Another Bills reporter trying to make himself the story

[dwight in philly]

Curious, if Fromm made past comments "inadvertantly " about support for BLM , would he be facing this ? 

Edited August 7, 2020 by dwight in philly

[JMF2006]

Just another pc jerk  trying to force his thoughts on someone else JMHO

[Doc]

20 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

i would say calling this tweet and/or the reaction a mountain is certainly you doing exactly that

It’s actually the opposite: me making a mole hill out of a mountain.

[Warcodered]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

FWIW, here is Marcel LJ's story.  Do you find it unprofessional?

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29615286/jake-fromm-looks-make-amends-elite-white-people-text

I think we're in the "grey fuzzy area" where Twitter is

-a tool reporters use to build following thus enhance their value to employers

-but also a platform for that reporter's personal beliefs and reactions

 

I think MLJ wrote a good professional article about Fromm's interview.  Then in twitter gave his perspective as a black man.   My personal thought was, as the result of 2 months purported "educating myself, staying really close to my friends that are on the other side, having those conversations and really helping out however I can", for Fromm to be asked his opinion "on the state of social inequality in the country" and respond "last thing I want to do is get political in any way" but add the "world would be a better place if we can love God first and then love people" is Weak-Sauce. 

 

There's a lot of space between full-on "Black Lives Matter" and "last thing I want to do is get political in any way".

 

JMO.

That's definitely a professional report keeps his opinions out of it. On his twitter though I think he's blurred the line there because there have been plenty of times where it seemed he was reporting from there.

[Jauronimo]

6 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Not a very good analogy this wasn't a private conversation it was one specifically meant to be put out there for all to see.

Its a perfect analogy.  The insensitive language was used in an email meant for one person who then ratted me out.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

No, he doesn't owe Marcel or the public those things, but if he wants to persuade Marcel LJ (who seems to be one of just a handful of black reporters for national media) and provide evidence to black players on other teams that he's genuinely educating himself on issues of race, one would think in 2 months he could come up with a better answer.

But "a better answer" would be purely subjective to the ears of whoever is listening, no? That may be the problem ultimately, that no answer would make all equally happy in that context?

[NoSaint]

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

It’s actually the opposite: me making a mole hill out of a mountain.

If you can point me to anyone besides you framing it as mountainous...

[HamSandwhich]

9 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

How about “acceptable to someone that was just told that the speaker has been learning important information about the topic”

 

 

Not following what you’re saying. Are you saying that since he’s learning about the topic that he absolutely must describe the situation just the way the reporter wants, and by extension, BLM wants him to say? What the reporter is saying is that he doesn’t have the right NOT to have a position on the subject. His position must be “right” or if it’s wrong, and he has a more nuanced view than the broad strokes and generalizations that BLM wants, Fromm will be raked through the coals. So what is your point exactly? 

Edited August 7, 2020 by HamSandwhich

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

This is the problem with the BLM, they are now the arbiters of what is right and wrong to say. That’s exactly what this is stemming from. Fromm said nothing wrong but to a Supporter of what BLM actually stands for, this is the way they will see this.

 

Maybe the problem isn't with some hypothetical monolithic BLM entity sees it.

 

Fromm said nothing "wrong" from an abstract perspective, but he also said nothing indicating that any learning or broadening of perspective has occurred for him, can we agree on that?

Perhaps if an individual reporter who has spent his life as a black man in this country sees Fromm's response as an inadequate reflection on what he says has been a couple months learning on racial inequities and different perspectives, the problem isn't "the BLM", the problem is, in fact, the response?

[NoSaint]

6 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

But "a better answer" would be purely subjective to the ears of whoever is listening, no? That may be the problem ultimately, that no answer would make all equally happy in that context?

no - there’s ability to review on content as well as structure. The latter is a lot more quantifiable. 
 

I can say something was a well answered question with an opinion I disagree with. Plenty of well constructed arguments that I think are terrible morally. 
 

his answer wasn’t very good structurally whether or not you share his faith. He dodged the topic. He could’ve said “I use my faith as a guide but have learned— insert whatever he wants” instead of “nah it’s good, I’m religious”

Edited August 7, 2020 by NoSaint

[Warcodered]

15 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Its a perfect analogy.  The insensitive language was used in an email meant for one person who then ratted me out.

So the analogy works because something you didn't even say in it lines up with the events? and that somehow negates the other half not lining up at all.

Edited August 7, 2020 by Warcodered

[NoSaint]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe the problem isn't with some hypothetical monolithic BLM entity sees it.

