Buzzergate update (Again) Update: Beltran, Cora, Hinch & Luhnow (fired) for illegale sign stealing - compare to NFL & The Patsies

[Reed83HOF]

11 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I played in college and we changed signs every 3 innings.

Watch near the end of this video when they talk about the signs and decoding them - apparently a phone app exists for it and the buzzer can be buzzed via bluetooth

21 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

Say it ain’t so

Tough to say what's real and what isn't but it looks like a lot of players are fed up and this thing is bubbling over. I am sure some is just internet BS - hard to tell real vs not right at this moment

[Royale with Cheese]

1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said:

Watch near the end of this video when they talk about the signs and decoding them - apparently a phone app exists for it and the buzzer can be buzzed via bluetooth

This is insane!  

[chongli]

Jessica Mendoza of the Mets and ESPN should be the next one fired:

 

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/01/16/jessica-mendoza-calls-out-mike-fiers-for-exposing-astros-cheating

[Rc2catch]

2 minutes ago, chongli said:

Jessica Mendoza of the Mets and ESPN should be the next one fired:

 

https://www.si.com/extra-mustard/2020/01/16/jessica-mendoza-calls-out-mike-fiers-for-exposing-astros-cheating

Why should she be fired? 
Is it not dirty Fiers played for them, boosted his value, then made the issue public after he left. If it was so important to him why not make it public while you’re on the team? After the game during interview time say “I’m not going to continue playing for a team that cheats” 

He profited from it, then when it was convenient blew the whistle and made the whole thing public. He’s just as guilty for participating and then protecting it isn’t he? 

[ALgators]

Makes you wonder if any QB use something similar to this to signal a blind side sack is coming. Could be very useful for a qb

[chongli]

10 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

Why should she be fired? 
Is it not dirty Fiers played for them, boosted his value, then made the issue public after he left. If it was so important to him why not make it public while you’re on the team? After the game during interview time say “I’m not going to continue playing for a team that cheats” 

He profited from it, then when it was convenient blew the whistle and made the whole thing public. He’s just as guilty for participating and then protecting it isn’t he? 

 

Yeah, definitely, Fiers is guilty. And so is Mendoza. This is what she said:

 

"But to go public, it didn't sit well with me. It made me sad for the sport that that's how all this got found out. This wasn't something that MLB naturally investigated or that even other teams complained about it because they naturally heard about and then investigations happen. It came from within. It was a player that was a part of it. That benefitted [sic] from it during the regular season when he was a part of that team. ... It's something you don't do. I totally get telling your future teammates, helping them win, letting people know. But to go public with it and all them out, it's hard to swallow."

 

She blamed Fiers for exposing the cheating!

[BuffaloBill963]

52 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Post them.

Already posted 

[Rc2catch]

3 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

Yeah, definitely, Fiers is guilty. And so is Mendoza. This is what she said:

 

"But to go public, it didn't sit well with me. It made me sad for the sport that that's how all this got found out. This wasn't something that MLB naturally investigated or that even other teams complained about it because they naturally heard about and then investigations happen. It came from within. It was a player that was a part of it. That benefitted [sic] from it during the regular season when he was a part of that team. ... It's something you don't do. I totally get telling your future teammates, helping them win, letting people know. But to go public with it and all them out, it's hard to swallow."

 

She blamed Fiers for exposing the cheating!

I read it, I just don’t see the harm in what she said. It’s not because the truth was found out. 
It’s because he didn’t have a problem with it when he was on the team, and because he went public with it when he should of let the league handle it. He could of told his story to MLB and let them do what they need to do. 
Maybe he did and they didn’t take it serious, either way he’s not the one to say anything because he profited off of it and for all we know was a part of it. Wasn’t his place to tell the world. If he wanted to be the one to tell the world he should of done it while he was playing there. 

[BuffaloBill963]

48 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

This is cheating. But I don’t think it’s half as bad as it’s being made out to be. Don’t teams change up signals throughout the game? 
Especially when there’s rumors of sign stealing. And even if you know the curveball is coming it’s still not easy to hit. Pitchers don’t always hit their spot. 
I get why it’s dirty I just think it’s being overblown. 
In the grand scheme of sport I think the Pats stuff is much much worse. 
People are talking banning players for life and vacating the World Series title and this being worse than Pete rose, maybe I’m missing some of the story. 

So you think once they changed signals the new signals weren’t quickly decided and the updated info relayed as quickly as possible to the players? 

