How McDermott and Frazier confuse offenses

[Buffalo716]

25 minutes ago, billsfan_34 said:

Good catch!

Yeah I may know the game of football inside and out forward and backward

 

But computers not super savvy. So I couldn't find a pic of the bills in that formation but I could McDermott's Panthers squad lol

 

And as I said the premise of the Dual A Gap look is the same and McDermott been doing it as long as anyone around today. He learned from the legend Jim Johnson who was a genius 

 

The combination between Frazier and McDermott is honestly bread and butter. McDermott's a little bit more aggressive , Frazier's a little bit more toned back

 

And the scheme turns out to be a super complex yet fluid organism that swarms the football like a hive of bees

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

I would expect Frazier to be getting another HC chance soon because he is gonna tear it up

 

Don't see that happening. 61 year old (by the end of the 2020 season) retread with a low key personality? Good luck selling that your fans.

 

Frazier is here as long as McDermott wants him if Frazier were say 7 or 8 years younger, however, he'd have been gone this past offseason.

[machine gun kelly]

10 hours ago, JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS said:

why are we sharing this with the world exactly?

Joe, I’m sure you know every offensive coordinator in the league knows these coverages, it’s just how it’s called, when they are disguising, bluffing, attacking that makes Frazier, McD, and the players great.

[machine gun kelly]

716, thanks for starting this thread.  It sparked a great deal of discussion by the crew.

[Victory Formation]

Now correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Palms/Quarter coverage/Cover 4/Cover 6 vulnerable against the run? Seems like a great package in obvious passing situations as our secondary can sit back and ball hawk but running teams can punish us on the ground and if that happens enough then they can start moving the ball on us via play action. We were still ranked 10th in rushing yards though so clearly Frazier/McD do a great job in getting our defense in the right formations. So I’d say quarters is a nice package to run in a passing league but will likely not be used as frequently against the New England Patriots and Tennessee Titans of the world.

[atlbillsfan1975]

@Buffalo716 did you come across anytime when McD or Frazier used a 5-1-5 defense?

A couple of player additions this offseason have me wondering if we may see this alignment. We have a few d linemen now who can play multiple spots along the front. This d is also something I could see useful against teams with mobile QB’s and help against the RPO.

Edited May 10, 2020 by atlbillsfan1975

[thebandit27]

11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Worth saying though that Frazier was a Jim Johnson guy as well as McDermott. He did then have experience in that Dungy Tampa 2 scheme as well and has run bits of both in his career as a DC. While I have no doubt McDermott remains the architect of the scheme I think Frazier has more input than most imagine. As a play caller I think he is decent but when he gets stuck in a rut I think it is because his tendency when teams start to move the ball on him is to get more conservative and predictable (the idea being simplify the calls let the players play fast). 

Remember that Frazier also played in Buddy Ryan’s 46 with the 85 Bears.

 

He can adapt.

[Punching Bag]

11 hours ago, JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS said:

why are we sharing this with the world exactly?

 

11 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, NFL opponents know this *****, too.

 

Just maybe.

 

 

Well just maybe teams like Bengals who will not spend money might come here and learn something.

 

 

 

Maybe.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

29 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

 

Well just maybe teams like Bengals who will not spend money might come here and learn something.

 

 

 

Maybe.

 

Uh. No.

 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Now correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Palms/Quarter coverage/Cover 4/Cover 6 vulnerable against the run? Seems like a great package in obvious passing situations as our secondary can sit back and ball hawk but running teams can punish us on the ground and if that happens enough then they can start moving the ball on us via play action. We were still ranked 10th in rushing yards though so clearly Frazier/McD do a great job in getting our defense in the right formations. So I’d say quarters is a nice package to run in a passing league but will likely not be used as frequently against the New England Patriots and Tennessee Titans of the world.

