Reasons I think Josh is more viable long term than Jackson

[billsfan89]

Year three is make or break for Josh in my opinion (and a rather obvious statement) I feel that they will add a high degree of talent at the pass catching position and retain a strong O-line and ground game. Josh will have 2 years under his belt over 20 starts and a good amount of talent across the board. Josh has to ascend to being a top 10 QB or close to it in order for this team to be a serious contender and for Josh to show his viability long term. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

5 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

how did ‘because you’re a Bills fan’ not make this list? 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

Weird!  That's his agent's name, too!

 

???? Josh Allen's mom is Lavonne Allen

Josh Allen's agent is listed as Tom Condon of CAA Sports

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

???? Josh Allen's mom is Lavonne Allen

Josh Allen's agent is listed as Tom Condon of CAA Sports

 

No, no, no … you are all confused.  Lamont Allen is Lavar Jackson's agent.  Josh Allen's agent is Scott Boras and Tom Condon used to be married to Roseanne Barr.

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, Mickey said:

 

Whose scale? The stat obsessed, rotisserie baseball fanatics that think DVOARTxY(Yac)/V2-{x/z) percentage is more important than, you know, winning games? 

A raw, small town college QB in just his second year secures a playoff spot with two weeks to spare and has his team within a few plays of winning the division and securing a bye has proved that he is in fact the one. 

 

In the next two years if all Josh manages to do is, with the same stats, get us in to the playoffs two more times so that he has done it in three consecutive seasons, what then? Since that seems not to be good enough to prove that "he is in fact the one", will people be calling for the team to cut a QB who gets his team into the playoffs three years in a row? 

 

The argument is over, all those who still can't get over the fact that we didn't draft Rosen or Rudolph or whatever just have to accept reality: Josh is our franchise QB. 

 Franchise QB? Very well could be, but he is a franchise QB in training at this point. Like it or not he is not consistent enough, and fumbles way to much.

 

  The NFLs scale, as seen by our coaches & GM, that’s obvious enough.

 

     Raw, very true, two years of real coaching so far, and he is showing real progress, and that is good,  but by the end of two more years he absolutely needs to show he is there, or awfully damn close, according to SMs & BBs agenda, not yours or mine.

 

   I’m a big fan of Josh Allen and want nothing less than to see him be “The Man” , but in all reality he has to repeat what he has achieved and more over the next two years to be considered the one going forward.  

 

After four years of top level coaching he has to show more consistent play and far fewer fumbles every game, and be putting up twenty one Points per game average, all season long, we all know this offense as it currently sits is not scoring enough points.  

 

We as fans, absolutely want Josh to kick asz, that Is a given. It is what we all hope happens. I was on the wagon the moment the pick was announced, and have seen the shine in his play from the get go. But he does need to improve noticeably, and I think he can, as it appears you think that too. 

 

Go Bills!!!

[ngbills]

Rumor is the Bills are going with only 3 OL next year to help Allen take another step handling passing vs a rush. 

[Chicken Boo]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Yeah but the front office must do their job. I think they will. The Bills should be a deeper and more talented football team next year.

 

They better!  Give Allen all the talent he needs.  

[Mr. WEO]

5 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

The Bills have a tough schedule this year.  They're going up against some of the NFL's best.  We're going to see what Josh is McD/Daboll are made of.  It's year 3.

 

Fixed

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

6 hours ago, ALLEN1QB said:

We have not even scratched the surface of Allen's talent. This guy is going to be something special. Buffalo will have a championship in the next 5 years.

Ok mrs. Allen 

[Meatloaf63]

7 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

You could say the same about Allen. He is a very good athlete but he still needs to become a better QB. Playing the pocket, going thru his reads and making good decisions in where to go with the ball. He needs to protect the ball better (INT's and fumbles). He was a big reason why the Bills didn't get a chance to play at KC in the divisional round. Hoping he can take the next step next season in becoming a very good/great QB.

He was pretty much the only reason we were in the game, he had an incredibly low interception % after the first pats game, not sure what you have been watching. Fix the online, get him some quality receivers and he will be fine. 

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fair points.  My counter would be

 

1 - Jackson had a better passing season as a 2nd year guy than any of those players

 

2 - he was an amazing college player. Again, maybe he is just good.

