A Compilation of Some of Josh's Bad? Throws

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

8 minutes ago, njbuff said:

 

I am not going to engage here.

 

I will just say..............

 

If you and the other Allen non-believers didn't think that Allen improved significantly from year one to year two..................

 

I don't know what to tell you.

 

The Biscuit dude is like the leader of the "Allen non-believers".

[Codyny13]

Late bloomer in most senses when it comes to his football acumen, but, he’s smart, mobile, coachable, has incredible arm talent, a leader, a learner, a gamer, competitive, has ideal size, and all the intangibles. As long as he continues to work at it, I think he’s the answer. It’s just not immediate like a few other guys that played in power 5 conferences.

[Charles Romes]

Mahomes was way off for 3 and half quarters in the Super Bowl, and made a few plays with his rocket arm at the end to take home the title.  Mahomes Super Bowl MVP performance is well within Allen’s reach, and he should be able to surpass that level most games. There will always be huge plays for Allen to make because of his arm and running ability. He just needs to make 1-2 huge plays a game. 

[Mango]

2 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

I am not going to engage here.

 

I will just say..............

 

If you and the other Allen non-believers didn't think that Allen improved significantly from year one to year two..................

 

I don't know what to tell you.

Honest question. If Allen returned the entire offense from 2019 with zero changes or improvements, other than his own, what do you predict his 2020 stat line is? What metrics are improved and by how much? 
 

(note: none of this is to say he has not improved or will not improve)

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Mango said:

Honest question. If Allen returned the entire offense from 2019 with zero changes or improvements, other than his own, what do you predict his 2020 stat line is? What metrics are improved and by how much? 
 

(note: none of this is to say he has not improved or will not improve)

Who cares? Why would anyone waste time pondering a player’s  improvement in a vacuum?

[Richard Noggin]

12 hours ago, Rock'em Sock'em said:

Diggs would have  caught 50% of those. ?

That's the spirit.

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Who cares? Why would anyone waste time pondering a player’s  improvement in a vacuum?

Because it’s important to get an idea of an individuals progression outside of their supporting cast. 

 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Mango said:

Because it’s important to get an idea of an individuals progression outside of their supporting cast. 

 

How did Pat Mahomes’ stats look from 2018-2019 returning basically the same roster?

[John from Riverside]

16 minutes ago, Mango said:

Because it’s important to get an idea of an individuals progression outside of their supporting cast. 

 

That is just hard to guage when you have players dropping the most passes in the league.

 

I mean.....I get the naysayers..they want Tom Brady type accuracy....I dont know that Josh ever gets to that point BUT it is fair to say that his pass catchers have not been the greatest........then Smoke and Bease come to Buffalo and have career years....to me that DOES say something.

 

He is a work in progress.....he progressed from year one to year to.....as long as he keeps progressing

[Mango]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

How did Pat Mahomes’ stats look from 2018-2019 returning basically the same roster?

You are dodging the question and shifting the goal posts. But I think you already know that. 
 

To answer your question, his stat line dropped from historically great to MVP conversation. 
 

Again, we should try to get an idea of Josh’s improvements outside of his supporting cast. That isn’t an argument against him actually improving, because he did. It’s not a hard line, and is a worthy point/conversation. 
 

Maybe the better question is, what’s the increased offensive production with the addition of Diggs, and we get the same Josh Allen? Points, yards, etc? 

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

That is just hard to guage when you have players dropping the most passes in the league.

 

I mean.....I get the naysayers..they want Tom Brady type accuracy....I dont know that Josh ever gets to that point BUT it is fair to say that his pass catchers have not been the greatest........then Smoke and Bease come to Buffalo and have career years....to me that DOES say something.

 

He is a work in progress.....he progressed from year one to year to.....as long as he keeps progressing

I can get behind most of this. He definitely improved and there were some issues with supporting cast. 
 

I was more just responding to the blanket statement that seemed to come off as, “you’re with Josh or you’re against him”. The offense needs a large leap from a few positions to be mentioned in the conversation of consistantly above average. QB is one of those positions. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

You are dodging the question and shifting the goal posts. But I think you already know that. 
 

To answer your question, his stat line dropped from historically great to MVP conversation. 
 

Again, we should try to get an idea of Josh’s improvements outside of his supporting cast. That isn’t an argument against him actually improving, because he did. It’s not a hard line, and is a worthy point/conversation. 
 

Maybe the better question is, what’s the increased offensive production with the addition of Diggs, and we get the same Josh Allen? Points, yards, etc? 

