Bills opening stadium discussions with NYS and Erie County

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

I read the stadium report Populous did a few years ago. The major reason for indoor is the amount of events you can do and host like doubles as opposed to out door. If you are going to spend that much money I'd rather have 55-60 things happening a year as opposed to the 20-25 you get outdoor.

 

I did Miami pre Canapy and post Canapy and it was like a different stadium. Even though it was like 80% capacity, with the Canapy the sound reverberated tenfold more then the night game I went to without it.

 

Def an interesting difference to have experienced.

The indoor/outdoor thing is an economic analysis that has to be done. That’s typically where the private public partnerships come into play. You have to host one heck of a lot of events to pay for a $500 Million roof. So if you assume the investment lasts for twenty five years or more that’s $20 million per year or $1 million per event. And while it’s not this simple that equates to $20 extra per ticket tacked on for each crowd of 50,000. Does it pencil? 
 

And thanks for the review on Miami. I haven’t been there since they added the roof. It was a horrible venue before that renovation. 

[Just Jack]

7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

A really creative design team would construct a new, modest, smaller capacity, open air, but covered seat stadium in Orchard Park that would have parking facility amenities to reinforce the tailgating experience. Then, simply charge more for parking and people would pay it. Large parking lot food, restroom, video, etc venues would make the pre and post game experience truly unique to WNY and very fitting to the Buffalo experience.

 

I've thought, before they started Disney parking, that it would be cool if one parking lot could have reserved spots, with each spot have a small lockable storage unit, maybe 5x10.  So you could reserve your spot for the season, and store your chairs, grill, tables, instead of hauling them back and forth each game.  

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

It's hard to know what to predict. A dome seems likely until one considers how few appropriate events are likely to be held in Buffalo. But it would not be smart or likely to put an open-air stadium downtown where the winds would be devilish. Forget the retractable roof--it would never be retracted except on the most perfect summer nights...

[DrDawkinstein]

24 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The indoor/outdoor thing is an economic analysis that has to be done. That’s typically where the private public partnerships come into play. You have to host one heck of a lot of events to pay for a $500 Million roof. So if you assume the investment lasts for twenty five years or more that’s $20 million per year or $1 million per event. And while it’s not this simple that equates to $20 extra per ticket tacked on for each crowd of 50,000. Does it pencil? 
 

And thanks for the review on Miami. I haven’t been there since they added the roof. It was a horrible venue before that renovation. 

 

Not sure I saw an answer to my previous question, so I'll ask the architect. Where do you get an extra $500M (30-50% of budget) for making a building with a roof? T

 

That is more than what the Falcons paid for their state-of-the-art retractable. We arent talking retractable here.

[Chicharito]

The only way I can see a dome is if it could be a dual sport stadium and since we don’t have Major League Baseball . I can’t see the broke state and declining economy being able to afford a new domed stadium.

[QCity]

38 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

If you are going to spend that much money I'd rather have 55-60 things happening a year as opposed to the 20-25 you get outdoor.

 

I hear this parroted quite a bit. How many extra Winter events do you think a dome will bring that can't already be held in the 19,000 seat Key Bank Arena? What are these 30-40 Winter happenings? A major concert, a boat show, a monster truck rally, hmm maybe that's even too much. They certainly aren't going to heat an entire stadium in the middle of a Buffalo February for a wedding.

 

A think a lot of the public believes in the "build it and they will come" adage, but I think the reality is that it's going to be unused 90% of the year dome or not.

[Saint Doug]

8 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

One thing to remember is the NFL shares some revenues like TV deals. Basically that shared revenue covers player costs. There is a lot of money being shared. 

 

So what I'm trying to say is the Buffalo Bills likely wouldn't survive without shared revenue. So that's part of the reason why there is pressure on the Bills to get this done. They have to keep up with the league. Bills need to increase their revenue. 

