Josh Allen "Prove it" Season In Year 3

[34-78-83]

2019 Stats say that Lamar Jackson is a great passer. He just isn't. It's pretty clear. However as a complete threat he has to be taken very seriously by every team he goes up against.

 

An eye that has knowledge of or experience with the game of football can see performance better and more consistently predict success.

 

Josh was an unpolished piece of clay with many rare tools and a great work ethic and no experience against major top competition when we picked him.If his impovement level from year 1 to year 2 is mirrored from year 2 to 3, there won't really be much left to question, regardless of any statistical measure you try to argue against him with. He's already easily in the top 20 starting QB's if you look at the whole picture and what matters in the league in this era of QB.  

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Allen comes from a small town golly gee upbringing. The rest of those guys (except maybe Mayfield) have always had the spotlight and fanfare. 

 

Yea. That doesn't matter. Not a jot. 

4 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

2019 Stats say that Lamar Jackson is a great passer. He just isn't. It's pretty clear. However as a complete threat he has to be taken very seriously by every team he goes up against.

 

An eye that has knowledge of or experience with the game of football can see performance better and more consistently predict success.

 

Josh was an unpolished piece of clay with many rare tools and a great work ethic and no experience against major top competition when we picked him.If his impovement level from year 1 to year 2 is mirrored from year 2 to 3, there won't really be much left to question, regardless of any statistical measure you try to argue against him with. He's already easily in the top 20 starting QB's if you look at the whole picture and what matters in the league in this era of QB.  

 

The bolded above is exactly the key point. If Josh has "topped out" we will be having brutal debates a year from now. But if he takes another stride like he did this year? We are talking about a top 10 QB. 

5 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I don't think that its "don't care: so much as they don't know what to do when things don't go their way.

 

I think at 1-7 things were not going Darnold's way. At 2-6 they were not going Baker's way. I think it is a far accusation on Rosen. He hates losing but doesn't know how to respond to it. But the other two have already proven in short NFL careers that they can face adversity and fight.

Edited March 23, 2020 by GunnerBill

[John from Riverside]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea. That doesn't matter. Not a jot. 

 

The bolded above is exactly the key point. If Josh has "topped out" we will be having brutal debates a year from now. But if he takes another stride like he did this year? We are talking about a top 10 QB. 

That really is the whole point  tough......you expect a high ceiling QB to get better every year as you add pieces around him......

 

If players would just stop dropping the ball...…..

[GG]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The bolded above is exactly the key point. If Josh has "topped out" we will be having brutal debates a year from now. But if he takes another stride like he did this year? We are talking about a top 10 QB. 

 

 

This multi-page thread could have been summarized in this one post.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

That really is the whole point  tough......you expect a high ceiling QB to get better every year as you add pieces around him......

 

If players would just stop dropping the ball...…..

 

I think Josh is still improving. That is the point. I don't think we will be having brutal conversations next offseason..

[John from Riverside]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea. That doesn't matter. Not a jot. 

 

The bolded above is exactly the key point. If Josh has "topped out" we will be having brutal debates a year from now. But if he takes another stride like he did this year? We are talking about a top 10 QB. 

 

I think at 1-7 things were not going Darnold's way. At 2-6 they were not going Baker's way. I think it is a far accusation on Rosen. He hates losing but doesn't know how to respond to it. But the other two have already proven in short NFL careers that they can face adversity and fight.

I think Mayfield has been given a bunch of tools......and he has character issues which I actually think is a bad QB thing

 

I think Darnold is better then given credit.….but the jets are just a ***** show of a organization

 

Rosen.....I just think he isn't gonna have a long NFL career

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

 

The bolded above is exactly the key point. If Josh has "topped out" we will be having brutal debates a year from now. But if he takes another stride like he did this year? We are talking about a top 10 QB. 

 

 

Yes, and even THIS year we are talking about him much differently without a statistically relevant number of dropped passes. 

 

His trajectory is firmly up. There's little reason to think he won't improve.