No. You posited a hypothetical wherein Allen returns the 2019 offense in 2020 and wondered what his improvement might be. I responded with an actual example of the best young QB in the league, returning basically the same roster, whose stats did not improve...illustrating my original point that there’s no point in looking for some non-team dependent statistical benchmarks you can point to as a referendum on a QB’s trajectory.

^said point a lot

[GreggTX]

Why  bother with all of this nonsense? His ball placement is highly inconsistent even on short throws and a large percentage of his deep balls miss by 10 ' or more. Trust your eyes. Want our receivers to drop fewer passes? Try putting the ball on target. No receiver has an easier time bringing in passes if the ball is poorly placed.

 

Josh Allen is an elite scrambler with great arm strength, but in the pocket, he plays like a backup. That said, he continues to improve. I'm hoping he can do what Tannehill did in Tennessee.  My greatest fear is that he will do just enough to stick around a while and hold this team back like Winston did in Tampa. We have a good coaching staff and I'd hate to lose them because they refuse to part ways with him if his upward trend doesn't take him very far. He's a good person, hard worker and good leader and I'm pulling for him. Keeping my fingers crossed. He has another weapon now, but needs a better OL and TE before he can hit his full potential.

Edited April 12, 2020 by GreggTX

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No. You posited a hypothetical wherein Allen returns the 2019 offense in 2020 and wondered what his improvement might be. I responded with an actual example of the best young QB in the league, returning basically the same roster, whose stats did not improve...illustrating my original point that there’s no point in looking for some non-team dependent statistical benchmarks you can point to as a referendum on a QB’s trajectory.

^said point a lot

Your big rebuttal (without actually addressing the question) is that Mahomes had an MVP like year after only starting 14 games, was top 10 in every metric, won SB MVP, and that was such a decline from having an MVP year and being top 5 in every metric, with no super bowl....that we shouldn’t try and get an idea of what our young QB’s individual growth/expectations are (outside of added talent) as he tries to establish himself in the NFL? 

This is the hill you are going to die on? Rather than just say, I would expect XYZ after another year of development if all things remain equal?

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

Your big rebuttal (without actually addressing the question) is that Mahomes had an MVP like year after only starting 14 games, was top 10 in every metric, won SB MVP, and that was such a decline from having an MVP year and being top 5 in every metric, with no super bowl....that we shouldn’t try and get an idea of what our young QB’s individual growth/expectations are (outside of added talent) as he tries to establish himself in the NFL? 

This is the hill you are going to die on? Rather than just say, I would expect XYZ after another year of development if all things remain equal?

Well if we go by Mahomes we can expect little improvement or slight decline with same personnel. 
 

Or we could just admit it’s an exercise in futility. Growth is not linear. Different quarterbacks improve at different rates. 

 

 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Well if we go by Mahomes we can expect little improvement or slight decline with same personnel. 
 

Or we could just admit it’s an exercise in futility. Growth is not linear. Different quarterbacks improve at different rates. 

 

 

So don’t be surprised if we don’t see any growth? Because Mahomes went from a historical to elite year? 
 

Or don’t be surprised if we don’t any gains because growth is not linear? 
 

I am just traveling down the path you are taking me on...

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

So don’t be surprised if we don’t see any growth? Because Mahomes went from a historical to elite year? 
 

Or don’t be surprised if we don’t any gains because growth is not linear? 
 

I am just traveling down the path you are taking me on...

Lol. Are we experiencing roster stasis? Did I say Allen’s career is likely to mirror Mahomes? 

 

I expect Allen to improve with the addition of Diggs and a second year behind the same offensive line, similar as I expected improvement from his rookie to second when they overhauled a bad offensive roster. You want some arbitrary rate of statistical improvement, do it yourself. 

[Mango]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Lol. Are we experiencing roster stasis? Did I say Allen’s career is likely to mirror Mahomes? 

 

I expect Allen to improve with the addition of Diggs and a second year behind the same offensive line, similar as I expected improvement from his rookie to second when they overhauled a bad offensive roster. You want some arbitrary rate of statistical improvement, do it yourself. 

Quality additions to the conversation per usual...

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Mango

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Honest question. If Allen returned the entire offense from 2019 with zero changes or improvements, other than his own, what do you predict his 2020 stat line is? What metrics are improved and by how much? 
 

(note: none of this is to say he has not improved or will not improve)

 

‘Honest question’ lmao

 

Great contributions abound 

[njbuff]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

Honest question. If Allen returned the entire offense from 2019 with zero changes or improvements, other than his own, what do you predict his 2020 stat line is? What metrics are improved and by how much? 
 