I get that the league shares revenue and the more money the Bills pull in, so do the other owners. I just don’t quite grasp how a new stadium is going to bring more money in. More expensive boxes? More restaurants/bars within? Short of bringing more bodies through the turnstiles, how is a shiny stadium going to extract more money out of the same number of people. If they want to raise prices, I get it. But, with Josh Allen chucking the ball, they can do this right now without all the fuss. 

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

The point also is that a lot of stadium revenue is NOT shared. So a stadium with more and better amenities generates more income for the team. That's why Jerrah built his temple to himself. 

[RiotAct]

1 hour ago, QCity said:

I hear this parroted quite a bit. How many extra Winter events do you think a dome will bring that can't already be held in the 19,000 seat Key Bank Arena? What are these 30-40 Winter happenings? A major concert, a boat show, a monster truck rally, hmm maybe that's even too much. They certainly aren't going to heat an entire stadium in the middle of a Buffalo February for a wedding.

 

A think a lot of the public believes in the "build it and they will come" adage, but I think the reality is that it's going to be unused 90% of the year dome or not.

sadly, you are correct.  Also, who knows what the rules for large events in NY State (with regards to social distancing and other health restrictions) will even look like 5-10 years from now.

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, corta765 said:

 

I read the stadium report Populous did a few years ago. The major reason for indoor is the amount of events you can do and host like doubles as opposed to out door. If you are going to spend that much money I'd rather have 55-60 things happening a year as opposed to the 20-25 you get outdoor.

 

I did Miami pre Canapy and post Canapy and it was like a different stadium. Even though it was like 80% capacity, with the Canapy the sound reverberated tenfold more then the night game I went to without it.

 

Def an interesting difference to have experienced.

 

What domed arena is doing "55-60 things a year"?

[SoCal Deek]

3 hours ago, Just Jack said:

 

I've thought, before they started Disney parking, that it would be cool if one parking lot could have reserved spots, with each spot have a small lockable storage unit, maybe 5x10.  So you could reserve your spot for the season, and store your chairs, grill, tables, instead of hauling them back and forth each game.  

Ya see? That’s exactly the sort of creative thinking I’m talking about. Plenty of restrooms out in the parking lot and hook ups for electricity. Extra wide spaces for tables, etc. This would be an easy revenue stream for the Bills. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Not sure I saw an answer to my previous question, so I'll ask the architect. Where do you get an extra $500M (30-50% of budget) for making a building with a roof? T

 

That is more than what the Falcons paid for their state-of-the-art retractable. We arent talking retractable here.

The cost depends on a lot of things but you first have to realize the roof impacts more than the roof itself. It changes the design of the entire upper deck as well as the building’s foundations. My figure was purely hypothetical but it will surely be in the many millions, so pick a figure that sounds right to you and then apply the same math that I did. I’m guessing You’ll still end up with a significant cost per ticket surcharge. Then, you’ll have to decide if you think people would pay it. That’s exactly what the stadium developer will do. It’s not magic or emotion. It’s math.

[PromoTheRobot]

I would think a dome would be favored if only for our awesome passing game.

[haroldwaide]

4 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Unless studies show there is more revenue to be made in the long run locating in downtown.

Very good point, but how much "more revenue" would be needed to break even?  How long would it take to reach that point and would the powers that be be willing to wait that long?

[PromoTheRobot]

2 minutes ago, haroldwaide said:

Very good point, but how much "more revenue" would be needed to break even?  How long would it take to reach that point and would the powers that be be willing to wait that long?

 

I hope Terry & Kim have the right people crunching those numbers. It's a big decision.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

5 hours ago, FarrellsFinest said:

I hope its a Dome! Players hate playing in bad weather. It even hurts when its time to bring in free agents. Stats are effected as well.

😣 

Win and complete for the SB and players will go to Buffalo 

 

[BillsCuse]

Just make it with a retractable roof and get the best of both worlds.  And please make bigger bathrooms, the wait can be rediculous.