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I think Mayfield has been given a bunch of tools......and he has character issues which I actually think is a bad QB thing

 

I think Darnold is better then given credit.….but the jets are just a ***** show of a organization

 

Rosen.....I just think he isn't gonna have a long NFL career

 

Mayfield is gonna be good this year. I am pretty certain of it. I am predicting a major bounce back. The biggest problem with the Browns last year was hiring an out of his depth running backs coach as a Head man. Darnold I feel for. The Jets remain a talented roster in some places but a shitshow off the field. 

[snamsnoops]

4 hours ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Do you think that some of the drops are due to the velocity of his passes? Maybe he needs to develop a softer touch on short to medium route in certain situations.

It's the NFL, really?

[papazoid]

all he has to do is improve...which i expect he will

 

 

[Hebert19]

2 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

If Josh remains in the bottom 5 of numerous statistical categories, chances are we won't get much further than simply making the playoffs. 

 

The goal is a Super Bowl victory.  So while your original take is a sane one, I couldn't care less about "12 wins".  He needs to be able to play well enough to win a Super Bowl.

I have confidence in the guy to find a way to win even if he throws for 100 yards.  That's the key with him over others. 

[Dr. Who]

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Where I’m at with Allen.  He has the luxury of playing with a very good defense that makes his margin of error much higher than most qbs.  I think a lot of qbs, say Andy Dalton, could have “lead” us to the playoffs last year.  It was a really good situations. 
 

that said, the dude is super talent and very exciting. Most of the time, the moment doesn’t look to big for him.  But he is very inconsistent and that really needs to improve this year.  Too many highs and lows.  Watch Brady highlights.  They are rarely super exciting but he is just maddeningly consistent.  That’s what we need Allen to be.  

Allen is never going to be Brady. I think he can be Favre or Elway. And frankly, I like the wow plays. So, more consistent, yes; Brady consistent is asking him to be a totally different kind of qb and even then, Brady is arguably the GOAT. Allen needs to learn to read the field better, but I surmise he has the intelligence and desire to put in the work necessary to get there. It's not really unusual for a young qb to take time on that skill. He now has the playmakers and overall offensive talent that he should start to trust the folks around him. He's been trying to carry the team when he sensed things going South (like the Houston game.)

[Chicken Boo]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Bottom 5 of which 'numerous' statistical categories?

 

I was going off of the the original comment you were responding to. 

 

Let's not act like Josh isn't in the lower tier of starting QBs.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Chicken Boo said:

 

I was going off of the the original comment you were responding to. 

 

Let's not act like Josh isn't in the lower tier of starting QBs.

So you got nothing except fake stats that you repeated w/out verifying for yourself

 

got it

[Chicken Boo]

3 hours ago, whorlnut said:

#crickets

 

Crickets huh?

 

Qb rating - 27th

QBR - 25th

Completion % - 32nd

 

I'm too lazy to look where he ranks for holding onto the ball or deep ball accuracy, but you get the point.

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

So you got nothing except fake stats that you repeated w/out verifying for yourself

 

got it

 

You're probably one of those guys who ranks Josh above Lamar Jackson.

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Crickets huh?

 

Qb rating - 27th

QBR - 25th

Completion % - 32nd

 

I'm too lazy to look where he ranks for holding onto the ball or deep ball accuracy, but you get the point.

 

You're probably one of those guys who ranks Josh above Lamar Jackson.

And you're the guy who thinks 25th our of 32 equals bottom 5

 

Congrats

[Chicken Boo]

32 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

And you're the guy who thinks 25th our of 32 equals bottom 5

 

Congrats

 

Like 25th out of 32 is something to be proud of?

 

You got me!

Edited March 24, 2020 by Chicken Boo

[John from Riverside]

24 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Crickets huh?

 

Qb rating - 27th

QBR - 25th

Completion % - 32nd

 

I'm too lazy to look where he ranks for holding onto the ball or deep ball accuracy, but you get the point.

 

You're probably one of those guys who ranks Josh above Lamar Jackson.

What would make you assume that?