(note: none of this is to say he has not improved or will not improve)

 

I am not a stats junkie or anything.

 

An improvement from Allen to me means a deep run in the playoffs.

 

Anything less is a step back, FOR ALL OF UF.

[YattaOkasan]

7 hours ago, GreggTX said:

Why  bother with all of this nonsense? His ball placement is highly inconsistent even on short throws and a large percentage of his deep balls miss by 10 ' or more. Trust your eyes. Want our receivers to drop fewer passes? Try putting the ball on target. No receiver has an easier time bringing in passes if the ball is poorly placed.

 

Josh Allen is an elite scrambler with great arm strength, but in the pocket, he plays like a backup. That said, he continues to improve. I'm hoping he can do what Tannehill did in Tennessee.  My greatest fear is that he will do just enough to stick around a while and hold this team back like Winston did in Tampa. We have a good coaching staff and I'd hate to lose them because they refuse to part ways with him if his upward trend doesn't take him very far. He's a good person, hard worker and good leader and I'm pulling for him. Keeping my fingers crossed. He has another weapon now, but needs a better OL and TE before he can hit his full potential.

Drops are by definition throws that should have been caught. None of the throws in the tweet were drops.
 

Does he need to get more consistent?  Yes. Does the supporting cast need to not let him down so much? Yes (drops and separation from WR also time and penalties from the OL). 

[StHustle]

On 4/11/2020 at 12:27 AM, JESSEFEFFER said:

I think I need to issue an APB for the point of my thread because everyone is missing it.  Almost half of the supposedly inaccurate throws in the video were errant due to something BESIDES HIS ACCURACY.  That's my point.  Agree or don't.

 

Or maybe we should put the one big point you are MISSING on a milk carton.

 

Josh finished as the least accurate QB both his years in the league. It sounds bad trying to make excuses for that. He needs to work improving that vs hoping for better luck.

[Mango]

12 minutes ago, StHustle said:

 

Or maybe we should put the one big point you are MISSING on a milk carton.

 

Josh finished as the least accurate QB both his years in the league. It sounds bad trying to make excuses for that. He needs to work improving that vs hoping for better luck.

 

also this...

 

[Bulldog]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

also this...

 

 

Those expecting Josh Allen to "develop" into a precision type quarterback (like a Drew Brees) are all likely in for a big disappointment. I am a big supporter of Josh - he's the most fun & exciting QB we have had in our backfield in many years - however, it is likely that he will always be what he is now - a QB that is capable of making huge plays, and able to make them with his legs as well as him arm, while sometimes making some head scratchers. This does not preclude Allen from leading us to a Super Bowl victory - not all Super Bowl winning QB's were cut from the Brees or Brady mold. Let's enjoy the great things Josh can do & stop wishing that he could turn into someone/something that he is not. While there are never any guarantees -- Here's hoping Josh makes another leap forward this year - as he did between year 1 & 2 of his career.

 

Secondly - that list of guys above -- with a "better" % than Josh Allen is indicative of how useless statistics can sometimes be - would anyone suggest that any of these guys are better QB's than Josh Allen or would anyone suggest that they would want one of them as the Bills QB instead Of Josh Allen because of those "better" %'s?   

 

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

also this...

 

College stats lmfao

[GunnerBill]

53 minutes ago, Bulldog said:

 

Those expecting Josh Allen to "develop" into a precision type quarterback (like a Drew Brees) are all likely in for a big disappointment. I am a big supporter of Josh - he's the most fun & exciting QB we have had in our backfield in many years - however, it is likely that he will always be what he is now - a QB that is capable of making huge plays, and able to make them with his legs as well as him arm, while sometimes making some head scratchers. This does not preclude Allen from leading us to a Super Bowl victory - not all Super Bowl winning QB's were cut from the Brees or Brady mold. Let's enjoy the great things Josh can do & stop wishing that he could turn into someone/something that he is not. While there are never any guarantees -- Here's hoping Josh makes another leap forward this year - as he did between year 1 & 2 of his career.

 

Secondly - that list of guys above -- with a "better" % than Josh Allen is indicative of how useless statistics can sometimes be - would anyone suggest that any of these guys are better QB's than Josh Allen or would anyone suggest that they would want one of them as the Bills QB instead Of Josh Allen because of those "better" %'s?   

 

 

Agree with this. I don't think Allen will ever be a precision passer. But then nor has Big Ben ever been. He is accurate enough and has won two Superbowls so you don't have to be Brady, Brees, Manning precise to be accurate enough. You can win a Superbowl without a precision passer. 