As I said earlier football is a chess match.. throughout all four quarters in 60 minutes

 

This isn't the only defensive play call that they use. It just became one of their most effective passing play calls

 

Versus Tennessee there was a lot more crashing the line of scrimmage to take away the run

[Happy]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Don't see that happening. 61 year old (by the end of the 2020 season) retread with a low key personality? Good luck selling that your fans.

 

Frazier is here as long as McDermott wants him if Frazier were say 7 or 8 years younger, however, he'd have been gone this past offseason.

 

I think Frazier is entirely too conservative to be a HC.  If this was 1986 or so, maybe.  Not now.  That said, I think Frazier is the perfect compliment to run what McD has constructed on the defense, and mentioned that earlier up the thread.

[billsfan_34]

6 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yeah I may know the game of football inside and out forward and backward

 

But computers not super savvy. So I couldn't find a pic of the bills in that formation but I could McDermott's Panthers squad lol

 

And as I said the premise of the Dual A Gap look is the same and McDermott been doing it as long as anyone around today. He learned from the legend Jim Johnson who was a genius 

 

The combination between Frazier and McDermott is honestly bread and butter. McDermott's a little bit more aggressive , Frazier's a little bit more toned back

 

And the scheme turns out to be a super complex yet fluid organism that swarms the football like a hive of bees

I have loved the McD/Frazier pairing from day 1. Now it is time to put our boot on other teams throats.

[ColoradoBills]

19 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

If you have the personnel to run palms coverage. Which 95% of the NFL doesn't...

 

You are at a strict X's and O's advantage. As I said in the OP, the modern NFL offense stretches you vertically and horizontally

 

Cover 4 has long been used to counteract teams vertically. But it's horizontally challenged

 

The palms coverage gives the bills the best possible way of counteracting teams vertically and horizontally on the same play

 

This is a reason why the bills did not give up any bombs really. The base quarters of palms is amazing against verticals, and when it shifts to its man elements, Tres reaction speed allows him to get to out breaking routes at will

 

I have some other questions if you're game, but these are more about current personnel and what you see about the RCB position.

 

Do you see a capable (or one notch above capable) RCB on the team right now?

Could one of the younger guys still be developing to become that?  I bring this up about the earlier comments about the complexity of the defense.

Can Josh Norman get back to something of his former self being back in McDermott's system and could he be a 1 year stop gap?

[boater]

19 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

It's no surprise the safety they took in their draft from a small school was heavily scouted by Buffalo and rumored to be our pick if he was on the board.  Belichick knows great defenses revolve around great safeties that's why he's always had them.

That bastard!

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I have some other questions if you're game, but these are more about current personnel and what you see about the RCB position.

 

Do you see a capable (or one notch above capable) RCB on the team right now?

Could one of the younger guys still be developing to become that?  I bring this up about the earlier comments about the complexity of the defense.

Can Josh Norman get back to something of his former self being back in McDermott's system and could he be a 1 year stop gap?

I can try to answer a few of these-

 

Yes there are a few capable options right now. I expect whichever of Norman/Wallace show better to slide into that spot, my guess is Norman will start but we will see a lot of Wallace to spell him esp on run downs. IIRC Wallace played injured last year and should hopefully bounce back to form

 

I don't know much about the rookies but they have been making it a point to bring along Neal in the big nickel package plus he's a ST staple, I do not know if they are trying to carve out a larger role for him but they seem to trust him. Taron Johnson however imo is a stud. The staff plays him in big spots, he understands the system and where he fits in, he is a very solid tackler in run support for his size...he does a TON every time he goes in. I really like Johnson and even though I think he probably lacks some of the elite athleticism to play outside (not quite smooth/fluid enough lower body transitions etc) the dude is GAME. And easily smart enough to make a starting spot for himself depending on the % of time they run base 

 

I think they Norman will start at CB2 and he will enjoy the Edmunds shading w/safety help and will play off LOS majority of the time. He is still quick enough but doesn't have the same physical edge to engage and throw wideouts off timing-wise which is just what happens when DBs get older. I think he can still be effective and is a wholly different player at this point than Wallace which is what makes it such an interesting signing to me

[Buffalo716]

19 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Safety play... /end

 

The ground that our safeties can cover and the understanding of what they need to do, allows us to disguise the majority of our coverages where a quarterback must decipher what we're actually doing post-snap.