 

[whorlnut]

28 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Crickets huh?

 

Qb rating - 27th

QBR - 25th

Completion % - 32nd

 

I'm too lazy to look where he ranks for holding onto the ball or deep ball accuracy, but you get the point.

 

You're probably one of those guys who ranks Josh above Lamar Jackson.

I’m glad you’re happy that you made some kind of “point”. It’s pretty sad that you get some kind of thrill off of bashing your team’s QB. Good for you...

7 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Like 25th out of 32 is something to be proud of?

 

You got me!

You know what he ranks at the top in?  Game winning drives. That’s what matters more than your dumb stats. 

[Chicken Boo]

26 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

I’m glad you’re happy that you made some kind of “point”. It’s pretty sad that you get some kind of thrill off of bashing your team’s QB. Good for you...

You know what he ranks at the top in?  Game winning drives. That’s what matters more than your dumb stats. 

 

I never understand why fans get upset when facts are pointed out about Josh Allen?  He needs to get better.  Pretty obvious.

 

I don't dislike Josh.  My problem is with blind loyalists who don't demand more of our starting QB. 

 

I've been banging the drum to get him more weapons on offense for 2 seasons now.  I desperately wanted this team to draft Mercalf last year to pair with Josh.  I was all aboard "trading for Julio or Diggs" before they ever became realistic options.

 

I'm one of the very few on this board that wants Beane to sign a seasoned veteran RB, primarily for pass protection, to buy Josh more time in the pocket.

 

I'm rooting for the kid, but I also understand that he needs to improve.  I'm far from satisfied with his play.  He's on the right track but my standards are high.  Everyone's should be.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Chicken Boo

[John from Riverside]

Singletary when one of the best pass protections ratings of all NFL RBs last year...….

[BigBillsFan]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

He changed it to 'per game TDs thrown' immediately

 

 

 

Never changed it genius read above.

 

Trying too hard hahahaha

[downunderbill]

A few playoff wins, not overly concerned about the stats. He's electric enough and a gamer but in the end it's still a team sport and if they gets further than a team with a QB that has better stats, does it really matter? 

 

[BigBillsFan]

16 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I never understand why fans get upset when facts are pointed out about Josh Allen?  He needs to get better.  Pretty obvious.

 

I don't dislike Josh.  My problem is with blind loyalists who don't demand more of our starting QB. 

 

I've been banging the drum to get him more weapons on offense for 2 seasons now.  I desperately wanted this team to draft Mercalf last year to pair with Josh.  I was all aboard "trading for Julio or Diggs" before they ever became realistic options.

 

I'm one of the very few on this board that wants Beane to sign a seasoned veteran RB, primarily for pass protection, to buy Josh more time in the pocket.

 

I'm rooting for the kid, but I also understand that he needs to improve.  I'm far from satisfied with his play.  He's on the right track but my standards are high.  Everyone's should be.

 

But see we think the same and mere pointing out flaws makes people go crazy. They want to use stats only found in Nerdom that might vindicate them because the real stats that count don't just yet.

 

I want Josh to succeed, I wanted Hooper to bail him out of plays that's how much I want Josh to succeed.

 

Now we're counting the incredible comebacks against the Jets, Bengals and Giants and yet only scoring 17 points. Sorry what's astounding is we needed 17 points in the last minutes to win.

 

Realism scares people, makes them go crazy. I've watched it for EJ, Losman, and any other 1st rounder. Fans are far more objective if the player isn't in the 1st.

 

I hope he succeeds but right now he's a major work in progress and if he does he has a ton of talent and we'll all be happy. No one is drinking Haterade, we can point out he isn't that great of a QB just yet, and a QBs biggest traits for long-term success is decision making and accuracy.

 

He's obviously improving and I know with Diggs he'll do better.

[John from Riverside]

4 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

But see we think the same and mere pointing out flaws makes people go crazy. They want to use stats only found in Nerdom that might vindicate them because the real stats that count don't just yet.