[PromoTheRobot]

28 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

A substantial increase in ticket prices will come with a new stadium. That goes without saying. If the current facility is refurb'd, then maybe, not so much. If I want to go to a (cough!) 'trendy restaurant' (as has been mentioned here, as a perk of a new facility) I can do that somewhere else. The current Stadium has excellent sight lines, and Arrowhead, and Lambeau field, are doing quite well, in their advanced age. We can do the same here, without breaking the bank of the people who actually support the team.

 

Just curious if you priced tickets at Lambeau or Arrowhead?

 

Quote

(PACKERS) Pricing in 2021 is as follows: end zone seats are $58 for preseason, $118 for regular season; south end zone 700 level seats are $61 for preseason, $121 for regular season; south end zone 600 level seats are $64 for preseason, $129 for regular season; end zone to the 20‐yard line seats are $69 for preseason, $134 for regular season; between the 20-yard lines seats are $74 for preseason, $149 for regular season.

 

 

26 minutes ago, BillsCuse said:

Just make it with a retractable roof and get the best of both worlds.  And please make bigger bathrooms, the wait can be rediculous.

 

Retractable roofs are a waste of money. An extra $300-500MM for what amounts to a sunroof. Better to build something like US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis. Glass roof with walls that open.

Edited April 6, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[Augie]

3 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

A substantial increase in ticket prices will come with a new stadium. That goes without saying. If the current facility is refurb'd, then maybe, not so much. If I want to go to a (cough!) 'trendy restaurant' (as has been mentioned here, as a perk of a new facility) I can do that somewhere else. The current Stadium has excellent sight lines, and Arrowhead, and Lambeau field, are doing quite well, in their advanced age. We can do the same here, without breaking the bank of the people who actually support the team.

 

I love the stadium where it is and how it is. BUT.....as I posted earlier, if my car needs repairs that cost roughly half the cost of a new car, I’m getting a new car. 

 

We’ve been missing @Kirby Jackson for a while, but he has often explained the reasons a new stadium and the revenue streams should be expected. He knows what he’s talking about, and it made sense to me. 

 

I don’t go to an NFL game for fancy restaurants, but a former client/buddy invited us to join him at his season tix in Jacksonville. Not NYC, Dallas, Chicago or LA, but Jacksonville. The seats were outdoors, but attached to an indoor dining area where beer, wine and food were “free”. (Mixed drinks were extra.) This was not hot dogs and Bud Lite, we’re talking sautéed sea bass and quality wines. In Jacksonville! He used it to impress clients and staff, and US, and it worked! Face value of tix were $380 and that was 10-15 years ago.

 

I’ve never been to KC for a game, but hope to correct that!  Lambeau is nothing special other than the surrounding neighborhoods being so cool. The stadium is as Plain Jane as the FSU stadium. 

 

I try to attend one home game and one road game each year. The ticket price is a drop in the bucket compared to airfare, hotels, car rentals, restaurants, etc. I FULLY understand that the burden is on the season ticket holders who will feel the most pain. I get that and I feel their pain. I’ll do my part by paying more when I buy their unused seats when I come to town. 

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Just curious if you priced tickets at Lambeau or Arrowhead?

 

 

 

 

Retractable roofs are a waste of money. An extra $300-500MM for what amounts to a sunroof. Better to build something like US Bank Stadium in Minneapolis. Glass roof with walls that open.

 

The Minneapolis stadium looks AWESOME! I’d love to go to a game there. Great city! The old stadium was a dump but they got a SB that left me wanting.....

 

 

.

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by Augie

[Nitro]

On 3/31/2021 at 11:05 PM, Mr. WEO said:

 

NYS didn't drag its feet blowing money on "The Buffalo Billion".  Total scam.

 

And check out the Lucas Stadium bookings.  After the Final 4, there are 4 non NFL events through next January 10th.  The convention center has  6 events with projected attendance over 4000 through October--and that's with the belief that 7000 will attend "Women of Joy" and 13,500 will be there for "Sweets and Snacks"....  