 

I've watched Bill Belichick go into deep detail of how difficult it is to attack our defense and it all revolves around our safeties. I know Belichick is in love with Micah Hyde.

 

It's no surprise the safety they took in their draft from a small school was heavily scouted by Buffalo and rumored to be our pick if he was on the board.  Belichick knows great defenses revolve around great safeties that's why he's always had them.

 

The problem with that is Dugger isn't some covering specialist right now, actually a long way to go

 

He will be an in the box safety or a sub package LBr for a few years at least . He is nothing like a Hyde

 

He is an enforcer at this point with great speed but his coverage skills are lacking

 

McDermott wanted him to play the box role in his big nickel, not cover half the field in coverage

[ColoradoBills]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I can try to answer a few of these-

 

Yes there are a few capable options right now. I expect whichever of Norman/Wallace show better to slide into that spot, my guess is Norman will start but we will see a lot of Wallace to spell him esp on run downs. IIRC Wallace played injured last year and should hopefully bounce back to form

 

I don't know much about the rookies but they have been making it a point to bring along Neal in the big nickel package plus he's a ST staple, I do not know if they are trying to carve out a larger role for him but they seem to trust him. Taron Johnson however imo is a stud. The staff plays him in big spots, he understands the system and where he fits in, he is a very solid tackler in run support for his size...he does a TON every time he goes in. I really like Johnson and even though I think he probably lacks some of the elite athleticism to play outside (not quite smooth/fluid enough lower body transitions etc) the dude is GAME. And easily smart enough to make a starting spot for himself depending on the % of time they run base 

 

I think they Norman will start at CB2 and he will enjoy the Edmunds shading w/safety help and will play off LOS majority of the time. He is still quick enough but doesn't have the same physical edge to engage and throw wideouts off timing-wise which is just what happens when DBs get older. I think he can still be effective and is a wholly different player at this point than Wallace which is what makes it such an interesting signing to me

 

Thanks for answering 808.  I was generally thinking the same thing but there was so much CB2 talk around draft time I was questioning

myself missing something big.  I have a limited expertise on this but I too thought the young guys looked like they were developing pretty good.

[Buffalo716]

32 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I have some other questions if you're game, but these are more about current personnel and what you see about the RCB position.

 

Do you see a capable (or one notch above capable) RCB on the team right now?

Could one of the younger guys still be developing to become that?  I bring this up about the earlier comments about the complexity of the defense.

Can Josh Norman get back to something of his former self being back in McDermott's system and could he be a 1 year stop gap?

I've Always believed that as a player if you aren't progressing, you are regressing... Especially in the NFL

 

Between Levi, Norman , and Gaines they should atleast be able to hold it down adequately by committee based on game plan and opposing WRs

 

Levi should still be progressing in the system tho he will always have some physical limitations. He has a good feel for the game and good instincts. He just has to play off the ball a lot because he doesn't have the speed to press

 

Norman should have 1 year left. What made Norman so good in his prime was his closing burst and instincts just like Tre.. unfortunately he has started to lose some of that closing Burst BUT a reunion with McDermott should give him the thing he's been missing. Scheme fit

 

McDermott and Frazier are so good at scheming they can draw a trap. Basically a play were they will dictate where the ball will go. 

 

So on 3rd and 9 they can draw a trap play to basically make the quarterback go where they want him to go, short of the sticks

 

And all Levi or Norman has to do is make the tackle 6 yards downfield. 

 

Norman and Tre have both been all pros in Sean's system so I wouldn't be surprised to see Norman play well for a season. Maybe 3-4 picks

[Don Otreply]

Oh sure, Ho ahead and tell everyone...