 

Fromm said nothing "wrong" from an abstract perspective, but he also said nothing indicating that any learning or broadening of perspective has occurred for him, can we agree on that?

Perhaps if an individual reporter who has spent his life as a black man in this country sees Fromm's response as an inadequate reflection on what he says has been a couple months learning on racial inequities and different perspectives, the problem isn't "the BLM", the problem is, in fact, the response?

bingo. 

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

But "a better answer" would be purely subjective to the ears of whoever is listening, no? That may be the problem ultimately, that no answer would make all equally happy in that context?

? 
 

I believe in saying “Black Lives Matter”.   The basis of this movement is much needed. 
 

I also believe we’ve, inevitably, reached the point where this movement has become weaponized. 
 

I just offended everyone.  
 

Depending on the reporter, there’s no correct answer in regards to the all encompassing “everything” that surrounds the topic of racial justice in this country.  
 

Marcel Louis-Jacque just happens to reside on the side of the argument that’s socially acceptable at the moment, thus ESPN most assuredly allows him to editorialize while conflating reporting with personal opinion.  
 

Edited August 7, 2020 by SCBills

[DFT]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe the problem isn't with some hypothetical monolithic BLM entity sees it.

 

Fromm said nothing "wrong" from an abstract perspective, but he also said nothing indicating that any learning or broadening of perspective has occurred for him, can we agree on that?

Perhaps if an individual reporter who has spent his life as a black man in this country sees Fromm's response as an inadequate reflection on what he says has been a couple months learning on racial inequities and different perspectives, the problem isn't "the BLM", the problem is, in fact, the response?

You bring up great points and some I don’t agree with, but always appreciate the grace in which you share!  ?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

9 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

That's definitely a professional report keeps his opinions out of it. On his twitter though I think he's blurred the line there because there have been plenty of times where it seemed he was reporting from there.

 

Yeah, that's one of my points:

 

Twitter is problematic, because reporters often use the same account both to promote their professional work, AND to express their personal opinions.

I took it as M L-J doing the latter.

[HamSandwhich]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe the problem isn't with some hypothetical monolithic BLM entity sees it.

 

Fromm said nothing "wrong" from an abstract perspective, but he also said nothing indicating that any learning or broadening of perspective has occurred for him, can we agree on that?

Perhaps if an individual reporter who has spent his life as a black man in this country sees Fromm's response as an inadequate reflection on what he says has been a couple months learning on racial inequities and different perspectives, the problem isn't "the BLM", the problem is, in fact, the response?

Yes, I do see that as wrong. No one has a right to another persons genuflection to their ideology. No matter how noble you think it is. Since when has it become ok to demand someone to tell you what you want them to hear and then cry foul if they don’t do what you want them to? It’s bush league for a reporter, and a general stain on today’s society. What if what Fromm learned is something more nuanced and not does not agree with the general drivel of the BLM. What would have happened if he said he’s against a lot of what they stand for? Would you have applauded him for saying so or would he have been called a racist for having dared have a differing opinion. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Maybe the problem isn't with some hypothetical monolithic BLM entity sees it.

 

Fromm said nothing "wrong" from an abstract perspective, but he also said nothing indicating that any learning or broadening of perspective has occurred for him, can we agree on that?

Perhaps if an individual reporter who has spent his life as a black man in this country sees Fromm's response as an inadequate reflection on what he says has been a couple months learning on racial inequities and different perspectives, the problem isn't "the BLM", the problem is, in fact, the response?

I interpreted what Fromm was saying to mean what the point behind 'loving your neighbor as you would like to be treated' is--namely, if all of us no matter what race or status we have in this world, are still equal before God, then those same differences of race/status could/should not be the basis for unequal treatment by each of us of one another.    

[Rico]

Please bring Mike Rodak back.

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

If you can point me to anyone besides you framing it as mountainous...

Try looking at the subject matter of the first post. That would be a good start.

[GunnerBill]

I vehemently and most strongly disagree with Fromm. We should put loving other people above all else. 

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, Doc said:

Try looking at the subject matter of the first post. That would be a good start.

You calling out FireChans??  Should we call you BigDoc?

 

#GetchaHeatMapsReady

[HamSandwhich]

38 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I’ll continue to echo that I’m not saying the reporters great.