[FireChans]

14 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

No. You posited a hypothetical wherein Allen returns the 2019 offense in 2020 and wondered what his improvement might be. I responded with an actual example of the best young QB in the league, returning basically the same roster, whose stats did not improve...illustrating my original point that there’s no point in looking for some non-team dependent statistical benchmarks you can point to as a referendum on a QB’s trajectory.

^said point a lot

Uh, Mahomes and his #1 WR battled injuries all year. Unlike the year before when they were both healthy all year.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Uh, Mahomes and his #1 WR battled injuries all year. Unlike the year before when they were both healthy all year.

Good point.

[JESSEFEFFER]

3 hours ago, StHustle said:

 

Or maybe we should put the one big point you are MISSING on a milk carton.

 

Josh finished as the least accurate QB both his years in the league. It sounds bad trying to make excuses for that. He needs to work improving that vs hoping for better luck.

The point you are missing is that the person doing the "grading" and put the video together chose a sample of 15 or so errant throws and 6 to 10 of which had nothing to do with accuracy.  Therefore, I question the grader and creator of video who I've been informed is Cian Fahey. 

 

Throws that were disrupted by contact with his arm or leg or tipped by a DL are not evidence of poor accuracy.  It's evidence of a sloppy process or a biased agenda.  Put that on a milk carton.

 

As for the rest WE ALL KNOW he needs more development.  But,  if the video is tied to his grading system, I reject its product.  Some here seem to know his work quite well and think he clings to an anti Josh agenda. 

 

 

 

 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree with this. I don't think Allen will ever be a precision passer. But then nor has Big Ben ever been. He is accurate enough and has won two Superbowls so you don't have to be Brady, Brees, Manning precise to be accurate enough. You can win a Superbowl without a precision passer. 

And I never that Manning was incredibly accurate, especially in his later years.   What Manning was good at was always knowing or figuring out where the play was and then getting the ball there well, but not with the precision Brees has.   

 

I agree, too.  Allen will never be like Brees, and I think he can be better than Roethlisberger.   I really think it's just learning.   He seems to have all the on-field physical skills.  He has the arm, he has the moxie, he has the size.   He simply has it all.   More mobile than Brady or Manning, strongest arm of any of them, ability to move in the pocket and take contact.   Best ball carrier of all of them.   Physical skills isn't the problem.   The challenge for Allen is to master the game off the field and learn to process information on field accurately and quickly.   Ben and Peyton and Brady and Brees all have that.    Allen has shown over two years that he's learning it.  The question is will he continue to learn, year after year, like those guys did?   And if he doesn't, how much better is he going to get before he plateaus?

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

And I never that Manning was incredibly accurate, especially in his later years.   What Manning was good at was always knowing or figuring out where the play was and then getting the ball there well, but not with the precision Brees has.   

 

I agree, too.  Allen will never be like Brees, and I think he can be better than Roethlisberger.   I really think it's just learning.   He seems to have all the on-field physical skills.  He has the arm, he has the moxie, he has the size.   He simply has it all.   More mobile than Brady or Manning, strongest arm of any of them, ability to move in the pocket and take contact.   Best ball carrier of all of them.   Physical skills isn't the problem.   The challenge for Allen is to master the game off the field and learn to process information on field accurately and quickly.   Ben and Peyton and Brady and Brees all have that.    Allen has shown over two years that he's learning it.  The question is will he continue to learn, year after year, like those guys did?   And if he doesn't, how much better is he going to get before he plateaus?

 

Early Peyton Manning was devilishly accurate. It was what made him who he was because he never had the biggest arm. Eli had a better arm than Peyton. His last couple of years he was throwing some ducks but his body was failing him by then. 

 

To say he can be better than Big Ben is a big call. I am not willing to go that far. 

[C.Biscuit97]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree with this. I don't think Allen will ever be a precision passer. But then nor has Big Ben ever been. He is accurate enough and has won two Superbowls so you don't have to be Brady, Brees, Manning precise to be accurate enough. You can win a Superbowl without a precision passer. 

Big Ben is a 64.3% career passer and has had seasons of 68 and 67.  He doesn’t seem like the Brady or Brees type but he’s surprisingly accurate. 

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

And I never that Manning was incredibly accurate, especially in his later years.   What Manning was good at was always knowing or figuring out where the play was and then getting the ball there well, but not with the precision Brees has.   