[MILFHUNTER#518]

20 hours ago, CNYfan said:

I think Diagram 1 shows the Patriots?

Carolina D vs Chargers O

[MILFHUNTER#518]

9 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

716, thanks for starting this thread.  It sparked a great deal of discussion by the crew.

Refreshing to read about my original reason for coming here years ago, football. PPP is just so exhausting.

 

I was always a hockey guy, the Bills sucking and getting screwed so much made me as a young lad lose interest. I have learned so damned much from threads like this over the years, that people think I played football or coached LOL. 

 

Seriously, you do not realize how much Football is a thinking man's game until you learn the X'S & O'S, the game within the game so to speak. I had no idea how smart you have to be to be an offensive lineman, for example. They have so many checks they have to go through pre-snap, it boggles my mind. The game is just so much more fun to watch after you get even a mild grasp of what is going on with both sides of the ball, then you can truly appreciate the sport. 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

The problem with that is Dugger isn't some covering specialist right now, actually a long way to go

 

He will be an in the box safety or a sub package LBr for a few years at least . He is nothing like a Hyde

 

He is an enforcer at this point with great speed but his coverage skills are lacking

 

McDermott wanted him to play the box role in his big nickel, not cover half the field in coverage

He’s like the A Williams prototype, he’ll find his way into the field one way or another imo

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He’s like the A Williams prototype, he’ll find his way into the field one way or another imo

For sure there are niches for guys like that but he isn't Ed Reed don't let him fool you

 

Aaron Williams was actually a really good football player. He played with passion , strength, tenacity and awareness

 

I thought the day we drafted him he should be plugged in at safety. I thought he was the best or second-best safety prospect in the class

 

He just didn't have the speed to cover on the outside and the bills put a square peg in a round hole

 

At safety he was a natural..  he could cover, hit, had ball skills

 

What he didn't have was discipline, he was a reckless player and that was his undoing

[Buffalo716]

6 hours ago, MILFHUNTER#518 said:

Refreshing to read about my original reason for coming here years ago, football. PPP is just so exhausting.

 

I was always a hockey guy, the Bills sucking and getting screwed so much made me as a young lad lose interest. I have learned so damned much from threads like this over the years, that people think I played football or coached LOL. 

 

Seriously, you do not realize how much Football is a thinking man's game until you learn the X'S & O'S, the game within the game so to speak. I had no idea how smart you have to be to be an offensive lineman, for example. They have so many checks they have to go through pre-snap, it boggles my mind. The game is just so much more fun to watch after you get even a mild grasp of what is going on with both sides of the ball, then you can truly appreciate the sport. 

At the highest levels. The NFL,  division 1 football.. it really is a thinking man's game. 

 

Sure the physical tools are great but it's what's between the ears that separates a good vs. Great player

 

I could write 200 pages about the intricacies and nuances of the sport. The chess match which takes place

 

being my biggest passion throughout my life it's amazing to think all the football knowledge I've learned , retained ,passed on to others .. and am still learning because you're never done learning

 

I remember my high school coach letting me draw plays on a whiteboard because I was just on a different level lol

[Don Otreply]

On 5/9/2020 at 8:41 PM, Florida Bills Fanatic said:

Nice thread but I always thought it was more about the tequila McD had put in the visiting team's Gatorade.

It was Everclear...

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

It was Everclear...

If he was really smart and funny.. he would have given the other team PB&j and psychedelic mushroom sandwiches

Edited May 11, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Don Otreply]

19 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

If he was really smart and funny.. he would have given the other team PB&j and psychedelic mushroom sandwiches

That would be pretty damn funny to watch...

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

That would be pretty damn funny to watch...

I can hear the mic'd up already.. 