 

2 - there are factors why some of those guys flamed out. RG3 got hurt.  We know the Kaepernick story.  Dog killer Vick actually became a better passer under Reid late in his career.  Cunningham played with crappy skill players (look at those Eagles rosters) and then led one of the greatest teams to never win a SB late in his career.

 

i guess the other counter is where is the track record of a prospect like Allen succeeding?  A good but not great player in smaller conference who never hit 60% passing?  I think Allen has a great work ethic and is a good leader.  But that’s what scares me most.

 

side note, his mom’s name is Lavonne Allen. 

I’m not trying to sell Lamar short, I’m just saying I remain skeptical until he can prove he can sustain it.  I’ve just seen this too much to confidently say he is going to sustain this long term.

 

I still don’t think he’s that great of a QB in terms of pocket passer.  His unique offense created a lot of easier opportunities in the passing game due to the run aspect.  Once it’s figured out, which I believe we helped build that blue print already, he is going to need to be a good passer to counter.  
 

I need to see it before I have confidence in it is all I am saying.  I’m not rooting against him (unless playing the Bills of course), just don’t know if he’s going to be able to have this kind of success long term without growing into a better passer.  Right now, I think the newness of the unique system benefited him greatly, and now that there is tape on how to slow him down, I question how he will fare moving forward.  

[Chicken Boo]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Fixed

 

 

I fail to see how Josh wouldn't be included, but you're not far off.  McDermott, Beane and Dabs would be just as culpable if there is regression.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Gugny said:

No, no, no … you are all confused.  Lamont Allen is Lavar Jackson's agent.  Josh Allen's agent is Scott Boras and Tom Condon used to be married to Roseanne Barr.

 

Girl, don't go away mad...
Girl, just go away

[Mr. WEO]

11 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I fail to see how Josh wouldn't be included, but you're not far off.  McDermott, Beane and Dabs would be just as culpable if there is regression.

 

 

Daboll will stunt JA's growth and McD won't figure that out.

[Gugny]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Girl, don't go away mad...
Girl, just go away

 

Wrong thread!!!

[John from Riverside]

I just think that Allen's upside is going to be more then Jackson's upside.

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

This is just a blatantly racist original post. If anything you should have the exact opposite take. Jackson has been a better passer by far and Allen has relied on his athleticism not his passing to win many games. 

The take should be that even if Jackson loses some athletic ability he can still be a great QB with a 6:1 TD:INT ratio and QB rating over 110. Followed by Allen improved from year 1 to year 2 and if he does the Bill's will be fine at QB. But he has a long way to go as we all saw in the Houston game. 

[Chicken Boo]

21 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Daboll will stunt JA's growth and McD won't figure that out.

 

So you're of the thought that we don't have the right staff in place for Allen's development?

[Ethan in Cleveland]

7 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I just think that Allen's upside is going to be more then Jackson's upside.

 

 

Why? Based on what? Arm strength alone is not going to cut it. I believe in Allen and like the trajectory he is on but it will be very hard for Allen to ever achieve 36 TD and 6 INT so one could argue Allen has a long way to go just to get yo where Jackson is now.

How much of that is scheme, coaching, and other skill players is hard to know. Give Allen the TEs that Jackson has and he assuredly puts up better numbers.

[njbuff]

9 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

The Bills have a tough schedule this year.  They're going up against some of the NFL's best.  We're going to see what Josh is made of.  It's year 3.

 

We have NO IDEA what these teams are going to look like in 2020.

 

Way too early to come to the conclusion that the Bills have a tough schedule.

 

The AFC North and NFC East were supposed to be good last year. How did that work out?

[Chicken Boo]

28 minutes ago, njbuff said:

 

We have NO IDEA what these teams are going to look like in 2020.

 

Way too early to come to the conclusion that the Bills have a tough schedule.

 

Records aside, barring injuries, the Rams, 49ers, Seahawks, Steelers, x2 Patriots & Chiefs will be tough outings.  No two ways about it.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Chicken Boo

[njbuff]

Just now, Chicken Boo said:

 

Records aside, the Rams, 49ers, Seahawks, Steelers, x2 Patriots & Chiefs will be tough outings.  No two ways about it.