 

I agree, too.  Allen will never be like Brees, and I think he can be better than Roethlisberger.   I really think it's just learning.   He seems to have all the on-field physical skills.  He has the arm, he has the moxie, he has the size.   He simply has it all.   More mobile than Brady or Manning, strongest arm of any of them, ability to move in the pocket and take contact.   Best ball carrier of all of them.   Physical skills isn't the problem.   The challenge for Allen is to master the game off the field and learn to process information on field accurately and quickly.   Ben and Peyton and Brady and Brees all have that.    Allen has shown over two years that he's learning it.  The question is will he continue to learn, year after year, like those guys did?   And if he doesn't, how much better is he going to get before he plateaus?

Better than Big Ben??? Glad to see people are still having lots drinks this Easter!!!

 

is there one sort of evidence that Allen can be better than Big Ben other than blind homerism?  I actually love that you brought up Big Ben.  He did what I wanted Allen to do in college - dominate.  https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/ben-roethlisberger-1.html  And most people will tell you the Mac is a better conference than the MWC.

 

this has always been my problem with Allen and all the excuse makers.  He has never been a dominant player on any level.  He will make spectacular plays, for quarters and occasionally halves.  But now we are expecting him to be a consistently great player in the nfl.  It’s a huge risk imo.  Luckily, the defense is so good that a good game manager can win us a lot of games. 

[C.Biscuit97]

6 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

College stats lmfao

This country has become so cult like lately.  There are so many idiots in power and no matter how much evidence is presented that they are idiots, their cult continues to make excuses.  I love the Bills more than I rationally should.  However, I’m not going to be in a cult for Allen.  
 

dude has shown he is a nfl qb.  But there is plenty of solid evidence that points to real questions if he Can be a true franchise guy.  But to the cult members who dismiss any shred of non Josh Allen is the best evidence is kinda wild.  But happy Easter!

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

This country has become so cult like lately.  There are so many idiots in power and no matter how much evidence is presented that they are idiots, their cult continues to make excuses.  I love the Bills more than I rationally should.  However, I’m not going to be in a cult for Allen.  
 

dude has shown he is a nfl qb.  But there is plenty of solid evidence that points to real questions if he Can be a true franchise guy.  But to the cult members who dismiss any shred of non Josh Allen is the best evidence is kinda wild.  But happy Easter!

You think college off target throw percentage is ‘solid evidence’

[CapeBreton]

delete

 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by CapeBreton

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You think college off target throw percentage is ‘solid evidence’

I think it’s more evidence of his not being the most accurate passer.  And it was in the MWC not the SEC.  I just don’t why some of you are so quick to dismiss all the statistics that show he isn’t the most accurate passer.  
 

I would love to see this board would judge him and Darnold if they switched teams.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think it’s more evidence of his not being the most accurate passer.  And it was in the MWC not the SEC.  I just don’t why some of you are so quick to dismiss all the statistics that show he isn’t the most accurate passer.  
 

I would love to see this board would judge him and Darnold if they switched teams.

Just so I have this right: you want to use Allen’s college off target throw percentage as ‘solid evidence’...and I’m the one with the cult mentality. 
 

Are you being serious?

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think it’s more evidence of his not being the most accurate passer.  And it was in the MWC not the SEC.  I just don’t why some of you are so quick to dismiss all the statistics that show he isn’t the most accurate passer.  
 

I would love to see this board would judge him and Darnold if they switched teams.

If Allen was a Jet and pulled that lateral BS in a playoff game, it’d be right up there with the Butt Fumble and Geno’s behind the back play in Bills land.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I think it’s more evidence of his not being the most accurate passer.  And it was in the MWC not the SEC.  I just don’t why some of you are so quick to dismiss all the statistics that show he isn’t the most accurate passer.  
 

I would love to see this board would judge him and Darnold if they switched teams.

 

If I were a Jets fan I'd say the Bills have the better QB because despite Allen being a "project," he had a far better TD:INT ratio, is a dual threat QB, and led his team to the playoffs with several 4th quarter comebacks.  About all I could point to with Darnold is that his completion percentage is higher (but still under 60% for his career).

 

18 minutes ago, FireChans said:

If Allen was a Jet and pulled that lateral BS in a playoff game, it’d be right up there with the Butt Fumble and Geno’s behind the back play in Bills land.

 

Nothing will be up there with the Butt Fumble.  That one is in a league all its own.

[ganesh]

On 4/11/2020 at 8:54 PM, JaCrispy said:

Mostly inaccurate throws, but I noticed that he wasn’t stepping into those throws- and was short arming most of them...when he side arms the throws you notice they tend to sail high...

 

Clean up the mechanics and more consistency will follow imo...

+1

[Billl]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

You think college off target throw percentage is ‘solid evidence’

Very