 

but if you spent your last couple months having big meaningful conversations about a major topic that’s playing out around you and then you are asked about that topic at hand... it’s a reasonable expectation to see him say something more meaningful about the issue. Like I said, not the end of the world but good reason to have a questions (which the reporter may or may not have been able to ask)

It’s never a reasonable expectation to expect someone to do what you want them to. Freedom and free will is paramount in this country and the way you are thinking is a direct attack on that.

[NoHuddleKelly12]

15 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

no - there’s ability to review on content as well as structure. The latter is a lot more quantifiable. 
 

I can say something was a well answered question with an opinion I disagree with. Plenty of well constructed arguments that I think are terrible morally. 
 

his answer wasn’t very good structurally whether or not you share his faith. He dodged the topic. He could’ve said “I use my faith as a guide but have learned— insert whatever he wants” instead of “nah it’s good, I’m religious”

Being "religious" means nothing without putting something into actual practice, which is what I took Fromm's point to be in his answer. Loving others does not follow just by defining oneself as "religious." I would agree with your take if all he actually said was "I'm religious." 

[HappyDays]

He made a dumb joke in a private text conversation. If he had made an actual racist statement I would get the outrage but that's not what happened. And I don't expect football players to have poignant things to say about racial issues. This whole "controversy" has been really stupid from the start.

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

You calling out FireChans??  Should we call you BigDoc?

 

#GetchaHeatMapsReady

Nope. MLJ making a mountain out of Fromm’s comments. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Yeah, that's one of my points:

 

Twitter is problematic, because reporters often use the same account both to promote their professional work, AND to express their personal opinions.

I took it as M L-J doing the latter.

Agreed 100%.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Being "religious" means nothing without putting something into actual practice, which is what I took Fromm's point to be in his answer. Loving others does not follow just by defining oneself as "religious." I would agree with your take if all he actually said was "I'm religious." 

 

It was a cop out answer. 

[dwight in philly]

wow.. impressed with all the analysis of a non story! 

[NoSaint]

Just now, HamSandwhich said:

It’s never a reasonable expectation to expect someone to do what you want them to. Freedom and free will is paramount in this country and the way you are thinking is a direct attack on that.

sure thing... the one saying he’s free to answer and people are free to react is the one against freedom

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

I believe in saying “Black Lives Matter”.   The basis of this movement is much needed. ....

......Depending on the reporter, there’s no correct answer in regards to the all encompassing “everything” that surrounds the topic of racial justice in this country.  

 

C'mon man.  If I just told you I spent the last two months "educating myself, staying really close to my friends that are on the other side, having those conversations" and "I grew up kind of seeing it just one way, and seeing the world from a slightly different way has helped me kind of see the background of what's troubling people. I can say that I'm starting to see it, I'm learning", do you really think there isn't a better answer to the question "so what have you learned about social inequality in this country?" than "love God and love people" that would provide some evidence of one's education and learning?

 

Compare and contrast with Josh Allen's response on a Zoom call with reporters:

“What I have been doing is having conversations with teammates and trying to listen and trying to learn. I’ve been in a position where I’ve never been pulled over and I feared for my life and I think that’s a horrible thing that many people of color have to go through that,” Josh Allen said on a zoom call with reporters...... "As far as racial injustices there’s no room for racism."
 

I'm sure there are many people who would not find his entire response "correct" from one or another viewpoint, but it does provide evidence that he's trying to listen to other people's experience and relate it to his own.

 

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

Marcel Louis-Jacque just happens to reside on the side of the argument that’s socially acceptable at the moment, thus ESPN most assuredly allows him to editorialize while conflating reporting with personal opinion.

 

I posted the link to M L-J's  actual ESPN article upthread.  Do you feel it conflates reporting with personal opinion or editorializes?

The twitter account is his personal account

 

 

[Mark Vader]

1 hour ago, nucci said:

what if you don't believe in Jesus?

Then you can go be a Patriots* fan. They'll do anything for the cause.

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, dwight in philly said:

wow.. impressed with all the analysis of a non story! 

A non-story?..  One of our beat reporters just took to Twitter to slander a guy who plays for us.  
 

Whether you feel that’s fair, or not... it’s a story. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

This is disgusting reporting from a guy I really liked up until now. 
 

If I’m Bills Management, I’m making a “friendly” phone call about whether he wants access to our guys in the future or not. 

 

How is this disgusting reporting?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29615286/jake-fromm-looks-make-amends-elite-white-people-text

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Fromm's response was pure crap.  Love God first and people second??  You act like hes quoting the sermon on the mound.   He used his faith as a shield to avoid a difficult question and some act like any string of words remotely spiritual is sacred text.  He basically said "Jesus is just alright with me, jesus is just alright oh yeah".