 

This team should be well prepared for whatever comes their way in 2020.

 

If they fail, it will be a MAJOR disappointment.

[John from Riverside]

31 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Why? Based on what? Arm strength alone is not going to cut it. I believe in Allen and like the trajectory he is on but it will be very hard for Allen to ever achieve 36 TD and 6 INT so one could argue Allen has a long way to go just to get yo where Jackson is now.

How much of that is scheme, coaching, and other skill players is hard to know. Give Allen the TEs that Jackson has and he assuredly puts up better numbers.

I base it on skill set

 

Jackson's game is just different...he is as good as he is ever going to be as a runner and is not that great of a passer

 

Josh Allen's game is evolving as a passer

[Hapless Bills Fan]

58 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

This is just a blatantly racist original post. If anything you should have the exact opposite take. Jackson has been a better passer by far and Allen has relied on his athleticism not his passing to win many games. 

The take should be that even if Jackson loses some athletic ability he can still be a great QB with a 6:1 TD:INT ratio and QB rating over 110. Followed by Allen improved from year 1 to year 2 and if he does the Bill's will be fine at QB. But he has a long way to go as we all saw in the Houston game. 

 

We do, from time to time, have some blatantly racist stuff on here, mods best efforts not withstanding.  But I fail to see how this op is one of them.  Something can be a mistaken or bad take (which is what I think of the OP) without being racist at all.  Moreover, if there is racism involved in this take, it's not blatant, but implicit.

 

The OP:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

[C.Biscuit97]

28 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I base it on skill set

 

Jackson's game is just different...he is as good as he is ever going to be as a runner and is not that great of a passer

 

Josh Allen's game is evolving as a passer

John, this is just the optimist Bills fan in you.  So Jackson, who has been a better passer in a much tougher college than Allen and a better passer in the nfl, can’t improve but Allen will?  
 

this is always my problem with the all the physical tools, high upside guys who never really had elite production.  People just keep thinking they will automatically take the next step and ignore some real issues.  Some fans try to dismiss the 60% thing thinking it’s just a couple of throws here or there.  Jackson doesn’t have the arm of Allen but he has been better in college and better in the pros.  There’s just a chance he might just be a better player.  And as much as some posters try to dismiss his accomplishments, saying our guy isn’t as good as the league MVP isn’t a bad thing.

 

but let’s load up on offense and see what Allen has.  I 100% believe in Allen’s character and work ethic.  But it’s time to stop making excuses for the highest drafted qb in franchise history while knocking a league MVP.  It’s kinda silly. 

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We do, from time to time, have some blatantly racist stuff on here, mods best efforts not withstanding.  But I fail to see how this op is one of them.  Something can be a mistaken or bad take (which is what I think of the OP) without being racist at all.  Moreover, if there is racism involved in this take, it's not blatant, but implicit.

 

The OP:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

Yeah, I don’t think it is racist at all but I do wonder if a 23 year old white qb who won a MVP and Heisman would face the criticism that Jackson has faced.  I honestly don’t remember a MVP, especially one This young, taking as much criticism as Jackson has. 

[CommonCents]

31 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

John, this is just the optimist Bills fan in you.  So Jackson, who has been a better passer in a much tougher college than Allen and a better passer in the nfl, can’t improve but Allen will?  
 

this is always my problem with the all the physical tools, high upside guys who never really had elite production.  People just keep thinking they will automatically take the next step and ignore some real issues.  Some fans try to dismiss the 60% thing thinking it’s just a couple of throws here or there.  Jackson doesn’t have the arm of Allen but he has been better in college and better in the pros.  There’s just a chance he might just be a better player.  And as much as some posters try to dismiss his accomplishments, saying our guy isn’t as good as the league MVP isn’t a bad thing.

 

but let’s load up on offense and see what Allen has.  I 100% believe in Allen’s character and work ethic.  But it’s time to stop making excuses for the highest drafted qb in franchise history while knocking a league MVP.  It’s kinda silly. 

Yeah, I don’t think it is racist at all but I do wonder if a 23 year old white qb who won a MVP and Heisman would face the criticism that Jackson has faced.  I honestly don’t remember a MVP, especially one This young, taking as much criticism as Jackson has. 