 

I want Josh to succeed, I wanted Hooper to bail him out of plays that's how much I want Josh to succeed.

 

Now we're counting the incredible comebacks against the Jets, Bengals and Giants and yet only scoring 17 points. Sorry what's astounding is we needed 17 points in the last minutes to win.

 

Realism scares people, makes them go crazy. I've watched it for EJ, Losman, and any other 1st rounder. Fans are far more objective if the player isn't in the 1st.

 

I hope he succeeds but right now he's a major work in progress and if he does he has a ton of talent and we'll all be happy. No one is drinking Haterade, we can point out he isn't that great of a QB just yet, and a QBs biggest traits for long-term success is decision making and accuracy.

 

He's obviously improving and I know with Diggs he'll do better.

I think being critical is fine as long as we also vet that with why things might be happening....and of course we always knew Josh was raw coming in

[thebandit27]

12 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

But see we think the same and mere pointing out flaws makes people go crazy. They want to use stats only found in Nerdom that might vindicate them because the real stats that count don't just yet.

 

I want Josh to succeed, I wanted Hooper to bail him out of plays that's how much I want Josh to succeed.

 

Now we're counting the incredible comebacks against the Jets, Bengals and Giants and yet only scoring 17 points. Sorry what's astounding is we needed 17 points in the last minutes to win.

 

Realism scares people, makes them go crazy. I've watched it for EJ, Losman, and any other 1st rounder. Fans are far more objective if the player isn't in the 1st.

 

I hope he succeeds but right now he's a major work in progress and if he does he has a ton of talent and we'll all be happy. No one is drinking Haterade, we can point out he isn't that great of a QB just yet, and a QBs biggest traits for long-term success is decision making and accuracy.

 

He's obviously improving and I know with Diggs he'll do better.

You are entitled to your own opinion; you are not entitled to your own facts.

 

So when someone makes a totally indefensible claim like “bottom 5 in most passing categories”, that person (and anyone that agrees with them) should fully expect to be called out.

 

You should also expect to be called out when you say “bottom 5 in passing TDs” when it’s false. And then if you feel the need to back your way into a defensible position by switching the argument to TD passes per game (instead of, say, TD% which is pretty commonly used), you may find it difficult to get people to believe that you’re making a purely a fact-based argument.

Edited March 24, 2020 by thebandit27

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

The passion of the anti-Joshers is strong tonight!  

[Motor26]

Sure his numbers weren’t all that great. But he makes plays a lot of other QBs can’t. Also a lot of plays that drive you insane. That being said, he still made a nice jump from rookie year to year 2. Hoping for more progress in year 3.

[Buffalo Boy]

8 minutes ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

The passion of the anti-Joshers is strong tonight!  

I harken back to the EJ vs TT days☺️

[Cripple Creek]

4 hours ago, whorlnut said:

I think you really underestimate how much Beane and McD think of Allen. This is not a make or break year for him IMO. If guys like Tannehill, Winston, and Mariota get their full rookie deals, then Allen will too. 
 

I truly believe Beane and McD are fully committed to him. They truly believe that he can be developed and already possesses traits that can’t be taught. I think those traits are what drew them to him in the first place. It just so happens that he has a winning record in two seasons working with an incomplete offense. Let’s see what he does with good, seasoned players. 

Beane and McDermott are committed to winning football games and furthering their careers.  As long as the feel Allen gives them the best chance at that then he's fine.  Mariota was replaced by Tannehill for a reason.  He was brought in to compete.  Tannehill was replaced in Miami for a reason. TB's folly was not doing something earlier to get competition for Winston.

 

Beane has constructed an offense (from a talent perspective) that leaves no excuses.  It's up to the coaches to put the players in the best possible position.  It's up to the players, led by Allen to make plays.  He's a great kid and I want nothing but huge success for him and the Bills.  

 

Waiting one extra year only does one thing though.  It puts you one year behind in finding your future. (JMO)

 

 

[Logic]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Singletary when one of the best pass protections ratings of all NFL RBs last year...….