 

 

I think "sermon on the mound" is a movie that one might find in the same aisle as "On Golden Blonde" and "Romancing the Bone". 

 

 

The "Sernon on the Mount" is different. 

 

Fromm's response was just that, his response to a question.  The reporters response show's he as judgemental as most. 

 

If you don't know want to know what people think you should not ask them. 

[muppy]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

All this post says to me is that you can dodge a question with some vaguely spiritual crap and that will be above reproach for many people.

 

MLJ: What do you have to say about throwing 6 INTs today in a blowout loss?

 

Fromm:  Thou shalt protect thy father and honor no one above him unless it beith me, thy sweet Lord!

 

MLJ: That's a ***** answer.

 

Bills Fans: Marcel is a heretic!

ridiculous analogy.  Just because you dont buy his comment or agree with it doesnt make it vaguely spiritual crap. It was in context and backed by scripture which millions of people recognize as truth. Thats not Jake Fromms problem that MLJ doesnt get it or agree  or anyone else for that matter

Edited August 7, 2020 by Muppy

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

A non-story?..  One of our beat reporters just took to Twitter to slander a guy who plays for us. 

 

What do you feel is the slander?  "someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed."

L-J accurately reported what Fromm said for ESPN, then stated his personal opinion on twitter that as the result of 2 months discussing and learning, he found Fromm's response "unacceptable" (to him, I presume).

 

Where is the untruth?  It's L-J's personal opinion. 

[NoHuddleKelly12]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It was a cop out answer. 

I respect that's your opinion. Others including me may disagree, which was my point upthread concerning the subjective nature of what in that context would have been an "acceptable" answer. I'm glad all of us get the chance to go back and forth over it though.   

[jwhit34]

The post on ESPN by MLJ was much more complete:

 

 

Buffalo Bills quarterback Jake Fromm insists that text messages in which he said "only elite white people" should be able to purchase guns are not indicative of his character, nor do they represent the way he was raised.

"That's not where my heart is," Fromm said Friday, speaking to local media for the first time since screenshots of the conversation emerged in June. "The one thing that I want to do here on this earth is love God and love people, and I fell short of that. I want to make amends and really be better from here on out so that I can earn their trust and really bring something to this football team."

 

He quoted Fromm further:

 

Fromm called the text a product of his "lack of perspective, being naive and being young and immature." He said jokes or comments like that were not an occurrence from him growing up and "were never said" in his household.

"I made a mistake and I'm going to own up to it, but that's not indicative of who I am," Fromm said, "and I promise you that is not where my heart is at."

 

And there's even more in the post I encourage all to read it. I commend MLJ for the including all of that in his post, his post was a gazillion times more objective than the Tweet.  I think it's unfortunate in our "Twitter limited # of character world" that the Tweets end up > the actual reporting, which in this case MLJ did right. 

 

Link:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/29615286/jake-fromm-looks-make-amends-elite-white-people-text

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by jwhit34

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

C'mon man.  If I just told you I spent the last two months "educating myself, staying really close to my friends that are on the other side, having those conversations" and "I grew up kind of seeing it just one way, and seeing the world from a slightly different way has helped me kind of see the background of what's troubling people. I can say that I'm starting to see it, I'm learning", do you really think there isn't a better answer to the question "so what have you learned about social inequality in this country?" than "love God and love people" that would provide some evidence of one's education and learning?

 

Compare and contrast with Josh Allen's response on a Zoom call with reporters:

“What I have been doing is having conversations with teammates and trying to listen and trying to learn. I’ve been in a position where I’ve never been pulled over and I feared for my life and I think that’s a horrible thing that many people of color have to go through that,” Josh Allen said on a zoom call with reporters...... "As far as racial injustices there’s no room for racism."
 

I'm sure there are many people who would not find his entire response "correct" from one or another viewpoint, but it does provide evidence that he's trying to listen to other people's experience and relate it to his own.

 

 

I posted the link to M L-J's  actual ESPN article upthread.  Do you feel it conflates reporting with personal opinion or editorializes?

The twitter account is his personal account

 

 

MLJ clearly “reports” from his Twitter account.   
 

That’s your decision to make, not the reporter (IMO).  If MLJ simply reported those comments, like reporters used to do, we’d all be free to draw our own conclusions on whether we’re ok with it or not.  

I guess the semantics debate revolves around how we view Twitter accounts for reporters, along with how said reporter uses their account. 

 

[ehfeuh57]

not a good look