It’s the play style not the skin color, some people will never like the dancing around. Imagine, Money Manziel wins the MVP, just as many people would be trashing on him. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

37 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Yeah, I don’t think it is racist at all but I do wonder if a 23 year old white qb who won a MVP and Heisman would face the criticism that Jackson has faced.  I honestly don’t remember a MVP, especially one this young, taking as much criticism as Jackson has. 

 

I think there are possibly components of what's known as "implicit bias", where people channel their subconscious or unacknowledged prejudices into socially acceptable expressions.    I'm trying to think if there has actually been a young white QB who won both NFL MVP early in his career and a Heisman and I can't think of one.  You?   So we can speculate, but we can't really "do the experiment"  I do think there was implicit bias at work when some pundits suggested Jackson should convert to WR or RB, despite the fact that Jackson actually threw a similar number of passes for similar yardage as Josh Rosen Jr year.

Certainly young white Heisman winners such as Tim Tebow and Johnny Manziel faced a lot of criticism for their NFL QB play, but neither of them ever played in the NFL at an MVP level.  The only other joint winner I can think of would be Cam Newton (Heisman 2010, MVP 2015).  By the time Newton won MVP, he was an established player with 5 seasons and 3 probowls under his belt, and any arguments about the sustainability of his playing style were quenched to a low simmer (although, not removed).  Newton had also demonstrated himself to be a more efficient and prolific passer at Auburn before entering the NFL.

 

So anyway: the straightforward and aboveboard reasons to be skeptical of Jackson's longevity as a QB would be that previous QB who ran a lot such as Griffin had their career derailed by injury.  But then, so did Sam Bradford, whom no one has ever accused of being mobile.  The straightforward and aboveboard reasons to be skeptical of Jackson's abilities as a QB would be that he was not an efficient passer in college, with his best completion 59% and some manifest problems in technique.  But of course, the same criticism would apply to Josh Allen, whose running style and size (IMO) makes him more of an injury risk, and Jackson has improved his efficiency to a level that Allen has not yet reached.
 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

So you're of the thought that we don't have the right staff in place for Allen's development?

 

It's well documented yes

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Wrong thread!!!

I'm shocked that Hapless knew the words to that song and that band. He seems like more of a Bette Midler/Tina Turner type person

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

I'm shocked that Hapless knew the words to that song and that band. He seems like more of a Bette Midler/Tina Turner type person

 

! ??

 

Tina Turner: Dope, man

Bette Midler: {shudder} Srlsy, Man?

Johann Sebastian Bach:  THE MAN

 

PS: Love me some Josh Allen but having Bieber as his favorite artist is an undeniable blot on an admirable-seeming character

[Formerly Allan in MD]

14 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

You could say that about most any good young athlete.

[C.Biscuit97]

36 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think there are possibly components of what's known as "implicit bias", where people channel their subconscious or unacknowledged prejudices into socially acceptable expressions.    I'm trying to think if there has actually been a young white QB who won both NFL MVP early in his career and a Heisman and I can't think of one.  You?   So we can speculate, but we can't really "do the experiment"  I do think there was implicit bias at work when some pundits suggested Jackson should convert to WR or RB, despite the fact that Jackson actually threw a similar number of passes for similar yardage as Josh Rosen Jr year.

Certainly young white Heisman winners such as Tim Tebow and Johnny Manziel faced a lot of criticism for their NFL QB play, but neither of them ever played in the NFL at an MVP level.  The only other joint winner I can think of would be Cam Newton (Heisman 2010, MVP 2015).  By the time Newton won MVP, he was an established player with 5 seasons and 3 probowls under his belt, and any arguments about the sustainability of his playing style were quenched to a low simmer (although, not removed).  Newton had also demonstrated himself to be a more efficient and prolific passer at Auburn before entering the NFL.

 

So anyway: the straightforward and aboveboard reasons to be skeptical of Jackson's longevity as a QB would be that previous QB who ran a lot such as Griffin had their career derailed by injury.  But then, so did Sam Bradford, whom no one has ever accused of being mobile.  The straightforward and aboveboard reasons to be skeptical of Jackson's abilities as a QB would be that he was not an efficient passer in college, with his best completion 59% and some manifest problems in technique.  But of course, the same criticism would apply to Josh Allen, whose running style and size (IMO) makes him more of an injury risk, and Jackson has improved his efficiency to a level that Allen has not yet reached.
 