 

Darnold-(surfer voice) dudeeee, I feel funny, my hand is like oozing through the ball

 

Coach gase- dammit Darnold, you're playing like you're on drugs today(googly eyed)

 

Darnold-relax mannnn the universe is like bigger than all of us. Eat some of these sandwiches sean made for us and just vibe bro

Edited May 11, 2020 by Buffalo716

[Lazy]

Great thread OP! 

Love seeing/learning the complexities inside the game.

Thanks

[Buffalo716]

20 minutes ago, Lazy said:

Great thread OP! 

Love seeing/learning the complexities inside the game.

Thanks

No problem

 

Why I come here besides talking Bills

[Ralonzo]

2 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

being my biggest passion throughout my life it's amazing to think all the football knowledge I've learned , retained ,passed on to others .. and am still learning because you're never done learning

Any insight on the Philly game? I only caught parts of it but it was the one game where the Bills D got beat and beat bad. Which was surprising because the Eagles mostly didn’t look special any other time I caught them.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 5/9/2020 at 6:44 PM, Buffalo716 said:

Diagram 2 shows Sean's favorite coverage from last year. Palms coverage out of a cover 4 look

 

Palms coverage is a very advanced coverage that most NFL teams don't even run its so complex. It all comes down to the awareness and the communication between corner and safety tandems

 

It's a quarters look with man elements depending on the offensive look.. where out routes are cover 4 killers , Palms counteracts that

 

Outside corners in quarters coverage CONVERT to MAN on slot out routes. Changing from quarters coverage to man.

 

The safeties in quarters coverage THEN became man up on the outside receivers

 

This is a very complex design but smart corners like Tre and Levi and Safeties like Hyde and Poyer allow us to execute this advance coverage almost flawlessly

 

Tres reaction and closing speed is Elite and this plays right into his hands

 

Now defenses don't know how to attack Buffalo's cover 4 because the green areas ARE NO LONGER GREEN

 

The slot wide receivers dictate what technique our corners and safeties will play

 

if this so complex, how is it that Rex's defense confused our own defense more than the other teams offense?

 

i know rex is terrible coach but i always thought his defense was so complex that the players just couldn't do it. (Also thank God rex is not here, just needed to say that ?)

 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Buffalo Barbarian

[hjnick]

12 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Thanks for answering 808.  I was generally thinking the same thing but there was so much CB2 talk around draft time I was questioning

myself missing something big.  I have a limited expertise on this but I too thought the young guys looked like they were developing pretty good.

I think all the CB2 talk was because Norman only has a 1 year deal and alot of ppl here soured on Levi Wallace last year.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

if this so complex, how is it that Rex's defense confused our own defense more than the other teams offense?

 

i know rex is terrible coach but i always thought his defense was so complex that the players just couldn't do it. (Also thank God rex is not here, just needed to say that ?)

 

 

 

Part of it is this was year 3 of the system. McDermott did not come here and start playing some of the more advanced combination coverages straight away, or at least they were smaller parts of the D. They have added wrinkles to what they do each year. 

 

EDIT: though I will also say I was never that convinced Rex's defense was "too complicated" so much as it had become outdated and it was poorly coached by a guy who was half assing it.

Edited May 11, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Big Turk]

McDermott and Frazier defenses are a combination of simple concepts leading to complex coverages, players that pay attention to very minute details through film study and hard work and players that execute the scheme nearly flawlessly most games.

 

I mean in a league where 300 yard passing games are almost routine, the Bills many times don't even allow 200 yards.  It is honestly crazy to watch and see a team hit a 20 yard pass play on us and then be like "Wow, that was a big play" but then at the end of the game the team has like 168 yard passing total.  Almost like we are so used to seeing virtually nothing from a team that anything more than 15 yards is a big play against us.

5 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

if this so complex, how is it that Rex's defense confused our own defense more than the other teams offense?

 

i know rex is terrible coach but i always thought his defense was so complex that the players just couldn't do it. (Also thank God rex is not here, just needed to say that ?)