[SinceThe70s]

Page 12 of 12  

11 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

Yeah, definitely, Fiers is guilty. And so is Mendoza. This is what she said:

 

"But to go public, it didn't sit well with me. It made me sad for the sport that that's how all this got found out. This wasn't something that MLB naturally investigated or that even other teams complained about it because they naturally heard about and then investigations happen. It came from within. It was a player that was a part of it. That benefitted [sic] from it during the regular season when he was a part of that team. ... It's something you don't do. I totally get telling your future teammates, helping them win, letting people know. But to go public with it and all them out, it's hard to swallow."

 

She blamed Fiers for exposing the cheating!

 

I heard that she clarified her comments later claiming she thought Fiers should have exposed it through 'proper channels', i.e - the team and/or MLB instead of through the Athletic. Which is kind of dumb because how would she know that he didn't do just that only to have it get buried. Wouldn't be the first time a major sport squelched a cheating scandal.

 

Also very sketchy that she made any public comment since she's employed by the Mets.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by SinceThe70s

[Rc2catch]

10 minutes ago, BuffaloBill963 said:

So you think once they changed signals the new signals weren’t quickly decided and the updated info relayed as quickly as possible to the players? 

It’s possible. Still gotta be able to hit that pitch though. 
I’m not trying to give anyone a pass over it, just think it’s being made into a much bigger deal than it is. 

[Greybeard]

1 hour ago, Rc2catch said:

This is cheating. But I don’t think it’s half as bad as it’s being made out to be. Don’t teams change up signals throughout the game? 
Especially when there’s rumors of sign stealing. And even if you know the curveball is coming it’s still not easy to hit. Pitchers don’t always hit their spot. 
I get why it’s dirty I just think it’s being overblown. 
In the grand scheme of sport I think the Pats stuff is much much worse. 
People are talking banning players for life and vacating the World Series title and this being worse than Pete rose, maybe I’m missing some of the story. 

               There are hitters that can't hit a curve but kill fastballs.   Others can't hit a fastball but kill a curve.    Knowing what is coming is a great advantage.   

               I have always hated Pete Rose's attitude about his scandal, but what Pete did never affected the outcome of a game.  In my mind what he did is insignificant when compared to using electronic means to call pitches.    If they could ban Pete for what he did, the others should receive the same treatment.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Greybeard

[Golden Goat]

 

[Rc2catch]

5 minutes ago, Greybeard said:

               There are hitters that can't hit a curve but kill fastballs.   Others can't hit a fastball but kill a curve.    Knowing what is coming is a great advantage.   

               I have always hated Pete Rose's attitude about his scandal, but what Pete did never affected the outcome of a game.  In my mind what he did is insignificant when compared to using electronic means to call pitches.    If they could ban Pete for what he did, the others should receive the same treatment.

I agree there’s advantages to it. But every team tries to steal signs. Maybe Houston is the only ones going digital, but baseball is going to have to figure that out before they start banning people. Cause they may end up banning quite a lot of big name players. 
Also if I have read correctly managers are not protected that’s why they can act quickly on front office personnel, if they want to go after players they’ll be battling the union and that can literally kill the whole game. 

[Reed83HOF]

29 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

I read it, I just don’t see the harm in what she said. It’s not because the truth was found out. 
It’s because he didn’t have a problem with it when he was on the team, and because he went public with it when he should of let the league handle it. He could of told his story to MLB and let them do what they need to do. 
Maybe he did and they didn’t take it serious, either way he’s not the one to say anything because he profited off of it and for all we know was a part of it. Wasn’t his place to tell the world. If he wanted to be the one to tell the world he should of done it while he was playing there. 

 

 

[NobesBLO13]

34 minutes ago, Rc2catch said:

It’s possible. Still gotta be able to hit that pitch though. 
I’m not trying to give anyone a pass over it, just think it’s being made into a much bigger deal than it is. 

I don’t agree with the still have to hit the pitch point. A huge part of being a big league hitter is recognizing pitches by spin, or making educated guesses based on pitch count, pitcher tendencies, etc.

At that level most hitters can put bat to ball if they know exactly what’s coming.

If this was valid why have signs at all? Just tell all batters what’s coming.

[Gugny]

2 hours ago, snafu said:

 

Or 2018, and I'm a Sox fan.

I feel like sewing an * on my hat.

 

 

 

 

My boss is an avid Sox fan and he feels the exact same way you do.

[Rc2catch]

4 minutes ago, NobesBLO13 said:

I don’t agree with the still have to hit the pitch point. A huge part of being a big league hitter is recognizing pitches by spin, or making educated guesses based on pitch count, pitcher tendencies, etc.

At that level most hitters can put bat to ball if they know exactly what’s coming.