COVID restrictions.  I work in law enforcement and we have plenty of part time work there.  

[beerme1]

10 hours ago, CountDorkula said:

If the new NYS bill passes we wont have to worry.

 

NYC is going to become a shell of itself with the people and businesses leaving.

 

NYS is in serious trouble.

 

You might think so but the new budget is going to make you think NYS thinks it is a fat cat. 

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, BUFFALOBART said:

A substantial increase in ticket prices will come with a new stadium. That goes without saying. If the current facility is refurb'd, then maybe, not so much. If I want to go to a (cough!) 'trendy restaurant' (as has been mentioned here, as a perk of a new facility) I can do that somewhere else. The current Stadium has excellent sight lines, and Arrowhead, and Lambeau field, are doing quite well, in their advanced age. We can do the same here, without breaking the bank of the people who actually support the team.

 

 

Watch it from home or a bar, for nothing.

9 hours ago, Nitro said:

COVID restrictions.  I work in law enforcement and we have plenty of part time work there.  

 

What are the stadium events you are working at?

[BigBuff423]

I've said it in other places and times so I won't rehash everything that's been said here or where I've piped in at other times. But, I will say this: a dome in this weather, given the current social climate and the age group the team will be appealing to in the next 20 years, along with the Offense slanted rules in the NFL AND that another game is being added in January, just makes too much sense. 

 

Nostalgia is wonderful, but it belongs in the past. A dome for Buffalo is contemporary for all the reasons previously stated and I for one, sincerely hope it happens. 

[Man with No Name]

football wise, a dome makes sense. forget about allen's strong arm. if we are trying to build something akin to peyton manning's colts offense, we are putting ourselves at a huge disadvantage, relatively speaking, when a running team like baltimore comes to our home stadium. 

[SoCal Deek]

4 minutes ago, Man with No Name said:

football wise, a dome makes sense. forget about allen's strong arm. if we are trying to build something akin to peyton manning's colts offense, we are putting ourselves at a huge disadvantage, relatively speaking, when a running team like baltimore comes to our home stadium. 

There’s a very good chance that Allen will be an alumni when you first sit down in a new stadium. OJ was the star when Rich Stadium opened. He played there for five years and the Bills have been there for another four decades. 

[Man with No Name]

11 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

There’s a very good chance that Allen will be an alumni when you first sit down in a new stadium. OJ was the star when Rich Stadium opened. He played there for five years and the Bills have been there for another four decades. 

if we play our cards right and allen turns out, we have him another 15 years. stadium should be up in 5. obviously, it's imperative that we move on it as quickly as possible. 

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, Man with No Name said:

if we play our cards right and allen turns out, we have him another 15 years. stadium should be up in 5. obviously, it's imperative that we move on it as quickly as possible. 

In a normal time, yes, 5 years is reasonable.  Unless Pegula is going to absorb a huge portion of the cost(at least 90%), I don’t know how a new stadium(or even a major refurb) gets done. With Covid, the state and county are both going to cry poor. 

[Mr. WEO]

56 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

You don't attend the games? I do. All of them.

I have not.

 

 

I attend or 2 a year.  For the others, like nearly all other fans, I watch on TV for free. That will still be true with a new stadium.

[corta765]

18 hours ago, QCity said:

I hear this parroted quite a bit. How many extra Winter events do you think a dome will bring that can't already be held in the 19,000 seat Key Bank Arena? What are these 30-40 Winter happenings? A major concert, a boat show, a monster truck rally, hmm maybe that's even too much. They certainly aren't going to heat an entire stadium in the middle of a Buffalo February for a wedding.

 

A think a lot of the public believes in the "build it and they will come" adage, but I think the reality is that it's going to be unused 90% of the year dome or not.

 

I am just telling you what I have read. It would open the possibility for larger tournaments in college sports, Buffalo would be bale to get larger concerts or conventions. In general Buffalo does not have a large enough venue for major things like that. Key Bank is find for most concerts, but there are larger concerts that do stadium type tours that having an indoor venue allow.