 

 

 

It is complex for other teams to decipher but the Bills have very specific rules they follow when running it which makes it easier for them to do it properly.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

5 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

if this so complex, how is it that Rex's defense confused our own defense more than the other teams offense?

 

i know rex is terrible coach but i always thought his defense was so complex that the players just couldn't do it. (Also thank God rex is not here, just needed to say that ?)

 

 

 

Rex's defense had a lot of checks, if you screw one up good luck.  .  Quicker snapping offenses will have success snapping off motion/jet-motion because of confusion for the LBs and Safeties.  It works alright if you have good man corners on the outside - you take away their best WRs.  But in a more spread out age with 3 WR sets being common - it's a tough sell.  It becomes more of a tough sell when the LBs and Safeties aren't particularly talented.  The linemen didn't seem to buy into what their role was either.

45 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

McDermott and Frazier defenses are a combination of simple concepts leading to complex coverages, players that pay attention to very minute details through film study and hard work and players that execute the scheme nearly flawlessly most games.

 

I mean in a league where 300 yard passing games are almost routine, the Bills many times don't even allow 200 yards.  It is honestly crazy to watch and see a team hit a 20 yard pass play on us and then be like "Wow, that was a big play" but then at the end of the game the team has like 168 yard passing total.  Almost like we are so used to seeing virtually nothing from a team that anything more than 15 yards is a big play against us.

 

It is complex for other teams to decipher but the Bills have very specific rules they follow when running it which makes it easier for them to do it properly.

 

Most of the big plays allowed this year were on screens, and missed tackles.  I remember poyer screwed up that one play in philly.  But either way, they aren't chucking up deep balls and completing them - even wallace does a good job preventing those with his size/athleticism. 

[Buffalo716]

10 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

if this so complex, how is it that Rex's defense confused our own defense more than the other teams offense?

 

i know rex is terrible coach but i always thought his defense was so complex that the players just couldn't do it. (Also thank God rex is not here, just needed to say that ?)

 

 

Rex's scheme was all over the place . He had too many players playing different techniques and putting square pegs in round holes

 

Sean's defense has complex coverages in the back half but he can simplify it down to 1 read. They only need to key on 1 guy not 3 different factors

[Jauronimo]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Part of it is this was year 3 of the system. McDermott did not come here and start playing some of the more advanced combination coverages straight away, or at least they were smaller parts of the D. They have added wrinkles to what they do each year. 

 

EDIT: though I will also say I was never that convinced Rex's defense was "too complicated" so much as it had become outdated and it was poorly coached by a guy who was half assing it.

Yup.  Poorly coached, poorly executed, and no communication between front office and coach could not have helped.  Rex/Rob couldn't get the call in and get guys lined up on either side of the ball. 

 

I think this sums up Rex's tenure. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000764204/article/rex-ryan-buffalo-bills-10men-fail-cost-us-the-game

 

With the playoffs on the line, we have 10 men on the field because Rex subbed in a guy Whaley released during the week.

 

[Punching Bag]

38 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Yup.  Poorly coached, poorly executed, and no communication between front office and coach could not have helped.  Rex/Rob couldn't get the call in and get guys lined up on either side of the ball. 

 

I think this sums up Rex's tenure. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000764204/article/rex-ryan-buffalo-bills-10men-fail-cost-us-the-game

 

With the playoffs on the line, we have 10 men on the field because Rex subbed in a guy Whaley released during the week.

 

 

Page is only partially there.  Maybe Rex moved to work for NFL.com in charge of server quality.

[letsgoteam]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Yup.  Poorly coached, poorly executed, and no communication between front office and coach could not have helped.  Rex/Rob couldn't get the call in and get guys lined up on either side of the ball. 

 

I think this sums up Rex's tenure. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000764204/article/rex-ryan-buffalo-bills-10men-fail-cost-us-the-game

 

With the playoffs on the line, we have 10 men on the field because Rex subbed in a guy Whaley released during the week.

 

Do you happen to know who the player was?