If this was valid why have signs at all? Just tell all batters what’s coming.

I get it, not trying to justify what happened was ok or not an advantage. Other teams get  signs as well. Don’t know if they have gone digital as I stated before but all teams are trying to steal signs every game. It’s literally tradition in baseball. I’m not sure how often this strategy of theirs was used, but it’s not like their numbers were super juiced up. 
I would fully agree it’s an advantage over other teams though, if the other team has not decoded your signs 

[4merper4mer]

24 minutes ago, NobesBLO13 said:

I don’t agree with the still have to hit the pitch point. A huge part of being a big league hitter is recognizing pitches by spin, or making educated guesses based on pitch count, pitcher tendencies, etc.

At that level most hitters can put bat to ball if they know exactly what’s coming.

If this was valid why have signs at all? Just tell all batters what’s coming.

When baseball is played at its highest level it is a damn near perfect sport.  It is so balanced between offense and defense that the slightest variation can make a huge difference.  This BS robs from that balance because the offense employs resources simply not available to the defense.  A guy leading off second and trying to signal the batter is one thing and a batter sneaking a peak is another.  They can be combatted.  This crap can't be.  

 

And its its really not all that different from what the Patriots are still doing.

[Reed83HOF]

1 hour ago, Rc2catch said:

I get it, not trying to justify what happened was ok or not an advantage. Other teams get  signs as well. Don’t know if they have gone digital as I stated before but all teams are trying to steal signs every game. It’s literally tradition in baseball. I’m not sure how often this strategy of theirs was used, but it’s not like their numbers were super juiced up. 
I would fully agree it’s an advantage over other teams though, if the other team has not decoded your signs 

 

 

They were super juiced. There is a huge difference in knowing if a fastball is coming or if it is an off speed pitch. For instance:
 

 

[Gugny]

35 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

They were super juiced. There is a huge difference in knowing if a fastball is coming or if it is an off speed pitch. For instance:
 

 

 

This World Series Championship should be vacated.  No winner.  And every single player who is proven to have cheated using technology should be banned for life.  To me, it's that simple.  They're all ***** scumbags who have no respect for the game.

[Reed83HOF]

25 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

This World Series Championship should be vacated.  No winner.  And every single player who is proven to have cheated using technology should be banned for life.  To me, it's that simple.  They're all ***** scumbags who have no respect for the game.

It's awful

[TheFunPolice]

This makes me think Brady wears a buzzer and Ernie Adams buzzes him when the defense gets too close or some other code they have 

 

Sometimes when a player seems to know everything that is going to happen it is too good to be true

[Franco_92]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBill963 said:

But there are pictures of other players w the same patch BEFORE celebration and confetti started. 

You’re the reason why people get away w stuff like this?

Get away with robot wired buzzing cheater....KNEE BRACES ? 

 

I mean come on people just throw ***** at the wall and expect us to treat it identically to how we look at spygate

 

It's ***** rampant in every pats thread on this board and makes us look like a bunch of mouth-breathing lunatics 

Edited January 17, 2020 by arcane

[Gugny]

8 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

It's awful

 

When Hinch was fired, my initial reaction was that it was harsh.  But I've had some time to give it thought and digest it.  This is WAY worse than what Pete Rose did.  Nothing Rose did affected the outcome of games, let alone World Series games.  This is on the level of the Black Sox.  Anyone and everyone associated should be banned for life.  I applaud MLB for handling it the way they are.  The message needs to be loud and clear.  This isn't a spitball.  This isn't too much pine tar on a bat.  This isn't a baserunner stealing signs and tipping off a batter.  The technology aspect of it puts it an on entirely different level.

[PromoTheRobot]

5 hours ago, arcane said:

No, most likely something on his chest or something. But that wouldn't really help in football, as things get hopelessly complicated quick. If you were looking for a QB having an unfair in-play advantage, it'd essentially HAVE to be a radio set that doesn't shut of when it's supposed to. There's nothing funky on his legs lol

I don't respect the Pats and think they're shadier than any other NFL franchises, all the other ones combined in fact. But I constantly dispute this stuff because Bills fans go so far into the abyss to try and pin stuff on them, that it gets hard to sift through the garbage takes and actually take the SERIOUS stuff seriously. It's embarrassing honestly 

 

Seriously, why give the Pats a pass? The Pats did at least what the Astros did...over 20 years. They deserve scorn 

[snafu]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

It's ***** rampant in every pats thread on this board and makes us look like a bunch of mouth-breathing lunatics 

 

I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but I AM a mouth breathing lunatic.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

 

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

 

Not to mention, he's not choking up on the bat.  99.9% of the time a 5'1" batter would be choking up on a guy who throws gas.