 

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but indoor has more potential for use.

[Mr. WEO]

2 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

I am just telling you what I have read. It would open the possibility for larger tournaments in college sports, Buffalo would be bale to get larger concerts or conventions. In general Buffalo does not have a large enough venue for major things like that. Key Bank is find for most concerts, but there are larger concerts that do stadium type tours that having an indoor venue allow.

 

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you, but indoor has more potential for use.

 

 

Why can't the concerts play at an outdoor stadium in Spring/Summer/Fall?  How many conferences are held on the field of any domed football stadium?

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, BUFFALOBART said:

 

I have not.

 

 

Look at the post you responded to again. I quoted Lambeau prices for 2021. Cheapest seats are $118. (I don't know if that's ST or Single Game price.) But that is more than double what the Bills are charging. I believe cheapest ST is $45/game. So holding up a renovated Lambeau as an example for the Bills to keep ticket prices low doesn't jibe.

[TheFunPolice]

Rodgers doesn't seem affected by the weather in Green Bay, nor did Brady in NE or the 90's Bills offense in Buffalo. or Favre in Green Bay, or Big Ben in Pittsburgh, or even Mahomes in KC, where it can get very cold. Elway did OK in Denver. 

 

Heck, Peyton Manning, the "dome QB" had his best statistical season ever (and the best of any QB in NFL history) playing in Denver. 5,477 yards and 55 TD. Imagine if the weather didn't slow him down that season!

 

Snow and cold are overrated as factors that would limit our offense. Wind is the real issue. How many "snow games" do the Bills even have each year, if you think about it? In November it's just as likely to be 50 as it is to be 25 and snowy. Probably more likely. 

 

Now for other teams, it's certainly a mental thing, the snow and the cold. But for home teams up north having an open air stadium does not limit them on any type of consistent basis.

 

A dome is not worth the money UNLESS it allows the team to charge fans more for a more comfortable, controlled environment AND brings a Super Bowl to town. Even then, the extra cost is so astronomical that it doesn't make much sense. 

 

A dome is 100% about the fans, not the players or the game. 

 

Edited April 6, 2021 by TheFunPolice

[LabattBlue]

All this talk of a new convention center is a pipe dream. When I was still working I attended a yearly conference with 10,0000+ attendees.  You know what cities were in the rotation for this conference?  Vegas, San Diego, New Orleans and Orlando. You know why?   Because the destination is part of the reason to attend. Even if Buffalo had a new shiny massive convention center you know what the odds are of them ever attracting a conference like the one I mentioned above?  0.0%. 

Edited April 6, 2021 by BTB

[PromoTheRobot]

6 minutes ago, BTB said:

All this talk of a new convention center is a pipe dream. When I was still working I attended a yearly conference with 10,0000+ attendees.  You know what cities were in the rotation for this conference?  Vegas, San Diego, New Orleans and Orlando. You know why?   Because the destination is part of the reason to attend. Even if Buffalo had a new shiny massive convention center you know what the odds are of them ever attracting a conference like the one I mentioned above?  0.0%. 

 

10K, sure, no Buffalo. But Buffalo often gets regional gatherings. This article cites that conventions and conferences in Buffalo account for 30,000 hotel bookings a year. Is that a lot? I have no idea. But if you divide that number by 52 weeks, 577 hotel bookings a week come from conference and convention business.

 

https://www.wkbw.com/rebound/what-does-the-future-hold-for-the-buffalo-niagara-convention-center

Edited April 6, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[SirAndrew]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Why can't the concerts play at an outdoor stadium in Spring/Summer/Fall?  How many conferences are held on the field of any domed football stadium?