Excellent post. I have zero disagreement. 

[Orlando Tim]

9 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

how did ‘because you’re a Bills fan’ not make this list? 

Because I assumed you already knew that!?

2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

This is just a blatantly racist original post. If anything you should have the exact opposite take. Jackson has been a better passer by far and Allen has relied on his athleticism not his passing to win many games. 

The take should be that even if Jackson loses some athletic ability he can still be a great QB with a 6:1 TD:INT ratio and QB rating over 110. Followed by Allen improved from year 1 to year 2 and if he does the Bill's will be fine at QB. But he has a long way to go as we all saw in the Houston game. 

What? A racist post? Seriously dude what is wrong with you.

[Reed83HOF]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

! ??

 

Tina Turner: Dope, man

Bette Midler: {shudder} Srlsy, Man?

Johann Sebastian:  THE MAN

 

PS: Love me some Josh Allen but having Bieber as his favorite artist is an undeniable blot on an admirable-seeming character

I couldn't help it dude! TBH, wasn't sure that I saw you as a Motely fan and then it just seemed like fun to mess with you LOL! 

[Orlando Tim]

11 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Fair points but you do realize Jackson played in a pro style system in college?

 

again my point isn’t to crap on Allen.  I just don’t understand why people out so quick to discredit Jackson.  Maybe he is just a good qb.  Dude has one of the best resumes of any 2nd year qb of all time. 

You ask a good question about why I discredit a dude who just justifiably won MVP. I think his unreal athleticism will slip quickly- and when he can not run like Barry it will cause him to have issues. I have many examples, but if his athleticism stays he might be one for the ages.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

You ask a good question about why I discredit a dude who just justifiably won MVP. I think his unreal athleticism will slip quickly- and when he can not run like Barry it will cause him to have issues. I have many examples, but if his athleticism stays he might be one for the ages.

 

I understand your viewpoint. 

Counterpoints:

1) elite RBs who take care of their bodies are now playing at pretty durn elite levels into their late 20's/30s - McCoy, Ingram, AP, etc.

2) at present, Lamar Jackson's package as a QB is elite athleticism (running, extending plays) coupled with efficient passing that has some limitations.

 

It is entirely possible that, just as we hope Allen will develop as a passer and overcome some of his limitations, Jackson may also develop as a passer and overcome his limitations.

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's well documented yes

 

I don't disagree.

[1ManRaid]

I thought this was going to be about how Lamar got exposed by the Bills and Titans, and how the rest of the league was going to catch on like they did against the Wildcat.

 

Rather it's just "in an undetermined number of years, Lamar isn't going to run as fast so he'll be a trash QB and make no progress as a passer" while assuming our running QB does make progress.

 

You outta be hired in the scouting department!

[Madbillsfan]

15 hours ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I truly think the Bills intentionally put Josh into some tough spots this year and he grew during them. They did not give him the big reciever as a security blanket, he had only small precise recievers which forced him to be more accurate. They called plays that were not one read plays but required him to make decisions during plays, forcing him to grow mentally. Lastly I think he learns best on the field and his playing time is a big help.

   Why I think Jackson is not as viable long term is his offense was already tailor made for him and once his athleticism slips at all he will have issues being more traditional.

So well thought out. All these excuses for JA’s non success and 1 great reason for LJ’s non failure. 

[Jay_Fixit]

16 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

Jackson is now a proven commodity, Josh isn't. Lamar might not last from injury, Allen might not because of ability to throw.

 

Vick could have played 8 years at a high level, we'll learn about Jackson but he's already viable, a freaking monster on the football field. If Josh can learn to make the right throws he'll be more viable, but the same could be said of Jackson. Jackson has shown more with his arm than Allen.

 

Jackson showed more in the 1st 2 games of 2019 than any of Josh's games. The 1st with his arm and 2nd with both arm and legs.

Vick was less accurate than Josh is and I’m not sure Jackson is any more accurate.. 

 

Ability to throw? LOL.

 

Josh’s decision making and mechanics are his issue.