaranteed money. The Bills are on the hook for that. 
 

Will be interesting how it plays out. New stuff evolving constantly. 

[ndirish1978]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I understand how it happened - the NFL-provided info was the original info underlying the protocols, and the expert given info was revised based on what the expert was currently seeing in practice - but it  led to a huge loss of trust.

 

This makes a lot of sense, thanks for that insight. To be clear, I'm not questioning the medical professionals, whom I have zero reason to distrust or cast aspersions on. My issue is that I mistrust the league and I don't believe they care about anything more than making money so I don't look at announcements that they are consider changing a policy as an update to changing medical conditions. The political side has been mismanaged. If they wanted everyone vaccinated they should have just mandated it and worked something out with the NFLPA, instead they penalized players with things like telling them they couldn't have endorsements without being vaccinated. I don't believe that removing an endorsement from a player could be considered being made with health concerns in mind.

[Patrick Duffy]

17 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Let’s say Sanders gets hurt. You have Diggs, Davis, McKenzie and Kumerow…. If I’m a DC I just take away Diggs and I’m pretty confident the other guys won’t beat us.

Well that would be a very bad assumption by any DC. So if you were to "take away " Diggs, it would require a double team a lot of the time. That would make Davis's, (which I'm sure you are aware is a pretty solid WR,) day a little easier. Add McKenzie's quickness along with how impressive he has looked in the slot, he would eat it up with all the attention on Diggs.

 

Kumerow I;ll give you, Although we know he can make plays too. In any event if that is any DC's mindset, I would not be happy with him if I'm HC. Also in no way Bills WR's would be "subpar" in that scenario.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Sheneneh Jenkins

[John from Riverside]

I dont think I agree with manditory shots......Im not ready to go there on that

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

This makes a lot of sense, thanks for that insight. To be clear, I'm not questioning the medical professionals, whom I have zero reason to distrust or cast aspersions on. My issue is that I mistrust the league and I don't believe they care about anything more than making money so I don't look at announcements that they are consider changing a policy as an update to changing medical conditions. The political side has been mismanaged. If they wanted everyone vaccinated they should have just mandated it and worked something out with the NFLPA, instead they penalized players with things like telling them they couldn't have endorsements without being vaccinated. I don't believe that removing an endorsement from a player could be considered being made with health concerns in mind.

I had missed that aspect.  On the surface, it sounds like a point but what do the endorsements involve?

 

If it’s like signings or appearances at public events, I can see it tracking with reduced risk, but my take is NONE of the players, vaxxed or not, should be “pressing palms” with the public during the season right now