 

[Reed83HOF]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

When Hinch was fired, my initial reaction was that it was harsh.  But I've had some time to give it thought and digest it.  This is WAY worse than what Pete Rose did.  Nothing Rose did affected the outcome of games, let alone World Series games.  This is on the level of the Black Sox.  Anyone and everyone associated should be banned for life.  I applaud MLB for handling it the way they are.  The message needs to be loud and clear.  This isn't a spitball.  This isn't too much pine tar on a bat.  This isn't a baserunner stealing signs and tipping off a batter.  The technology aspect of it puts it an on entirely different level.

My initial reaction was that it was good to see management get the boot - either the captain is letting the fools run the ship (which indicates he needs to go) or he was in on it and didn't give a sh!t (which also indicates he needs to go). There is no way the GM was unaware and it occurred under his watch in charge of of the team; so goodbye to him. I also don't think there is no way the owner didn't know - it was in their WS video. I can't picture an owner being that aloof - sorry don't buy it. Draft picks are nice and all, but they still are a talented team (cheating aside) and those will be later round picks. I think there should have been a forfeit of title, the $$ they made off it and a couple year post season ban.

 

Cora and Beltran obviously had to go, with the Wilpons being so damn cheap - it had to be especially  hard for them to do this. I expect the Red Sox to get punished even more than the Astericks because they were caught once, got the slap on the wrist and the law was formally laid down by Manfred. That is just the nature of getting caught a second time.

 

Now for the players, I struggled here a little bit. Manfred wanted the full truth and granted immunity for it, most likely so baseball itself could understand what methods were being deployed and they can come up with a long term strategy to eliminate it (better communication signals for players, most likely electronic in nature - although some team will work to intercept or jam said devices - I will say a Boston team will do this first for obvious reasons). I would say this is the most obvious and hopeful way of looking at it. Looking at it the other way, the cheating is so wide spread throughout the league - too many names and teams will be affected and the game would be irreparably harmed. Also if players are banned or a world series is taken away - how to do handle awards - does Judge get the 2017 MVP or do you leave it vacated? Decisions like this would need to be made. So in that aspect I kinda can understand where Manfred was coming from, especially with 2 teams involved in cheating scandals. If it was Houston alone, that entire franchise could easily have taken the full brunt of it. The Red Sox make it more difficult because 20117 & 2018 were under 2 different sets of leadership and paints the picture of this being wide-spread.

 

This is far worse than PEDs, because those who used steroids still had to play the game; knowing if the pitch is a fastball or an offspeed pitch is incredibly useful for a player - simply look at the home & away stats for the Asterisks. This is on the level of the 1919 Black Sox and Pete Rose looks like a saint. In the 2019 video alone, Altuve should be shelved for life - it is clear as ***** day. I don't see the 2019 stuff going away and I am curious as to how they try to rectify it seeing they said they couldn't find anything, they will most likely have to go back and re-open that part of the investigation, if the players did not tell the truth. If the players did fess up, most likely as part of their agreement for fessing up, MLB will leave it alone. There should be more blood on the player level to drive this point home IMO - the only reason this didn't happen was becuase that player would spill the beans and baseball would plummet.

 

Also don't forget, there are allegations around the league (Trevor Bauer's twitter for instance) that Houston pitchers cheat to up their spin rates over what it normally is.

 

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

and he says "I have a device on...no" twice before he is mobbed by his teammates and quickly runs into the clubhouse to change his shirt while the rest of the team is celebrating. At first me and a guy from work thought this was photo shopped because we didn't notice in the video, sure enough it is there plain as day

[Reed83HOF]

8 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

Not to mention, he's not choking up on the bat.  99.9% of the time a 5'1" batter would be choking up on a guy who throws gas.

 

Chapman should have leveled him. I was watching a clip from Yes on twitter (it is in here) with Michael Kay and Jomboy - apparently Chapman is the only player who refused to change his signs up and Tanaka was doing it every 3 pitches. So when Chapman gave up the HR, his smirk that pissed everyone off was most likely because he knew he should have changed his sign, but refused to...he got caught

[Franco_92]

28 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Seriously, why give the Pats a pass? The Pats did at least what the Astros did...over 20 years. They deserve scorn 

I'm not giving the Pats a pass. I am wondering why people like you, in this discussion, are siding with the guy that literally googled a picture of Tom Brady and made up a story on the spot about his knee brace.

 

this actively makes it harder to be taken seriously going after the pats for stuff they actually do.