 

Can you provide a link for this information. I do not believe that it’s correct.

[longtimebillsfan]

1 hour ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I never understand why fans get upset when facts are pointed out about Josh Allen?  He needs to get better.  Pretty obvious.

 

I don't dislike Josh.  My problem is with blind loyalists who don't demand more of our starting QB. 

 

I've been banging the drum to get him more weapons on offense for 2 seasons now.  I desperately wanted this team to draft Mercalf last year to pair with Josh.  I was all aboard "trading for Julio or Diggs" before they ever became realistic options.

 

I'm one of the very few on this board that wants Beane to sign a seasoned veteran RB, primarily for pass protection, to buy Josh more time in the pocket.

 

I'm rooting for the kid, but I also understand that he needs to improve.  I'm far from satisfied with his play.  He's on the right track but my standards are high.  Everyone's should be.

I'm not sure it's  kind loyalty.  Allen is s goid kid and is easy to root for.  Most of us understood that he was a project that takes patience and time.

[John from Riverside]

46 minutes ago, Logic said:

 

Can you provide a link for this information. I do not believe that it’s correct.

I saw it in the Carlos Hyde thread

[Mango]

6 hours ago, White Linen said:

 

That's not what was said.  He said if we get to x point offensively it'll firmly put us in the conversation as a top 10 team.  

 

We already are. 

That was my post. 
 

There are 10 teams drafting after us. So we are not top 10. We averaged 19 points a game last year. We are top 5 on the defensive side of the ball. The only thing keeping us out of being in the upper echelon conversation is offensive efficiency, consistency, and scoring. If we don’t do that, we will continue to be on the outside of that conversation. 

[Punching Bag]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Some people think cucumbers taste better pickled

 

That is silly. They taste best fried.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Chicken Boo said:

I'm rooting for the kid, but I also understand that he needs to improve.  I'm far from satisfied with his play.  He's on the right track but my standards are high.  Everyone's should be.

I think it depends on what you mean by satisfied. I'm satisfied with his progress so far and I believe he is likely to end up a very fine franchise qb. If he doesn't progress from where he is now, that is not good enough. I don't see any plausible reason to expect him to plateau (though, of course, he may) and I can find a number of reasons to be optimistic. Don't really think most folks who are "Josh supporters" differ on this. This does not equate to blind loyalty. What irritates is not a petty aversion to "facts" but the sense that a number of folks follow a consistent agenda to use stats to suggest a narrative that ignores the positives. A lot of these same fellas have clearly already decided Josh is not a good qb and that seems presumptuous, not realism given the qualitative fact that one is dealing with a young, developing qb and not a veteran who has clearly hit the limits of his potential.

[Mango]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Passing TDs are up.....he is a multi thread so you have to count Running TDs   does that go into your bull#### math?

A QB’s first job is to pass the ball. Running is an additional value but absolutely not a replacement value. I love Josh running, but bringing up running doesn’t really take away from his need to improve as a passer first and foremost.

 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

A QB’s first job is to pass the ball. Running is an additional value but absolutely not a replacement value. I love Josh running, but bringing up running doesn’t really take away from his need to improve as a passer first and foremost.

 

Mango

 

not a finished product but duel threat is duel threat and those tds absolutely need to be factored into production

 

if he throws for 2 and runs for 1 it still counts

[Dr. Who]

6 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Mango

 

not a finished product but duel threat is duel threat and those tds absolutely need to be factored into production

 

if he throws for 2 and runs for 1 it still counts

Does anyone who evaluates Lamar Jackson as a qb throw out the running stats?

[Mango]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 He was tied for 21st w/Murray and Fitz for TD passes.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing.htm

 

 

 

 

Not a single QB below Allen on that list started 16 games. Brisset and Trubisky got close with 15. Mind you Brisset was their back up until right before the season started and was just replaced in Indy with Rivers. Chicago just traded for Foles for competition. Those are literally the best guys he was ahead of who had lots of playing time. You could throw in Darnold and Stafford but they only played 13 and 8 games respectively.