Absolutely, Highmark has hosted several concerts the past few years. There aren’t a ton of stadium concert tours that take place in the winter. There simply aren’t enough domed stadiums to plan an entire stadium winter tour. Additionally, there aren’t many stadium tours these days anyway. I don’t think the future of music is in big stadium shows. Most big stadium acts are retirement age. Who knows how many of those will even be touring by the time we get a new stadium. Stadium concerts are such a rare occurrence, it’s not something I think plays a huge role. 

[RiotAct]

https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/poloncarz-bills-stadium-negotiations-not-going-to-happen-overnight-erie-county-pegulas/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=socialflow&fbclid=IwAR1fVcitSU7bqbncEKHwOTGAHbUmV6n0Z7YaqJvZItFUNpPFNI9fW5FZWrA

 

[HollywoodVin]

On 3/31/2021 at 4:49 PM, May Day 10 said:

Pilot Field was originally designed, ready to remove the green roof and put in another deck and also expand the right field bleachers into more and permanent seating.

 

Buffalo was a finalist, along with Denver, Washington DC, and (Orlando/Miami/St Petersburg) (it was a no secret 1 of the teams was going to be put in a Florida location, it was just a matter of which one.

 

Right around the time that the Finalists were announced, I believe Rich publicly stated reservations about the cost of doing business as an MLB team including the $95 million expansion fee.  I dont believe the Riches really pursued it down to the wire.

 

It would have been a disaster here anyway and they may have been relocated by now.  Buffalo is/was too small for MLB with how the economics of the league are set.  It would be a dream for me and I would almost certainly be a STH.  The corporate dollars are not there, and the RSN fees would not be anywhere near competitive.  The Riches have enough $ to sustain losses, but they don't really seem to be willing to get their noses dirty (were very silent during Sabres and Bills sales).  

 

I still hold out hope for a miracle of a fortune 500 or 2 downtown with a revival and an MLB team.

 

 

 

 

Its a little known story, but apparently before all that, the Riches had dinner with the owner of the SF Giants.  The Giants' owner was bitching about Candlestick Park as well as the weather they had to deal with playing there.   The riches proposed moving or sharing the team in Buffalo and calling them the New York Giants.  There were a few meetings on that but it didnt get too far.

 

 

 

 

Never knew the Giants story before, that’s really interesting.

 

I heard once that MLB offered Rich the Expos before they moved to DC for something like $90 million and he turned it down.  Anyone else hear something similar?

[Mr. WEO]

17 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

10K, sure, no Buffalo. But Buffalo often gets regional gatherings. This article cites that conventions and conferences in Buffalo account for 30,000 hotel bookings a year. Is that a lot? I have no idea. But if you divide that number by 52 weeks, 577 hotel bookings a week come from conference and convention business.

 

https://www.wkbw.com/rebound/what-does-the-future-hold-for-the-buffalo-niagara-convention-center

 

 

That would fill only a fraction of the 3000 new rooms that were opening as new in 2017.    There are at least 8500 rooms in the greater Buffalo area.

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

That would fill only a fraction of the 3000 new rooms that were opening as new in 2017.    There are at least 8500 rooms in the greater Buffalo area.

The only WNY location that’d even come close to a national attraction destination is Niagara Falls, but there seems to be very little interest in putting an indoor stadium/convention venue there. Nobody goes to a convention to look at a grain elevator on their break. They want a location with sightseeing, restaurants and other sorts of activities. The fact the American side of The Falls is so under utilized has always been a mystery to me.

Edited April 7, 2021 by SoCal Deek

[Mr. WEO]

10 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

The only WNY location that’d even come close to a national attraction destination is Niagara Falls, but there seems to be very little interest in putting an indoor stadium/convention venue there. Nobody goes to a convention to look at a grain elevator on their break. They want a location with sightseeing, restaurants and other sorts of activities. The fact the American side of The Falls is so under utilized has always been a mystery to me.

 

NF-USA is a dump.  I went a few years ago to a concert at the Rapids theater a few years ago and it was a sad gauntlet driving through town.  Even the K of C was boarded up.