 

And whenever I point out that too many posters pull stuff out of their ass and stray far from the plane of reality in talking about what are actually serious issues, I get a million quotes that effectively say "ur wrong Pats bad" and nobody notices that knee brace guy is a loon making the collective fan base look dumber and actively hurting the cause that is taking the pats' skeeviness seriously.

Edited January 17, 2020 by arcane

[Reed83HOF]

also don't forget about this bullshittery

 

 

 

[Success]

They say cheaters never win, and winners never cheat - but those things are wrong.  It's like when Newt asks Ripley why parents tell their kids there aren't monsters, when there are.

 

Cheaters DO win.  This saddens me.

 

[BuffaloBill963]

2 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

This makes me think Brady wears a buzzer and Ernie Adams buzzes him when the defense gets too close or some other code they have 

 

Sometimes when a player seems to know everything that is going to happen it is too good to be true

I guarantee their system is similar to what you described. Flutie outted them

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I'm not giving the Pats a pass. I am wondering why people like you, in this discussion, are siding with the guy that literally googled a picture of Tom Brady and made up a story on the spot about his knee brace.

 

this actively makes it harder to be taken seriously going after the pats for stuff they actually do.

 

And whenever I point out that too many posters pull stuff out of their ass and stray far from the plane of reality in talking about what are actually serious issues, I get a million quotes that effectively say "ur wrong Pats bad" and nobody notices that knee brace guy is a loon making the collective fan base look dumber and actively hurting the cause that is taking the pats' skeeviness seriously.

You’re not the authority on the ‘plane of reality’ buddy that’s what’s so annoying about people like you. You don’t decide what’s crazy and what’s not. It’s called following the evidence and that includes brainstorming theories. That helps get to the truth. 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

They steal signs anyway so who cares

 

 

[BringMetheHeadofLeonLett]

Lifelong Dodgers fan here, going back to Sax, Garvey, Cey, Sutton, Yeager, John, Lopes, Monday, Baker,  Fernando freakin Valuenzuela, Scioscia, Guerrero, Howe, et al...

 

and to all y'all, who farking cares.  The '88 Dodgers are enough to carry any fan through a lifetime-  yes, my team is ETERNALLY cooler than yours!

 

Let the Astros and BoSox have their playtime.  Those teams needed a good thumb-sucking, and they got it.   Congrats to them both on their victories.  

 

 

Limited sarcasm aside, I've watched so much of Kershaw's career, and he didn't look any different in the post-season.  I never once lost faith in his abilities, and not just from being a fan, he just always looked like exactly the same pitcher.  I couldn't understand any of it, then I'd go right back to hoping he'd come in in any clutch situation... and he'd get shelled again.  This crap explains a lot.  

[Royale with Cheese]

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Not to mention, he's not choking up on the bat.  99.9% of the time a 5'1" batter would be choking up on a guy who throws gas.

 

Not true.  Choking up is a preference.  I never choked up because I didn’t like the feel.  

[May Day 10]

7 hours ago, arcane said:

I'm not giving the Pats a pass. I am wondering why people like you, in this discussion, are siding with the guy that literally googled a picture of Tom Brady and made up a story on the spot about his knee brace.

 

this actively makes it harder to be taken seriously going after the pats for stuff they actually do.

 

And whenever I point out that too many posters pull stuff out of their ass and stray far from the plane of reality in talking about what are actually serious issues, I get a million quotes that effectively say "ur wrong Pats bad" and nobody notices that knee brace guy is a loon making the collective fan base look dumber and actively hurting the cause that is taking the pats' skeeviness seriously.

 

In fairness to me, i did not come up with it.  I have a good friend who has been howling this at the moon for years and we kind of laugh him off.  I never even mentioned it in the hundreds of anti-patriots threads.  Yesterday I did a 180 on my friend's theory.  

 

The Astros and Patriots are very similar, and I said so long before the cheating allegations surfaced.  There is a lot to admire.  Every organizational detail is geared toward winning and in many ways they have altered their leagues/sports.  Unfortunately, with this they push the line as far as possible to gain an as advantage, whether its creating a system to optimize psi on footballs, espionage, or live communication.

 

I do not think it is crazy to think brady has a buzzer of some sort to alert him of pressure, blitz, where the safety goes, etc.  The guy "guesses" and has guessed right with uncanny ability.  Him and Edelman were like 42-1 at home before the miami game.  That doesnt happen in the NFL, and Brady/Edelman are far from Curry and Durant.

 

It has always been written off that Brady "prepares".  I cant buy that.  Nobody else does?

 

[4merper4mer]

It's only a side note but there has to be a story about the road team winning all 7 WS games this year.